Rights for All, Responsibilities For No One: [Op-Ed]
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S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The conflict between Neil Young and Joe Rogan over the anti-vaccine propaganda Rogan spreads through his podcast triggered a heated debate over the boundaries of free speech on platforms like Spotify and whether one entertainer -- Young -- had the right to tell Spotify to drop another -- Rogan -- or he'd leave himself. But this clash was about something more than free speech.
As a journalist who relies on freedom of speech, I would never advocate tossing Rogan off Spotify. But as a citizen, I sure appreciated Young calling him out over the deeper issue: How is it that we have morphed into a country where people claim endless "rights" while fewer and fewer believe they have any "responsibilities."
That was really Young's message for Rogan and Spotify: Sure, you have the right to spread anti-vaccine misinformation, but where's your sense of responsibility to your fellow citizens, and especially to the nurses and doctors who have to deal with the fallout for your words?
This pervasive claim that "I have my rights" but "I don't have responsibilities" is unraveling our country today.
"We are losing what could be called our societal immunity," argued Dov Seidman, founder of the How Institute for Society. "Societal immunity is the capacity for people to come together, do hard things and look out for one another in the face of existential threats, like a pandemic, or serious challenges to the cornerstones of their political and economic systems, like the legitimacy of elections or peaceful transfer of power."
But societal immunity "is a function of trust," added Seidman. (Disclosure: Seidman is a donor to my wife's museum, Planet Word.) "When trust in institutions, leaders and each other is high, people -- in a crisis -- are more willing to sublimate their cherished rights and demonstrate their sense of shared responsibilities toward others, even others they disagree with on important issues and even if it means making sacrifices."
When our trust in each other erodes, though, as is happening in America today, fewer people think they have responsibilities to the other -- only rights that protect them from being told by the other what to do.
When Rogan exercised his right to spread misinformation about vaccines, and when Spotify stood behind its biggest star, they were doing nothing illegal.
They were just doing something shameful.
Because the Rogan podcast episode that set off the controversy, an interview with Dr. Robert Malone, who has gained fame with discredited claims, completely ignored the four most important statistical facts about Covid-19 today that highlight our responsibilities -- to our fellow citizens and, even more so, to the nurses and doctors risking their lives to take care of us in a pandemic.
The first three statistics are from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's latest surveys. First, unvaccinated adults 18 years and older are 16 times more likely to be hospitalized for Covid than fully vaccinated adults. Second: Adults 65 and older who are not vaccinated are around 50 times more likely to be hospitalized for Covid than those who have received a full vaccine course and a booster. Third: Unvaccinated people are 20 times more likely to die of Covid than people who are vaccinated and boosted.
The fourth statistic is from a survey from the staffing firm Cross Country Healthcare and Florida Atlantic University's College of Nursing, released in December. It found that the emotional toll and other work conditions brought on by the pandemic contributed to some two-thirds of nurses giving thought to leaving the profession.
A McKinsey study last month about the stress on nurses quoted Gretchen Berlin, a registered nurse and McKinsey partner, as saying: "Many patients, especially at the start of this, had only the nurses with them for those final moments, and I'm not sure that we've provided the decompression space for what that does to an individual who has to see that and support people through that over and over again. ... The level of stress that individuals are dealing with is going to have massive implications on everyone's well-being."
My friend Dr. Steven Packer, president and C.E.O. of Montage Health and Community Hospital in Monterey, Calif., told me that many hospitals today are experiencing an unprecedented 20 percent annual turnover rate of nurses -- more than double the historical baseline. The more nurses leave, the more those left behind have had to work overtime.
"We have hard-working frontline staff in critical care settings stretched thin caring for critically ill Covid patients -- with the overwhelming majority of those patients having a potentially avoidable illness had they only been vaccinated," explained Packer. "It is disheartening and distressing."
Especially when so many dying unvaccinated patients tell their nurses, "I wish I had gotten vaccinated," according to the American Hospital Association.
But as Wired magazine columnist Steve Levy wrote last week in a critique of Rogan's three-hour Spotify interview with Malone, none of these statistics were mentioned during that podcast.
