Tis the Season for Bashing Christian Celebration of Christmas
Time for the holiday tradition of rehashing the history of the Christmas holiday. We'll hear how Christmas is really about pagan celebration of the winter solstice, Yule celebrations, Egyptian and Roman gods, and how modern celebration of the Christmas holiday has nothing to do with theology.
So, the underlying message is that secular society has appropriated the Christmas holiday. And the secular celebration of the holiday involves mass consumption, money, and meaningless symbolism. The secular Christmas holiday has become an orgy of greed and selfishness.
We are to believe that somehow the secularization of the Christmas holiday is because the Christian religion is evil? Naturally there's no profit in religious observation of the holiday and that's just wrong.
What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?
Merry Christmas!
Thanks for doing this. I was going to seed an article on the latest tactic in the secular progressives war on Christmas, burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees. You have it covered.
The Fox tree was burned by a homeless mentally unstable man.
One instance of someone 'burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees'
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It's just a Yule tree.
This is the why there is a war on Christmas, the right wing insisting that there is one when there isn't. Many know no other thing than playing the victim.
It was also a fake tree and coming from Fox News, is anyone surprised?
It wasn’t the only tree attacked. At 5 pm eastern time Fox News will broadcast the lighting of the new bigger and better one with even more lights.
Attacked? LOL! Then prove which other trees were 'attacked'!
While others exist to simply blame the victims in the war against against Christmas
There is no war on Christmas, never was, it was, (and is), nothing more than a fake narrative designed to create a place for people to claim victimhood. That's it, end of story.
It must be one of those Xmas stories. Like How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. That was a declaration by the pope that moved the celebration to coincide with the traditional pagan celebration of Yule.
Happy Holidays!
Happy Holidays to you, too!
Merry Christmas Nerm.
Merry Christmas! Enjoy the holidays however you celebrate them.
Merry Christmas or in my native tongue, Vesel'e Vianoce
Merry Christmas to you, too!
Happy holidays
Happy Holidays! Hope the holidays are safe and happy for you and yours.
Thank you, and to you as well.
Buon Natale
Buon Natale! Have a blessed holiday.
Happy Holidays.
Happy Holidays to you, too.
Happy rebranded Pagan holidays to you and yours.
Happy Holidays! Pagan, too.
Bain taitneamh as an bhféile
May your feast be plentiful and your cares be light.
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the festival of hypocrites...
...honoring the birth day of a man whose teachings are ignored the other 364 days of the year.
Yes, the 'christians' are forever put upon. And bashed. And repressed.
Maybe non-Christians can stop insulting Christians to begin with.
That would be a good start!
Maybe Christians can stop insulting Non-Christians to begin with.
That would be a good start!
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How are non-Christians insulted by Christians?
This whole article is an insult to pagans. By insinuating that stating what Yule is and how some the Pagan traditions were inserted into Christmas we are somehow "bashing" Christians is an insult. Do we not have the same right as Christians to espouse our beliefs on this forum? By stating the truth of some of the Christmas traditions is not "bashing" your Christmas.
And HOW are non-Christians insulting Christians? By stating the truth? What a mockery of the whole season you have made with this article.
Oh...please.
Call me paranoid but I think his article is a counter to my seed about the origins of Xmas
That was my first impression too.
You will have to ask Mr. Frost that, as it was his quote.
That is why I responded when I usually just skip over this tripe. I just wanted to tell him his article was an insult to Pagans that tell of their beliefs. I guess we are supposed to remain mute until his holiday is over.
So it's not just paranoia
The Christians know they co-opted Pagan beliefs and traditions (well, the Church does) but they keep telling themselves they are morally superior to you because...JESUS!
Who was Jewish.
Obviously, "Merry Christmas" doesn't bother me in the least and I am a Deist, but, there are some people who don't care for it and feel insulted.
Remember, freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion regardless of the religion in question.
Put it another way.. How do you think an Evangelical would feel if someone said, "allah 'akbar" to them? My guess is they would be pissed off.
Merry Christmas doesn't bother me, but I try to remember who believes in what and give my greetings accordingly
Exactly, same here.
I wish people Merry Christmas all the time in response to them wishing same to me. If someone wished me Happy Hanukah (or any other similar greeting), I would respond in kind without hesitation (if I recognized the holiday).
So if I say to you, '' Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad" you will respond in kind. No copy and paste it must be vocal with the proper inflections. Just to give you a head start it's in the Ojibwe double vowel system versus the single vowel system.
How about a "back at ya"?
It's Christ Mass. Not Yule. Not pagan. If you want to celebrate Yule, then by all means go ahead. Christ Mass is not Hanukah, either. That doesn't stop the celebration of Hanukah.
But claiming that the history of Christ Mass is not Christian is a factual flight of fancy. Yes, Christians have incorporated cultural traditions into the holiday (which includes pagan cultural traditions) but Christ Mass is most definitely Christian.
The truth is there would not be Christ Mass without Christians.
Note:
But for you, I would give it a shot.
Another ticket, another blog. I won't be silenced.
And the discussion is better, too.
Oops, I thought I did ask Mr. Frost. Sorry 'bout that.
Nope, that isn't going to work, Trout.
Who is trying to silence you?????????????????????????????
No problem!
There would also be a hell of a lot more Pagans and Pagan belief systems without Christians.
Well then - how about you guys celebrate your day ON THAT day only instead of taking up 6 months proceeding it.
I do celebrate Yule & Christmas. It is not Christ Mass - it is Christmas. Spell it right.
The truth is that you would prefer it if we (all non-christians) would just shut the fuck up any time NEAR December. THAT is what is insulting.
As I stated earlier - your whole article makes a mockery of the holiday season of joy and peace on earth good will towards men (IT DOES NOT SAY CHRISTAINS). BTW - Jesus was a Jew.
I call them the small c 'christians'. They're CINOs
I didn't even read your comment. Obviously it had nothing to do with the topic or it was a comment filled with whining. Whatev. If you're going to comment on my seeds be sure it's on topic and not bashing the article or me
Damn! You're a tough task master
Christians forced conversion on Pagans in Europe and the Americas
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They seem to forget, The Doctrine of Discovery and the Papal Bull, ''"Inter Caetera."
The same could be said to the "Christmas" haters out there
Sure but are there really all that many Christmas 'haters'?
Now you have. The deleted comment became the blog. See how that works?
Like many things today, not many, but that doesn't stop them from trying to drive the narrative for those who aren't.
So your comment was off topic and whining. I'm glad dev deleted it
There also aren't many Christmas supporters that are hating on the Christmas haters but they are still out there.
And like their counterparts they are just as loud and just a whiny.
Dev carpet bomb deletes anything he doesn't like which is completely counterproductive to any uncensored conversation.
Great if you want an echo chamber though.
And now my comment is the topic. But, then, you are here, too, to comment on what you didn't see.
You did, and I answered your question.
Good for you. See how that works?
Don't complain to me.
Not a complaint, it's a fact. I'm glad you got to read it before it gets removed.
You know it's true.
But freedom of religion and freedom from religion is not freedom to disparage religion or insult those who practice religion.
That doesn't explain how non-Christians are insulted by Christians?
Indubitably.
does create that effect when comments are deleted!
If that is your complaint you should speak to a certain RW that does it on a regular basis.
… and thus do not really matter.
Hey, if they should go per the rules so be it but that is not what happens in some groups and why i don't like that rule. Sure it keeps the peace more but only allows groups to censor their group so heavily they become echo chambers.
Not my idea of a uncensored discussion forum but to each their own i guess.
My bad .... i'll stop with the meta now ....
Did a RW delete the comment in question?
Or is this more whataboutism?
I include everyone who does it but if i know who you are talking about.
It's not even close to the same thing most of the time.
Not even close.
Lol ... tell that to this seed.
Maybe so. But there wouldn't be Christmas without Christians. Were the pagan holidays about brotherly love and fellowship?
The truth is that Christians would prefer not be be disparaged anytime someone feels threatened by a plastic baby Jesus.
As the history points out, public displays of Yule trees is based upon religious celebrations, too. So, why aren't Yule trees banned from public facilities and public property?
Yes, Jesus was a Jew. But Jesus was also the first Christian. That's something worth celebrating, don't you think? Merry Christmas!
You noticed it too!
There is so much wrong with your reply.
Yule was a celebration of the lengthening of the days. A celebration of the sun's return and the rebirth of the the land. It was more about survival then kinship. Maybe read a little on something other than YOUR religion.
Where do you see any Yule trees? As far as I know they are all labeled CHRISTMAS trees and I would love you to show me any PUBLIC place that speaks of Yule trees. As far as the plastic baby - I could give 2 fucks - put it wherever you want - BUT if you want to follow the Constitution you can't put it on public property because that is supported by more than Christian people.
Jesus was NOT the first Christian since Christians are the FOLLOWERS of Christ as any GOOD Christian knows. He was a Jew when he was born and he was a Jew when he died.
When someone comes into a seed merely to disrupt it or troll then they deserve to have their comments deleted.
Nerm...you really should do some more reading about your religion
No argument.
Is it your contention that's all that is being done in this case?
Yes
I disagree, vociferously.
The seed seems to be a lot of whining and victimization. Anyone can complain about anything, that does not make it significant (or even true).
I'll try again.. Do you think a Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist or [insert not Christian religion here] wants to hear, "Merry Christmas"?
No.
That's how. Personally, I don't care, I say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays all the time. If I see someone that is clearly not a Christian, I usually just say Happy Holidays in an effort to not blatantly offend someone. I may not always be 100% spot on, but I am who I am and I will never apologize for it.
In other words, I don't try to be an offensive asshole, but I am sure I come off that way from time to time to people who do not share my religious beliefs around the holidays. Hoc est quod est
That's what the first amendment is for.
True, opinions do vary and in the end are only as meaningful one is willing to make them.
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Sounds like that would be a good article or blog. Post it and I'll read it. There seems to be a receptive audience here that read and discuss Christmas season celebrations.
" The “Yule tree,”, or Christmas tree , is a decorated tree, usually an evergreen conifer species, such as pine, fir, cedar, juniper, or spruce. The tradition has origins with ancient civilizations in the middle east, Asia, and Europe. Our modern custom flourished in Germany and spread to other European nations and North America in the 19th century. The Yule tree's brightly colored decorations and lights symbolized stellar objects, spirits of those who died, religious events and figures, and provided edible treats."
A Christmas tree is topped with the Christmas Star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel. A Yule tree is not.
This is a Yule tree:
This is a Christmas tree: Notice the Christmas tree has been secularized with presents (the season to buy). We are socially conditioned to look at the bottom of the tree before looking at the top of the tree. But the top of the tree is why the holiday is called Christmas and not Yule.
Jesus followed the teachings of Christ. But Jesus did not become Christ until he was killed, resurrected, and ascended. Jesus believed in himself as Christ before he became Christ; Jesus was the first Christian.
There are several early Christians mentioned in the scriptures who were Christian before Jesus was killed. But Jesus was the first Christian.
Check the front page. Her blog has been up for days.
Modification of the appropriation.
I missed it. Thank you for pointing out Veronica's blog. It was a good read.
That is bullshit and you know it - there was NO Christ before Jesus so there was NO teachings of Christ. Jesus followed the teachings of his Faith which was the Hebrew faith. Your shit is getting deep.
Christian is not a birthright. Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. No one is born a Christian.
Even Jesus had to choose to be Christian. Jesus chose to preach and teach things that challenged Jewish authority. Jesus could have chosen to flee Jerusalem and Jewish authority but instead chose to remain. Jesus was offered opportunities to recant; Jesus chose not to.
Jesus chose to be baptized. Baptism is not a ritual cleansing of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith. Jesus chose to be an evangelical minister which was not part of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith. Jesus chose to change the meaning of the temple and synagogue. Jesus chose to teach that faith was more important than law, prayer, ritual, or sacrificial offering.
Before telling someone they're spewing bullshit, you better have your shit straight. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. But no one is born Christian; everyone is born something else.
Jesus lived and died a Jew.
That means Hannakuh is a more appropriate celebration than xmas.
ABSOLUTELY
The "Last Supper" was a PASSOVER SEDER, and I don't think that's a Christian ceremony.
IMO, if Christians want to emulate Jesus, they should all convert to Judaism and pooh pooh the fables they created, like Jews returning to Israel and dying at the end of times. I just think they're afraid of being circumcised, not just the knife, but that it will end their "manhood". LOL
Hey Dulay, are you dreaming of being Spiderman?
You speak the facts Buzz.
I can't help but wonder why anyone would even try to make those claims in 3.1.73 while still insisting that their beliefs are based on scripture.
No. I am envisioning catching the ignorant in my web of facts.
And?
Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. And being Christian does not require giving up traditions; those traditions are brought into Christianity by people who become Christian. That's why the celebration of Christmas includes a diverse and inclusive mix of traditions.
How is inclusion supposed to work? Being Christian doesn't mean people cannot bring their traditions of Passover and Hanukkah into Christian celebrations. Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.
It sure as fuck DOES Nerm.
Being a Jew IS 'an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage' Nerm.
Based on the scriptures, Jesus was born, lived and died a Jew. PERIOD. Full stop.
All of that gum flapping in your comment is pure fantasy.
That's nuts .... so i'm a Christian only? Not Caucasian, not American of Slavic/English descent but just a Christian by creed?
That's just fuckin crazy progressive talk.
Nothing more.
No, that's liberal talk. Exclusion is a regressive notion, not a progressive notion. And the argument is based upon liberal exclusion; a Jew can only be a Jew.
Liberals don't seem to understand what diversity and inclusion really means. Liberals aren't progressive.
I beg to differ but really don't feel like getting into the nuances of that argument today.
From a religious standpoint, yes, it does. Judaism does not recognize Jesus as divine.
Strawman and obtuse.
Obtuse.
True and Nerm's whole argument is from a religious standpoint.
Well almost 900 comments and we have a winner. Dumbest statement in the lot
and that's saying something since you deny Christian history and muddle your religious beliefs with
political slurs and imaginary wars.
What a waste.
Show me where in the Judaic Messianic prophecies that fulfillment of the prophecy will mean that Jews will no longer be Jews.
According to the Messianic prophecies the Son of God will be a Jew. Of course Jesus was a Jew. The Messiah cannot be anything other than a Jew. Accepting that Jesus, a Jew, fulfills the Jewish prophecies means Jews give up being Jews?
With almost 900 comments, some are still attempting to make obtuse arguments. And are wasting other's time with their illogical arguments.
Well, one still is.
Twisted nonsense because accepting Jesus is not going to happen
and is theologically incompatible with Judaism.
What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning
Have a good holiday pilgrim.
Show me where anyone said it does.
BTFW, I don't the premise of your posit. What most Christians call as 'Judaic Messianic prophecies' have NOTHING to do with Judaism.
You claimed:
That's bullshit.
Then you ask:
Where the fuck did you get that from Nerm?
While YOU have every right to accept Jesus as whatever the fuck you want to, the Jews have even more of a right to state that Jesus did NOT fulfill the biblical requirements of the Messiah.
