╌>
Nerm_L

Tis the Season for Bashing Christian Celebration of Christmas

  
By:  Nerm_L  •  Opinion  •  3 years ago  •  909 comments

Tis the Season for Bashing Christian Celebration of Christmas
What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?

Time for the holiday tradition of rehashing the history of the Christmas holiday.  We'll hear how Christmas is really about pagan celebration of the winter solstice, Yule celebrations, Egyptian and Roman gods, and how modern celebration of the Christmas holiday has nothing to do with theology.

So, the underlying message is that secular society has appropriated the Christmas holiday.  And the secular celebration of the holiday involves mass consumption, money, and meaningless symbolism.  The secular Christmas holiday has become an orgy of greed and selfishness.

We are to believe that somehow the secularization of the Christmas holiday is because the Christian religion is evil?  Naturally there's no profit in religious observation of the holiday and that's just wrong.

What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?

Tags

jrBlog - desc
[]
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1  author  Nerm_L    3 years ago

Merry Christmas!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.1  XXJefferson51  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Thanks for doing this.  I was going to seed an article on the latest tactic in the secular progressives war on Christmas, burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees.  You have it covered.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1    3 years ago

The Fox tree was burned by a homeless mentally unstable man.

One instance of someone 'burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees'

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1    3 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.1.3  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.1    3 years ago
The Fox tree was burned by a homeless mentally unstable man.

One instance of someone 'burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees'

It's just a Yule tree.  

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.1.4  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1    3 years ago
war on Christmas

This is the why there is a war on Christmas, the right wing insisting that there is one when there isn't. Many know no other thing than playing the victim. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.1.5  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @1.1.3    3 years ago

It's just a Yule tree.  

It was also a fake tree and coming from Fox News, is anyone surprised? 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.1.6  XXJefferson51  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.1    3 years ago

It wasn’t the only tree attacked.  At 5 pm eastern time Fox News will broadcast the lighting of the new bigger and better one with even more lights.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.7  Tessylo  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.6    3 years ago

Attacked?  LOL!  Then prove which other trees were 'attacked'!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.1.8  XXJefferson51  replied to  MrFrost @1.1.4    3 years ago

While others exist to simply blame the victims in the war against against Christmas 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.1.9  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.8    3 years ago

While others exist to simply blame the victims in the war against against Christmas 

There is no war on Christmas, never was, it was, (and is), nothing more than a fake narrative designed to create a place for people to claim victimhood. That's it, end of story. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.10  Kavika   replied to  MrFrost @1.1.9    3 years ago

thumb_here-we-see-the-concentration-camps-crowded-and-full-of-8940736.png

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
1.1.11  Gordy327  replied to  MrFrost @1.1.9    3 years ago

It must be one of those Xmas stories. Like How the Grinch Stole Christmas. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.12  Tessylo  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1.6    3 years ago

265807632_282310494000532_4766082607067833549_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_aid=0&_nc_ohc=1avrIkaVxPMAX_N_oWF&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=443866f84d4e93fd33d3ef69593ef86b&oe=61B834F9

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.1.13  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.1    3 years ago

Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. That was a declaration by the pope that moved the celebration to coincide with the traditional pagan celebration of Yule.

Julius restored Athanasius and his decision was confirmed by the Roman emperor Constantius II, even though he himself was an Arian.

During the years of his papacy, Julius built several basilicas and churches in Rome.

Although the exact date of birth of Jesus has never been known, Julius decreed 25 December to be the official date for the celebration. This was near the Roman festival of Saturnalia, held in honour of the god Saturn from 17 to 23 December. Part of the reason he chose this date may have been because he wanted to create a Christian alternative to Saturnalia.

Another reason may have been that the emperor Aurelian had declared 25 December the birthday of Sol Invictus, the sun god and patron of Roman soldiers. Julius may have thought that he could attract more converts to Christianity by allowing them to continue to hold celebrations on the same day.

Julius died in Rome on 12 April 352 and was succeeded by Pope Liberius.

He was buried initially in the catacombs on the Aurelian Way but his body was later transported for burial to Santa Maria in Trastevere, one of the churches he had ordered to be completed during his papacy.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Happy Holidays!

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.2.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Tessylo @1.2    3 years ago
Happy Holidays!

Happy Holidays to you, too!

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
1.3  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Merry Christmas Nerm. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.3.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  MrFrost @1.3    3 years ago
Merry Christmas Nerm. 

Merry Christmas!  Enjoy the holidays however you celebrate them.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.4  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Merry Christmas or in my native tongue, Vesel'e Vianoce

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.4.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Sparty On @1.4    3 years ago
Merry Christmas or in my native tongue, Vesel'e Vianoce

Merry Christmas to you, too!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Happy holidays

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.5.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Gordy327 @1.5    3 years ago
Happy holidays

Happy Holidays!  Hope the holidays are safe and happy for you and yours.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
1.5.2  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @1.5.1    3 years ago

Thank you, and to you as well.

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
1.6  JaneDoe  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Buon Natale

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.6.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  JaneDoe @1.6    3 years ago
Buon Natale

Buon Natale!  Have a blessed holiday.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.7  cjcold  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Happy Holidays.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.7.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  cjcold @1.7    3 years ago
Happy Holidays.

Happy Holidays to you, too.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
1.8  epistte  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Happy rebranded Pagan holidays to you and yours.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.8.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  epistte @1.8    3 years ago
Happy rebranded Pagan holidays to you and yours.

Happy Holidays!  Pagan, too.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.9  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago
Nollaig Shona

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
1.10  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

Bain taitneamh as an bhféile

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
1.10.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Split Personality @1.10    3 years ago
Bain taitneamh as an bhféile

May your feast be plentiful and your cares be light.

 
 
 
squiggy
Junior Silent
1.11  squiggy  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

263692680_10166620725590151_6037514517606135505_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=0dcpie0ZsnkAX-KuMAO&_nc_ht=scontent.fwbw1-1.fna&oh=1c11b638c0b29071f0e8570cd4eb8f03&oe=61BB67DF

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.12  XXJefferson51  replied to  Nerm_L @1    3 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2  devangelical    3 years ago

the festival of hypocrites...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1  devangelical  replied to  devangelical @2    3 years ago

...honoring the birth day of a man whose teachings are ignored the other 364 days of the year.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3  Tessylo    3 years ago

Yes, the 'christians' are forever put upon.  And bashed.  And repressed.

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @3    3 years ago

Maybe non-Christians can stop insulting Christians to begin with.

That would be a good start!

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
3.1.1  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1    3 years ago
Maybe non-Christians can stop insulting Christians to begin with. That would be a good start!

Maybe Christians can stop insulting Non-Christians to begin with.

That would be a good start! 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.1    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.3  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.2    3 years ago
removed for context

How are non-Christians insulted by Christians?

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.4  Veronica  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.3    3 years ago

This whole article is an insult to pagans.   By insinuating that stating what Yule is and how some the Pagan traditions were inserted into Christmas we are somehow "bashing" Christians is an insult.  Do we not have the same right as Christians to espouse our beliefs on this forum?  By stating the truth of some of the Christmas traditions is not "bashing" your Christmas.  

And HOW are non-Christians insulting Christians? By stating the truth?  What a mockery of the whole season you have made with this article.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.3    3 years ago

Oh...please.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @3.1.4    3 years ago

Call me paranoid but I think his article is a counter to my seed about the origins of Xmas

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.7  TᵢG  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.6    3 years ago

That was my first impression too.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.3    3 years ago

You will have to ask Mr. Frost that, as it was his quote.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.9  Veronica  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.6    3 years ago

That is why I responded when I usually just skip over this tripe.  I just wanted to tell him his article was an insult to Pagans that tell of their beliefs.  I guess we are supposed to remain mute until his holiday is over.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.7    3 years ago

So it's not just paranoia

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @3.1.9    3 years ago

The Christians know they co-opted Pagan beliefs and traditions (well, the Church does) but they keep telling themselves they are morally superior to you because...JESUS!

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.12  Veronica  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.11    3 years ago
JESUS

Who was Jewish.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
3.1.13  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.3    3 years ago

How are non-Christians insulted by Christians?

Obviously, "Merry Christmas" doesn't bother me in the least and I am a Deist, but, there are some people who don't care for it and feel insulted. 

Remember, freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion regardless of the religion in question. 

Put it another way.. How do you think an Evangelical would feel if someone said, "allah 'akbar" to them? My guess is they would be pissed off.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.13    3 years ago

Merry Christmas doesn't bother me, but I try to remember who believes in what and give my greetings accordingly

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
3.1.15  MrFrost  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.14    3 years ago

Merry Christmas doesn't bother me, but I try to remember who believes in what and give my greetings accordingly

Exactly, same here. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.14    3 years ago

I wish people Merry Christmas all the time in response to them wishing same to me.   If someone wished me Happy Hanukah (or any other similar greeting), I would respond in kind without hesitation (if I recognized the holiday).