"You can listen to the entire 186-minute lovefest between Rogan and Malone and have no idea that our hospitals are overloaded with Covid cases," wrote Levy, "and that on the day their conversation transpired, 7,559 people worldwide died of Covid, 1,410 of which were in the United States. The vast majority of them were unvaccinated."
Instead, "the entirety of the podcast makes it clear that Rogan and Malone are on the same team," Levy added. "When Malone uncorks questionable allegations about disastrous vaccine effects and the global cabal of politicians and drugmakers pulling strings, Rogan responds with uh-huhs and wows." There is no mention of the numerous studies that "unvaccinated people are many, many times more likely to be hospitalized or die."
That was Rogan's right. That was Spotify C.E.O. Daniel Ek's right. But who was looking out for the doctors and nurses on the pandemic front lines whose only ask is that the politicians and media influencers who are privileged enough to have public platforms -- especially one like Rogan with an average of 11 million listeners per episode -- use them to reinforce our responsibilities to one another, not just our rights.
I'll tell you who was defending them: Neil Young.
Listen to the last line of Young's statement when he pulled out of Spotify: "I am happy and proud to stand in solidarity with the frontline health care workers who risk their lives every day to help others."
Rogan has vowed to do better at counterbalancing controversial guests. He could start by offering his listeners a 186-minute episode with intensive care nurses and doctors about what this pandemic of the unvaccinated has done to them.
That would be a teaching moment, not only about Covid, but also about putting our responsibilities to one another -- and especially to those who care for us -- at least on a par with our right to be as dumb and selfish as we want to be.
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Rights but not responsibilities?
Cough George Floyd riots cough
Rogan was a Bernie Sanders backing progressive…
Liberal motto: " I have my rights, yours don't matter".
That's not fair. We all have rights. Everybody across the board.
Sometimes liberals think their rights trump the rights of others. Mask mandates/vaccination comes to mind. Amazing how many liberals I know would force people to get a vaccine they don't want so the liberal person can feel safer when they go into a restaurant. When I mention they should do a risk / reward analysis based on the assumption about 70% of the people in the restaurant are not vaccinated they don't seem to understand why they can't just force everyone to bend to their will to get vaccinated.
People are 'forced' to get vaccinated all the time.
Nothing new. Why you all are acting like it is the end of the world and some sort of travesty, I don't get.
you and your kids had to have vaccinations to attend school. where was your outrage then?
My issue is with the federal government mandating it and liberals believing it is their right to force others to do it.
read 3.1.4
Is the military part of the federal government?
Technically, they're not.
read 3.1.3 again
Yep, and since they are the government does have the right to mandate it even though I still don't agree with it. I am talking about the government forcing non government employees to get it and the liberals that think they can force everyone to get it..
And conservatives that think people don't have to and go around telling people it is bad...
Point being, vaccines and mandates have been around for a long time.
It seems to me some conservatives are jumping all over this and acting like we live under a dictatorship, using things like this for no more than political stunts, that could harm the health of the nation.
Yeah with 'religious' bullshit objections...
It's more nuanced than that.
Some occupations require vaccination. Americans are free to choose another.
About 7% of American children are homeschooled. No vaccination required.
People are still mandated to get vaccines. Just because idiots find loopholes doesn't make any mandates not mandates...
What vaccines are federally mandated?
They are not required under penalty of law to get vaccinated.
They are not denied basic rights if they don't.
International travel and the military.
They can be denied certain privileges.
But that's not what's happening.
Places like NY or DC are imposing restrictions on people's rights.
Both are voluntary and therefore not required. One doesn’t have to travel or join the military.
Pretty simple, no one can make you get vaccinated if you don’t want to. At least not in the USA.
As it should be.
Depends on what you call a 'right'.
You are correct and it has been harming the health of the nation. What do you call the spreading of ignorance? Willful ignorance? What Abbott and DeathSantis and other anti-mandate, anti-masks and Florida's surgeon general not saying if he got the vaccine? That ignorance? Knowing it's wrong?????????????????????