The twelve apostles were Jews. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a Jew. Joseph was a Jew. Lazarus was a Jew. Mary Magdalene was a Jew.
St. Peter is considered the first Pope of the Catholic Church. St. Peter was a Jew who followed Jesus as a disciple. The first Pope of the Catholic Church was a Jew. Let that sink in.
No need Nerm. I know the bible, I've read 4 versions, a couple multiple times.
Oh and BTFW, your comment is non-responsive to mine. Merely blathering whatever the fuck you want doesn't count as furthering the discussion.
I think I'm better qualified to deny that statement than you are to say it. If you are saying that being a Jew because one's mother was Jewish that may be a matter of ancestry only, But you are speaking theologically, because you speak of "becoming Christian", and I can tell you that once a Jew accepts Jesus as the "saviour" or divine, or the "son of God" or the Messiah, then they are no longer of the Jewish faith. Jews may well accept Jesus as having been a rabbi or a prophet, but only a human being. "Jews for Jesus" are Christians, not Jews, or there could even be some who were at one time Jews among them, a cult with the purpose of converting naive or disenchanted Jews into becoming Christians.
What trivia point do you think you are making that proves anything?
The first "pope" and the 5th were both Jews. Who cares?
Followers of Christ were simply "of the way" for a hundred years
before Ignatius of Antioch ( a non Jewish city ) called them Christians in a letter.
The people of "the way" liked it.
Let that sink in.
Stop taking what you think you know and molding it to your weak preconceived beliefs about Judaism.
It's embarrassing to watch.
Nah, but opinions do vary.
Facts don't.
True, so let me know when you actually have some real ones
There are plenty examples right here in this seed.
BTFW, your comment about 'the triggered' is the height of irony.
Lol, nope .... not even close but keep gaslighting .......
Did my comment cause you distress Sparty? Questioning your perceptions, are you?
Lol ..... no and no but even farther away than before ..... this is just getting boring now ....
So, what happens to Jews when the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in an acceptable manner?
Look, we know that all of the first Christians were Jews; Christianity began in Israel. The early Christians were an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism. And we can surmise that early Christianity represented a reformed Judaism that threatened the religious hierarchy and power structure of Judaism controlled by the Sadducees and Pharisees sects. Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion.
The name Christian and the roots of today's Christian religion can be traced to Antioch; a Greek city located in today's Turkey. Antioch became the center of 1st century Christianity. And in Antioch, Christians made the reformed Judaism of the apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism an inclusive religion; a religion for gentiles as well as for Jews. One true God for all people. Christians liberated the God of Abraham from being exclusively a God of the Jews.
It wasn't Christians who excluded the Jews. All the first Christians were Jews. It was the Jews who excluded Christians. And Christians were excluded to maintain political power and control over the Temple which was destroyed anyway. No doubt the Jewish leaders of that time tried to blame Christians for destruction of the Temple. Christians have been blamed for the political corruption of many monarchs and church/state bureaucracies.
Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion. Judaism in the time of Jesus had become corrupt and there was a struggle within the elite for control of the Temple which represented control over society. Jesus led an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism that interpreted Judaism to reform both the religious and secular power of the Temple controlled by the elite.
Here's the concise Christianity for Dummies crib notes. This is really the apocalyptic messianic message Jesus was preaching.
We are born sinners; we are predisposed to sin. We must choose to do good. Life is a struggle between good and evil. Our death is our own personal apocalypse. At the apocalypse, the Messiah will not judge us on our sins but will judge us on our struggle between good and evil. Good will triumph in the struggle between good and evil.
Yep, i have that faith as well. A strong faith.
So your claim of gaslighting was bullshit. Got ya.
Here's the concise definitions for dummies crib notes:
Reform:
make changes in (something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.
Christians didn't 'improve', they created their own religion.
Messianic prophecies??? When Jews are no longer young children they don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either. As for your "Messianic Jews", I already commented on your "Jews for Jesus". Jews don't try to prevent you from believing in your fairy tales, nor do they encourage conversion to Judaism, so as far as I'm concerned you can believe the world is flat and Armageddon is coming and I really don't care and for sure you won't have any success converting me to your Christian beliefs, so give it up (or is it considered a sin to not keep trying?)
So Nerm, what is the role of faith in our Christian (salvation) narrative? Hmm?
Christianity is a new covenant (contractual agreement) borne out of the old covenant (contractual agreement) being fulfilled. That is, for believers the old covenant of works "passed away" and the new covenant of faith is instituted for two thousand plus years.
Is that a wholly "new" religion in the sense that you mean it? Not really. The foundation of Christianity is Judaism. Evenso, Jesus referred to himself in life as the "cornerstone" (of an "institution") joining two wholes as one.
That being so, it is also true that Christianity was founded on one man, Jesus, and all of its officials had created for them designated roles not found in the "old religion" on Judaism. For example, pope, pastors, preachers, and teachers.
Gaslighting your gaslighting ...... a diabolical, albeit predictable tactic.
Where did you get this idea?
Well, the yearly secular tradition is to retell every historical story that castes Christians as being evil.
Are you celebrating the holiday this year with Visa, Mastercard, or what's-in-your-wallet?
To me it a haters gotta hate scenario and generally a DNE moment. It accomplishes nothing but to piss people off most of the time.
It's a Festivas for the rest of us is fine with me. Won't change a damn thing for me or mine.
I didn't know Rudolph and Frosty were historical stories...
So that is how we got dentistry, from an elf that wanted to work on teeth.
Again, where do you see this?
Christmas means many different things. There is no single answer that is true for everyone. My family, for example, celebrates Christmas as a fun holiday … no so much in consideration of the proclaimed birth of Jesus but a chance to gather and have traditional fun.
In our family we have 2 celebrations during December. One on the winter solstice (Yule) where we eat and drink and one on Christmas where we exchange gifts, eat and drink. My daughter attends Midnight Mass and enjoys the pageantry. It is never a fight in our house.
I went to Midnight Mass once. All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk. It smelled like a gd brewery in the chapel
Sounds right to me. Some of my extended family go to Chrismas mass but that seems to be the extent of their religious consideration of the holiday. Most of the time is spent preparing for and having family events. Christmas seems more to be a celebration of family and pleasant times; religion seems to be playing an increasingly lesser role.
I used to enjoy Midnight Mass - of course we had already consumed the spiked eggnog... then we had kids and had to attend the "children's Mass". That was a horror show & too goddamn crowded for my tastes.
I agree.
I have a pretty large extended family these days with my daughter marrying my friends' son. We were all a pretty big crowd before but now we're family.
Christmas Eve is not complete without one round of Monopoly
Sure, all starts with a seemingly simple game of monopoly..
Then it all breaks down. The lying, cheating, stealing that eventually leads to a table flip and broken beer bottles..
That would be Uno for us
I was stabbed once over Uno because we rented a house at the beach and it rained all week....
Or was it Yahtzee?
Stabbed?
I've been called names by my spouse and children and in turn called them names and disowned them but never stabbed them...felt like it sometimes
Could be either one of those two in our house. Well not stabbed but quite heated at times. LOL
Back in the day I had decent pecs and it just stayed there for a moment, very difficult to pull out though,
after a minute it went limp and slid out.
His spouse came over and slapped the back of his head really hard and we all laughed.
Pretty sure I have been to that church a time or two.. I'm positive there were a few pews behind me that were passing stinkweed around as well.
My church growing up didn't have midnight mass, but it did have a candlelight Christmas service the Sunday before Christmas. Back in the 80s or 90s, when hair was huge and shellacked with hairspray, the candle/hairspray mix resulted in some minor singeing of a girl's hair. Her hair was extinguished without any permanent damage to her, fortunately. Quite the excitement for our sleepy little town.
Trivial Pursuit at our house.
So there really is such a thing? And it is not just a movie on Netflix? No, really, this is a genuine (request for knowledge) question?
Stabbed? Pecs? Laughter? . . . Scar? Back in the day, I dropped a switchblade into my thigh (accidentally while playing around opening it - of course) and got the scar right now to remember it!
I will be doing exhibitions of my scar (UPON REQUEST). Lines form in the back, please. . . .
I find that after 60 years the only way scars really show up is when you go ice swimming
or whatever they call it, lol
When my hands are cold and wet they show every scar I ever got because my hands turn red where never
violated but white where scars used to exist prominently
I cannot find my hernia scar either but it has to be there.
Yes, my mother has shamed me and her grandchildren into many in PA & NJ.
It's real.
I have two hernia scars. The second one 'brand-spanking' new. Interestingly, I thought my first hernia scar was where my second one is. In other words, I thought my second surgery would be a re-patch! It is not. Lo and behold! My first scar is on the other side (of me).
It seems when a surgeon's team cuts away the 'pubes' you don't just get "naked" - you get facts like where old scars reside! (Smile.) Yes, I can see it plain and clear (now). It's a very old scar!
I remember not quite making it over a chain link fence cutting through veterans housing area at Rising Sun and Adams in Philly when I was 12 0r 13.
Was impaled for a minute or two before I reversed course, threw my baseball kit over the fence and made a better vault.
Played our baseball game and went home limping.
Washed my uniform and never thought about it again.
During the hernia surgery they woke me
demanding to know about previous groin surgeries.
They didn't believe me.
Guess I was just lucky.
Oucheeeeee!-Ooooooo-Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! I can feel the "imposition" placed on you at 12-13 and again at being awakened during surgery! Of all the nerve. What was "up" with that anesthesiologist?
That reminds me of a barium enema (?) or some other substance I drank (?) then got x-rayed and to this day no one can account for this specific bright spot on the film. I was queried about being shot ever in life? (NO. For that I would remember!)
It looks to be in a spot that would be uncomfortable for say, routine exploration looking for "determination." (Smile.) To this day I don't have a read out about it. Wonder if it is still on me?
Yes, Midnight Mass is a thing. Some of them can be truly beautiful. Choirs sing beautiful hymns and the candles glow. In the right Church it can be downright awe inspiring. My daughter likes to attend the local Polish church. It does more of the old fashioned Mass.
Interesting. Curious, in your opinion, is the Polish "old fashioned Mass" one of the "downright awe-inspiring" services you mentioned?
I have a similar story. Back in Toronto I belonged to a businessmen's organization - don't remember if it was the Kiwanis Club, but if not, then something like it, and they had a raffle at $100 a ticket and I bought in and WON. It was for a weeklong trip to Rio de Janeiro for two, airfare and hotel. I've never been to South America, or even Mexico, so I was so excited. But my wife (now my ex) didn't want to go there, and I had to negotiate a trade with the travel agency to come up with the airfare and a week at a second-rate beach hotel in Miami Beach. It was so cold all week, an unusual weather occurrence, that on the few days the sun was out we had to wear sweaters to lie on the beach.
HA!
Now that is so very interesting. I mean it really. I so enjoy when a commenter shares something from the 'vault' of their life. I really do! What causes me to laughter?
Well Buzz, you started a "similar story" with an opening about stabbing. So, I launched into your account looking to see how you offended and concern about your injury! (Smile.)
Good to learn you were just chilly and not brutally assaulted!
Well it was almost half a century ago and things were very different in America back then, so I didn't even imagine back then that I would have been assaulted. Today I wouldn't step one foot into America even to visit my grandchildren unless I was at least wearing body armour and had some kind of spray that would stop an attacker and even then I would be paranoid.
Similarities, crappy weather during vacation.
Being stabbed compared to wearing sweaters, not so much.
But old people like to reminisce and some are known for rather tall fish stories.
The first time my newish wife met the old gang for dinner she tested me for accuracy.
She grabs a steak knife and says OK which one of you stabbed my old man over a game of UNO?
One guy almost spit his food out, another yelled OMG! and the widow of the ne'er do well
turned to the others with a quizzical look
and in unison they all said
"It was Yahtzee! not UNO, for cryin out loud !"
Good times, Good times!
Well, we're not that bad - yet. Though, I can understand the hesitancy due to all the pure-d hell and swaggering occurring "live" and in on our media-platforms!
The majority of us are still just living our 'best life' in-spite of the tragedies occurring remotely.
I know the vast majority of Americans are good people, but the problem is the size (and proliferation) of those who aren't. I'm sure lots of Americans will blame it on the immigrants, but that isn't the real problem.
I shouldn't have used the word "similar", because of course being stabbed is a whole other story than a weather problem. I have to admit that I mistakenly hadn't taken your comment about stabbing as being an actual physical act.
Xmas is a means and an excuse to have and celebrate food, booze, and presents. These are a few of my favorite things
Things some people think Christmas means is revealing and astounding.
A lot of disaffected, holy than thou people out there Tex .....
Yes, and? As was pointed out, Xmas means different things to different people.
If people think Christmas is about food, booze and presents, then they should probably read a little about what Christmas actually is all about.
Haven't some of these folks been complaining about how Christians "stole" their "holidays", but isn't that what non-Christians who celebrate Christmas are doing?
The denial can be strong in those ones.
Help them you can't
It's about whatever one wants it to be.
Sorry, but that is simply idiotic.
Sounds like something made up to support crap that can't be logically defended.
What you think means less than nothing! What Xmas means to you is likely different than what it means to me or anyone else too.
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.
It isn't even debatable.
For most people it is. You will need to get used to the idea that this will grow less true over time. Currently, it is absolutely NOT the case that Christmas is ONLY the celebration of the birth of Christ. For me, it is the celebration of family. It is, to me, a tradition with religious roots but is not a religious holiday. And, importantly, I am far from being the only person on the planet who thinks this way.
Then you have missed what Christmas is.
Your loss, I am sure.
Denying what Christmas IS because of what some people DO is silly. Do better.
No I have not missed anything. I am quite well versed in the religious history of Christmas. The fact that I do not believe it is not a loss. As I see things, it is a positive enlightenment.
Christmas has evolved over time. Your argument would suggest that Christmas can only be what was true at a particular point in time (say, for example, 336 AD in Rome).
That is being blind to reality.
What Christmas is, is a function of perception. The perception of Christmas has changed over time. While religious at inception (i.e. ceremonial celebration of the birth of Christ) the Christmas holiday has changed substantially since the time of Constantine. It has evolved and will continue to do so regardless of your position.
Certainly you recognize that Christmas is substantially more than simply the celebration of the birth of Christ (think 'Santa Claus' for example). This trend will likely continue so get used to it.
[deleted]
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?
That doesn't sound very Christian. On several levels.
Maybe for you. But not for me, and i imagine, not for many others too. That is the historical Christian religion claim. Many do not celebrate Xmas as the time of Jesus' birth. If you want to sing Happy Birthday Jesus, that's fine for you. I'll just party and have fun.
I think you have, and your posts bear that out.
Do you celebrate Hannukah?
How's about Easter?
Good Friday?
Yom Kippur?
Eid Al-fitr?
Diwali?
Then you, like TiG, are not celebrating Christmas but merely using it as an excuse for doing whatever it is you choose to do on that day.
Uh yeah, I explicitly said I use it as an excuse to Celebrate and party. Were you paying attention? Hello?