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.17  Kavika   replied to  TᵢG @3.1.16    3 years ago

So if I say to you, '' Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad" you will respond in kind. No copy and paste it must be vocal with the proper inflections. Just to give you a head start it's in the Ojibwe double vowel system versus the single vowel system. jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.18  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @3.1.17    3 years ago

How about a "back at ya"?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.19  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Veronica @3.1.4    3 years ago
This whole article is an insult to pagans.   By insinuating that stating what Yule is and how some the Pagan traditions were inserted into Christmas we are somehow "bashing" Christians is an insult.  Do we not have the same right as Christians to espouse our beliefs on this forum?  By stating the truth of some of the Christmas traditions is not "bashing" your Christmas.  

It's Christ Mass.  Not Yule.  Not pagan.  If you want to celebrate Yule, then by all means go ahead.  Christ Mass is not Hanukah, either.  That doesn't stop the celebration of Hanukah. 

But claiming that the history of Christ Mass is not Christian is a factual flight of fancy.  Yes, Christians have incorporated cultural traditions into the holiday (which includes pagan cultural traditions) but Christ Mass is most definitely Christian.

And HOW are non-Christians insulting Christians? By stating the truth?  What a mockery of the whole season you have made with this article.

The truth is there would not be Christ Mass without Christians.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  Kavika @3.1.17    3 years ago

Note:

TiG @3.1.16 ☞ I would respond in kind without hesitation (if I recognized the holiday).

But for you, I would give it a shot.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.21  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.19    3 years ago
It's Christ Mass. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.22  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.6    3 years ago
Call me paranoid but I think his article is a counter to my seed about the origins of Xmas

Another ticket, another blog.  I won't be silenced.

And the discussion is better, too.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.23  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.8    3 years ago
You will have to ask Mr. Frost that, as it was his quote.

Oops, I thought I did ask Mr. Frost.  Sorry 'bout that.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.24  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.18    3 years ago
How about a "back at ya"?

Nope, that isn't going to work, Trout.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.25  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.22    3 years ago

Who is trying to silence you?????????????????????????????

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.23    3 years ago

No problem!

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.27  Veronica  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.19    3 years ago

There would also be a hell of a lot more Pagans and Pagan belief systems without Christians.  

Well then - how about you guys celebrate your day ON THAT day only instead of taking up 6 months proceeding it.  

I do celebrate Yule & Christmas.  It is not Christ Mass - it is Christmas.  Spell it right.  

The truth is that you would prefer it if we (all non-christians) would just shut the fuck up any time NEAR December.  THAT is what is insulting.  

As I stated earlier - your whole article makes a mockery of the holiday season of joy and peace on earth good will towards men (IT DOES NOT SAY CHRISTAINS).  BTW - Jesus was a Jew.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.28  Tessylo  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.1    3 years ago

I call them the small c 'christians'.  They're CINOs

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.29  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.22    3 years ago

I didn't even read your comment. Obviously it had nothing to do with the topic or it was a comment filled with whining. Whatev. If you're going to comment on my seeds be sure it's on topic and not bashing the article or me

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.30  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @3.1.24    3 years ago

Damn! You're a tough task master

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.31  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @3.1.27    3 years ago
There would also be a hell of a lot more Pagans and Pagan belief systems without Christians. 

Christians forced conversion on Pagans in Europe and the Americas

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.32  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.22    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.33  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.31    3 years ago

They seem to forget, The Doctrine of Discovery and the Papal Bull, ''"Inter Caetera." 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.34  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.21    3 years ago

The same could be said to the "Christmas" haters out there

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.35  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.34    3 years ago

Sure but are there really all that many Christmas 'haters'?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.36  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.29    3 years ago
I didn't even read your comment. Obviously it had nothing to do with the topic or it was a comment filled with whining. Whatev. If you're going to comment on my seeds be sure it's on topic and not bashing the article or me

Now you have.  The deleted comment became the blog.  See how that works?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.37  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.35    3 years ago

Like many things today, not many, but that doesn't stop them from trying to drive the narrative for those who aren't.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.38  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.36    3 years ago

So your comment was off topic and whining. I'm glad dev deleted it

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.39  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.35    3 years ago

There also aren't many Christmas supporters that are hating on the Christmas haters but they are still out there.  

And like their counterparts they are just as loud and just a whiny.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.40  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.38    3 years ago

Dev carpet bomb deletes anything he doesn't like which is completely counterproductive to any uncensored conversation.

Great if you want an echo chamber though.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.41  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.38    3 years ago
So your comment was off topic and whining. I'm glad dev deleted it

And now my comment is the topic.  But, then, you are here, too, to comment on what you didn't see.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
3.1.42  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.23    3 years ago

Oops, I thought I did ask Mr. Frost.  Sorry 'bout that.

You did, and I answered your question. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.43  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.41    3 years ago

Good for you. See how that works?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.44  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.40    3 years ago

Don't complain to me.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.45  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.44    3 years ago

Not a complaint, it's a fact.   I'm glad you got to read it before it gets removed.

You know it's true.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.46  author  Nerm_L  replied to  MrFrost @3.1.13    3 years ago
Obviously, "Merry Christmas" doesn't bother me in the least and I am a Deist, but, there are some people who don't care for it and feel insulted. 
Remember, freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion regardless of the religion in question. 

But freedom of religion and freedom from religion is not freedom to disparage religion or insult those who practice religion.

That doesn't explain how non-Christians are insulted by Christians?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.47  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.45    3 years ago
You know it's true.

Indubitably.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.48  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.40    3 years ago
Great if you want an echo chamber though.

does create that effect when comments are deleted!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1.49  Kavika   replied to  Sparty On @3.1.40    3 years ago
Great if you want an echo chamber though.

If that is your complaint you should speak to a certain RW that does it on a regular basis.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.50  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.37    3 years ago
Like many things today, not many, …

… and thus do not really matter.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.51  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.48    3 years ago

Hey, if they should go per the rules so be it but that is not what happens in some groups and why i don't like that rule.   Sure it keeps the peace more but only allows groups to censor their group so heavily they become echo chambers.  

Not my idea of a uncensored discussion forum but to each their own i guess.

My bad .... i'll stop with the meta now ....

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.52  Texan1211  replied to  Kavika @3.1.49    3 years ago
If that is your complaint you should speak to a certain RW that does it on a regular basis.

Did a RW delete the comment in question?
Or is this more whataboutism?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.53  Sparty On  replied to  Kavika @3.1.49    3 years ago

I include everyone who does it but if i know who you are talking about.

It's not even close to the same thing most of the time.  

Not even close.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.54  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.50    3 years ago

Lol ... tell that to this seed.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.55  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Veronica @3.1.27    3 years ago
There would also be a hell of a lot more Pagans and Pagan belief systems without Christians.  

Maybe so.  But there wouldn't be Christmas without Christians.  Were the pagan holidays about brotherly love and fellowship?

The truth is that you would prefer it if we (all non-christians) would just shut the fuck up any time NEAR December.  THAT is what is insulting.  

The truth is that Christians would prefer not be be disparaged anytime someone feels threatened by a plastic baby Jesus. 

As the history points out, public displays of Yule trees is based upon religious celebrations, too.  So, why aren't Yule trees banned from public facilities and public property?

As I stated earlier - your whole article makes a mockery of the holiday season of joy and peace on earth good will towards men (IT DOES NOT SAY CHRISTAINS).  BTW - Jesus was a Jew.

Yes, Jesus was a Jew.  But Jesus was also the first Christian.  That's something worth celebrating, don't you think?  Merry Christmas!

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
3.1.56  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.32    3 years ago

You noticed it too!  

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.57  Veronica  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.55    3 years ago

There is so much wrong with your reply.  

Yule was a celebration of the lengthening of the days.  A celebration of the sun's return and the rebirth of the the land.  It was more about survival then kinship.  Maybe read a little on something other than YOUR religion.  

Where do you see any Yule trees?  As far as I know they are all labeled CHRISTMAS trees and I would love you to show me any PUBLIC place that speaks of Yule trees.  As far as the plastic baby - I could give 2 fucks - put it wherever you want - BUT if you want to follow the Constitution you can't put it on public property because that is supported by more than Christian people.