Look what's happening in Ottawa and all around the world fueled by these morons.
What do you mean "nothing new" this vaccine is just over a year old. You nor anyone else has any idea of what long term effects it could have on the population. When you try to silence all debate about how to treat Covid you introduce doubt. Do you get that.
How many vaccinations were required that were less then 18 months from their creation?
No one is silencing any debate. Like that would even be possible.
Yet we have people giving out false information and people telling others to ignore any protocols...
Liberal motto: "I have my rights and I cherish them. I don't have the right to carelessly force myself on and possibly infect others by not following basic safety guidelines in public spaces during a deadly pandemic like wearing masks and getting vaccinated.".
Conservative motto: "I have my rights plus the right to deny those rights to those I deem 'sinners' like gay and transgender liberals. I have the right to deny women their right to privacy. I have the right to infect others with careless dangerous behavior in public like refusing to wear a mask and refusing to get vaccinated during a pandemic".
Yet you do have the right to force others to do what you want because you have deemed it is for the greater good. BS.
If you don't like the idea someone around you has no mask or vaccine it is well within your right to remain in your basement until you feel it is safe enough to come out. But remember, if you are vaccinated and wear a mask and you do decide to come out and do catch covid chances are about 99% that you will come out the other side just fine.
There is no hope for people that are that hypocritical. Thank god they are still a minority. [deleted]
Yes, we do it all the fucking time. We "force" people to drive the speed limit by fining or even arresting them if they break those basic safety laws. We "force" people to wear seatbelts, wear motorcycle helmets, to use proper car seats for children. We deny Americans the right to buy illegal drugs like heroin and meth. Most businesses require customers to wear shoes and shirts or they deny them service which is upheld as legal by the government, there is simply no difference for a business that wants to require masks or customers to be vaccinated.
As anyone with more than half a brain knows, freedom isn't free, it requires self sacrifice. Those refusing to wear masks and get vaccinated on "principle" don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
First of all, "misinformation" needs to be precisely defined. From the very beginning Flip-Flop Fauci and the so called experts have given conflicting and erroneous advice. All this amounts to is left wing political censorship..
It is just amazing that so many people do not comprehend that science is on the bleeding edge of knowledge and that during a pandemic, when operating in real-time with a mutating virus, scarce resources, political/diplomatic pressures, etc., new findings in this complex, dynamic situation will result in changes to recommendations.
I would have been suspicious if no changes in recommendations were communicated, not that changes resulting from learning-as-we-go are communicated.
THAT RIGHT THERE. There is the problem. When politicians got involved it became less about the "science" and more about control.
When politicians get involved, politics is blended with science.
There was no blending. This was a control move. There is so much that has been ignored all because of the politics.
Of course there was blending; it is inevitable.
Good grief, get a grip on this conspiracy nonsense.
There's nothing conspiratorial about it
Yes, they are trying to control and reduce the number of infections through policy. More often than not they use the science to inform their policy.
Why the fuck would the administration care about people wearing masks or getting vaccinated if it wasn't about controlling the spread of Covid? Just suggesting that it might be some other nefarious motivation without a lick of evidence is a fucking conspiracy theory. Conservatives act as if Democrats have always been trying to make them wear masks, like its some long decades old battle and now Covid has given them cover to make good on their plot to cover conservative mouths. It's pure lunacy.
Meh. There was blending some of the time.
Again, he's not 100% wrong. Some of the decisions made were definitely about political control.
To some extent, yes. Definitely. However, there is far too much policy that has little benefit beyond reducing fear among a certain set of constituents.
A significant amount of policy has been instituted or proposed without any real evidence to suggest it will actually reduce hospitalizations or deaths.
This is a fair point. While I don't think that's what they really believe, they certainly don't do a very good job of communicating their actual viewpoints in a coherent manner sometimes.
A public statement from an official spokesperson for the government will typically have political considerations. A public statement from a scientific organization would also have political considerations. It is very difficult to deal with the public (responsibly) and not factor in political considerations (and others such as confusion ... like skipping over the ν (Nu) variant to avoid confusion as 'new variant') when delivering a message.