Doing what I want (or what anyone else wants) on Xmas is my point. That's how I view the day for me. Just as anyone else can view it for themselves however they wish.
That isn't Christmas. [deleted]
Why not call it Family Day then?
What are you so pissed off about? Why can't we liberals celebrate Christmas alongside the conservatives? You are being very selfish about this whole holiday
You do know there are a lot of liberal Christians, yes? I don't think they'd find much Christian love in your comment.
An opinion but like assholes everyone has one.
Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad
so you aren't truly celebrating Christmas
I'm celebrating it my way. People eat, drink, and party on Xmas. Who are you to say they or I are not?
I don't think they would find any in yours.
Yep no doubt.
you aren't celebrating Christmas. you are just partying.
Sandy is not a Christian but you claim to be
They don't know the difference.
Deleted
So....you're not a Christian? Sorry I made that assumption. I heartily apologize
Partying is how I celebrate. Celebrations often involve partying too
My religion is no concern of yours.
Seems someone is bashing Christians. There are A LOT of Liberal Christians.
Go drink some eggnog & calm down.
that is absolutely true.
obtuse.
According to the bashers they are all Conservative Thumpers.
Egg Nog sounds good, Cheers!
You're right that your religion (I prefer the word faith) is none of my business but you're the one that seems to be insisting that liberals have no business celebrating Xmas because they don't celebrate Christ. So you're basically telling all of us that you are a conservative Christian with your bashing of liberals celebrating Xmas.
p.s. There are many liberal Christians. I know Sandy already told you that but I think you might need a refresher
Show me where. I won't hold my breath because you are talking out your ass - maybe you have already indulged in too much eggnog.
One basher. One. And I'm pretty sure he isn't lumping all Christians together. Just the real annoying ones who insist on knocking at one's door on a Saturday at 0800.
She is bashing liberal Christians - which would make her the subject of this whole article....hmmm I wonder if that was Nerm's intention.
Wow, get a grip.
I don't give a shit what you do on Christmas day.
I doubt it
Apparently you do. I shouldn't be celebrating Xmas. That's been your mantra all through here.
I think you're the one that needs to get a grip. I'm not the one on an angry tirade.
Never said one word that someone shouldn't be celebrating Christmas. But you will read what you want to read.
You have a good day Trout.
Don't be snarky with "have a good day, Trout". You don't mean it.
And you need to go back and read all your words on what you've said about liberal Christians. The fact is you know you went over the line but now don't have the ovaries to stand behind them. Bad form
How so? Xmases involve parties, right?
No worries, I know not everyone gets it or knows what Christmas is.
Like I said, Xmas means different things to different people.
I would love to hear what exactly you celebrate and how it relates to the birth of Christ.
Celebrate to have fun. Like I said, Xmas is a good excuse to do so.
so, nothing to do with what Christmas really is, which is what I figured all along.
thanks for the confirmation
Perhaps nothing to do with what you think your idea of Xmas is. But as I repeatedly said, Xmas means different things to different people.
no need to explain, I realize your concept of it has zero to do with actual Christmas
Xmas is essentially a big birthday party. I'm simply engaging in birthday festivities. That's good enough for me.
To each her own. We seem to have different ideas regarding love and kindness.
Yes we certainly do.
I, for one, believe that Christianity is supposed to be about love. Love of family included. Somehow, wanting to celebrate with family is "fucking it up."
Something tells me Jesus would have liked the fact that I love my family. I doubt he would think that fucks anything up.
As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval. I doubt Jesus would approve of your strict rules and boundaries on how love and kindness is expressed. But he still would love you.
Well, most of the time...
Nope. I celebrate Christmas with my work family, and my friends.
Hell, I even wished a total stranger at Costco a Merry Christmas today after helping her find the prettier gift wrap at the back of the bin.
What is the point of you making shit up like this? Where did Sandy stipulate that love and kindness is only okay if it meets some unstated criteria? Seems to me you are working overtime trying to find something for which to be offended and will invent a reason if one is not presented by your interlocutor.
So there is no profit in religious celebration...
Better skip the collection plate...
The collection plate is to break even with expenses and promote the ministries to serve our community and the world. We Protestants at least are non profit organizations
Tell that to Joel Osteen
Jeez, I heard that that $500K was only half of what they take in on a weekend
and that was 7 years ago?
They don't even pay taxes.
Promoting Ministers in Mansions and their Maserati's and personal jets, as non profits.
The effing gall of it all.
smh
Nor should they.
As the Clinton's and Obama's laugh their asses off at their useful idiots from their non profits, private jets, multiple mansions and luxury vacation properties
Did you know that The Salvation Army is a Protestant Christian church? If you drop change into a Salvation Army red kettle then you are making a donation to a Christian church.
"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."
Even for Dulay if she sees this...
Maligayang PaskoThe new hot gift for this year...................
I just read a story about a group (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation) that's complaining about Wreaths Across America a group that lays Wreaths on Military Gravesites. I didn't know that Wreaths were particularly religious, sure they are a traditional Christmas decoration but so are snowflakes and snowmen. A Wreath is about as religious as Cornstalks tied to a fencepost, more a sign of the season than religious object. Seems nitpicky to me. Even if you see Wreaths strictly as Christmas decorations there are two versions of Christmas, one is the Religious Christian Holiday, and the other is the Secular Santa Claus version and Wreaths work with either.
It's weird isn't it. in the 70's when my Uncle, a survivor of German concentration camps would have us for Hanakah
at the end of the evening he always said he loved us but prayed for no snow during Xmas in PA.
Even the snow was tainted, lol.
Apparently the wreath was an important part of the earlier religions absorbed by Christianity.
Are wreaths a religious symbol? – TheKnowledgeBurrow.com
But I agree with the Cornstalk analogy, and we have several seasonal wreaths even heart shapes for Valentines Day
and wine themed ones with corks and grapes.
Some people just need to find something, ANYTHING to be offended by. Just gotta shake your head these days.
[Deleted]
I think this time they have gone too far. There's nothing inherently religious in an Xmas wreath. I think it's a nice gesture to honor the fallen
I was curious about its origins so i googled it. Interesting stuff:
That said, today this is nothing more than hater gotta hate.
Nothing more .....
Someday all gestures of kindness and gratitude will be condemned to not offend anyone about anything. I feel for our generations to come that have to live in such an ugly place.
I guess this is what America wants now.
The story of the Christian celebration of Christmas depends very much upon the century and the particular Christian group you are talking about. Orthodox Christmas isn't until January 7th. The Puritans outlawed celebrating Christmas.
Well those dirty rotten....
Oh humbug, once again I'll overcook the lump of coal.
Although Christmas may originally have been a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus and the recalling of kindness among all people, those were days of dreaming of a white Christmas that would actually happen, whereas these days manufacturers and retailers dream of a green Christmas and they are getting it, and not only that, but it's starting to happen environmentally as well.
Nobody is bashing the Christian celebration of Christmas.
They bash the myth of the "war on Christmas".
They bash the refusal of some Christians to understand and accept that theirs is not the only holiday celebrated near mid-winter, and their insistence that we "keep Christ in Christmas (which some folks don't celebrate)" and that everybody wish them a "merry Christmas" rather than a more-inclusive "happy holidays".
Every year, around Thanksgiving, I start seeing Facebook posts shared around telling me that "It's Merry Christmas, NOT Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings" from those childish and perpetually offended snowflakes who get upset about people hoping that they have happy holidays.
There's some bashing, but it's not starting with non-Christians. Some Christians are forgetting the Golden Rule, and reaping the results of their stubborn refusal to abide by the rules they'd like to impose on others.
Your rationalizations of what is and isn't bashing are ridiculous and typical of the hypocritical left.
Pick and chose, pick and chose.
How so? Where do you see people actually bashing Christmas celebrations by Christians? Be clear and provide real instances. Vague claims of persecution will not suffice.
So, your example of Merry Christmas. You think Christians started that disconnect? I certainly don't. That started when progressives started insisting that Merry Christmas should not used and Happy Holidays should be used in its place. That is a relatively new thing. I could care less what you call it but don't tell folks they can't use Merry Christmas and ostracize them when they do. Thats a verbal assault on Christian beliefs .... period.
You are only fooling yourself if you think Christians started that brouhaha
I could go on but i know i'm wasting my breath with folks who are Christians haters. People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly.
That said, in the end i could care less what people say or think about my faith. But it is satisfying to call the hypocrisy out from time to time and watch the rationalizations really spin out of control
Nobody told you that you can't use "Merry Christmas."
So, you've provided vague examples of nonexistent persecution, and a little ad hom to boot. Such an argument is neither convincing nor Christ-like.
Sandy didn't tell anyone not to use Merry Christmas. Personally I don't care what you tell me, just don't call me late for Happy Hour
How would you know that?
The answer is you couldn't. Suffice it to say you are simply wrong on this topic.
Dead wrong.
That .... would never happen.
Never
First Amendment is how.
Bullshit, you think that stops the triggered from bashing people who use Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays?
Sorry, that's just obtuse reasoning.
You're equating "bashing on", which I have literally never heard anyone do, with "telling Christians they can't". Because that's all you've got to bolster your false claims of persecution.
[deleted]
Like i said, just becasue you say you've never seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And i question the veracity of your comments here when you try to tell me that it's never happened to me when there is no way in hell you could ever know that.
[deleted] Again, i could care less what you call it but look no further than this seed for prove of peoples shitty attitude towards others who use Merry Christmas and that's just one example.
As i said, this discussion is pointless so i'll leave the last word to you
You 'weren't allowed'? What was stopping you from calling it Christmas vacation anyway?
Oh, you can bet many are still doing that, more probably today.
No doubt about it
Yes they still are...........at least in my wife's school system.
I'm just spitballing here but maybe her desire and tradition to call it Merry Christmas?
More ad hom. Still no substantiation for your claims.
How in the world would her desire to call it Merry Christmas (strange name for a school break, I must say) keep her from doing so?
My bad, i meant Christmas vacation .... got my posts mixed up
This is a perfect example of what Sandy is talking about. You gratuitously translate her comments into 'Christian hate'. And don't play the game of 'I did not say that' because she was your target by context.
Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'. That strikes me as looking for a way to be a victim. I have yet to see Sandy make claims like "Christians are evil" or "Christians are all stupid" or "Christians are dangerous", etc.
And some people interpret bashing as "counter arguments".
You can keep trying to spin it otherwise but you would be just as wrong as Sandy. The hate on display here on NT alone towards Christianity while sometimes cleverly veiled, is clear as day to even the most casual of viewers. The Merry Christmas issue is just one good example. It's preposterous to intimate that Christians started that issue. Absolutely preposterous.
Ridiculous, I don't play games here. I've never run from any reasonable line of questioning here ever. Least of all yours or Sandys.
I'm getting deja vu all over again. This reminds me of the "Faith" debate where you simply denied one definition of "Faith" to make your point. To "bash" is to strike violently or to attack physically or verbally. I stated very clearly what has happened to me in the past. Verbal attacks from people who don't like the phrase Merry Christmas. Sandy tried to tell me that it hadn't happened to me, which is impossible for her to know. Verbal assaults like that are becoming more and more regular these days towards people of faith. That is undeniable and trying to gaslight as otherwise is simply ignorant.
That still doesn't explain how her desire to call it a Christmas vacation would prevent her from doing so.
Lots of victim-hood going on here. Personally I do not care if someone or some business advertises 'Merry Christmas' rather than go generic with 'Happy Holidays' or equivalent. Our nation is predominantly Christian so I expect it. But it is not Christian-bashing for people to object to a business catering to a single religion. That is a silly overreaction.
Christian bashing would be unfairly attacking Christians in general. I cannot imagine that many people who would do that. Who among us does not have mostly Christian friends and family? Would we bash aunt Mary because she is a devout Catholic?? Why?
The bashing that is done is typically in response to Christian-based claims such as the nonsense of the YECs. If someone seeks to dumb down society with a belief that our planet is 6,000 years old, etc. they need to be bashed. The fact that their nonsense is religious and they are Christians is irrelevant.
No, Sparty, it is YOU who are doing the spinning. Face up to what you do on the site rather than always, consistently project onto others.
Nobody's bashing Christians. Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.
Getting offended by "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings", however, is bashing religions other than Christianity. It implies that one is wrong to use a salutation that includes Hanukkah. That strikes me as antisemitic.
Apparently so. Do you think it is appropriate to label a counter argument as bashing?
Similarly, do you think it is appropriate to label disagreement as an attack?
When people affix their own atypical meaning to common words, that screws up communication.
I don't know, perhaps she's just a nice person who doesn't want to rock the boat but lets turn it around to what started this whole thing.
Why don't the people who can't call it "Christmas" vacation grow a thicker skin and just let it go?
Lol ... no Tig. i'm not. Not in the least but by all means. Explain how i am spinning my own experiences.
Generally, I agree with you here. But note that our nation is growing increasingly diverse in terms of religion. Approximately 65-% of the nation identify as Christian. Thus, logically, we need to acknowledge that Christmas is not strictly a Christian holiday or we need to recognize that there are other religions that should not be drowned out by Christianity. And, of course, there are the irreligious who do not want the constant delivery of Christian messages and images.
Our nation continues to grow more diverse so I think the thicker skin argument runs both ways. Christians need to lighten up too.
I did not claim you are spinning your own experiences. I claimed that you are spinning what I and others are writing.
I'd say everyone who is a member of this site except maybe Buzz is surrounded by Christians most of the time, as we live in a majority Christian nation.
And I'd say most of those who are accused of bashing are probably like me - we have Christmas trees and lights up (or will soon), and probably exchange gifts and have gatherings with our families. We eat, drink, and make merry, and reminisce on old times, and miss those who are no longer with us, and take joy from the fact that we had them in our lives for the time we did.
We just don't share the religious beliefs. But somehow saying so is "bashing". Somehow, knowing that Christmas trees started as Yule logs is "bashing". Knowing that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but that other festivals did have that date) is "bashing". Recognizing other religions is "bashing".
As i have said numerous times here, i could care less what people call it. My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't or shouldn't call it.
That, is the major distinction here. In my case anyways.
Exactly! It strikes me as over-reaction to claim victimization.
Well if I wished someone Merry Christmas (as I routinely do in response to the same wish) and someone objected to my response, my hackles would go up too.
Thing is, I bet you $$$$ that Sandy would respond just like you and I would.
Yes, whenever it IS bashing.
Yes, whenever it IS an attack.
And whenever people try to ignore commonly accepted definitions of words, become bogged down over definitions instead of what the posts actually convey, that certainly screws up "communication"
Who has told you that you can't say Merry Christmas? Specifically...someone in your real life? someone here on NT?
I would, and do, and often am the first to say "Merry Christmas."
(deleted)
Why, exactly, are you quoting my words to me?
Be specific.
Bullshit, plain and simple.
I see no one making the claim otherwise.
Had i "specifically" accused you or anyone else here of that, the posts would already be gone.
Yeah, there are people here who regularly bash Christians. No spin to that at all. That's just a fact.
