It is difficult for me to engage on these political articles... here's why...

Mark Meadows, the chief of staff for the last president , first ran for Congress in 2012.  One of Meadows regular applause and cheer getters on the campaign trail was when he told his crowds that if he was elected he was going to send Barack Obama (then president of the United States) back to Africa. 

Its been quite a while since American politics has fallen into the parameters that you prefer. 

I'm sure it is a loss, but sweet talk is not going to work at this point either. 

I'm not asking for "sweet talk"...

I am asking for a genuine effort at empathy...
I don't believe I have to necessarily agree in order to look at an idea from the perspective of those with whom I disagree.

And one more thing...

I have often heard something like, "If I make an effort to empathize or understand, that doesn't mean the other side will do the same for me."

Very true! You may not get any sort of reciprocation. If you approach an effort to empathize with the underlying goal of turning the other side to your side, you have failed before you have even begun. The objective should be to learn... nothing more.

sweet talk is not going to work at this point either

I think liberals and progressives have always had to compromise from the very start because the cultures they are born into have always been run by conservatives, the old guard, the status quo.

Conservative: adjective - averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.

Slowly and often painfully, over time, liberals and progressives have exposed the cancerous corruption and inequality of conservatives, chipping away at the status quo, supporting change and innovation, letting go of archaic and abusive traditional values through decades, even centuries of compromise. And occasionally it comes to a head, like when they overcame slavery. But of course that was a short lived win because within a decade the conservatives were back in charge of large swaths of America desperate to reinstitute their conservative values, their traditions, their prejudices.

With each generation liberals and progressives chip away at those conservative values. They succeeded in securing women's right to vote, black Americans right to vote, interracial couples the right to marry, gay couples the right to marry, all against the status quo of conservative values that conservatives were desperately trying to preserve. I see each of those steps as huge wins for liberals and progressives, but the fact is conservatives had been 'winning' at defending their status quo for centuries, far longer than we've been able to enjoy our progress. That's because to conservatives 'compromise' is a dirty word, it means giving up some traditional value they hold dear while for liberals and progressives compromise is the only way to achieve change, to move forward, which is why it has been such a slow struggle.

Today, conservatives now feel the white conservative Christian-centric traditional values they hold so dear are continually under threat which is why they are again buckling down and refusing to compromise. Anyone who doesn't share their conservative values are "the devil" and compromising with "the devil" isn't an option for them. So they double down on their hate of those trying to push forward change, those supporting diversity, those highlighting the victims of their conservative values. But is the answer liberals and progressives to just give up trying to make this "a more perfect union" as our founders intended? Do we just accept the label conservatives have given us and accept the stain of conservative values? Do we keep silent as the victims of those values continue to pile up?

If conservatives refuse to compromise then there is only one possible eventuality which is that liberals and progressives eventually stop compromising and the two confront each other and fight for the soul of America as they have done many times throughout our history. It feels like we have once again reached a point where liberals and progressives are tired of compromising with conservatives who have always refused to compromise unless they're forced to.

The last President inspired those conservatives praising them for their unwillingness to compromise, who called admitting ones faults a weakness, who championed the conservative value of might (and white) makes right and pushed for an 'America First' policy which, in their minds that believe only right wing conservative Christians are 'Americans', means 'right wing white conservative Christians First'. If liberals and progressives back down now and compromise it will just elongate freedom loving, diversity loving Americans suffering.

If liberals and progressives back down now and compromise

By definition, compromise means each side gets some but not all of what they want. It does not mean one side acquiesces to the wishes of the other.

But with republicans and alleged conservatives these days - it's their way or NO WAY.  

But with republicans and alleged conservatives these days - it's their way or NO WAY.  

The same can be said from the populist progressive wing. The whole Manchin and Sinema "DINO" bullshit is just one example.

I have to agree with you here. So they are fiscally conservative Democrats! I like those. I vote Democrat mostly because of social issues, but show me a moderate Republican who can at least compromise with the Democrats and I will probably vote for him or her.

I agree to disagree.  

I don't see calling them DINOs as bullshit.  But again, I agree to disagree.  

I agree to disagree.  

  No worries. 

Mark Meadows, the chief of staff for the last president , first ran for Congress in 2012.  One of Meadows regular applause and cheer getters on the campaign trail was when he told his crowds that if he was elected he was going to send Barack Obama (then president of the United States) back to Africa. 

The perfect comeback would be if Meadows does end up in prison, Obama sending him a note that says....Well, it's not Africa, but enjoy your stay.

no worries mm, find your own happy place here. I recommend amac's art group.

Hear, hear!!!  

no worries mm, find your own happy place here. I recommend amac's art group.

I have to agree with Dev. It is where we all can find something to share.

I recommend amac's art group.

I remember that on the Vine too... The good old days... :o)

Now you made me think of Vlad. I miss him.