Jesus was NOT the first Christian since Christians are the FOLLOWERS of Christ as any GOOD Christian knows.  He was a Jew when he was born and he was a Jew when he died.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.58  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.51    3 years ago

When someone comes into a seed merely to disrupt it or troll then they deserve to have their comments deleted.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.59  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.55    3 years ago

Nerm...you really should do some more reading about your religion

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.60  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.58    3 years ago

No argument.  

Is it your contention that's all that is being done in this case?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.1.61  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.60    3 years ago

Yes

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.62  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.1.61    3 years ago

I disagree, vociferously.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.63  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.54    3 years ago
Lol ... tell that to this seed.

The seed seems to be a lot of whining and victimization.   Anyone can complain about anything, that does not make it significant (or even true).

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
3.1.64  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.46    3 years ago

That doesn't explain how non-Christians are insulted by Christians?

I'll try again.. Do you think a Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist or [insert not Christian religion here] wants to hear, "Merry Christmas"?

No. 

That's how. Personally, I don't care, I say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays all the time. If I see someone that is clearly not a Christian, I usually just say Happy Holidays in an effort to not blatantly offend someone. I may not always be 100% spot on, but I am who I am and I will never apologize for it. 

In other words, I don't try to be an offensive asshole, but I am sure I come off that way from time to time to people who do not share my religious beliefs around the holidays. Hoc est quod est

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
3.1.65  cjcold  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.46    3 years ago
is not freedom to disparage religion

That's what the first amendment is for.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.66  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.63    3 years ago

True, opinions do vary and in the end are only as meaningful one is willing to make them.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.67  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.40    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.68  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @3.1.67    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.69  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Veronica @3.1.57    3 years ago
Yule was a celebration of the lengthening of the days.  A celebration of the sun's return and the rebirth of the the land.  It was more about survival then kinship.  Maybe read a little on something other than YOUR religion.

Sounds like that would be a good article or blog.  Post it and I'll read it.  There seems to be a receptive audience here that read and discuss Christmas season celebrations.

Where do you see any Yule trees?  As far as I know they are all labeled CHRISTMAS trees and I would love you to show me any PUBLIC place that speaks of Yule trees.  As far as the plastic baby - I could give 2 fucks - put it wherever you want - BUT if you want to follow the Constitution you can't put it on public property because that is supported by more than Christian people.

" The “Yule tree,”, or  Christmas tree , is a decorated tree, usually an evergreen conifer species, such as pine, fir, cedar, juniper, or spruce. The tradition has origins with ancient civilizations in the middle east, Asia, and Europe. Our modern custom flourished in Germany and spread to other European nations and North America in the 19th century. The Yule tree's brightly colored decorations and lights symbolized stellar objects, spirits of those who died, religious events and figures, and provided edible treats." 

A Christmas tree is topped with the Christmas Star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel.  A Yule tree is not.

This is a Yule tree:

  512

This is a Christmas tree:  Notice the Christmas tree has been secularized with presents (the season to buy).  We are socially conditioned to look at the bottom of the tree before looking at the top of the tree.  But the top of the tree is why the holiday is called Christmas and not Yule.

512

Jesus was NOT the first Christian since Christians are the FOLLOWERS of Christ as any GOOD Christian knows.  He was a Jew when he was born and he was a Jew when he died.

Jesus followed the teachings of Christ.  But Jesus did not become Christ until he was killed, resurrected, and ascended.  Jesus believed in himself as Christ before he became Christ; Jesus was the first Christian.

There are several early Christians mentioned in the scriptures who were Christian before Jesus was killed.  But Jesus was the first Christian.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.70  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.69    3 years ago
Sounds like that would be a good article or blog.  Post it and I'll read it.

Check the front page.  Her blog has been up for days.

A Christmas tree is topped with the Christmas Star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel.  A Yule tree is not.

 Modification of the appropriation.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.71  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.70    3 years ago
Check the front page.  Her blog has been up for days.

I missed it.  Thank you for pointing out Veronica's blog.  It was a good read.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
3.1.72  Veronica  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.69    3 years ago
Jesus followed the teachings of Christ.  But Jesus did not become Christ until he was killed, resurrected, and ascended.  Jesus believed in himself as Christ before he became Christ; Jesus was the first Christian

That is bullshit and you know it - there was NO Christ before Jesus so there was NO teachings of Christ.  Jesus followed the teachings of his Faith which was the Hebrew faith.  Your shit is getting deep.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.73  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Veronica @3.1.72    3 years ago
That is bullshit and you know it - there was NO Christ before Jesus so there was NO teachings of Christ.  Jesus followed the teachings of his Faith which was the Hebrew faith.  Your shit is getting deep.

Christian is not a birthright.  Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage.  No one is born a Christian.  

Even Jesus had to choose to be Christian.  Jesus chose to preach and teach things that challenged Jewish authority.  Jesus could have chosen to flee Jerusalem and Jewish authority but instead chose to remain.  Jesus was offered opportunities to recant; Jesus chose not to. 

Jesus chose to be baptized.  Baptism is not a ritual cleansing of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith.  Jesus chose to be an evangelical minister which was not part of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith.  Jesus chose to change the meaning of the temple and synagogue.  Jesus chose to teach that faith was more important than law, prayer, ritual, or sacrificial offering.  

Before telling someone they're spewing bullshit, you better have your shit straight.  Yes, Jesus was born a Jew.  But no one is born Christian; everyone is born something else.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.74  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.73    3 years ago

Jesus lived and died a Jew. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
3.1.75  Gordy327  replied to  Dulay @3.1.74    3 years ago

That means Hannakuh is a more appropriate celebration than xmas.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.76  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Dulay @3.1.74    3 years ago
"Jesus lived and died a Jew."

ABSOLUTELY

The "Last Supper" was a PASSOVER SEDER, and I don't think that's a Christian ceremony.

IMO, if Christians want to emulate Jesus, they should all convert to Judaism and pooh pooh the fables they created, like Jews returning to Israel and dying at the end of times.  I just think they're afraid of being circumcised, not just the knife, but that it will end their "manhood".  LOL

Hey Dulay, are you dreaming of being Spiderman?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.77  Dulay  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.76    3 years ago
The "Last Supper" was a PASSOVER SEDER, and I don't think that's a Christian ceremony.

You speak the facts Buzz. 

I can't help but wonder why anyone would even try to make those claims in 3.1.73 while still insisting that their beliefs are based on scripture. 

Hey Dulay, are you dreaming of being Spiderman?

No. I am envisioning catching the ignorant in my web of facts.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.78  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @3.1.74    3 years ago
Jesus lived and died a Jew. 

And?

Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage.  And being Christian does not require giving up traditions; those traditions are brought into Christianity by people who become Christian.  That's why the celebration of Christmas includes a diverse and inclusive mix of traditions.

How is inclusion supposed to work?  Being Christian doesn't mean people cannot bring their traditions of Passover and Hanukkah into Christian celebrations.  Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.79  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.78    3 years ago
Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.

It sure as fuck DOES Nerm. 

Being a Jew IS 'an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage' Nerm. 

Based on the scriptures, Jesus was born, lived and died a Jew. PERIOD. Full stop. 

All of that gum flapping in your comment is pure fantasy. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.80  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.79    3 years ago
Being a Jew IS 'an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage' Nerm. 

That's nuts .... so i'm a Christian only?   Not Caucasian, not American of Slavic/English descent but just a Christian by creed?

That's just fuckin crazy progressive talk.

Nothing more.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.81  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.80    3 years ago
That's just fuckin crazy progressive talk.

No, that's liberal talk.  Exclusion is a regressive notion, not a progressive notion.  And the argument is based upon liberal exclusion; a Jew can only be a Jew.

Liberals don't seem to understand what diversity and inclusion really means.  Liberals aren't progressive.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.82  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.81    3 years ago
Liberals aren't progressive.

I beg to differ but really don't feel like getting into the nuances of that argument today.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.83  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.78    3 years ago
Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.

From a religious standpoint, yes, it does.  Judaism does not recognize Jesus as divine.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.84  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.80    3 years ago
That's nuts .... so i'm a Christian only?   Not Caucasian, not American of Slavic/English descent but just a Christian by creed?
That's just fuckin crazy progressive talk. Nothing more.

Strawman and obtuse. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.85  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.81    3 years ago
And the argument is based upon liberal exclusion; a Jew can only be a Jew.

Obtuse. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.86  Dulay  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.83    3 years ago
From a religious standpoint, yes, it does.

True and Nerm's whole argument is from a religious standpoint. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
3.1.87  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.78    3 years ago
Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.

Well almost 900 comments and we have a winner.  Dumbest statement in the lot

and that's saying something since you deny Christian history and muddle your religious beliefs with 

political slurs and imaginary wars.