Not sure why you having such trouble with that.
I suppose using derogatory terms such as "thumpers" is a kind expression.
A counter-argument is not bashing. It might contain bashing but that goes beyond the definition of counter-argument.
In and of itself, offering a counter to an argument is not bashing.
You effectively said that bashing is bashing.
And now you do the same with disagreement. Disagreement in and of itself is not an attack. One must add attack language. Thus you have stated that an attack is an attack.
Think about this Texan, one could make a supporting argument and include bashing within it. One could also agree and weave bashing into the agreement.
Stop trying to mess with the meaning of common words.
Good grief man, don't just chop off the context. Here is Sandy's next (and critically important) sentence which qualifies her meaning:
Use common sense. Obviously Sandy is not claiming that on the entire planet nobody bashes Christians. Cherry-picking a single sentence to create a strawman is intellectually dishonest.
Okay, over the years .... family, friends, random acquaintances, teachers, profs, smartasses online, etc, etc
Try this sometime this holiday season. Go to a place where you usually say Happy Holidays and say Merry Christmas instead. See what happens. I'm not saying people will tell you not to say Merry Christmas but the uncomfortable index meter will likely start pegging ....
I for one think it is ridiculous that i have places i need to say Happy Holidays for people to be comfortable or Merry Christmas for people to be comfortable and i'm expected to know the difference.
Absolutely ridiculous in both cases
Some people have had horrible experiences with a specific type of Christian church and/or cult and it has colored their world view. Why don't you consider that the next time that word offends you? As a kind, caring, Christian as I know you are, I really shouldn't have to remind you
So am I. It's a habit that I'm not ashamed of because I grew up saying it. And living in the south I don't know people of other faiths so it has really become a habit
I think this is something we will need to simply accept. As the nation grows more religiously diverse we necessarily will see the dominance of Christianity wane. Christmas, since that is our focus, will need to be viewed in more general terms (not simply a Christian holiday) or we will continue to move to more inclusive language for the population such as "Seasons Greetings" / "Happy Holidays".
Living here in the South, I always say Merry Christmas. Saying Happy Holidays around here is sure to start a ruckus
Quotes?
We have all had our own horrible experiences in life. Most educated adults know not to stereotype and bash an entire group.
You now nothing about me so please do not talk out of your ass about me.
Same. To my knowledge, there are no Jewish people in my county. I have seen a few people I believe are Muslims and Hindus, but not very many. The vast majority are Christians, and I know a few atheists.
The teachers have a tough gig. Caught between a rock and a hard spot.
Your condescending replies are not desired by me, so please use it on someone else.
You won't be getting a specific answer to that question.
Ah, so, a term of employment from an agency of a government that is not supposed to endorse one religion over another, especially with a captive audience of children?
And I'm quite sure that your daughter was allowed to call it whatever she wanted, especially at home.
Some employers prefer to be religiously neutral, as their customers may be followers of religions other than Christianity. So they have their employees use religiously neutral greetings, especially if they are located in culturally diverse areas. That's just good for business.
Of course, after they clock out, those employees can use whichever they want in their non-business interactions.
Trout said, as a kind and caring Christian
You say, don't talk out your ass about me....
Ok, I guess calling someone a kind and caring Christian is a bad thing...
Fitting I guess.
That is another word you misuse. Every time I show you to be wrong you deem it as 'condescending'.
That was rude. I don't even know what brought that on.
I know of atheists where I work and I don't think they care. There are some Muslims and maybe one Hindu that I know of. But pretty much everyone is Christian
Agree but diversity is not the one way street many people try to make it.
Lol .... it pisses me off just as much when someone gives me shit about saying Happy Holidays and when they do it for saying Merry Christmas.
Everyone just needs to R E L A X ...... live and let live i say.
Some people would probably wish we would ignore those attacks, as it destroys the narrative that it isn't happening.
You can pretend you aren't as long as you like, and I'll continue to point it out.
Your approval isn't necessary.
Why get pissed off?
If they would acknowledge all holidays, that would be fine. But I think we all know they don't.
I was going to just say why not but since you and i turned over a new leaf right?
Because it shouldn't matter which you say. That's just some more judgemental, sanctimonious bullshit when people call you out on stuff like that.
I say walk away and go get another beer. Life is too short to be in a perpetual snit...except when I'm driving
Stop with the sweeping generalizations please ....
Good advice, that i follow at lot .... but not always.
Flag it if it bothers you.
A better tactic would be to not make comments that are easily shown to be wrong.
Nah, i usually leave that for others and you know it.
So, either flag it, or deal with me saying it.
If i wanted to, i already would have. Don't need instructions.
That said, if you don't like MY comments feel free to flag them.
Otherwise they remains as is.
Neither do I, Sparty, and yet you presumed to issue instructions. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I was not the first to issue instructions, BTW. That was you.
Maybe, but I am finding that simply ignoring condescending people will work better for me, especially those intent on having the last word.
Thanks Kathleen.
I couldn’t have better described the content of the post we are responding to. Well said! 🥳👍👏🎄
Exactly! Well said and right on!
bravo! 👍👏
'We' know.
I still make a point of Calling it Christmas vacation and Easter vacation instead of the seasonal alternatives.
The bottom line on this subject…
Reminds of when it was said that it’s possible that a god exists… but, the only God that can not possibly exist is the one of the Bible that Christians believe in. It’s the only “God” that can not possibly exist….
Fantasy land here XX? The gods that cannot exist —as defined— are those whose definitions are self-contradictory.
That is how it works. That which is defined as a contradiction cannot logically exist —as defined—.
Where I work it’s not even an issue. No one here would tell another to say “winter” break instead of Christmas vacation.
some on the secular left feel it their right to talk down to us theistic conservatives because they can…
That is exactly why the term is used here. It is intended to offend.
And you know that exactly how?
[deleted]
[deleted]
God exists and His Son is The Reason for the ChristMass Season.
Some of that is because the secular left isn't as inclusive so doesn't understand what we're talking about. Christianity has achieved more inclusive diversity than secular society.
You know, the secular left can join us in enjoying the celebration of the birth of Christ. They don't have to become Christians. Christians are more open minded, they won't exclude non-Christians from the celebration.
Life is too short. Period. Why waste time on the unimportant stuff?
You know, the secular atheists say they celebrate what is important to them. Why should they waste time complaining about Christians celebrating what is important to Christians? Those complaints seem to be a life waster.
They haven't been. That's just another of the many straw men you've raised up here.
Some people here have described how they do just that. They were told they were "fucking it up".
Like the focus of your blog?
Actually, since you did make a massive sweeping generalization, it appears you do need instruction.
Flag it if it bothers you.
I didn’t stutter
No. You trolled.
Flag it if it bothers you.
Again, feel free to flag it if it bothers you.
You overestimate the effectiveness of your trolling.
Lol .... you overestimate the quality of your bait. Not biting. Besides, one can’t overestimate something one hasn’t done in the first place.
That's nice. Prove it!
There's no evidence of any god/s existing.
I reminded a face book friend that holiday is actually an amalgam of the words Holy Day and happy holidays is to wish every one of every faith a blessed season. She didn't argue and actually thanked me for telling her that
Yup. "Happy holidays" covers it all. It is wishing somebody a merry Christmas, among all the other holidays celebrated this time of year. To me, it's just an easy way to cover all the bases.
Christmas is a religious holiday.
The new modern tradition is to recount the history of the holiday season; solstice celebrations, pagan celebrations, celebrations in ancient Egyptian, Middle Eastern, Greek, and Roman cultures. That history emphasizes the religious roots of the Christmas holiday.
The Christmas holiday has always been about religious celebrations since before recorded history. Stonehenge was constructed to celebrate what we call the Christmas holiday.
The 'War on Christmas' is an attempt to secularize the holiday. Christmas, or whatever the hell you want to call it, has never, ever been a secular holiday for thousands of years. Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration throughout human history. Christmas is a holy day, no matter what religious beliefs are celebrated. Secular atheists can make no claim on Christmas as their holiday. There is no freedom from religion on Christmas.
For some, not for everyone. You recognize that, right?
Our nation is growing less Christian each year. The holiday will either grow more inclusive or will be marginalized. This is a force of nature, Nerm, nobody has to do anything for this to occur.
It is now both a religious and secular holiday. And the religious part - well, the religion co-opted the traditions of other religions and pasted the birth of Jesus onto them. That is the history. Recounting the history isn't bashing. Knowing facts isn't bashing.
It is very interesting that you equate knowledge with bashing.
Christmas has always been a religious holiday. The religious beliefs, traditions, and celebrations have changed throughout history but the holiday as a time for religious celebration has never changed.
Are you claiming that secularism is a religion?
Our nation is growing less religious each year.
Christians aren't demanding that everyone celebrate as they do. But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.
Secular atheism is not a religion. And mass consumption to satisfy greed is not a religious practice.
You can call it a religious holiday, I call it another day of the year where I do all the cooking and cleaning up and pretend to make merry.
It only gets fun for me when somebody breaks out Cards Against Humanity
Who's stopping them?
You can make the claim all you like, Nerm. Others will recognize that the religion made up some things (date of Jesus's birth, for example), and co-opted some others (Christmas trees, for example). It might always have been a religious celebration, but it wasn't always your religion's celebration. Before that, it was a pagan celebration.
If no religion can claim sole ownership (and they can't), then nonbelievers can celebrate it, too.
And they can do so with as much or as little consumption as they like, as Christians always have. I believe Christians also like to give gifts, yes? Sometimes extravagant ones.
Who's trying to change the date of Christmas?
Nobody. Just more vague claims of persecution that isn't happening.
What is happening is a bashing of all religious celebration on the holy day. The history is that the holiday has always been a time for religious celebration.
You may want to divert attention onto Christians but the 'War on Christmas' is a war on all religions. Christmas is a time for pagan Yule, too. And those pagan religious traditions, beliefs, and practices have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday.
Meeting under the mistletoe is a religious tradition. Decking the halls with holly is a religious tradition. The Yule tree is a religious tradition. Those aren't Christian religious traditions yet they are part of the religious celebrations during the Christmas holiday.
Secular atheists who are claiming freedom from religion. There is no freedom of religion during a holiday that has always been about religious celebration.
You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
"Bashing" would be heckling people marching in Christmas parades, or turning the water hose on Christmas carolers. Boycotting "A Christmas Story" (a cardinal sin, in my book), or purposely ruining Christmas dinner.
Even just objecting to the celebration of Christmas could be construed as "bashing".
And nobody here is doing any of that. It is ridiculous to claim that Christmas is being bashed.
Of course they aren't Christian. Which is why it is ridiculous when some Christians claim sole ownership of December 25th. A lot of those traditions weren't theirs to start with, and they have no room to get in a snit when other people either point that out, or choose to indulge in those traditions without tacking on the mistaken traditions (Jesus's birthdate) of another religion.
Of course there is. Unless you think it's ok for you to be forced to fast during Ramadan. After all, that has always been a religious celebration, too.
Nobody drags me to Midnight Mass, and nobody forces you to fast during Ramadan. Freedom from religion.
I mean, you do realize that them choosing not to celebrate (if they so choose) has no effect on you, right? That their freedom from religion doesn't lock you out of your church on Christmas day?
Not for everyone.
A truly stupid question that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote.
Sure, and they have every right to do so.
Correct. Again, why do you make statements like this? I have not suggested atheism is a religion so why bring in this strawman from thin air? Hello?
And yet again, who claims it is? Strawman after strawman with you.
As far as I can tell, the religious and non religious generally celebrate the holiday in the same ways...
I do everything except pray or go to church.
Tree, lights, gifts, carols, big dinner and my parents' house, Santa gifts for the little ones, Christmas movies (not those sappy Hallmark ones, thank you very much).
For much of it that is true. I have lived among Christians my entire life and in my circle the most religious thing I see is going to church. Other than the Midnight Mass, etc. the rest of the time is spent on decorations (albeit some religious), gifting, partying, etc.
One is living in a reality of their own choosing to believe that Christmas time, as a whole, is predominantly spent in religious consideration. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I have an Aunt and Uncle that are Mormons.
They don't celebrate Christmas or even birthdays.
So I guess I can say, some Christian people do not celebrate Christmas.
Jesus' birth is the Christian specific celebration. All the other religious traditions have been incorporated into the holiday to include them; not to exclude them.
A Christmas tree is not a Christian tradition. That's a pagan religious tradition. Christians have included (not excluded) that religious tradition. Christians make a Yule tree a Christmas tree by placing a Christmas star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel on top but it's still a pagan religious tradition.
Lighting candles is not a Christian tradition. Caroling is not a Christian tradition. Feasting is not a Christian tradition. Those religious traditions have been included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations. Those traditions were not co-opted to be Christian traditions; they were included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations to welcome and include the religious traditions of many faiths and religious traditions.
If Christians wanted the holiday to be strictly a Christian holiday then those other religious traditions would be excluded. But that is not what has happened. Christians may not follow the rituals and practices of other faiths but Christians have incorporated parts of those traditions into their own celebrations to include them and not to exclude them.
That's an argle-bargle argument trying to change the subject. I am Christian. It is my religious tradition to greet people with 'Merry Christmas'. That's not intended to offend; that's intended to practice my religion. If you are offended by my saying 'Merry Christmas' then you are offended by my religion. And if you tell me I should say 'Happy Holidays' then you are insulting my religion and my religious traditions.
I do not expect you to greet me with 'Merry Christmas'; especially if you are not a Christian. But if you tell me I cannot practice my religion because you are offended then you are calling for Holy War - or - Jihad, if I understand the Muslim meaning.
Yes, for everyone. What we call Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration. What we call Christmas has never, ever been a secular holiday throughout all of human history.
Rewriting history won't change that history. What we call Christmas has always been a time of religious celebration for everyone.
Christmas is not and never has been a holiday for secular atheists. Period.
Then maybe they should have chosen a day when he was born. It wasn't in December.
And they can choose not to be included. Christianity doesn't get to take over their traditions and then claim exclusive ownership of them.
Of course it's not. It's a direct response to
Nobody is stopping you from celebrating Christmas on December 25th. But you likewise don't get to tell anybody else that they can't honor their own religious traditions, even if those traditions include those Christianity subsumed. Pagans get to celebrate Yule, without a thought of Jesus. Jews get to celebrate Hanukkah, without a thought of Jesus.
Nobody is telling you that. They're just saying you don't own winter.
And nobody has said that, either. You're stirring up a fight because you're offended about something that only you have said.
Or, perhaps, other religions could be as open minded as Christians.
As I stated before, secular atheists are attempting to stop all religious celebrations and turn Christmas into a secular holiday.
The Christian celebration is focused on the birth of Jesus. Secular atheists are threatened by public displays of a plastic baby Jesus and are attempting to prohibit the public display of the only reason for the Christian celebration.
The White House hosts a number of different religious celebrations this time of year - except - display of the nativity. The nativity is the one and only reason for Christian celebration of the holiday. The nativity is the religious tradition that is being excluded from holiday celebrations.