Political control to what end? Just to feel powerful? What value is it for an official (e.g. a governor) to impose inconvenient restrictions on their constituents?
Restrictions cost political capital. Officials would impose restrictions when they believe they need to do so for the safety of their constituents. They would also do so to minimize blame on them for not taking appropriate action if infection rates soar. Either way, imposing restrictions costs the official.
Imposing gratuitous restrictions has no upside that I can see.
Do you think officials impose mandates to gratuitously flex their muscles ... some kind of ego trip? Do you think that imposing inconvenient and undesirable mandates does NOT cost the official political capital?
Undermining political opposition and/or pandering to their base constituents.
Again, pandering to their base.
Quite the opposite. It generates capital, especially among liberal and Millennial voters.
Appealing to one's base is not what I call a power play. And the only way that imposing restrictions on one's base (because they have to mask up too) is valuable (in terms of political capital) is if the base wants the restrictions.
There is nothing unusual about a politician (e.g. a governor) taking actions that favor the positions of those who put the individual in office. If that is how folks define 'power play' then it is just another label for basic election politics.
A mandate from the government is NOT a recommendation.
Yeah, so? Did you not notice that we were discussing Fauci and others who communicate recommendations to the public?
Fauci cannot mandate anything. You know this, right?
I didn't use the term. You asked "political control to what end?" My answer is simply.... the same end to which all political control is used....staying in political control.
Exactly.
Let's do remember the research on how Millennials are far more left-leaning than older voters and that they are the most fear/anxiety-ridden generation ever. They are scared about Covid (among everything else) and are quite happy to force you to do nearly anything if it assuages that fear, even temporarily.
Then none of this should surprise you.
"Power play" is your term, and you've just now started using it, so I have no idea how you define it.
However, I suggest you may be contradicting yourself a bit. On the one hand, you describe restrictions as "inconvenient and undesirable", and now you're calling them "basic election politics".
Personally, I don't see this as routine at all.
That is the context of this discussion. The continued complaint is that officials such as governors are using the pandemic as an excuse to gratuitously control people.
What makes you think I am surprised by politicians seeking to give the impression that they are doing what their constituents want? I am reacting to the conspiracy theory (that never seems to end) which presumes governors, et. al. are using the pandemic as an excuse to gratuitously control people.
Power play ≅ officials such as governors using the pandemic as an excuse to gratuitously control people
I do not see why that is confusing. Restrictions are almost always inconvenient and undesirable. Nobody wants to be restricted without proper justification. And I used basic election politics to reflect a governor catering to the perceived desires of those who voted the governor into office.
Putting it together: if a governor believes their constituents want restrictions imposed (because safety is a higher priority than inconvenience) then that is basic election politics (catering to the electorate). And if a governor imposes restrictions that the electorate does NOT want then we are likely dealing with a governor who believes restrictions are best even if it costs political capital.
In either case, it makes no sense for an official, such as a governor, to use the pandemic as an excuse to gratuitously control people.
I don't see anyone making that assertion. I see several people talking about "control", which we now all seem to agree was definitely a factor.
I think you may be projecting that "gratuitous" idea. I've not seen anyone else suggest it.
You now have my very detailed position for when you do see it.
Who in the hell are you quoting? As much as I agree with that statement, I never said that.
Get your shit straight.
So you are actually gullible enough to think there isn't a power grab?
What power, exactly, does a governor grab by instituting measures to manage a pandemic?
Really?
How about closing schools, closing business, telling people they can’t go places without masks, requiring vaccinations to keep jobs etc, etc.
What is the power grab? You listed actions (use of power) taken to deal with a pandemic.
By your reasoning, any action taken by a governor would be a power grab.
Man, your logic is something else.
I figured this is where you were going with this but wanted you to say it out loud again. Amazing!
If you can’t see how those things are a power grab over people’s previous liberty, I can’t help you.
Good luck.