I would recommend that you comment on politics in any way that you like, and then hope for the best. We would like to hear your views MM.

I find the political vitriol to be entertaining.  It's hilarious to watch people fling poop at each other.

I remember a long interview with John Boehner when he was still the Speaker of the House and Obama was the president.  He refused to even say the word compromise.  At that time the Senate Majority Leader was Mitch McConnell.  His stated objective was to make Obama "a one term president".  I think that was the beginning of extreme partisan politics.  It turned Congress into a stone wall.

I find the political vitriol to be entertaining.

Well, I am glad you get "entertainment" out of it...

Saying and hearing the same things over and over for years, gets kinda boring for me.
I came to the Vine and subsequently NT to find common ground... and most importantly, to learn things... especially about those who have different ideas than I have.
I gotta say, I find it hard see how I will learn anything I don't already know in the midst of a perpetual food fight.

I blame my grandparents. they claimed they killed all the fascists 75 years ago...

What happens here is merely a symptom of the plague that has enveloped the American political scene. I tried for a couple of years to get dialogue going, but the other side really has no ability to such a thing.

I now just say my piece and mostly let it lie. I have tried to goad some people into thinking, but it is difficult when they are not used to it.

Steve, I still enjoy what you have to say, so keep that in mind!

I will and always have. Just that circumstances have rather limited my ability to get here. But hopefully I'm back for a while.

Over time that devolved into the same kind of hateful unproductive rhetoric I see here on NT these days. There is very little effort to find compromise or to “walk in the others shoes.” It is pretty sad… and to be perfectly honest, boring as hell. What a shame!

You're not wrong.  

We have a lot of identity politics going on here, which quite frankly is just people substituting political affiliation as their religion.  They view other people are right/wrong or good/evil simply because of what political team they cheer for.  It's convenient, but it's both stupid and lazy.

Undoing that requires intellectual effort, which many people simply aren't willing to put forth.  It also means that they run the risk of finding out something they're very committed to emotionally doesn't actually make much sense.

Jack,

Whether we agree or disagree, I find what you have to say as relevant. You actually take the time to answer with a full thought and thoughtfulness. I appreciate that.

stupid and lazy

You thoroughly and completely summarized my feelings in just two words...

BRAVO!!!!

When I first started on these types of forums, I was naive enough to believe that if I invested the time to research, review and post facts about the topic, it would cause members to THINK and even perhaps incorporate those facts into their positions. 

I was sadly mistaken. I've come to the conclusion that there are all too many that NEED to believe 'alternative facts, or at least pretend they do, in order to continue in the mindset they have chosen to adopt.

They've invested quite a bit, steeping themselves in those 'alternative facts' and they've fallen into an abyss of an alternative reality. So many come here, post seeds from that originate in that alternative reality, with no intention or desire to discuss the validity of the content or concept. They seem to think that just 'getting it out there' allows them to get their 'I owned the libs today' star. It's an intellectually bankrupt muck that they wallow in and they want to drag everyone else into.

I'm not talking about real and tangible 'differences of opinion', those would both be based on divergent facts that can be debated. I am talking about shit that even they know is bullshit though they refuse to admit it. I can't count how many times, after I have posted facts, that members either walk away from a thread [or a whole seed] or deflect from the conversation to avoid admitting that they were wrong. They'd rather just move onto the next pile of crap to throw. 

As long as 'the other side' needs to predicate the conversation with easily refuted fabrication, I see no motivation for compromise. How does one compromise with someone who starts the negotiation by insisting that their lies are the outline for the 'treaty'? 

In all my long life I never saw, read or heard of people being banned from privately owned restaurants because of their political beliefs before.  Actually, with all the demonization of China these days, I'm surprised the Chinese restaurants in America don't all go bankrupt, and the Chinatowns aren't set on fire like "real" Americans used to do to them in the past.

that won't happen. their quick in-house delivery logistics predate anything available by decades

Hi MM,

Thanks for the very thoughtful article. It's true that way back when we met on the vine, there was many a good discussion, even if no conclusion was had. That being said, the very thing you are complaining about, was one of the reasons I left. I got gang banged and Mac got bullied and at least here, I can stop that from happening. 

On the other hand, people do have a very hard time listening to each other, and not vilifying them. That quote you gave, is not the totality of what is here in views. That being said, it is upsetting to know that it is for someone like you who comes here not so often, that that quote jumps out at you. 

Look you and I always got along terrifically, but our views are not always in sync. I can still talk to anyone here who wants to have a serious good discussion, and I know other members who feel the same way. Go read the latest from "thedoctorisinthehouse". I think you might find it interesting. It's part of a series of articles they are doing.

a very hard time listening to each other

Listening!!!! That is step ONE...

Step TWO... Making a sincere effort to try on a new idea. That doesn't mean adopting it... just try to have a little empathy... just for a minute or two...