Since when are some christians open minded?
No worries then since they're not doing that.
For christians maybe. But not for everyone.
Wrong. They simply want to make sure everyone gets equal time in the spotlight in the public.
This is not true, Nerm. Nobody is trying to stop you from having a religious celebration.
Perhaps you can be open-minded enough to allow atheists to have a secular celebration embracing the traditions Christianity co-opted from other religions without deciding that it's "bashing". The way I celebrate doesn't need to affect your celebration at all.
The Establishment Clause prevents you from putting your nativity on the courthouse lawn, but has no problem with you having one on your own front lawn or that of your church. If you want nativities on public land, you get Baphomets on public land. Are you open-minded enough to fund a Baphomet display, Nerm?
If you aren't a Christian, why does the date carry so much importance for you?
What other religions celebrate December 25th every year?
It seems to me that it should matter to those who worship him. I'd think they'd want to get the date right.
It doesn't matter that much to me personally. But it's amusing that early church leaders chose that date because it coincided or approximated the dates of the rituals of other religions. They basically stole a date, and their later followers are pissed that others are not just going along with the theft.
The other religions were those of agrarian societies, which tend to worship the sun. Winter solstice is an important day in many sun-worshipping religions. Sol Invictus, in particular, was celebrated on December 25th, and the officially recognized cult worshipping him competed with Christianity.
There was also Saturnalia, held from December 17th to the 23rd. Its traditions were imitated in Twelfth Night celebrations.
Some people still consider it traditional to put coins in cakes or Christmas puddings. My mother always put a silver dollar in cooked cabbage on New Year's Day for luck.
So a lot of those "Christian" traditions weren't really Christian at all. They were pagan. Now, I doubt most pagans really object to Christians having Christmas trees or putting coins in their food, but some do object to self-righteousness about stolen traditions ("It's a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree!") or a party atmosphere. Those traditions involved a good party, and if you (generic "you", of course) steal a tradition, you don't get to whitewash it and insist that others abide by your whitewashed version.
Shouldn't be any concern for anyone not a Christian.
Seems to matter to you, as you keep talking about it. The date is still the date, and any religion can choose to use that date for anything they want. In Christianity, it is the date we celebrate the birth of Christ. Now, if other religions celebrate something other than the birth of Christ on that date, then they are celebrating something OTHER than Christmas. Pissed off? Get real.
It wouldn't be, if some Christians weren't so insistent that only their views be honored.
Of course they are. But if you have a Christmas tree, you're not celebrating the birth of Christ with it. You're celebrating Yule, which is dedicated to Odin. You should know what you're celebrating, if you're going to be so vocal in your criticism of others' celebrations.
Wait--aren't you arguing the same thing--that you want others' views "honored"???? I have seen no one here arguing that only their views be followed.
Look, I know what Christmas celebrates, and so do you. It celebrates the birth of Christ. Spin it however you want, but that is simply the unvarnished truth of the matter.
I am not criticizing what others celebrate, just pointing out what Christmas is. Let's get THAT straight.
Some do every year with the "war on Christmas" myth, and the insistence on "Merry Christmas" over "Happy Holidays" - I posted a link somewhere on this page about who gets offended over what, and I'm betting there aren't many pagans in the "don't tell me to have a Happy Holiday" crowd. Some are ticked that school holidays are called "winter vacation". They want it to be called "Christmas break".
Yes, I know what Christmas celebrates. And decorated trees aren't celebrating Christmas. Those who insist on strictly Christian celebrations of Christmas should do as the Puritans did, and eschew decorated trees for Christmas. But some seem to want it both ways.
I'm aware that those who want only their views honored would be fine with that.
Using non-Christian traditions.
Nope, historical fact. Unless you can point us all to the Bible verses specifying decorated trees, mistletoe, holly, etc.
We don’t celebrate Christmas on December 21
You know that many of those holidays approximated the winter solstice (which, BTW, isn't always December 21st), yes?
Also, winter solstice fell on December 25th on the Julian calendar.
Never good enough. It’s like a doctrine of the militant secular progressive religion to impose itself upon others and talk down to those of lesser faiths than theirs.
Quite a few people have trouble with it being called "Winter Break". They, in ever-so-Christlike a tone, call the people who recognize other holidays "snowflakes" and tell them to "get over it; this is a Christian nation."
We see it happening. And then laugh at the whole "Christians are marginalized" bullshit.
What a fear-ridden, distorted reality you describe.
The war on Christmas by the secular progressives is real and their denial of the war they are waging against it and thanksgiving and Easter only make their war all the more obvious to those of us defending the Reason for the Season and the traditions around them.
Pretty much thoroughly debunked all over this discussion. You're making false accusations.
Only in your mind.
Such paranoid delusions.
It is pathetic watching this melodramatic exclamation of oppression in a nation that is 65% Christian.
No. I’m telling the truth about the religious nature of certain Holy Days. And of how militant secularists are waging all out war on those days.
Whiners have to whine, it's the only thing besides lying that makes them happy in their limited universe.
"Militant secularists"
He got off bail free ...... too small of a package i hear ....
out by nightfall to jingle his balls again, oops I mean bells
Ok, that was funny...
Why would anyone be offended by the words "Merry Christmas" even if they don't believe in Christmas?
I think it is because it excludes them. I can certainly see how a Jewish person would grow tired of Merry Christmas and all the religious songs, banners, images, etc. regarding the birth of Jesus. Same holds true for all the others who do not believe in the claims of Christianity.
Personally, I am not offended because I am very much used to living in a Christian dominated society. There are bigger concerns ...
Besides, I like Christmas.
I like the lights.
I like the spirit ... the gathering of family ... generally a good thing.
Me, too. I get a little seasonal affective disorder in winter. It's dark when I leave for work in the morning, and dark before I get home, at least approaching solstice. The lights cheer me up a bit.
Because it is ignoring the other faiths' holidays, which is inconsiderate.
Happy Hanukah, Perrie!
please tell me I spelled that correctly
Thanks, Trout...
And no worries about the spelling. Besides the issue that Hanukah coming too late or too early, there is about a dozen ways to spell it... and besides, I'm dyslexic so it all looks the same to me, LOL.
I guess I am kind of a Grinch.
I don't say anything to anybody, except hello and a nod.
I never say 'Happy Christmas' or whatever to anybody.
If they say it to me I usually end up saying something like, you too....
Maybe just a tiny bit of Grinchiness, but certainly nothing like the 'real' thing.
This is weird...I'm looking at my wall calendar and it tells me when Kwanzaa begins but not Hanukah and Eid-Al (?), a Muslim holiday celebrated near Christmas and or am I just talking out of my ass because I don't know a blessed thing about Islam?
Hanukkah was unusually early this year. It has come and gone.
Figures. How is the holiday determined every year. I know why Easter falls on different Sundays
I'm not sure. The Hebrew calendar is a bit different from the Gregorian. This year, it started November 28th at sunset and ended at sunset on December 6th.
Thanks for the info
Mardi Gras changes with lent...
There is a 13th month that shows up ...and wait for this..seven times every nineteen years! I honestly don't expect anyone to remember that. But normally it is very close to Christmas.
Is that like the elusive leap year? I had a friend that was born on leap year.
I don't think I ever heard of the 13th month.
Wow, and I have trouble keeping up with Leap Year.
But the traditions of many faiths have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday. Most of the trappings of the holiday are not Christian traditions.
Lighting candles is not a Christian tradition but has been incorporated into the holiday celebration. That's not an appropriation, that's intended to welcome and include that religious tradition into the holiday celebrations.
Correct. So maybe that trend should continue and Christmas should grow even more inclusive. What stops that from happening, I suspect, are people claiming that Christmas is exclusively a religious holiday:
Maybe Christmas is just a holiday. Times change. Societies evolve.
No Nerm. Christmas incorporated pagan traditions into its traditions to make it more appealing to pagan converts. There are no Jewish traditions involved with Christmas, which is kind of ironic since Jesus was born a Jew, died a Jew, and celebrated Hanukkah.
Lighting candles is a part of many traditions. But the celebration of Christmas, is the celebration of Jesus being born, while the celebration of Hanukkah is the celebration of the Jewish people fighting back against the Greek/ Assyrians, and the miracle of 1 days oil lasting 8 days in the lamp of the eternal light, which represents god everlasting being.
These holidays are not equivalent, share nothing in common, and without Judaism, you would not have Christmas, since that is where Jesus came from. I see no reason to not respect Jews.
Tig,
I see the bumper stickers that say "Keep Christ in Christmas", which solidifies the desire to keep it a religious holiday. I have no problem with that. Just don't disrespect me and blow off my holiday.
For those who want to do a secular Christmas or Hanukkah, fine, but let's not pretend the roots are not religious.
Christmas is a religious holiday. For those who aren't Christians, it is just a day.
Or Hanukkah, 100% agreement... the two holidays are not mutually exclusive, they represent the same thing (God is supreme in everything) but are based on completely different historical perspectives...
They may well be religious, but they are not necessarily Christian.
Is someone pretending that the roots are not religious?
Not true, for those who are not Christians (and even for many Christians) it is a holiday season with all sorts of traditions that people enjoy. It is not "just a day".
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. If you don't believe He is the Son of God, then there is nothing for you to celebrate on Christmas
Well, yes, since the holiday incorporated pagan traditions.
The Jewish Month of Adar I ...
Just in case anyone is interested...
I know you were not. It was just a manner of speech.
It was more directed to Christmas becoming secular in nature.
Such a pesty month, LOL.
Very true, and the modern pagan tradition has the holiday running from the day after the last Thursday in November to January 1st each year... and is celebrated by spending as much money as one can afford... (while paying lip service to traditions) the commercial version runs from November first, each year.... which is come to be the "Normal" holiday
Sorry, Texan, but that is not how people operate. Get used to it because most of the time spent celebrating Christmas is truly not religious. And irreligious people celebrate the Christmas holiday.
I recommend you not worry about it; there is nothing you can do about it and the trend, I predict, is that Christmas will continually be less of a Christian holiday over time.
How do you keep track of that?
Exactly. Unfortunately, it seems that some wanted it to be a "no takebacks" sort of appropriation. Non-Christians are no longer allowed to celebrate according to their traditions, if those traditions were co-opted by Christianity. If they do so, they are "bashing".
Thank goodness most Christians have more sense.
Just because non-religious things occur on Christmas has nothing to do with it being the religious celebration of the birth of Christ. Pretending it isn't religious holiday is silliness.
For people having no religion, that is simply a load of crap. Since they don't believe in Christ, it is another day to them.
If and when hell freezes over will be when I seek your recommendations on anything at all.
It is a religious holiday for most (or at least many), but not for everyone. Get used to it.
Again, get used to it. Irreligious people will continue to celebrate Christmas as they see fit. Christmas is not strictly a religious holiday and it grows less with time; take off your blinders.
Childish.
It is a religious holiday for Christians. If people aren't Christians, it isn't even a holiday.
I am used to people knowing that Christmas is a religious holiday and not arguing about it.
Then they really aren't celebrating Christmas at all, are they?
Yes, it is strictly a religious holiday. That is the whole part you choose to ignore.
No blinders, I know what Christmas is and don't pretend otherwise.
Perhaps, but communicating at the same level is necessary at times. This was one of them.
So some people from a church are going to come to my house, steal my tree, make me go to work, and pitch all my presents in a dumpster?
They can try.
Sorry, you will not be able to get your way. That ship has sailed.
I am not ignoring, I am directly commenting on it. Hello? You want to explain the religious significance of Santa Claus and all the related stories and myths?
How is that not inclusive?
Does this mean I can't celebrate Xmas anymore?
It can be inclusive, but not when some folks get offended by knowing those traditions were appropriated, and choose to celebrate without adding in a mistaken birthday.
You come celebrate it with me. We'll eat, drink, watch A Christmas Story, skip church, refuse to say grace over our turkey, and take a drive to look at the lights.
And dare anybody to have a problem with it.
Exactly so.
Sounds like fun...but I have to a Christmas Vacation in there along with A Christmas Story
Christmas Vacation (ad nauseum), It's a Wonderful Life, A Christmas Story.
It's my favorite Xmas movie...don't make fun
Absolutely.
And some would rather celebrate their own religion, without the Christian add-ons.
That is the Christian celebration. And the English tradition of Christ Mass (Old English name Crīstes mæsse) has been overlaid onto the holiday. But this time of year has always been a time of religious celebration; even before Christianity.
So, the Christmas holiday is not exclusively Christian and is not exclusively for celebrating the birth of Jesus. But Christmas, as we call it, has always been a time of religious celebration. And even the Christian celebration has included a wide range of traditions that originated with the practices of other religions. That was intended to be inclusive and not exclusive.
Christians celebrate during the historical time for religious celebration alongside other religions. And Christians have included traditions from other religions into their celebrations to be welcoming and inclusive.
Mine too. Not making fun. I watch it multiple times every year. Sometimes even in the warm months if I get bored. Hell I've watched it twice since Thanksgiving.
Gremlins....
That's a good one, too
They weren't appropriated. They were adopted and included. After a religious tradition has been included in the Christian celebration, Christians don't demand other religions stop those practices.
There's a difference between appropriation and inclusion.
So, Christians still pray to Oestre in the spring?
No, Nerm, they were appropriated. The Christian church wanted the members, and to get those, they adopted the rituals, but they didn't want the gods and goddesses those rituals honored. If it were "adoption", they'd have welcomed other deities. Obviously, they couldn't do that.
The modern secular imperative has become diversity and inclusion. What does that mean? How is inclusion supposed to work?
You've stated that Christmas incorporated pagan traditions. That's incorrect. Those pagan traditions were religious celebrations during this time of year before there were Christians. Jewish religious celebrations during this time of year preceded the birth of Jesus. Christians added their celebration to the mix.
The Christian church is responsible for setting December 25th as the day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. But the holiday season encompasses more than one day. Maybe the holiday season has been called the Christmas season because Christians were inclusive. Maybe Christians were celebrating diversity and inclusion before there was anything like a secular society. Why was incorporating older religious traditions into Christian celebration a bad thing?
Lighting candles is a part of religious tradition. Secular atheists light candles for the light; nothing more. This time of year, throughout history, has been a time of celebrating miracles. The solstice, itself, is miraculous. At a time when lives were short and death common, surviving another year was a miracle. We should not allow ourselves to diminish and forget the importance of religious traditions this time of year. We really do need to celebrate miracles.
Who claims the different religious celebrations are equivalent? Who says only one religious tradition should be celebrated this time of year?
Christians do not practice Judaism. But Christians have incorporated bits and pieces of Judaism into Christian practices as recognition of that religious heritage. Christians have not excluded the Jews; Jews have excluded themselves from Christianity.
Yes the pagan traditions and Jewish celebrations predated Christians. These were incorporated into Christmas. What is the problem you see? New traditions, celebrations and beliefs often incorporated older traditions, celebrations and beliefs. You even state this in your last sentence. What meaning do you have for the verb ' incorporate': " Take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include ".