Taking actions within the power of office for a reasonable and specific purpose as a governor is not a power grab, it is an exercise of extant power.
Yes it imposes restrictions on the people. And that limits their liberty. Those facts do not make the actions a power grab. When the state legislature passes new laws that restrict people, is that a power grab too?
Distinguish between exercising the power of office for a specific, temporary purpose (in this case, to deal with a pandemic) and the grabbing of power. When all is done, what new powers did the governor acquire?
Rationalize it how you want.
There was a clear delineation in how Governors handled this. In Michigan Whitmer had her ability to make such Executive decisions curtailed. Heavily.
Her power grabs were effectively censured by the peoples representatives. It’s happening all over the world now. People are tired of excessive power grabs at all levels.
You continue to conflate applying extant powers of office to deal with a specific situation with a power grab (acquiring new powers of office).
Restricting constituents by imposing temporary measures such as masking, social distancing, etc. does not acquire (grab) new powers of office.
People are tired of imposed restrictions. You seem to not be able to distinguish an action taken by a governor that falls within their powers of office and responsibilities of office and a power grab (aggressively acquiring new powers).
Nah .... and once again we disagree ..... completely. Some abused their powers with unnecessary power grabs and some didn’t.
No more needs to be said on that topic.
Even if you see this as abuse of power, it still is not a power grab.
State the new powers of office acquired by this 'power grab'.
Here we go with another attempt to redefine the meaning or words.
Fits my read on this situation perfectly. Yours? Not so much.
What new control did the governor obtain (aka acquire)?
The phrase 'obtain control' means to acquire control that one does not currently hold. If one has the control (the power of office) to impose precautionary restrictions then there is no obtaining involved.
See?
State the new powers of office acquired by this 'power grab'.
No I don’t see, do you? .... my point has already been clearly stated here and refused by you .... we disagree .... get over it.
Given you repeatedly failed to state the new powers of office acquired by this 'power grab' your disagreement has no foundation.
I’ve failed nothing.
You however have failed again in your attempt to redefine another phrase. Failed badly.
Nothing new there.
Yeah, I’m pretty tired of seeing people proclaim their right to be selfish or mean. Our country is supposed to be many people coming together. E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, one. But you don’t become one by not giving a fuck about public health or by insisting that some portion of the population is destroying the country.
Conservatism can be a good thing, but not when all the compassion and thoughtfulness has gone out of it.
Needed to be repeated
Sounds like that old/non-existent alleged "compassionate conservatives"
At the time when it came out of Bush II's mouth I laughed at him and mocked him. But I do believe there are people who really are compassionate conservatives. They just lie low, do their jobs, live their lives, go to church, but don't feel the need to tell everyone 24 hours a day.
they're more afraid of the domestic terrorist wing of the GOP than anyone...
If they are truly afraid then it's time for them to stand up to the GOOPER terrorists
In truth that is most people on both sides. Live and let live that is.
Then you have the loud mouth minority on both sides that stirs that pot. I could care less what anyone else does but ultimately it turns to some sanctimonious prick telling me and mine what we should and shouldn’t do.
Like the mask mandates. Coming from a field that understands such things cloth masks are a joke. Sure, they stop the big chunks and slow down the little ones but from day one I said they were a joke intended to give people a false sense of security. Nothing more.
Ridiculous.
they're conditioned to submit to a higher authority, unless that authority are democrats...
The pricks that tell me what I can or can't do are the opposite of the pricks that tell you what to do.
As for masks....I don't claim to know anything about them so I don't pretend that I do
like thumpers denying women the individual freedom to determine their own health choices...
Not all of them. We have some conservatives on NT that actually do think for themselves. They use the daily talking points memo for toilet paper
No, like the triggered wanting centuries year old statues torn down.
Etc, etc.
mostly statues of traitors that were opposed to the full width and breadth of the constitution, you know, that last group of assholes opposed to the peaceful transfer of power after an election.
Not always but they apparently have you convinced that it always is.
A big part of the problem.
More empirical evidence..... thx!