What a waste.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.88  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Split Personality @3.1.87    3 years ago
Well almost 900 comments and we have a winner.  Dumbest statement in the lot

and that's saying something since you deny Christian history and muddle your religious beliefs with 

political slurs and imaginary wars.

What a waste.

Show me where in the Judaic Messianic prophecies that fulfillment of the prophecy will mean that Jews will no longer be Jews.

According to the Messianic prophecies the Son of God will be a Jew.  Of course Jesus was a Jew.  The Messiah cannot be anything other than a Jew.   Accepting that Jesus, a Jew, fulfills the Jewish prophecies means Jews give up being Jews?

With almost 900 comments, some are still attempting to make obtuse arguments.  And are wasting other's time with their illogical arguments.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
3.1.89  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.88    3 years ago
With almost 900 comments, some are still attempting to make obtuse arguments.  And are wasting other's time with their illogical arguments.

Well, one still is.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
3.1.90  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.88    3 years ago
Accepting that Jesus, a Jew, fulfills the Jewish prophecies means Jews give up being Jews?

Twisted nonsense because accepting Jesus is not going to happen

and is theologically incompatible with Judaism.

What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning

Have a good holiday pilgrim.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.91  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.88    3 years ago
Show me where in the Judaic Messianic prophecies that fulfillment of the prophecy will mean that Jews will no longer be Jews.

Show me where anyone said it does.

BTFW, I don't the premise of your posit. What most Christians call as 'Judaic Messianic prophecies' have NOTHING to do with Judaism. 

You claimed:

Even Jesus had to choose to be Christian.

That's bullshit. 

Then you ask:

 Accepting that Jesus, a Jew, fulfills the Jewish prophecies means Jews give up being Jews?

Where the fuck did you get that from Nerm? 

While YOU have every right to accept Jesus as whatever the fuck you want to, the Jews have even more of a right to state that Jesus did NOT fulfill the biblical requirements of the Messiah. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.92  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @3.1.91    3 years ago
While YOU have every right to accept Jesus as whatever the fuck you want to, the Jews have even more of a right to state that Jesus did NOT fulfill the biblical requirements of the Messiah. 

The twelve apostles were Jews.  Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a Jew.  Joseph was a Jew.  Lazarus was a Jew.  Mary Magdalene was a Jew.

St. Peter is considered the first Pope of the Catholic Church.  St. Peter was a Jew who followed Jesus as a disciple.  The first Pope of the Catholic Church was a Jew.  Let that sink in.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.93  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.92    3 years ago
Let that sink in.

No need Nerm. I know the bible, I've read 4 versions, a couple multiple times. 

Oh and BTFW, your comment is non-responsive to mine. Merely blathering whatever the fuck you want doesn't count as furthering the discussion. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.94  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.78    3 years ago
"Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew."

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif .jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif .jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif .jrSmiley_50_smiley_image.gif

I think I'm better qualified to deny that statement than you are to say it.  If you are saying that being a Jew because one's mother was Jewish that may be a matter of ancestry only,   But you are speaking theologically, because you speak of "becoming Christian", and I can tell you that once a Jew accepts Jesus as the "saviour" or divine, or the "son of God" or the Messiah, then they are no longer of the Jewish faith.  Jews may well accept Jesus as having been a rabbi or a prophet, but only a human being.  "Jews for Jesus" are Christians, not Jews, or there could even be some who were at one time Jews among them, a cult with the purpose of converting naive or disenchanted Jews into becoming Christians.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
3.1.95  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.92    3 years ago
St. Peter is considered the first Pope of the Catholic Church.  St. Peter was a Jew who followed Jesus as a disciple.  The first Pope of the Catholic Church was a Jew.  Let that sink in.

What trivia point do you think you are making that proves anything?

The first "pope" and the 5th were both Jews.  Who cares?

Followers of Christ were simply "of the way" for a hundred years

before Ignatius of Antioch ( a non Jewish city ) called them Christians in a letter.

The people of "the way" liked it.

Let that sink in.

Stop taking what you think you know and molding it to your weak preconceived beliefs about Judaism.

It's embarrassing to watch.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.96  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.84    3 years ago

Nah, but opinions do vary.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.97  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.96    3 years ago

Facts don't.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.98  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.97    3 years ago
Facts don't.

True, so let me know when you actually have some real ones

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.99  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.98    3 years ago

There are plenty examples right here in this seed. 

BTFW, your comment about 'the triggered' is the height of irony. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.100  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.99    3 years ago

Lol, nope .... not even close but keep gaslighting .......

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.101  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.100    3 years ago
gaslighting

Did my comment cause you distress Sparty? Questioning your perceptions, are you?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.102  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.101    3 years ago
Did my comment cause you distress Sparty? Questioning your perceptions, are you?

Lol ..... no and no but even farther away than before ..... this is just getting boring now ....

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.103  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.94    3 years ago
I think I'm better qualified to deny that statement than you are to say it.  If you are saying that being a Jew because one's mother was Jewish that may be a matter of ancestry only,   But you are speaking theologically, because you speak of "becoming Christian", and I can tell you that once a Jew accepts Jesus as the "saviour" or divine, or the "son of God" or the Messiah, then they are no longer of the Jewish faith.  Jews may well accept Jesus as having been a rabbi or a prophet, but only a human being.  "Jews for Jesus" are Christians, not Jews, or there could even be some who were at one time Jews among them, a cult with the purpose of converting naive or disenchanted Jews into becoming Christians.  

So, what happens to Jews when the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in an acceptable manner?

Look, we know that all of the first Christians were Jews; Christianity began in Israel.  The early Christians were an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism.  And we can surmise that early Christianity represented a reformed Judaism that threatened the religious hierarchy and power structure of Judaism controlled by the Sadducees and Pharisees sects.  Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion.

The name Christian and the roots of today's Christian religion can be traced to Antioch; a Greek city located in today's Turkey.  Antioch became the center of 1st century Christianity.  And in Antioch, Christians made the reformed Judaism of the apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism an inclusive religion; a religion for gentiles as well as for Jews.  One true God for all people.  Christians liberated the God of Abraham from being exclusively a God of the Jews.

It wasn't Christians who excluded the Jews.  All the first Christians were Jews.  It was the Jews who excluded Christians.  And Christians were excluded to maintain political power and control over the Temple which was destroyed anyway.  No doubt the Jewish leaders of that time tried to blame Christians for destruction of the Temple.  Christians have been blamed for the political corruption of many monarchs and church/state bureaucracies.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
3.1.104  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Split Personality @3.1.95    3 years ago
Stop taking what you think you know and molding it to your weak preconceived beliefs about Judaism.

Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion.  Judaism in the time of Jesus had become corrupt and there was a struggle within the elite for control of the Temple which represented control over society.  Jesus led an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism that interpreted Judaism to reform both the religious and secular power of the Temple controlled by the elite.

Here's the concise Christianity for Dummies crib notes.  This is really the apocalyptic messianic message Jesus was preaching.

We are born sinners; we are predisposed to sin.  We must choose to do good.  Life is a struggle between good and evil.  Our death is our own personal apocalypse.  At the apocalypse, the Messiah will not judge us on our sins but will judge us on our struggle between good and evil.  Good will triumph in the struggle between good and evil.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.105  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.104    3 years ago
Good will triumph in the struggle between good and evil.

Yep, i have that faith as well.   A strong faith.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.106  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.102    3 years ago

So your claim of gaslighting was bullshit. Got ya. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Expert
3.1.107  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.104    3 years ago
Jesus led an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism that interpreted Judaism to reform both the religious and secular power of the Temple controlled by the elite.

Here's the concise definitions for dummies crib notes:

Reform:

make changes in (something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.

Christians didn't 'improve', they created their own religion. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.108  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.103    3 years ago

Messianic prophecies???  When Jews are no longer young children they don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either.  As for your "Messianic Jews", I already commented on your "Jews for Jesus".  Jews don't try to prevent you from believing in your fairy tales, nor do they encourage conversion to Judaism, so as far as I'm concerned you can believe the world is flat and Armageddon is coming and I really don't care and for sure you won't have any success converting me to your Christian beliefs, so give it up (or is it considered a sin to not keep trying?)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.109  CB  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.104    3 years ago
[T]he Messiah will not judge us on our sins but will judge us on our struggle between good and evil.

So Nerm, what is the role of faith in our Christian (salvation) narrative? Hmm?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.110  CB  replied to  Dulay @3.1.107    3 years ago

Christianity is a new covenant (contractual agreement) borne out of the old covenant (contractual agreement) being fulfilled. That is, for believers the old covenant of works "passed away" and the new covenant of faith is instituted for two thousand plus years.

Is that a wholly "new" religion in the sense that you mean it? Not really. The foundation of Christianity is Judaism. Evenso, Jesus referred to himself in life as the "cornerstone" (of an "institution") joining two wholes as one.

Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic.”

Ephesians 2:2“built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.”

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.111  CB  replied to  CB @3.1.110    3 years ago

That being so, it is also true that Christianity was founded on one man, Jesus, and all of its officials had created for them designated roles not found in the "old religion" on Judaism. For example, pope, pastors, preachers, and teachers.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.112  Sparty On  replied to  Dulay @3.1.106    3 years ago

Gaslighting your gaslighting ...... a diabolical, albeit predictable tactic.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
3.2  al Jizzerror  replied to  Tessylo @3    3 years ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5  TᵢG    3 years ago
We are to believe that somehow the secularization of the Christmas holiday is because the Christian religion is evil?

Where did you get this idea?   

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
5.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @5    3 years ago
Where did you get this idea?   

Well, the yearly secular tradition is to retell every historical story that castes Christians as being evil.

Are you celebrating the holiday this year with Visa, Mastercard, or what's-in-your-wallet?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1    3 years ago

To me it a haters gotta hate scenario and generally a DNE moment.   It accomplishes nothing but to piss people off most of the time.

It's a Festivas for the rest of us is fine with me.   Won't change a damn thing for me or mine.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1    3 years ago

I didn't know Rudolph and Frosty were historical stories...

So that is how we got dentistry, from an elf that wanted to work on teeth.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @5.1    3 years ago

Again, where do you see this?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6  TᵢG    3 years ago
What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?

Christmas means many different things.   There is no single answer that is true for everyone.   My family, for example, celebrates Christmas as a fun holiday … no so much in consideration of the proclaimed birth of Jesus but a chance to gather and have traditional fun.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.1  Veronica  replied to  TᵢG @6    3 years ago

In our family we have 2 celebrations during December.  One on the winter solstice (Yule) where we eat and drink and one on Christmas where we exchange gifts, eat and drink.  My daughter attends Midnight Mass and enjoys the pageantry.  It is never a fight in our house.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @6.1    3 years ago

I went to Midnight Mass once. All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk. It smelled like a gd brewery in the chapel

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Veronica @6.1    3 years ago

Sounds right to me.   Some of my extended family go to Chrismas mass but that seems to be the extent of their religious consideration of the holiday.   Most of the time is spent preparing for and having family events.   Christmas seems more to be a celebration of family and pleasant times;  religion seems to be playing an increasingly lesser role.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.1.3  Veronica  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.1    3 years ago

I used to enjoy Midnight Mass - of course we had already consumed the spiked eggnog... then we had kids and had to attend the "children's Mass".  That was a horror show & too goddamn crowded for my tastes.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.1.4  Veronica  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.2    3 years ago
Christmas seems more to be a celebration of family and pleasant times

I agree.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.2    3 years ago

I have a pretty large extended family these days with my daughter marrying my friends' son. We were all a pretty big crowd before but now we're family.

Christmas Eve is not complete without one round of Monopoly

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
6.1.6  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.5    3 years ago

Sure, all starts with a seemingly simple game of monopoly..

Then it all breaks down. The lying, cheating, stealing that eventually leads to a table flip and broken beer bottles..

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @6.1.6    3 years ago

That would be Uno for us

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.8  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.7    3 years ago

I was stabbed once over Uno because we rented a house at the beach and it rained all week....

Or was it Yahtzee?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.1.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.8    3 years ago

Stabbed?

I've been called names by my spouse and children and in turn called them names and disowned them but never stabbed them...felt like it sometimes

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
6.1.10  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.8    3 years ago

Could be either one of those two in our house. Well not stabbed but quite heated at times. LOL

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.11  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.9    3 years ago

Back in the day I had decent pecs and it just stayed there for a moment, very difficult to pull out though,

after a minute it went limp and slid out. 

His spouse came over and slapped the back of his head really hard and we all laughed.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
6.1.12  MrFrost  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.1    3 years ago
All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk.

Pretty sure I have been to that church a time or two.. I'm positive there were a few pews behind me that were passing stinkweed around as well. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.1.13  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.1    3 years ago
I went to Midnight Mass once. All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk. It smelled like a gd brewery in the chapel

My church growing up didn't have midnight mass, but it did have a candlelight Christmas service the Sunday before Christmas.  Back in the 80s or 90s, when hair was huge and shellacked with hairspray, the candle/hairspray mix resulted in some minor singeing of a girl's hair.  Her hair was extinguished without any permanent damage to her, fortunately.  Quite the excitement for our sleepy little town.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.5    3 years ago
Monopoly

Trivial Pursuit at our house.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.15  CB  replied to  Veronica @6.1    3 years ago
Midnight Mass

So there really is such a thing? And it is not just a movie on Netflix? No, really, this is a genuine (request for knowledge) question?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.16  CB  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.11    3 years ago

Stabbed? Pecs? Laughter? . . . Scar?  Back in the day, I dropped a switchblade into my thigh (accidentally while playing around opening it - of course) and got the scar right now to remember it!

I will be doing exhibitions of my scar (UPON REQUEST). Lines form in the back, please. . . .

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.17  Split Personality  replied to  CB @6.1.16    3 years ago

I find that after 60 years the only way scars really show up is when you go ice swimming

or whatever they call it, lol

When my hands are cold and wet they show every scar I ever got because my hands turn red where never

violated but white where scars used to exist prominently

I cannot find my hernia scar either but it has to be there.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.18  Split Personality  replied to  CB @6.1.15    3 years ago

Yes, my mother has shamed me and her grandchildren into many in PA & NJ.

It's real.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.19  CB  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.17    3 years ago

I have two hernia scars. The second one 'brand-spanking' new. Interestingly, I thought my first hernia scar was where my second one is. In other words, I thought my second surgery would be a re-patch! It is not. Lo and behold! My first scar is on the other side (of me).

It seems when a surgeon's team cuts away the 'pubes' you don't just get "naked" - you get facts like where old scars reside! (Smile.)  Yes, I can see it plain and clear (now). It's a very old scar!

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.20  Split Personality  replied to  CB @6.1.19    3 years ago

I remember not quite making it over a chain link fence cutting through veterans housing area at Rising Sun and Adams in Philly when I was 12 0r 13.

Was impaled for a minute or two before I reversed course, threw my baseball kit over the fence and made a better vault.

Played  our baseball game and went home limping.

Washed my uniform and never thought about it again.

During the hernia surgery they woke me 

demanding to know about previous groin surgeries.

They didn't believe me.

Guess I was just lucky.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.21  CB  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.20    3 years ago

Oucheeeeee!-Ooooooo-Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! I can feel the "imposition" placed on you at 12-13 and again at being awakened during surgery! Of all the nerve. What was "up" with that anesthesiologist?

That reminds me of a barium enema (?) or some other substance I drank (?) then got x-rayed and to this day no one can account for this specific bright spot on the film. I was queried about being shot ever in life? (NO. For that I would remember!)

It looks to be in a spot that would be uncomfortable for say, routine exploration looking for "determination." (Smile.)  To this day I don't have a read out about it. Wonder if it is still on me?

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.1.22  Veronica  replied to  CB @6.1.15    3 years ago

Yes, Midnight Mass is a thing.  Some of them can be truly beautiful.  Choirs sing beautiful hymns and the candles glow.  In the right Church it can be downright awe inspiring.  My daughter likes to attend the local Polish church.  It does more of the old fashioned Mass.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.23  CB  replied to  Veronica @6.1.22    3 years ago

Interesting. Curious, in your opinion, is the Polish "old fashioned Mass" one of the "downright awe-inspiring" services you mentioned?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.24  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.8    3 years ago
"I was stabbed once over Uno because we rented a house at the beach and it rained all week...."

I have a similar story.  Back in Toronto I belonged to a businessmen's organization - don't remember if it was the Kiwanis Club, but if not, then something like it, and they had a raffle at $100 a ticket and I bought in and WON.  It was for a weeklong trip to Rio de Janeiro for two, airfare and hotel.  I've never been to South America, or even Mexico, so I was so excited.  But my wife (now my ex) didn't want to go there, and I had to negotiate a trade with the travel agency to come up with the airfare and a week at a second-rate beach hotel in Miami Beach.  It was so cold all week, an unusual weather occurrence, that on the few days the sun was out we had to wear sweaters to lie on the beach. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.25  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.1.24    3 years ago

HA!

Now that is so very interesting. I mean it really. I so enjoy when a commenter shares something from the 'vault' of their life. I really do!  What causes me to laughter?

Well Buzz, you started a "similar story" with an opening about stabbing. So, I launched into your account looking to see how you offended and concern about your injury! (Smile.)