You are very correct, Perrie... I am sure there is much more to be seen here than the intransigent acrimony I find so discouraging.

“You and your ideas are the spawn of Satan.”

Mine certainly are, that apple was delicious.

Now don't make me laugh when I am trying to be serious.

Hey Perrie,

I see a new feature that I don't understand... It is that little circled minus sign just to the left of the Thumbs up. I assume that is essentially a thumbs down... Is it???
If so, does it have any effect (like pulling the comment down) other than to being the lazy way of saying I disagree???

That little circle is to open or close a thread. It's so that pages load faster. 

Freshman Participates...

"FRESHMAN"... sheesh!!!! I may not be here very often... but this isn't exactly my first time around the block...

HARUMPH!!!!! [ Mal frowns... ]

LOL, that is based on how long you have been here and how much you participate. That freshmen needs to be updated, LOL! I'll get to that. The algorithm takes a bit after a long departure to update.

Comment more and you get to be "Old Woman Who Thinks She Knows it All"

"FRESHMAN"... sheesh!!!! I may not be here very often... but this isn't exactly my first time around the block...]

I hear ya brother saw that as well but understood it was a mod to the software and will catch up to itself... Look now your a "Professor Participates"!!! {chuckle}

Doesn't mean nothing, they will bash you no matter how often your here, or when you started, or if you were on NV, etc etc etc... There are some fun things going on here there is always Mac and pics, Buzz has a good setup on movie quizzes which is well worth checking out... And you can set up your own home group and block all that crap...

Been back myself just a few weeks now so I know what it feels like, same room, different furniture, same music just blared louder...

Good to see ya again...

PS: you see now I'm a "Sophmore" yep there are some people who will agree with that after adding a "ic" to the end of it...

[deleted]

Hey now, I've been stuck on Sophomoric Prince for well nigh a year and have been asking to be elevated to the exalted position of Sapphic Sadist. Alas TPTB merely chuckle ... they're not a nice bunch.

have you tried cutting and pasting your entire seed in the comment section or voting up all your own comments?

I tried the buttering-up approach with an online order but the Fed-X gal ate all the cupcakes.

Hi! Look, I have been around the block on NewsVine and NT non-stop. Through it all I am a "sweet" lovable, likeable (I hope) guy. It breaks my heart what I see going on in the political arena today. It even threatens to do the impossible-depress my spirit. Since Trump, I, a longtime spiritual person, have rediscovered 'cursing like a sailor.' Some may have noticed the change in my tone, my words and phrasing, my 'energy,'  and my patience with people who tell us in "abundance" to nicely go to hell with our plans for making diversity a beautiful thing in this country once and for all.

Now, we have people who talk to us like we are damn fools, use projection, astro-turf, lie to us, gaslight us (to our virtual faces), and when all else fails tell us they really did not mean any of the aforementioned tactics and strategies.

They mean it.

They come here (return from their other forum 'hide-outs") (NT) to bombast, ridicule, instigate, and deliver and unleash their newest bag of 'toxins' learned somewhere else with what I can only determine to be an attempt to TRASH this site or make it 'go out of fashion' because they have decided it is what they want for NT. I clearly see the 'passion-play' and its "irreconcilable differences" overlay.

Yes, I see this. And I am calling it out. When you tell someone 2+2=4 and it leads to a 'debate' or never-ending argument, or you tell a religious person - what the "Lord loves" and they won't see it or 'open' discourse to defend their own distinct truths but look for ways to slide by - that ain't a good-faith act or defense of what is good, right, or wholesome. 

It is willful, spiteful, mean-spirited, dirty, and even fatally flawed.

You see those persons right were they stand, exposed. As reprobates. People wanting what they want out of you while selfishly placing (and willing to slay or cause brutal damages) their own whims, rights, and privileges as such worthy of respect! While allowing truths to crater and decay.

"The Devil Is A Lie."

We have no choice! We have to stand our ground in the virtual sphere, because these others are going to tell the world they "own" us if we do not. And MM, that would be a lie straight out of hell. Why? Because we are 'owned' by the truth and if we shut it up inside and let lies flourish out in the open-unmolested even-then it is we who will burst wide open from the tensions we keep stuffed down inside!

I think you deny the truth in your willingness to condemn and demonize those with whom you disagree.

ridiculing and/or exploiting the ignorant is as old as mankind. need some present day examples?

Nah...you're example enough

I'd look for middle ground [deleted]

Yup - just decimate the comment.....

You are so right! I never engage in rants or arguments because nothing can be bridged if an entrenched person only wants to tear down another person or tear down another idea rather than actually give in or give up on a talking point when someone provides a genuine valid fact.