And then at the end you contradict your quoted sentences:
You are saying the same thing that I am, but start if off by saying I am wrong. I will correct you on one thing. Christians did not incorporate Jewish traditions, only pagan ones.
Christmas is a lovely holiday, but it is a religious one celebrating the birth of Christ. This has nothing to do with Hanukkah. Jews don't want to take away Christmas, but they do want to be recognized, and hence why if you don't know what someone is, Happy Holidays is appropriate. If you do know what someone is, wish them the appropriate holiday. It's just a matter of consideration.
And herein lies the whole problem. Why do Jews have to be Christians? Why can't they be what they are? And given that they are a separate religion, why is it so hard to respect those traditions.
And may I remind you, that Christmas has nothing to do with Hanukkah. It has nothing to do with the events that are celebrated during that holiday, so therefore, Christmas can't be inclusive to them.
Nerm, I have taken the time to explain this because I don't believe you mean to contrary. I don't know if you live in an area where you would be exposed to, too many Jews, so you might not get this but where I live, we respect each other, and so we handle this issue the way I described above.
Including the rituals while denying, and sometimes even punishing, the beliefs behind those rituals isn't inclusion, Nerm.
"We want to welcome you, and that decorated tree is very pretty. Bring your tree, but your gods have to stay behind and you have to recognize ours" isn't really all that inclusive.
it is silly at BEST to say Christmas is not a religious holiday.
Think about it--what does Christmas signify?
Does it signify anything to Jews? Muslims? Buddhists? Atheists?
Now, you m ay very well enjoy doing what you have seen others do on Christmas if you aren't a Christian, but that sure doesn't mean you are celebrating Christmas.
You are always free to "celebrate" whatever it is you want on December 25th, but if you aren't a Christian, you aren't celebrating Christmas. I won't pretend such bullshit, however.
Well that's BS! If it's not my birthday but I go to a birthday party, am I celebrating a birthday?
if you were going for obtuseness, congrats, really nailed it!
Don't get all worked up about it Texan, we all have the freedom to celebrate Christmas how we wish. You can spend your entire day on the 25th praying, worshiping, etc. and that is fine with me. But others who wish to celebrate Christmas with family, gifts, decorations, meals, etc. are going to do so regardless of your approval.
Christmas is a religious holiday but it grows less and less so as time passes. And I suspect this trend will continue. So some of us will enjoy the Santa Claus dimension, the wreaths, candy canes, lights, presents, etc. even though we do not buy the religious storyline.
And you really don't get it!
Yes, but apparently, if we don't celebrate it the way he thinks we should, we're not really celebrating.
Where does Sandy state that Christmas is not a religious holiday?
Wasn't asking your permission.
Wasn't ever a question of my approval, spectacular way to miss the entire point.
If you aren't Christian, what exactly are you celebrating that has to do with the birth of Christ? Please be specific in relating your celebration to the birth of Christ.
That has been one of my points the entire time. Glad we can dispense yapping about THAT at least now that we acknowledge that it IS a religious holiday!
Which has zero to do with the meaning of Christmas and what it signifies.
Without Christ, there is no Christmas. This isn't really all that difficult,.
Apparently you have chosen to misunderstand what I have written.
I'm having my Christmas tree, my Christmas turkey, my gifts, and my Christmas movies. It really doesn't matter to me how you view that. It doesn't affect you, and your views on it have no effect on me or others.
Also, I never said it wasn't religious. But most of the traditions don't come from the Christian religion, and the ones that do were just sort of assigned by decree to the date, and glommed onto the stuff I like. The feasts, tree, gift-giving, etc. - they all predated that decree. So, in a way, I'm celebrating several religions. Just not yours. Sorry, not sorry.
Nothing. Buy a vowel, I explained this to you. You are so damned busy typing your simplistic, predictable "not asking permission" cliche bullshit replies that you do not appear to have time to carefully read my reply.
Too bad for you then Texan because you do not get to dictate how everyone perceives and celebrates Christmas. Get used to it.
I, et. al. have been stating it is a religious holiday at its core the entire seed. Pay attention.
Your problem is that you have your panties in a bunch because others celebrate Christmas for the factors beyond its religious core. Don't get so worked up over it, there is not a damn thing you can do to change this trend. Go ahead an fight a war against Santa Claus and all the other dimensions of Christmas that have emerged over the millennia; you will be wasting your time.
So you aren't celebrating Christmas, as I have maintained all along.
[deleted]
Happy Hannukah Perrie (and happy Hannukah to all of my Jewish friends).
And happy Festivus to George.
To all of us, it seems. This must be the Airing of the Grievances.
Yes, that's the dictionary argument. I should have said Christians included parts of those older religious traditions into their celebration. So, yes, you got me: I used the wrong language. The dictionary wins again.
Why would Christians including parts of those older religious traditions into their celebrations be a bad thing? The claim was that Christians included those traditions to be more appealing to pagan converts. That frames the message as a competition between Christianity and other religions. How is inclusion supposed to work? Pagans converted to Christianity and brought those older religious traditions with them. Christians allowed people to bring traditions that were important to them into the Christian celebration.
The Christian celebration adapted to be inclusive. Pagan converts could still practice pagan traditions; they weren't excluded. Those converting to Christianity can bring their traditions into Christian celebrations. Jewish converts can still practice Jewish traditions as part of Christian celebrations. The Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus but that doesn't preclude other traditions as part of the celebration. If worshippers of Baphomet convert to Christianity and want to top a Yule tree with Baphomet to celebrate the birth of Jesus, that is acceptable. What would be unacceptable is replacing Jesus with Baphomet.
That is the Christian celebration of Christmas. Obviously the Christian celebration is not the Hanukkah celebration. Christians will greet with 'Merry Christmas' because that is part of the Christian celebration.
You've indicated that a greeting of 'Happy Holidays' is appropriate. Why not 'Happy Hanukkah'? A greeting of 'Happy Holidays' is a perfectly secular greeting that removes religious celebration from the season. 'Happy Hanukkah' would be as inappropriate as 'Merry Christmas'. Isn't that a practice of exclusion rather than inclusion? Is inclusion supposed to be based upon exclusion?
If we cannot share our traditions then what does inclusion mean? How is inclusion supposed to work?
Jews don't have to be Christians. The point is that if a Jew chooses to convert to Christianity, they are not required to give up their traditions. Christianity adapts to traditions brought into Christianity. Inclusion respects those traditions.
That is fantastic you are celebrating other holidays on Christmas.
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. If you are celebrating something OTHER than that, then you are not celebrating Christmas but are celebrating some other religious holiday.
Here it is in black and white:
Christmas Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
No, no, a thousand times no. Christians are not allowed to share their celebration of the nativity because secular atheists feel threated by a plastic baby Jesus. Christians are chastised for greeting with 'Merry Christmas' because secular atheists are offended.
If Christians are excluded from sharing their traditions then what does inclusion mean? How is secular diversity and inclusion supposed to work?
If you're following the traditions of other religions, so are you
Um, this didn't even really address TiG's comment.
I'm an atheist.
I love Christmas. It's the time of year when retailers finally show a profit. That is extremely important to the US economy.
I always have a Christmas tree andI even have a "NOEL train" (except mine ia a "LEON train").
I don't have to believe in that "virgin birth" BS to enjoy Christmas and I don't need to have an invisible fiend.
Not at all. You're the one determining if someone is really celebrating or not.
If you think I'm being obtuse, then clearly you did not get it!
When shown to be wrong, you toss out the usual "condescending" accusation. You make that complaint so often, it's lost all meaning.
So what? Why is that a concern? I know what Christmas is about.
Do you think for one second that it is significant in any way?
Smart move, you routinely fail to formulate a cogent rebuttal and only end up getting yourself worked up into a frenzy and declaring 'condescension'. Now do us all a favor and actually keep me on ignore so that we do not have to read your spectacularly lame rebuttals.
No.why do you persist in misunderstanding what I write?
I am not telling anyone what they are celebrating, just pointing out what they are not celebrating ---the birth of Christ.
The ignore comment was not directed to you yet, so butt out.
What are you talking about? It is as if you wrote your rebuttal without even reading my comment.
We do not all have the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as you claim @20.3.61
I know what Christmas is about, too. But I'm not the one downing others' celebrations as "not Christmas" while simultaneously celebrating holidays other than Christmas, myself.
That's you.
what more do xtians want exactly?
We have been telling you that we are not celebrating the birth of Christ. Hello? We are celebrating Christmas for all parts other than its religious core. Like I said, get used to it because I suspect even most Christians spend the vast majority of their time during the Christmas season engaging in the various rituals (trees, decorations, food, presents, Santa Claus, etc.) and precious little even thinking about Jesus. (Sure holds true for the Christians in my family and friends.) Going to midnight mass and then focusing on all other aspects of Christmas is not predominantly celebrating the birth of Jesus.
So you have your panties in a bunch because there are others who spend zero time thinking about Jesus versus 'very little' time.
Public forum. It is not your place to limit discussion.
Bullshit Nerm, the USA is predominantly Christian (65-%). Don't even attempt to play victim here.
I celebrate Christmas.
Don't care what others celebrate or when.
Best reread my pist, you obviously misunderstood it, as I have no power to limit discussion nor the desire to.
I am not a mod here.
We are not all allowed the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as TiG claimed.
If a religious celebration must be done in private to avoid offending, then how do we share our traditions? If we are not allowed to share our traditions with others then what does inclusion really mean?
Who decides what to include and what to exclude? Who decides what traditions should be shared and what traditions are not allowed on the public square?
You told Gordy to "butt out". See that right there in your post?
Bullshit again. The USA is predominantly Christian (65-%). Don't even attempt to play victim here.
I doubt many atheists celebrate Easter. The Easter bunny, etc. does not have nearly the draw of the Christmas tradition.
And atheists celebrating Christmas are not celebrating the birth of Jesus but rather celebrating the holiday and its many traditions that are well outside of religious worship.
Think of celebrating Thanksgiving. How many people really are celebrating the roots of that holiday? Thanksgiving nowadays is a short holiday where we get together and have a great meal and happy times.
Tolerance would suffice, but we know how scary religious people are to nonbelievers
The same can be said of Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labor Day. What, then, are we really celebrating on those holidays? What have we gained? What have we lost?
Athiests do NOT feel threatened by "a plastic baby Jesus" and most of us say "merry Christmas" too.
Atheists do NOT feel threatened when Christians tell us we are going to a non-existent Hell.
Atheists are NOT afraid of your non-existent impotent God.
There isn't an exact xtian. There's more diversity and inclusion in Christianity than there is in secular society.
The Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. So, Christians don't want to be maligned, disparaged, and ridiculed because secular atheists feel threatened by a plastic baby Jesus. The nativity is the one and only reason for the Christian celebration. Yet the nativity is deliberately excluded from the public square.
If the Christian tradition must be done in private to avoid offending then what does inclusion really mean? How is secular inclusion supposed to work?
Good, now you see my point.
Writes the guy who is all bent out of shape because some atheists celebrate Christmas.
Among other holidays.
Then you wouldn't have told anyone to "butt out".
I like a Lindt chocolate bunny.
And jelly beans, especially the black ones.
And ham.
Because so many people are also afraid of a Baphomet.
What do you have against religions being treated equally by government? No Baphomets > no plastic baby Jesus.
If the USA is predominantly Christian then majority rule favors Christians, doesn't it? The democratic majority gets to choose? Right? Isn't that how secular democracy is supposed to work?
Or is religion excluded from democracy by secular discrimination?
Nobody is trash-talking Jesus. For the most part, we like his message. It's not his fault that his birthday got dishonestly pasted onto a bunch of different religious traditions that had nothing to do with him.
Nope. That is prevented by the Bill of Rights, specifically the First Amendment. If it weren't, we'd all get a say on what flavor of Christian you have to be. If it's the Puritan flavor, you'd be jailed for having a Christmas tree. Oliver Cromwell and the English parliament tried that after beheading their king. It turned out to be not very popular.
Flag it and remove it then if it is too upsetting to look at.
Nah, I prefer your behavior to stand for all to see.
Yes, Like New Years, Thanksgiving, Easter, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Flag Day, July 4th, etc.
So?
And Yule, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, and Ostara.
Then that makes it senseless to go on and on about it.
I'm just pointing out that you did indeed do that which you claimed not to have done.
If you don't like that, don't do it.
Then the point is to make holidays pointless. Why do we need government sanctioned pointless days?
You know, Christians don't need a government sanctioned holiday to celebrate Christmas. Removing Christmas as a government sanctioned holiday won't stop the celebration of Christmas. Christians celebrate Easter without a government sanctioned holiday. Maybe it would be wise to remove December 25th from the government's list of pointless holidays.
No, Nerm, the point is to celebrate each holiday as the individual wishes to celebrate the holiday.
We all do not need to conform to your one allowed method of celebration.
You are the one going on and on about it. Have you not noticed?
It is the Christians on this seed who are all bent out of shape. How dare atheists celebrate Christmas in their own way!!! For that matter, by logical extension, how dare anyone (and that includes most Christians in my experience) celebrate Christmas if they do not predominantly celebrate the birth of Jesus and instead are preoccupied with other aspects such as Santa Claus, trees, ornaments, presents, wreaths, lights, displays of Frosty the Snowman, lighted tree shows, egg nog, fire mantel stockings, candles, hot chocolate, party planning ... ?
Get a grip.
it is indeed sad you can't tell the difference between me calling for all people to be quiet on a subject and me telling [removed] to butt out over a comment that wasn't directed to him or you. You seriously can see no difference, which is freaking weird to me.
Anything else to say about it will be the last word, so feel free.
How ridiculous that crap is!
I told you I celebrate Christmas.
What part isn't plain enough?
SMH and LOL
Then what's the atheists' beef with Christians celebrating Christmas? Why are atheists so offended by something that does not threaten them and something they do not believe?
Are evangelical atheists prosthelytizing for non-belief and no faith?
You are the one complaining about celebrating Christmas. The atheists here have all (I think all) stated that we celebrate Christmas. It is the theists who are all complaining about it.
You should read what is taking place in your seed.
Those in the general public who complain about Christmas are no doubt complaining about the public display of religious symbols. While that has never bothered me given our traditions are so entrenched in Christianity already, there is a constitutional case to be made for the display.
But if you want questions answered by those participating then you are asking questions that have been answered and the answers have stated that there is no 'beef' with Christians celebrating Christmas. Have fun. Knock yourselves out. Atheists here are also celebrating so be well and happy.
Ok, if you can honestly say you eschew the pagan traditions, don't have a tree, and celebrate on his actual birthday (which you don't know), then I'll believe you.
Oh, and please, do tell us how Easter came to be named.
It seems to me very unhealthy to worry so much about what's being celebrated in somebody else's party. Why not just be happy that folks are happy? No need to be a killjoy by telling people they're not celebrating properly.
Have a nice day.
What is the one allowed method of celebration? Christian celebrations are not that uniform; Christians don't even conform to one method of celebration. You are attempting to claim a restricting expectation that doesn't even exist within Christianity.