Good to learn you were just chilly and not brutally assaulted!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.26  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @6.1.25    3 years ago

Well it was almost half a century ago and things were very different in America back then, so I didn't even imagine back then that I would have been assaulted.  Today I wouldn't step one foot into America even to visit my grandchildren unless I was at least wearing body armour and had some kind of spray that would stop an attacker and even then I would be paranoid.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
6.1.27  Split Personality  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.1.24    3 years ago

Similarities, crappy weather during vacation.

Being stabbed compared to wearing sweaters, not so much.

But old people like to reminisce and some are known for rather tall fish stories.

The first time my newish wife met the old gang for dinner she tested me for accuracy.

She grabs a steak knife and says OK which one of you stabbed my old man over a game of UNO?

One guy almost spit his food out, another yelled OMG! and the widow of the ne'er do well

turned to the others with a quizzical look

and in unison they all said

"It was Yahtzee! not UNO, for cryin out loud !"

Good times, Good times!

jrSmiley_68_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.28  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6.1.26    3 years ago

Well, we're not that bad - yet. Though, I can understand the hesitancy due to all the pure-d hell and swaggering occurring "live" and in on our media-platforms! :) The majority of us are still just living our 'best life' in-spite of the tragedies occurring remotely.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.29  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @6.1.28    3 years ago

I know the vast majority of Americans are good people, but the problem is the size (and proliferation) of those who aren't.  I'm sure lots of Americans will blame it on the immigrants, but that isn't the real problem. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
6.1.30  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Split Personality @6.1.27    3 years ago

I shouldn't have used the word "similar", because of course being stabbed is a whole other story than a weather problem.  I have to admit that I mistakenly hadn't taken your comment about stabbing as being an actual physical act.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @6    3 years ago

Xmas is a means and an excuse to have and celebrate food, booze, and presents. These are a few of my favorite things jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2    3 years ago
Xmas is a means and an excuse to have and celebrate food, booze, and presents.

Things some people think Christmas means is revealing and astounding.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.2  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.1    3 years ago

A lot of disaffected, holy than thou people out there Tex .....

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.3  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.1    3 years ago

Yes, and? As was pointed out, Xmas means different things to different people. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.4  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.3    3 years ago
As was pointed out, Xmas means different things to different people. 

If people think Christmas is about food, booze and presents, then they should probably read a little about what Christmas actually is all about. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.5  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.2    3 years ago
A lot of disaffected, holy than thou people out there Tex .....

Haven't some of these folks been complaining about how Christians "stole" their "holidays", but isn't that what non-Christians who celebrate Christmas are doing?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.6  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.5    3 years ago

The denial can be strong in those ones.

Help them you can't

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.7  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.4    3 years ago

It's about whatever one wants it to be.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.8  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.7    3 years ago
It's about whatever one wants it to be.

Sorry, but that is simply idiotic.

Sounds like something made up to support crap that can't be logically defended.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.9  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.8    3 years ago

What you think means less than nothing! What Xmas means to you is likely different than what it means to me or anyone else too.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.10  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.9    3 years ago

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.

It isn't even debatable.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.11  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.10    3 years ago
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. It isn't even debatable.

For most people it is.   You will need to get used to the idea that this will grow less true over time.   Currently, it is absolutely NOT the case that Christmas is ONLY the celebration of the birth of Christ.   For me, it is the celebration of family.   It is, to me, a tradition with religious roots but is not a religious holiday.   And, importantly, I am far from being the only person on the planet who thinks this way.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.12  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.11    3 years ago
For me, it is the celebration of family.  

Then you have missed what Christmas is.

Your loss, I am sure.

Denying what Christmas IS because of what some people DO is silly. Do better.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.13  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.12    3 years ago
Then you have missed what Christmas is.

No I have not missed anything.   I am quite well versed in the religious history of Christmas.   The fact that I do not believe it is not a loss.   As I see things, it is a positive enlightenment.

Denying what Christmas IS because of what some people DO is silly. Do better.

Christmas has evolved over time.   Your argument would suggest that Christmas can only be what was true at a particular point in time (say, for example, 336 AD in Rome).

That is being blind to reality.    

What Christmas is, is a function of perception.   The perception of Christmas has changed over time.   While religious at inception (i.e. ceremonial celebration of the birth of Christ) the Christmas holiday has changed substantially since the time of Constantine.   It has evolved and will continue to do so regardless of your position.

Certainly you recognize that Christmas is substantially more than simply the celebration of the birth of Christ (think 'Santa Claus' for example).   This trend will likely continue so get used to it.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.14  Sunshine  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.12    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.2.15  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.14    3 years ago

Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?

That doesn't sound very Christian. On several levels.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.16  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.10    3 years ago

Maybe for you. But not for me, and i imagine, not for many others too. That is the historical Christian religion claim. Many do not celebrate Xmas as the time of Jesus' birth. If you want to sing Happy Birthday Jesus, that's fine for you. I'll just party and have fun.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.17  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.13    3 years ago
No I have not missed anything.

I think you have, and your posts bear that out.

Do you celebrate Hannukah?

How's about Easter?

Good Friday?

Yom Kippur?

Eid Al-fitr?

Diwali?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.18  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.16    3 years ago
Maybe for you. But not for me, and i imagine, not for many others too. That is the historical Christian religion claim. Many do not celebrate Xmas as the time of Jesus' birth. If you want to sing Happy Birthday Jesus, that's fine for you. I'll just party and have fun.

Then you, like TiG, are not celebrating Christmas but merely using it as an excuse for doing whatever it is you choose to do on that day.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.19  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.18    3 years ago

Uh yeah, I explicitly said I use it as an excuse to Celebrate and party. Were you paying attention? Hello? jrSmiley_123_smiley_image.gif

Doing what I want (or what anyone else wants) on Xmas is my point. That's how I view the day for me. Just as anyone else can view it for themselves however they wish. 

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.20  Sunshine  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.2.15    3 years ago
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?

That isn't Christmas.  [deleted]

Why not call it Family Day then?  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.20    3 years ago

What are you so pissed off about? Why can't we liberals celebrate Christmas alongside the conservatives? You are being very selfish about this whole holiday

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.2.22  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.20    3 years ago

You do know there are a lot of liberal Christians, yes?  I don't think they'd find much Christian love in your comment.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2.23  Kavika   replied to  Sunshine @6.2.20    3 years ago
That isn't Christmas.  Liberals don't want to celebrate Christ.  They want to celebrate themselves.  Surprised you can't understand the difference....not.

An opinion but like assholes everyone has one.

Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.24  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.19    3 years ago

so you aren't truly celebrating Christmas

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.25  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.24    3 years ago

I'm celebrating it my way. People eat, drink, and party on Xmas. Who are you to say they or I are not?

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.26  Sunshine  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.2.22    3 years ago
I don't think they'd find much Christian love in your comment.

I don't think they would find any in yours.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.27  Sunshine  replied to  Kavika @6.2.23    3 years ago
An opinion but like assholes everyone has one.

Yep no doubt.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.28  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.25    3 years ago

you aren't celebrating Christmas. you are just partying.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.29  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.26    3 years ago

Sandy is not a Christian but you claim to be

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.30  Sunshine  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.28    3 years ago
you aren't celebrating Christmas. you are just partying.

They don't know the difference.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.31  Sunshine  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.29    3 years ago
Sandy is not a Christian but you claim to be

Deleted

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.32  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.31    3 years ago

So....you're not a Christian? Sorry I made that assumption. I heartily apologize

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.33  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.28    3 years ago

Partying is how I celebrate. Celebrations often involve partying too

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.34  Sunshine  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.32    3 years ago

My religion is no concern of yours.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.2.35  Veronica  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.20    3 years ago

Seems someone is bashing Christians.  There are A LOT of Liberal Christians.

Go drink some eggnog & calm down.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.36  Texan1211  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.30    3 years ago

that is absolutely true.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.37  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.33    3 years ago

obtuse.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.38  Sunshine  replied to  Veronica @6.2.35    3 years ago
There are A LOT of Liberal Christians.

According to the bashers they are all Conservative Thumpers.

Egg Nog sounds good, Cheers!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.39  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.34    3 years ago
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?
That isn't Christmas.  Liberals don't want to celebrate Christ.  They want to celebrate themselves. 

You're right that your religion (I prefer the word faith) is none of my business but you're the one that seems to be insisting that liberals have no business celebrating Xmas because they don't celebrate Christ. So you're basically telling all of us that you are a conservative Christian with your bashing of liberals celebrating Xmas.

p.s. There are many liberal Christians. I know Sandy already told you that but I think you might need a refresher

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.2.40  Veronica  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.38    3 years ago
According to the bashers they are all Conservative Thumpers.