Cloth masks have always been described as a mechanism to help protect others from the wearer. That is because the virus is a payload within larger droplets and even a cloth mask has a beneficial effect on catching the droplets. Cloth masks have not been recommended as a good way to protect oneself from inhaling airborne virus particles from others. The KN95, N95 masks have the fit and mesh to provide a decent protection from others.
People simplify (and distort) recommendations and then blame the recommenders. They also 'hear things' and then pass them along without proper analysis and verification. That is what is ridiculous.
You mean like starting a 4 year investigation based on the mumblings of the losing candidate?
You don't know my life and stop pretending that you do. You live in Blue Michigan. I live in Red Arkansas. It's like living on 2 different planets. I don't have to be convinced about anything just like you would be irritated if I told you
Do you like others telling you how you think? I don't think you do. So stop thinking that you live inside my head. You don't. Just like I don't live inside your head
you don't need to, there are health expert's recommendations and there's the opinion of their impotent leader that could have subdued the pandemic before the election if he hadn't been preoccupied with his own science-free hyperbole.
I know. I'm just trying not to come off as a know it all.
Surgeons wear masks when they operate. They wear them so they don't get their mouth and nose germs in my wound while they have me open. If people don't understand that about masks maybe they don't fuck all about what they think they know.
obviously they won't need to when operating on morons from now on...
"like thumpers denying women the individual freedom to determine their own health choices..."
Not happening
They won't have to as the morons will clearly be refusing to let an actual surgeon operate on them, they'd prefer to call in "the real experts" like Joe Rogan or Alex Jones to do the surgery...
They fly their "Blue Lives Matter" flags for officers who regulate how fast they drive, fine them for not wearing seatbelts, arrest them for having one too many beers before trying to drive home, tow their vehicles if they park where they're not supposed to and can revoke their right to operate a motor vehicle if they feel they're driving unsafely, but asking them to wear a mask in the grocery store is out of control authoritarianism!
NAME THEM, show the articles or video from Feb or Mar of 2020 of their recommendations to stop the virus!
Nah, experts like Fauci, with carefully crafted comments, intended to give people a false sense of security, are the really ridiculous thing. The trusted expert, beyond reproach .....
Never once did I hear a truly honest comment from him on mask effectiveness until well into the pandemic. Pretty sure the “science” of respiratory aerosol has not changed much recently ......
I know what you post here and respond accordingly. Just like everyone else here
Right back at ya. Clearly you don’t understand where I live. I do live in Michigan but most of Michigan is red by land mass. I live in heavily red northern Michigan. So it’s not that different. Not politically anyways.
i don’t and I’m not so stop saying I am.
Never said I did. That’s your sensitivity not mine.
soon to be the live fire training ground against domestic terrorist groups by the DHS and FBI.
Some people hear what they want to hear.
Yep and I’m not one of them. Are you?
Nice, you actually got three people to vote for that hateful rhetoric. Keep that empirical evidence coming .....
That said, dream on haters. Dream on .....
It seems you can always get an expert to say whatever you want to hear. IMO as getting the virus got easier the type of mask needed changed. The government starting out saying N95 was not needed seems to have changed which does not help the credibility factor even if it is true. Also having a bunch of people with N95 masks with absolutely no knowledge as to how to wear them doesn't help. The government has not done a good job explaining the thought process behind the changes, it seems they just say things have changed and you should take it on faith.
You also have to remember they are standing over you so it is easier for them to infect your open wound than if they were talking to you from across their desk. Also interesting that they use a surgical mask and not an N95 which is obviously the "right tool for the job". I may have missed it but I don't believe the government did as good a job as they could have educating people about what mask is good for what and why (the why being the key point). I also don't believe there was a great effort teaching people how to properly wear the mask, especially the N 95 where obviously the idea is to have a good seal. Our town was good about handing them out but is seems that would have been a good time to train people how to use it and that never took place .I seem to recall having training (and even a sign off) when N95s were used where I worked. All that being said I still like my KF 94.
My favorite is watching folks wearing N95 masks that have gaps around their nose because they failed to crimp it down.