The same people who carried water by way of talking points, they did so for Bush and crew over every issue including the lie about WMD. The same people who carried water for every Republican candidate simply chanted the Republican party line nonsensical arguments for McCain, Palin, Romney and every single Republican no matter what.

They did the same for Trump and continue to do the same for an even worse array of people simply because they are Republicans.

No other thought gets through. You would think that after watching Republicans hand out tax cuts to the rich elite they would finally get a clue that nothing will ever be for their base. They lie knowing full well their base will support it even when the lies and policies are completely contradictory to previous positions and older talking points. 

Republicans are so callous and indifferent to their own voting base they are the ones who jumped on the no masks, no vaccine bandwagons and circled the wagons allowing their own base to die rather than about face within a time frame to save them.

Republicans are pushing gerrymandering, lies about elections to the point of death threats toward election workers who don't make the rules, they have gone so long simply changing the rules to suit them knowing that rich elites will flood the campaigns with money to overcome the true will of the people.

It will never make sense to trash Hollywood, celebrities and coastal elites and then elect Trump. It will never make sense that a proudly admittedly immoral man could find his way into their hearts and dupe them in a way that has decimated the Republican base voters with drastically higher death rates from Covid. No Republican even mentions Herman Cain or the host of politicians or right wing pundits, radio hosts, preachers and other prominent right wing voices silenced promoting Covid who are now dead, rather than promoting a high measure of protection from vaccines.

I don't hate the Republican base, I want them to live, I want them to get the vaccines, I want them to wear masks and survive, I want them to have healthcare, I want our government to work for the people and give money to them rather than the elites. 

Yet I know there is no saving them, there is no reasoning with them, there can be no arguing with them, there is no talking point to get through to a person who wishes harm or erasure of "liberals" or "Democrats". No facts convince them if they are programmed to rebut with a conspiracy or an "alternative fact" that is no fact at all.

So....you're implying that only Democrats/Progressives are without sin and are righteous and correct on every issue? 

Democrats have their problems. I don't like the far left who wants to tax and spend...tax and spend....give every body a monthly stipend, free college, and whatever loony idea they have today.

I don't like the far left who wants to tax and spend...

That's what Congress is supposed to do.  Tax and spend.

Republicans would rather borrow and spend.  That is "credit card" spending.  We still have to spend to cover their tax cuts, butt the interest makes the bill even higher.

Most of Biden's proposed spending is paid for by tax increases on the top 5% of taxpayers (some of whom do not pay taxes).

I don't have any credit cards (although I have a debit card).  I don't have a mortgage on any of my houses.  I paid cash for my cars.  That insulates me from paying interest so it saves money.  

Deficit spending costs the government more than "pay as you go".  Deficit spending only makes sense when the economy is in a recession.

Ok...now that you put it that way, tax and spend is the right way to do business. It's what they want to spend it on.

I really have no problem with reduced or free tuition to community colleges. I would rather that money go to students who want to learn a trade instead. This country needs more plumbers than it does lawyers. It also needs more RNs than it does doctors with high falutin' specialties

I would rather that money go to students who want to learn a trade instead.

I agree 100%.  Having a PhD in philosophy may make one a good bartender butt being proficient in a trade is excellent.

Our local community college has an emphasis on trades.  Their curriculum includes auto mechanics, HVAC, electronics, computer programming, typing/data entry and a plethora of useful courses.

The local university has some good stuff too butt I'm not sure having a degree in "Liberal Arts" is all that.

That's one of the things that I have always disagreed with when the cry goes out for free college for all. There are a lot of people who would be better off learning a trade that doesn't require a 4 year degree. Mechanics, computer techs, RNs, med techs, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, machine operators, masons and farmers. We need them ALL and we need to pay them ALL a living wage. 

MM, I have gotten to the point where I put many of the extremists on ignore because their comments mean nothing to me.  They are not thought provoking or discussion creating.  It became a name calling hell for me.  It made me someone I did not want to be.  Since they have been on ignore I have enjoyed discussions with people of all persuasions.  Jack is a good one to discuss things with - although we rarely agree on anything he never calls my belief system a work of the devil & for the most part he doesn't engage in the tit for tat we all get dragged into every once in a while.  I have always enjoyed your thoughts and hope to see you around more.

There are those who wish to write thoughtful comments and then there are those who predominantly write comments to irritate others through intellectually dishonest tactics or gratuitous snark.    The perfect site IMO is one with diverse views, debates (heated), but with comments that are (mostly) honest and thoughtful.

Unfortunately social media forums attract too many who get their kicks being obnoxious.    And worse, this tends to dissuade the thoughtful members.

One solution would be for thoughtful members to ignore^† the trolls and manage / participate in groups where thoughtful commentary can be largely free of the trolls.    We have a number of groups that work exceptionally well in this regard.

^† The IGNORE function hides the ignored member's comments in articles and omits their articles (if any) and comments from the front page as seen by the ignorer.