How can Christians impose one allowed method of celebration when there isn't a single method of celebration within Christianity? You think ethnic congregations haven't included ethnic traditions in their celebrations? You think a Black congregation can't have a Black baby Jesus in their nativity?
Christianity is far more diverse and inclusive than is secular society. Don't impose secular limitations onto Christianity.
I'm not the one misunderstanding here. You're the one declaring if someone is truly celebrating or not. When challenged on that, you then toss out accusations of being obtuse or condescending.
No, I will not! I know the ignore comment was directed to TiG. But since this is a public discussion forum, then I will reply to posts as I see fit!
Again, if I go to someone's birthday party, am I celebrating their birthday? That's a simple yes-no question.
It is quite glaring too.
What limits would those be?
I wasn't aware there was one.
There is none.
Then they play the victim, then they scream persecution. For example, the imaginary "war on Xmas."
I celebrate Christmas and New Years and have a good time with friends and relatives of various religions and levels of religious intensity or no religious interest.
Just enjoy things, it is a good and happy time of the year and a welcome break from winter and other things. .
they seem to have made a very poor demonstration of that in the last 2 millennia. how is making a holiday exclusive to 1 religion inclusive?
good for them, but xmas has morphed into a national holiday, in a secular america.
tough shit, the 1st amendment is a 2 way street. define "secular atheism".
I see plenty of nativity scenes in residential front yards, private properties, and on church properties, where they belong.
as they should per the establishment clause. america is secular by the constitution, the same document that makes all religions equal to no religion. religious freedom within acceptable social/legal norms of their practice.
religious celebration is a personal choice, not an implied government sanctioned mass marketing campaign for new membership. I don't see any national holidays for all the other religious high holy days on the calendar.
however any secular person that wants to celebrate the holiday wants it to work for them, unless you're implying that only devout xtians should be allowed to celebrate a national holiday, like some are in this seed.
You are the one imposing restrictions so answer the question yourself.
Exactly!
I'm surprised you haven't researched Baphomet given your proclivity for historical accuracy. Baphomet is associated with the history of the Knights Templar from the First Crusade. Baphomet was prominent in the inquisition of the Knights Templar. The charge was that the Knights Templar worshipped Baphomet which came from confessions under torture. Baphomet = Mahomet. The charge was that the Knights Templar had converted to Islam.
Baphomet is a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad.
The depiction of Baphomet (Mahomet) as the Satanic Goat arose during the 19th century with renewed interest in the occult which included suppression and inquisition of the Knights Templar. While likely not intentional, Prophet Muhammad is being depicted as the Satanic Goat.
Then let us display our plastic Jesus on the courthouse lawn. If it doesn't mean anything to you, what do you care?
Why does it mean so much to you that you would have to shove it down other people's throat...
The origin is immaterial. Due to its association with Satanism, accurate or not, it has been denied public display.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
you have a good day.
If public display is 'shoving it down other people's throats' then any public display that offends someone should also be prohibited. Using your argument, the rainbow flag should never be displayed on a public flag pole because that's 'shoving it down other people's throats'.
Inclusive exclusion means nobody gets away with 'shoving it down other people's throats'.
You are comparing against people that have been marginalized.
No matter how many times you all say it, there is no war on Christian people.
It is a made up paranoid delusion.
Well, isn't that the point? You see, the celebration of the birth of Jesus is important to us. But the holiday is all about them by their own admission. They don't like being left out - but - they have excluded themselves from the celebration. We haven't excluded them; they are trying to exclude us from our own celebration.
The celebration of the birth of Jesus is pretty enjoyable. They can join us anytime they want to. The only thing stopping them from joining us is them. That's their choice.
I've never seen a sign at any church that says 'only Christians allowed'.
I usually do.
There is only one true reason for Christmas. It is a specific Holy Day for a specific reason. As to the other holidays that also happen in some proximity to Dec. 25, it’s fine that people who celebrate them do so to their hearts content.
I already told you that I do not care. Read what people write.
I also stated that some would object to public display of a particular religion on constitutional grounds. And that makes very good sense. The state should not favor one religion over another by allowing religious symbols on public sites.
I personally do not care because I am very used to living in a nation with a super-majority of Christians, but that the constitutional point is quite valid.
You get that right?
Now, read what I wrote so that I do not have to yet again correct you when you try to put words in my mouth.
Where did you even come up with this shit?
You are trying to marginalize Christians. That's not as difficult as it sounds because there is more diversity and inclusion in Christianity than in secular society.
There are Christian congregations of every race, creed, and ethnicity. Great diversity unified by Christ. Don't ridicule Christians for achieving an inclusive diversity that secular society hasn't achieved. Maybe secular atheists could learn important lessons from Christians.
Come celebrate the birth of our unifier with us. You don't have to be a Christian.
Nobody is marginalizing anybody except you.
More false accusations. You have never been denied the right to worship as you please. You just can't use government to promote your religion. Same as every other religion.
Equality of treatment under the law is not marginalization.
Do you object to people taking their kids to see Santa Claus, watching The Polar Express while drinking hot chocolate, trimming the tree, lighting the house, exchanging presents, making egg-nog, etc.?
No?
Well when Christians celebrate Christmas, how much of their time during the Christmas season do you think they spend mentioning Jesus? If they are like those I have observed (extremely closely by the way) during my entire life, Jesus is simply part of the process. Basically, Jesus gets his due with Midnight Mass (and equivalent) and a few symbolic gestures such as a manger scene, etc. Almost all time is spent on factors well beyond Jesus.
If someone unfamiliar with Christmas were to observe our celebrations, that individual would no doubt think Christmas is a celebration of Santa Claus.
So while Christmas is, at its core, the celebration of Jesus' birth, do not be so hypocritical as to suggest that Christians spend anything more than a fraction of their time on the religious aspect of Christmas. Atheists spend zero time and Christians spend a little time. Not a huge difference so quit whining.
Then let all religions celebrate in the public square. Wouldn't that be inclusive?
That is one solution, Nerm. I think it is impractical, but it would be more constitutional than allowing merely Christian expression.
Would you care if there is a public lighting of a Menorah? Would you be offended if someone greeted you with 'Happy Hanukkah'? Would you care if pagans gathered to celebrate the solstice?
Personally, it wouldn't bother me if all religions celebrated their traditions on the courthouse lawn. Just don't exclude Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus.
It wouldn't bother me, but there will be objectors, and they may raise enough ruckus to prevent such displays altogether.
And then there are the practical considerations. There are so many religions and so, so many variations on religions. This might be a Pandora's box.
Probably best to leave the public areas secular.
sound advice..So perfectly well said!
So, history is only selectively important as long as 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'?
Seems like anything hateful is immaterial unless it can be used to offend Christians. Explain the history of Baphomet to Muslims and ask them if they're offended. Or would Muslims being offended be immaterial, too?
You know, the Muslim call to prayer happens in the United States. too. And that's protected no matter who is offended.
It's not made from the courthouse cupola.
And if you don't think there would be objections to that, you haven't been paying attention. There have been attempts to block the building of mosques on privately-owned ground. There have been objections to the teaching of Arabic numerals in school, because of the knee-jerk reactions of religious bigots.
Propose using the courthouse as a minaret, and see how far you get.
Yes, Saturnalia, which predates Xmas but shares many similarities. Then later on with Yule.
Specific to christians. But not specific to everyone, nor does it have to be.
[deleted]
You don't have an answer, do you? Sandy just showed your hypocrisy in your whole Christmas is about celebrating Jesus because you know you have a Christmas tree and other pagan traditions when you celebrate.
No it isn't. Any portraits or graven images of Muhummad are strictly forbidden
Atheists don't give a shit about Christians celebrating Christmas.
I celebrate Christmas too. I have a tree and give people gifts. Even donated $500 to a local church that feeds homeless people.
Are evangelical atheists prosthelytizing for non-belief and no faith?
No.
Well, obviously atheists do care about Christians celebrating the nativity. Otherwise secular atheists would not object so strenuously to public displays of the nativity.
Naturally non-Christians don't give a shit about themselves celebrating the nativity; they aren't Christians. Yet those who claim they don't care about celebrating the nativity are militantly opposed to Christians publicly celebrating the nativity.
Atheists only want the Christmas celebrations to be about themselves.
Some do. Don't generalize. The vast majority of atheists go about their lives without such concerns.
Utter ignorance that counters facts.
I'm generalizing about a specific prohibition? We have TiG's permission to display the nativity at the base of the National Christmas Tree.
If you specifically claim that the Constitution forbids it then don't accuse me of generalizing. The Constitution wasn't written only to protect the rights of secular atheists.
Hey Nerm, you claimed that atheists are objecting to the display. I stated that some do, but most do not. Don't lump all atheists into a stereotype when the majority do not correlate with your claim.
You make a claim, are called on it, and then magically switch the focus to the Constitution. If you want to speak of the Constitution then do so. The Constitution arguably does preclude the display of a specific religion on public grounds; it can be argued that that would be favoring a particular religion.
So what is it that you want to discuss: the protests of a minority of atheists or the Constitution?
And here you engage in trolling on your own article.
No shit Nerm. Another strawman from you. I see nobody arguing anything like that.
The lawsuit against nativity scenes on government property was brought by Satanists. Satanists are, of course, theists.
Atheists do NOT believe in Satan.
Umm ... no. The FFRF has been challenging nativity displays. The FFRF claims that the history of social progress in Western civilization has been brought about by people free of religion. (BTW, that's a highly selective fake history.) FFRF has dedicated itself to removing religion (not just Christianity) from the people's right to govern themselves. Only those free from religion (which would be predominantly secular atheists) should have a voice in the affairs of state.
You aren't confusing FFRF with Satanists, are you?
The FFRF along with the ACLU joined several lawsuits filed by various Satanic churches. Here's one example:
Satanic Sculpture Installed At Illinois Statehouse, Just In Time For The Holidays
December 4, 2018
In the Illinois Capitol rotunda this month, several traditions are being celebrated. There's a Nativity scene for Christmas, a menorah for Hanukkah, and then something a little different: an arm holding an apple, with a snake coiled around it.
It's a gift from the Chicago branch of The Satanic Temple . Called "Snaketivity," the work also has a sign that reads "Knowledge Is The Greatest Gift."
Nearby stands a sign in which the state offers a civics lesson — and explains it didn't have much of a choice:
Who cares? Only the triggered that's who.
People can holler it's a festivas for the rest of us at the top of your lungs from the highest rooftop if you want. No skin off my nose.
Just don't come to my Christian celebration and have a problem with Merry Christmas.
That kind of thing makes no reasonable sense to anyone but the triggered.
apparently many fine folks here don't or won't acknowledge that.
Axial tilt is the reason for the season.
Not for Christians.
This Costcomas I'll toss my usual bash with a band of like minded christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, hindus, capitalists, communists, at least one soul with enough orientation defining letters to form a new alphabet, and at least 2 folks who will introduce one and all to the dead ... it will be a merry time with resounding cheers for he or she when with one too many nogs attempts to dance with the tree. There are no presents as we are the presents wrapped in the light of friendship. All else is pablum for the "can I have more of mine please".
I want to celebrate with you!
My mother was Greek Orthodox and she taught me to always have an empty chair for the wanderer ... of late that chair has been the unedited 1914 New Century Dictionary wrapped in corduroy ... it's very comfy.
That's a nice tradition
we had a similar tradition. always a chair at the table for any person that wasn't able to be with their own family that year at my grandparents house, but our big family celebration was always xmas eve on the other side of the family. a huge dinner, all my cousins around, and special treats that we only got once a year. then a few hours of sugar fueled mayhem with a new toy to play with.
With us the large family gathering was Christmas eve. Then each individual family had their own Christmas day.
That's how we did it. We'd alternate which grandparent's home we'd go to first on Christmas Eve. Then go home late that night and have Christmas Day at home.
One year, the roads were terrible, and we slid off the road into a ditch. Some guy in a Santa suit pulled us out.
My grandparents got a friend of theirs to play Santa for all the grandkids. When I was old enough to know Santa wasn't real, I started counting uncles to see which one wasn't there, as I assumed it must be an uncle. Nope, it was a friend we kids had never met. I didn't find out who it was until after college, and I only knew him by his CB handle (remember CB radios?) even then. Stovepipe was his handle. I have no idea what his real name was.
Breaker 1 9. We have a Santa on the highway...
That CB was pretty handy for breakdowns out in the sticks.
We had one for a while.
I got ya something for Christmas, Dev.. LOL
Cut out a hole in the middle of the set, and you have a commode.
when I was 6, my sisters and I thought we would help out our parents and get the xmas decorations out of the closet in the basement under the stairs. unfortunately, that's where santa decided to store our yet to be wrapped xmas gifts that year. oops. it wasn't a happy time at dinner that night when dad got home and was informed by mom. littlest sister was clueless, but the santa threat was meaningless now to me and my sister 1 year younger than me. we didn't get any of the toys we found that day.
perfect for the last supper at easter time. is there a rifle rack mounted or a peg to hang my gunbelt off the back?
Mom and Dad kept us going for quite a while. Our Santa gifts were always waiting for us when we got back from our grandparents' house. We opened the rest the next morning. When my sis asked how they'd managed that, Mom asked her if she remembered that Mom always had to go back in the house for something.
Every year when we left for Grandma's, Mom would "forget" her covered dish, or camera, or extra emergency gift for any left-out child. Dad would grumble convincingly while she ran back in the house and put our Santa gifts under the tree.
We never caught on. Either my parents were devious, or we were much too trusting.
Anyone else able to find mention of a Christmas Tree in the bible? Just askin' because the talking heads over at fox fake news were crying that it was part of the, (non existent), war on Christmas.
Does the Burning Bush count?
pffft, you're not a natural redhead...
they'll be whipping up all the angst they can off that incident. nutjob torches tree at nutjob media headquarters. the end.
[deleted]
Merry Christmas to you and your family - may it be blessed [& full of peace.]
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!
Oh, is it time for the war on Christmas again? Is that still a thing? Did Fox declare it again this year? I haven't really been paying attention.
I had a neighbor who always said "Happy Christmas and Merry New Year"
I like Happy Christmas better. I think that is the way they say it in England.
Should we forget how Christians crucified our Santa?
Um, that guy doesn't really have the build of a carpenter.
Don't forget Jesus vs. Santa .
If your decorations include the wise men, put fireman's helmets on them because 3 wise men came from a fire
They'd have been better off with three wise women. They'd have cleaned the stable, made a bunch of Crockpot meals, and knitted some lovely warm blankets.
Thanks Nerm for seeding this good article here. I was going to seed something about the secular progressive elites war on Christmas next week and still might from a conservative perspective. Yours was quite timely and right on.
Well, it's not really a seed. It's a blog made from a comment that was deleted on an 'educational' seed about this time of year being a time of religious celebration throughout human history.
It's really a secular war on religious celebration; not a war on Christmas. The 'I'm offended' crowd only pick on Christians because Christianity is the predominant religion in the United States. I think the secular atheists are worried that religion (any religion) would point out that a celebration of drunk sex would be immoral. Secular atheists have a problem with moral authority.