N95 is now almost a cloth mask ....
Will remind you of that next time there is a Republican ion the White House; and the left are losing their collective shit again, and are unwilling to follow a higher authority. Democrats only follow Democrats, period.
You mean BLM and Antifa; they aren't as big of a problem in Michigan as elsewhere; but I am sure Detroit would enjoy the Feds cleaning them up.
And your pricks have you convinced that socialism will be the order of the day. All of your rights will be curtailed.
Your boogeyman is no different than mine
Lol .... you say I don’t know you but suddenly you are an expert on me?
Hilarious!
I go by the comments you write
Ah yes, the Pee Wee Herman gambit .... well played giggles, well played.
That is not the Pee Wee Herman gambit. At least not the one I'm famiilar with
Close enough, either way I appreciate the flattery ......
Liberalism can be a good thing, but not when all the compassion and thoughtfulness has gone out of it.
Blanket statements that one side is the one at fault or has a problem never served to resolve anything....
It’s not a blanket statement. I clearly qualified it with specifics.
I didn’t say anything about liberalism because the seed is not about that. I am plenty critical of liberals when the topic calls for it. Conservatives should not close their eyes to constructive criticism by just saying “what about the liberals?”
That's all you got?
You qualified your statement with an opinion, and we all know about opinions... What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's?
You do believe your opinion is more valid than others and that is your right, but unsaid and ignored is anyone else's right to have an opinion as well... That's what makes it a blanket statement...
There are a lot of people that share your opinion and a lot of people that don't....
How do you resolve that with statements that yours is the correct opinion? And the implied meaning of that for everyone else's?
So the opposite statement is equally just, true and as valid as yours... Because you qualified it you moved it to a statement of partisan opinion...
You want to claim middle of the road, that you criticize liberals when YOU deem them worthy of it then you have to accept when others do the same thing...
You can't walk both sides of the line...
Do you understand how this works? We are all here to give our opinions. I didn’t say mine was more valid than anyone else’s. I just expressed it. Stop looking for a fight by making things up about what I said.
I walk where I please. If you don’t like it, go cry in the corner.
YOU challenged ME
I responded, putting your challenge into the correct perspective...
[ Deleted ]
You can walk where ever the fuck you want to, but when you claim to know what's in certain peoples hearts and minds, Expect to be challenged...
You go cry, I didn't make a damned thing up, it's all here in black and white, [ Deleted ]
Your response clearly says that you can't handle it, that's why it's nothing but irrelevant insults...
Maybe you forget that I agree with your positions at least half the time, usually more often than not... But not when you make yourself the arbiter of truth based upon opinion...
Yes your entitled to your opinions, but so is everyone else, and everyone else's is just as valid as yours to you and them... Since they are opinions, no facts are elicited in the stating... But it's nice to see you consider yours as fact sufficient to judge others by...
Part of the problem we are dealing with as a society....
I challenged you?
I cannot imagine why I would care to challenge you. And in any event, I didn’t. I started this thread with my own idea that had nothing to do with you. And then to support your silly claim that I challenged you, you linked to a post in the middle of the thread. I started this thread with @ 5 . You responded to it.
What is your problem? Why are you trying to pick a fight with me? I didn’t make anything up or insult you.
This is nonsense. I don’t know where you are getting this.
Yeah you kinda did. All this nonsense you keep saying about me being God or an arbiter or that I said only my opinion is valid is totally made up. I never said a thing about anyone else expressing their opinion.
Yep you started it at 5, my direct response to you was at 5.2... and it goes from there...
Am I trying to pick a fight with you, no, your direct response to me at 5.2.1 where you did challenge me and dismiss my opinion as whataboutism...
At 5.2.2 I rejected that challenge and logically disposed of the whataboutism claim...
At 5.2.3 You question my intelligence and my intent by making it personal, with childish insults, when it really wasn't..
At 5.4 I called you on it....
At 5.5 You deny challenging me on it and try a turnaboutism argument... None of it was made up, a discussion where I illustrated the vaucousness of an opinion that's about worthless in the overall conversation from it's simple plain blanket bias insulting one side...