Show me where.  I won't hold my breath because you are talking out your ass - maybe you have already indulged in too much eggnog.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.41  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.38    3 years ago
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?
That isn't Christmas.  Liberals don't want to celebrate Christ.  They want to celebrate themselves. 

One basher. One. And I'm pretty sure he isn't lumping all Christians together. Just the real annoying ones who insist on knocking at one's door on a Saturday at 0800.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
6.2.42  Veronica  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.39    3 years ago
bashing of liberals

She is bashing liberal Christians - which would make her the subject of this whole article....hmmm I wonder if that was Nerm's intention.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.43  Sunshine  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.39    3 years ago

Wow, get a grip.

I don't give a shit what you do on Christmas day.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.44  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @6.2.42    3 years ago

I doubt it

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.45  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.43    3 years ago

Apparently you do. I shouldn't be celebrating Xmas. That's been your mantra all through here.

I think you're the one that needs to get a grip. I'm not the one on an angry tirade.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.46  Sunshine  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.45    3 years ago
I shouldn't be celebrating Xmas. That's been your mantra all through here.

Never said one word that someone shouldn't be celebrating Christmas.  But you will read what you want to read.

You have a good day Trout.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
6.2.47  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.46    3 years ago

Don't be snarky with "have a good day, Trout". You don't mean it.

And you need to go back and read all your words on what you've said about liberal Christians. The fact is you know you went over the line but now don't have the ovaries to stand behind them. Bad form

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.48  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.37    3 years ago

How so? Xmases involve parties, right? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.49  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.48    3 years ago

No worries, I know not everyone gets it or knows what Christmas is.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.50  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.49    3 years ago

Like I said, Xmas means different things to different people.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.51  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.50    3 years ago

I would love to hear what exactly you celebrate and how it relates to the birth of Christ.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.52  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.51    3 years ago

Celebrate to have fun. Like I said, Xmas is a good excuse to do so. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.53  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.52    3 years ago

so, nothing to do with what Christmas really is, which is what I figured all along.

thanks for the confirmation

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.54  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.53    3 years ago

Perhaps nothing to do with what you think your idea of Xmas is. But as I repeatedly said, Xmas means different things to different people. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.55  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @6.2.54    3 years ago

no need to explain, I realize your concept of it has zero to do with actual Christmas

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
6.2.56  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.55    3 years ago

Xmas is essentially a big birthday party. I'm simply engaging in birthday festivities. That's good enough for me.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.2.57  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.26    3 years ago

To each her own.  We seem to have different ideas regarding love and kindness.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.58  Sunshine  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.2.57    3 years ago

Yes we certainly do.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.2.59  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.58    3 years ago

I, for one, believe that Christianity is supposed to be about love.  Love of family included.  Somehow, wanting to celebrate with family is "fucking it up."

Something tells me Jesus would have liked the fact that I love my family.  I doubt he would think that fucks anything up.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
6.2.60  Sunshine  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.2.59    3 years ago

As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval. I doubt Jesus would approve of your strict rules and boundaries on how love and kindness is expressed.  But he still would love you.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
6.2.61  Ender  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.2.59    3 years ago
Something tells me Jesus would have liked the fact that I love my family

Well, most of the time...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
6.2.62  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.60    3 years ago
As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval.

Nope.  I celebrate Christmas with my work family, and my friends.

Hell, I even wished a total stranger at Costco a Merry Christmas today after helping her find the prettier gift wrap at the back of the bin.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.63  TᵢG  replied to  Sunshine @6.2.60    3 years ago
As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval.

What is the point of you making shit up like this?   Where did Sandy stipulate that love and kindness is only okay if it meets some unstated criteria?   Seems to me you are working overtime trying to find something for which to be offended and will invent a reason if one is not presented by your interlocutor.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
7  Ender    3 years ago

So there is no profit in religious celebration...

Better skip the collection plate...

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
7.1  XXJefferson51  replied to  Ender @7    3 years ago

The collection plate is to break even with expenses and promote the ministries to serve our community and the world.  We Protestants at least are non profit organizations 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  XXJefferson51 @7.1    3 years ago

Tell that to Joel Osteen

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
7.1.2  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @7.1.1    3 years ago

Jeez, I heard that that $500K was only half of what they take in on a weekend

and that was 7 years ago?

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
7.1.3  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @7.1    3 years ago

The collection plate is to break even with expenses and promote the ministries to serve our community and the world.  We Protestants at least are non profit organizations 

They don't even pay taxes. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
7.1.4  Split Personality  replied to  MrFrost @7.1.3    3 years ago

Promoting Ministers in Mansions and their Maserati's and personal jets, as non profits.

The effing gall of it all.

smh

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  MrFrost @7.1.3    3 years ago
They don't even pay taxes.

Nor should they.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @7.1.4    3 years ago

As the Clinton's and Obama's laugh their asses off  at their useful idiots from their non profits, private jets, multiple mansions and luxury vacation properties

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
7.2  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @7    3 years ago
So there is no profit in religious celebration... Better skip the collection plate...

Did you know that The Salvation Army is a Protestant Christian church?  If you drop change into a Salvation Army red kettle then you are making a donation to a Christian church.

"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
9  bugsy    3 years ago

Even for Dulay if she sees this...

Maligayang Pasko
 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
10  Just Jim NC TttH    3 years ago

The new hot gift for this year...................

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
11  zuksam    3 years ago

I just read a story about a group (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation) that's complaining about Wreaths Across America a group that lays Wreaths on Military Gravesites. I didn't know that Wreaths were particularly religious, sure they are a traditional Christmas decoration but so are snowflakes and snowmen. A Wreath is about as religious as Cornstalks tied to a fencepost, more a sign of the season than religious object. Seems nitpicky to me. Even if you see Wreaths strictly as Christmas decorations there are two versions of Christmas, one is the Religious Christian Holiday, and the other is the Secular Santa Claus version and Wreaths work with either.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
11.1  Split Personality  replied to  zuksam @11    3 years ago

It's weird isn't it. in the 70's when my Uncle, a survivor of German concentration camps would have us for Hanakah

at the end of the evening he always said he loved us but prayed for no snow during Xmas in PA.

Even the snow was tainted, lol.

Apparently the wreath was an important part of the earlier religions absorbed by Christianity.

Are wreaths a religious symbol? – TheKnowledgeBurrow.com

But I agree with the Cornstalk analogy, and we have several seasonal wreaths even heart shapes for Valentines Day

and wine themed ones with corks and grapes.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
11.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  zuksam @11    3 years ago

Some people just need to find something, ANYTHING to be offended by. Just gotta shake your head these days.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
11.2.1  cjcold  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @11.2    3 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
11.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  zuksam @11    3 years ago

I think this time they have gone too far. There's nothing inherently religious in an Xmas wreath. I think it's a nice gesture to honor the fallen

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.4  Sparty On  replied to  zuksam @11    3 years ago

I was curious about its origins so i googled it.   Interesting stuff:

That said, today this is nothing more than hater gotta hate.

Nothing more .....

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
11.5  Sunshine  replied to  zuksam @11    3 years ago
I just read a story about a group (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation) that's complaining about Wreaths Across America a group that lays Wreaths on Military Gravesites.

Someday all gestures of kindness and gratitude will be condemned to not offend anyone about anything.  I feel for our generations to come that have to live in such an ugly place.  

I guess this is what America wants now.

 
 
 
Steve Ott
Professor Quiet
12  Steve Ott    3 years ago

The story of the Christian celebration of Christmas depends very much upon the century and the particular Christian group you are talking about. Orthodox Christmas isn't until January 7th. The Puritans outlawed celebrating Christmas.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
12.1  MrFrost  replied to  Steve Ott @12    3 years ago
The Puritans outlawed celebrating Christmas.

Well those dirty rotten....

 
 
 
Hallux
Masters Principal
13  Hallux    3 years ago

Oh humbug, once again I'll overcook the lump of coal.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
14  Buzz of the Orient    3 years ago

Although Christmas may originally have been a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus and the recalling of kindness among all people, those were days of dreaming of a white Christmas that would actually happen, whereas these days manufacturers and retailers dream of a green Christmas and they are getting it, and not only that, but it's starting to happen environmentally as well.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
15  al Jizzerror    3 years ago

512

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
16  XXJefferson51    3 years ago

Fox News Media's All-American Christmas Tree rebuilt, relit at NYC headquarters following arson attack

Crowds gathered outside FOX Square for the tree-lighting ceremony

FOX News Media held a tree-lighting ceremony for its newly-rebuilt All-American Christmas Tree roughly 24 hours after it was destroyed by an arsonist.
Crowds and Christmas carolers gathered outside
 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
16.1  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @16    3 years ago
Fox Square Thursday evening to witness the lighting of the All-American Christmas Tree.  