Who's in that crowd, Nerm? The atheists celebrating Christmas, or the Christians who are pissed off that we are?
Never studied Bacchanus, did ya?
That depends on the morality of the authority in question. One that condones rape, slavery, and genocide - any decent person would have a problem with such a moral authority.
The only 'I am offended' comments I have seen here are from Christians.
My wife and I are both atheists, we have celebrated christmas for both our lives and continue to do so. this "war on Christmas" has always seemed to be a one sided thing...
Ah, just saw some "inclusivity" from a cousin on my Facebook newsfeed.
Think it would start a family feud if I wish her a "Joyous Kwanzaa"? Or would she suddenly become inclusive?
What a douchebag.
How about Happy Saturnalia?
This is one of the longest discussions ever on NT. It was certainly predictable. Religion is still the topic that most divides people.
Religion itself is what divides people.
Wrong, things like intolerance, sanctimony and ego however do.
On both sides
The “national anthem” of the Christian faith. Where all in attendance stand
Royal Choral Society: 'Hallelujah Chorus' From Handel's Messiah
a great Christmas and Easter tradition!
Religion has those qualities in abundance.
Am I supposed to care?
The national anthem of Christianity is actually "The Anthem of Love", chapter 13 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.
Not necessarily. I'm a sitter.
originally written for Easter, it remains a mainstay of Good Friday in England
In America, I have only heard it at Christmas.
Supposedly at London premier which wasn't being received as feverishly
as it was previously in Catholic Dublin Ireland.
King George stood during the Hallelujah section and everyone else had to follow suit,
And it happens to this day where ever the anthem is played, everyone stands in respect to God.
The article made all that clear. It was originally intended for Easter but is used for both. Ive heard it at both Christmas and Easter concerts. The whole of the work is appropriate for both.
Comment 35.1.8 is merely a theocratic dominionist spin.
First of all, everyone does not stand. Sometimes, some people stand. Sometimes, no one stands.
Unverified legend has it that King George II stood because he was so moved by the music, whereupon the rest of the audience stood as that was the etiquitte when the King stood.
Another theory is that the King stood up to stretch his legs because of his gout during the two hour performance.
Of course, the first mention of the King standing was several decades after the premiere of the Messiah, so it may not have happened at all
Thank you my dear Jewish Brother from California for your unwavering support for the truth.
The truth and nothing but the truth, once again.
It is a great rendition, so much better emotionally than the Muslims or Mayans could conjure up.
/s
and they ( the internationally famous Mormon Tabernacle Choir ) were being recorded...
no influence at all.../s
smh
No they don't
Stop making shit up,
it's kind of pathetic
if not predictable.
Hey, I happen to love "Messiah", especially "The Hallelujah Chorus". It is one of the most magnificent pieces of music ever written. Absolutely beautiful.
In fact, there is a lot of Christmas music that I love, since I love all great music.
As we know, some of the best Christmas music was written by Jewish songwriters, including "White Christmas", "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer", "The Christmas Song (Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire)", "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!", "It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year" and "Silver Bells", just to name a few. And, there are more.
So does Atheism. In fact, using NT as an example it is worse.
Much worse.
Nowhere near the degree religion does. Some on NT are perfect examples.
Opinions do vary.
Greatly in this case.
Any uninvolved casual observer of NT can see it for what it is. No matter how hard some try to convince themselves otherwise.
We sang the Hallejuhah Chorus every year at our Christmas Choral Concert. Nobody stood
We only did it once. People stood, but it was in deference to a masterpiece. And when we did it, it wasn't a masterpiece, which is why we only did it once.
It was the only piece of music we ever performed with the sheet music in front of us onstage, and we still somehow managed to flub it up. The choir director was NOT amused.
LOL!
When I was a senior we had County Chorus at our school. Somebody got on the piano and started playing the Hallelujah Chorus. All 50 kids in that room started singing it. The chorus directors walked in as we were singing and applauded us when we were done. It was a lot of fun. I think everybody in our county sang that song at their Christmas concerts
You're my Brother, too, SP.
EMPHATICALLY!
On reflection, and without 'doing the time' looking into it, do you have any idea what the motivation was for Jewish songwriters to pen such INSPIRATIONAL Christmas or holiday tunes? Much respect! Just thinking back on all those past winters I have adored these songs.
I did not know the background of the songs before now.
And then there’s this war on Christmas:
Another imaginary war.
Wrong as usual. It’s quite real, this war on Christmas.
Nope. There's been no declaration of war. Nobody is prevented from celebrating Xmas as they want. Xmas is still a holiday. The "war" on Xmas is as imaginary as a "war on Easter," Christian persecution in this country, or God. Fables of the mind or sheer delusion to make some play the victim.
Yes. The "War on Christmas" has claimed yet another casualty:
Lol .... your post alone is proof enough. Xmas? Really?
One wonders in this case if it's a real bad job of gaslighting or just plan denial.
Could be either or even both perhaps
Is there a question regarding the use if the term "xmas?"
No need to get into a philosophical discussion about it Gordy, we won't agree.
Simply put, the fact that you won't use the word "Christmas" to define the holiday is proof enough.
Don't need you to agree to know that's the honest truth.
The absolute truth ......
Xmas is simply the short hand way of writing Christmas. So if you think using Xmas is akin to a war on Christmas, then that is just plain stupid and delusional.
No problem, then don't be lazy and use "Christmas" from now on here on NT.
Just for the holidays .....
I'll write it however I please. Don't like it? Tough!
Lol .... and my case rests ......
Don't kid yourself. You had no case to begin with
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Opinion do vary, greatly in this case.
Opinions still vary.
Even more greatly now .....
I think the answer is that they were professional songwriters and there was a market for their product.
One of the best albums of Christmas songs is "A Christmas Gift for You from Phil Spector", originally released in 1963. Phil Spector produced the album, and he was Jewish as were many of the musicians who played on the album. If you are not familiar with that album, CB, you should listen to it. You can check it on YouTube. You have probably heard many of the songs from that album over the years. It was also re-issued under the title "Phil Spector's Christmas Album". Wikipedia notes that in 2019 Rolling Stone ranked it as the greatest Christmas album of all time. Brian Wilson, the genius songwriter of the Beach Boys, called it his favorite album. It is wonderful. You will love it. I do.
You are my Brother, too, CB.
HA!
Listening now. . . .
I think my favorite song on there may be "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" with The Crystals on vocals. It rocks like crazy, especially Hal Blaine druming up a storm. It might be Hal's greatest performance, and you know that is saying a lot, CB.
"Winter Wonderland" with Darlene Love on vocals is also pretty awesome as is "Sleigh Ride" with The Ronettes.
The whole album is so great.
Enjoy!
I am sure I heard these versions of Christmas songs on local radio. Very nice indeed. Has that 'turn-table' appeal we all should love to remember. I like the album ending with words from Phil Specter (on vinyl). For me, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is really great too! But, also, I hear and see (the great) Dean Martin singing the song (albeit, I don't find a sound version anywhere)! Of course, The Jackson Five sang it "stellar well" too! Props to Hal Blaine! Yes, indeed.
We came along with "Giants." I do attest to it!
I am sure you heard them over the years. We grew up with those songs on the radio around this time every year.
I think the Jackson 5 version of "Santa Claus" is really great, but the Phil Spector/Crystals version is mind-boggling! With Hal on drums, Steve Douglas on sax (I assume it was Steve, it had to be ), the great vocals and the Phil Spector Wall of Sound, it is all just too awesome.
Fun!
We did come along with true Giants.
Well, Christianity is not homogeneous. Christians are divided over Christianity, too. If you notice, the blog is about bashing Christian celebration of Christmas. The only aspect of the holiday important to Christians is celebration of the nativity, the birth of Jesus. And celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded.
There have been a lot of accusations that Christianity appropriated traditions of celebrations from other religions. That's simply not true. As people converted to Christianity they brought their traditions with them into the celebration. Christianity is more inclusive and diverse than anything secular society has achieved.
Christian is not a birthright. No one is born Christian. Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. Being Christian is a choice. Choosing to become Christian does not require giving up one's ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. People choosing to be Christian bring their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions into Christianity. Isn't that how inclusion is supposed to work?
The Christian celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. That doesn't preclude pagans, other religions, Atheists, or Christians celebrating their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions. That doesn't stop other religions from celebrating during the holiday season. The only thing that should concern Christians is that celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded from the holiday.
I think that is the sticking point for some people.
I really don't get what is so hard about understanding that Christmas is a Christian holiday. Sure, there can be and are other religions that celebrate the day. But if they aren't Christians, they aren't celebrating Christmas, but something else. It just happens to fall on the same day.
If there really is a "War on Christmas" be careful.
How you managed to understand that your post was pertinent to my post defies logic.
If you continually fling poop at non-Christians, it may splatter back and hit you in the eye.
And yet if you're born in a city/county/country that is majority Christian you're almost guaranteed to be raised and indoctrinated in the popular Christian denomination of that region. Trying to claim Christianity is all that different from any other faith that is passed down from parent/peer to child is to be monstrously obtuse. The number of "converted" Christians each year is about 0.1% of the total number of Christians in the world (2.7 million of 2.2 billion).
So you can call it a 'choice' that some kid was born, raised and indoctrinated into Christianity and then either left or stayed as an adult, but that's like saying if you're born in an Asian country it's a 'choice' to eat rice where 90% of the earths rice is eaten.
If you tell a child from the earliest age they are able to understand basic language that Santa is real, is that child really making a 'choice' to believe in Santa? Same thing with Christianity, if they are told from a young age that Jesus is real are they really 'choosing' Christianity? Or are they just accepting what their parents and peers tell them and continue believing in Jesus after they're adults because no one in the fourth or fifth grade made fun of them for still believing like they did with Santa?
And what poo have you imagined I am throwing now?
What part of Christmas is a Christian holiday is flinging poo?
Oh, I agree. Churches are filled with people who were 'raised Christian'. There is a troubling notion that people can 'buy their way into heaven' through devotion. But that's not how it works.
A church is a gathering of Christians. A church is not a building. A church is not a place. When the Senate opens session with a prayer, the Senate becomes a church during the invocation and stops being a church when business begins. When Christians gather in the name of Christ, that is a church. Christians can convene a church in your living room. Christians can convene a church on the courthouse steps anytime they wish to.
The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism. Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity. The teachings of Christ have been a potent means of unifying and influencing people. Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people. But that's not how it works.
Even secular atheists must confront their own crisis of faith. Alone. Only they can choose for themselves because a crisis of faith is very, very personal.
HA!
Ooooooo my goodness!
I ain't gon' be no mo good today! (And I hate 'toilet humor'!)
It's not really an "idea", it's a fact, children are regularly indoctrinated into Christianity. I know because I was one of those children.
There is no place where children are indoctrinated into secular atheism. There is just public school that teaches children facts we know so far about the physical world around us. Later, when they become adults some go to college and take theological course and philosophy courses that may touch on the theories around non-physical or spiritual realms, but they aren't "indoctrinating" any children into secular atheism.
Total bullshit. As one who was indoctrinated into Christianity it wasn't until I was in my 30's before I started to really question certain Christian doctrines and beliefs. I then went and studied several different religions for several years before I worked my way around to acknowledging that there simply is no proof of any God or deity and with that realization I recognized I'd become an agnostic atheist. I'm not saying there is no God, I just don't see any evidence for one and found that every religion I studied had very similar belief structures which were based on appealing to the emotional nature of humans where they feel better when given simple answers for questions that we don't actually have provable answers to yet.
Humans enjoy feeling like they have all the answers, so if you get into a large enough group validating a belief even without evidence they will often adopt that belief as their own and later double down on it even when confronted with contrary evidence. We see it happen in every major religion, every cult and most recently on social media. It's called the 'Asch paradigm' which essentially proved that a large number (almost 40%) of people will conform to a belief if the people around them are telling them it's true even when they can see contrary evidence that refutes the belief with their own eyes.
With religion there is no contrary evidence that disproves God thus those making the claim have a much easier time indoctrinating others, especially children who are far more susceptible. So making the claim of a God, which God doesn't matter at all, then having others validate their belief in that God its very likely that the person being indoctrinated will conform and accept that belief as true even with zero evidence.
With atheism it takes an inquiring mind to question the vast majority of the planet's religious belief and refuse to conform without evidence. It's not something you get "indoctrinated" in, its something rational adults seek out for themselves.
Just more bullshit. How many countries are being run by atheists? How many atheist TV evangelists are raking in money from gullible suckers? Are there any atheist organizations that are worth billions of dollars like many Christian religions are? Claiming "secular atheists" see some path to power and control is laughably ridiculous, the only pathway most atheists see is keeping their heads down and trying not to piss off too many believers because we've all seen how violent religious extremists can be when told their religion or God is false. Atheists see the pathway to not getting invited to family dinners and being called evil or sinners by those who were once considered friends.
Yes, being an atheist can be lonely because the vast majority of people around us are seemingly euphorically happy in their conformity because they don't have to wonder about where they came from, why they are here, they've been told by their priest, pastor, Imam, Rabi etc. the answers already. Of course, the answers differ depending on what region/faith you were born into and since there simply is no evidence supporting any of them which is why we have religious conflicts, often violent ones converting people at the point of a sword, for as long as recorded human history.
It is which is why its rather confusing that earlier in the post you're claiming children are being indoctrinated into secular atheism. It's the exact opposite for believers, they gather as many other people of their same faith around the person who is having a "crisis of faith" to confirm their bias and validate the belief/faith assuring the person of the veracity of their faith even though none of them actually have any evidence to support their claims.
So again, children ARE being indoctrinated into the many different religions around the globe, its happening every day and accepting that fact is not in any way an excuse for indoctrinating children into secular atheism because that isn't actually happening. The very idea of it is laughable.
That was so very well said! 👍👏
What does that even mean? The governments of Canada and the USA are only now admitting that they sanctioned the cultural genocide of NA Indians by removing Indian children and handing them over to Catholics and other Christian ministries to erase their natural identities or let them die.
Atheists don't have organized schools.
This is as inane as your beliefs about Judaism. Better to be quiet than thought the fool.
Granted.
Why do you insist on having complete knowledge of nonexistent bogeymen? Find a different source of knowledge.
Of course not.
smh
813 comments (see above)? Is this really true?! What an accomplishment on a topic. Go NT!
Nah, we've had whoppers before but they slow the whole system to a crawl, making navigating and moderating this whale
almost impossible.
TiG did a masterful job making edits and subroutines that allow massive farty articles like this to function reasonably
if not artfully or fast like smaller seeds.
Perhaps if the topic wasn't meta based bitching about a previously deleted comment on a different seed,
on top of being a subjective religious seed about being victims of an imaginary war
I could get excited.
Alas I cannot.
merry christmas and happy new year
I take full responsibility for deleting a comment from one of TG's groups and causing this epic take down of apparently the now traditional NT xmas exhibition of religious hypocrisy. now if someone would please explain "inclusive exclusivity" to me.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!
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