And rather look at the point made you chose to attack and insult...
I don't know, maybe we are speaking an entirely different brand of the english language...
Cause it sure seems to me from my experiences on the board with just this type of discussion that it usually starts with one making a blind blanket statement, one challenging the validity of that statement, a dismissive denial response, a logical response answering the dismissive denial, insult of the opposing position, logical rejection of the insults, and finally turning it around claiming it is the other that has the issue...
That is the typical pattern of all such "Discussions" over blanket bias statements... Been that way on all media platforms for decades...
Question is how does one get past trying to defend worthless statements of bias? How does one stop making worthless statements of bias?
You usually don't go for such, you tell me, how does it get stopped....
Yes. I’ll explain why it’s whataboutism if you don’t understand my use of the term. I expressed a thought about conservatism. Rather than address the content of that thought, you replied to it by focusing on something else. That’s how whataboutism works. I made a statement about conservatism. In reply, you didn’t say anything about conservatism. You just copied my comment and replaced “conservatism” with “liberalism” to no point.
I questioned your intelligence? I couldn’t care less about your intelligence.
You can say this while accusing me of being arrogant and also accusing me of saying only my opinion has value? (Something I never said, btw) Do you even see the hypocrisy of that?
I have not attacked or insulted you at all. I have been pleading with you to de-escalate and just discuss the topic. You are the one calling me arrogant, accusing me of saying that only my opinion matters, and thinking of myself as God. I haven’t said anything like that about you.
Or do you think that me saying conservatism should be compassionate and thoughtful is somehow an insult to you? Frankly, I can’t understand why are you so bent out of shape over what I saw as a very reasonable statement.
I have already tried to explain to you why I don’t think it was a blanket response, but you are determined to discuss me and not my statement.
Bottom line: Discuss the actual content of my thought in @5 (and not me) or we are done. I have tried really hard to be patient.
We were done when I posted my last comment... Either you don't understand the point I made or you do and are desperately trying to deflect away from it...
No matter, I did discuss the point you made, directly, couldn't have been more direct... ie there is no compassion or thoughtfulness in the conservatives, all I did was point out there isn't in the liberals either...
Which is a truth that's plain cause we see it here every day...
Rather than accept that point, which directly goes to the point of the article, and should have expanded your point to encompass the whole sordid behavior, you decided to defend your limited point... No matter
Like I said, I was done with the last posting... I didn't make it about you, you made it about me...
You can explain it away anyway you like... No matter to me... There is only one further response I will give to this....
Have a nice day...
Politics, politics, politics - why the hell is it necessary to politicize EVERYTHING? What this is about is RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILTIES and politics has NOTHING to do with the necessity for responsibilities to limit rights. Rights are also limited by laws and morality but the problem seems to be that only laws limit (but judging from the amount of gun violence and other crimes in America limit not too successfully) rights, whereas responsibilities and morality are ignored. Political arguments only deflect from what is important.
Buzz, if anyone on any social media platform gave a damn about what was important other than themselves and their all important opinions, Social Media would be out of business...
Social media is the purveyor of nothing valuable... much like the humor written on bathroom walls... It only remains viable when people decide the emotional tripe is worth arguing over...
The gossip group of old bitties with the latest rumors being stated as fact... Opinions galore, and every opinion is the rock hard truth needingabsolute defense to it's veracity and anyone with a differing opinion is the cold hard enemy that needs to be destroyed in defense in the believed truth of that ONE PERSONS OPINION....
The silly thing is, we all fit the classic demographic of the old bitties and the neighborhood rumor mills... At least most on this site do...
What is important? a million different things and a million different opinions of what those things are making a quadrillion different possible potential positions opinion can take...
How can simple truths compete with that?
Well, okay NWM, and what you posted was your opinion. I just thought the topic was rights and responsibilities so I bothered to comment on it. I guess it was my opinion, the one in a million. I should just go back and continue watching the Olympics. By the way, do you ever sleep?