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fox-news-media-all-american-christmas-tree-returns
 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
17  al Jizzerror    3 years ago

512

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18  sandy-2021492    3 years ago

Nobody is bashing the Christian celebration of Christmas.

They bash the myth of the "war on Christmas".

They bash the refusal of some Christians to understand and accept that theirs is not the only holiday celebrated near mid-winter, and their insistence that we "keep Christ in Christmas (which some folks don't celebrate)" and that everybody wish them a "merry Christmas" rather than a more-inclusive "happy holidays".

Every year, around Thanksgiving, I start seeing Facebook posts shared around telling me that "It's Merry Christmas, NOT Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings" from those childish and perpetually offended snowflakes who get upset about people hoping that they have happy holidays.

There's some bashing, but it's not starting with non-Christians.  Some Christians are forgetting the Golden Rule, and reaping the results of their stubborn refusal to abide by the rules they'd like to impose on others.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18    3 years ago

Your rationalizations of what is and isn't bashing are ridiculous and typical of the hypocritical left.

Pick and chose, pick and chose.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1    3 years ago

How so?  Where do you see people actually bashing Christmas celebrations by Christians?  Be clear and provide real instances.  Vague claims of persecution will not suffice.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.1    3 years ago

So, your example of Merry Christmas.   You think Christians started that disconnect?   I certainly don't.   That started when progressives started insisting that Merry Christmas should not used and Happy Holidays should be used in its place.  That is a relatively new thing.   I could care less what you call it but don't tell folks they can't use Merry Christmas and ostracize them when they do.     Thats a verbal assault on Christian beliefs .... period.

You are only fooling yourself if you think Christians started that brouhaha

I could go on but i know i'm wasting my breath with folks who are Christians haters.   People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly.

That said, in the end i could care less what people say or think about my faith.   But it is satisfying to call the hypocrisy out from time to time and watch the rationalizations really spin out of control

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.2    3 years ago

Nobody told you that you can't use "Merry Christmas."

So, you've provided vague examples of nonexistent persecution, and a little ad hom to boot.  Such an argument is neither convincing nor Christ-like.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.2    3 years ago

Sandy didn't tell anyone not to use Merry Christmas. Personally I don't care what you tell me, just don't call me late for Happy Hour

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.3    3 years ago
Nobody told you that you can't use "Merry Christmas."

How would you know that?

The answer is you couldn't.   Suffice it to say you are simply wrong on this topic.

Dead wrong.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.4    3 years ago
Personally I don't care what you tell me, just don't call me late for Happy Hour

That .... would never happen.

Never

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.5    3 years ago

First Amendment is how.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.8  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.7    3 years ago

Bullshit, you think that stops the triggered from bashing people who use Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays?

Sorry, that's just obtuse reasoning.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.8    3 years ago

You're equating "bashing on", which I have literally never heard anyone do, with "telling Christians they can't".  Because that's all you've got to bolster your false claims of persecution.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
18.1.10  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.9    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.12  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.9    3 years ago

Like i said, just becasue you say you've never seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  

And i question the veracity of your comments here when you try to tell me that it's never happened to me when there is no way in hell you could ever know that.

[deleted] Again, i could care less what you call it but look no further than this seed for prove of peoples shitty attitude towards others who use Merry Christmas and that's just one example.

As i said, this discussion is pointless so i'll leave the last word to you

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
18.1.13  Tessylo  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.11    3 years ago

You 'weren't allowed'?  What was stopping you from calling it Christmas vacation anyway?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.14  Sparty On  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.11    3 years ago
Not sure if they are doing that still,

Oh, you can bet many are still doing that, more probably today.    

No doubt about it

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
18.1.15  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.11    3 years ago

Yes they still are...........at least in my wife's school system.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.16  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @18.1.13    3 years ago
What was stopping you from calling it Christmas vacation anyway?

I'm just spitballing here but maybe her desire and tradition to call it Merry Christmas?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.17  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.12    3 years ago

More ad hom.  Still no substantiation for your claims.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.18  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.16    3 years ago

How in the world would her desire to call it Merry Christmas (strange name for a school break, I must say) keep her from doing so?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.19  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.18    3 years ago

My bad, i meant Christmas vacation .... got my posts mixed up

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.2    3 years ago
... folks who are Christians haters ...

This is a perfect example of what Sandy is talking about.   You gratuitously translate her comments into 'Christian hate'.   And don't play the game of 'I did not say that' because she was your target by context.

People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly.

Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'.   That strikes me as looking for a way to be a victim.   I have yet to see Sandy make claims like "Christians are evil" or "Christians are all stupid" or "Christians are dangerous", etc. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.21  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.20    3 years ago
Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'. 

And some people interpret bashing as "counter arguments".

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.22  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.20    3 years ago
This is a perfect example of what Sandy is talking about.   You gratuitously translate her comments into 'Christian hate'.

You can keep trying to spin it otherwise but you would be just as wrong as Sandy.   The hate on display here on NT alone towards Christianity while sometimes cleverly veiled, is clear as day to even the most casual of viewers.   The Merry Christmas issue is just one good example.   It's preposterous to intimate that Christians started that issue.   Absolutely preposterous.

   And don't play the game of 'I did not say that' because she was your target by context.

Ridiculous, I don't play games here.   I've never run from any reasonable line of questioning here ever.   Least of all yours or Sandys.  

Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'.   That strikes me as looking for a way to be a victim.   I have yet to see Sandy make claims like "Christians are evil" or "Christians are all stupid" or "Christians are destroying the nation", etc.

I'm getting deja vu all over again.   This reminds me of the "Faith" debate where you simply denied one definition of "Faith" to make your point.    To "bash" is to strike violently or to attack physically or verbally.   I stated very clearly what has happened to me in the past.   Verbal attacks from people who don't like the phrase Merry Christmas.   Sandy tried to tell me that it hadn't happened to me, which is impossible for her to know.   Verbal assaults like that are becoming more and more regular these days towards people of faith.   That is undeniable and trying to gaslight as otherwise is simply ignorant.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.23  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.19    3 years ago

That still doesn't explain how her desire to call it a Christmas vacation would prevent her from doing so.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.24  TᵢG  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.9    3 years ago

Lots of victim-hood going on here.    Personally I do not care if someone or some business advertises 'Merry Christmas' rather than go generic with 'Happy Holidays' or equivalent.   Our nation is predominantly Christian so I expect it.   But it is not Christian-bashing for people to object to a business catering to a single religion.   That is a silly overreaction.

Christian bashing would be unfairly attacking Christians in general.   I cannot imagine that many people who would do that.   Who among us does not have mostly Christian friends and family?   Would we bash aunt Mary because she is a devout Catholic??    Why?

The bashing that is done is typically in response to Christian-based claims such as the nonsense of the YECs.   If someone seeks to dumb down society with a belief that our planet is 6,000 years old, etc. they need to be bashed.   The fact that their nonsense is religious and they are Christians is irrelevant.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.25  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.22    3 years ago
You can keep trying to spin it ...

No, Sparty, it is YOU who are doing the spinning.   Face up to what you do on the site rather than always, consistently project onto others.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.26  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.21    3 years ago

Nobody's bashing Christians.  Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.

Getting offended by "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings", however, is bashing religions other than Christianity.  It implies that one is wrong to use a salutation that includes Hanukkah.  That strikes me as antisemitic.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.27  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.21    3 years ago
And some people interpret bashing as "counter arguments".

Apparently so.   Do you think it is appropriate to label a counter argument as bashing?

Similarly, do you think it is appropriate to label disagreement as an attack?

When people affix their own atypical meaning to common words, that screws up communication.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.28  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.23    3 years ago

I don't know, perhaps she's just a nice person who doesn't want to rock the boat but lets turn it around to what started this whole thing.

Why don't the people who can't call it "Christmas" vacation grow a thicker skin and just let it go?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.29  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.25    3 years ago

No, Sparty, it is YOU who are doing the spinning.

Lol ... no Tig. i'm not.    Not in the least but by all means.   Explain how i am spinning my own experiences.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.30  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.28    3 years ago
Why don't the people who can't call it "Christmas" vacation grow a thicker skin and just let it go?

Generally, I agree with you here.   But note that our nation is growing increasingly diverse in terms of religion.   Approximately 65-% of the nation identify as Christian.   Thus, logically, we need to acknowledge that Christmas is not strictly a Christian holiday or we need to recognize that there are other religions that should not be drowned out by Christianity.   And, of course, there are the irreligious who do not want the constant delivery of Christian messages and images.

Our nation continues to grow more diverse so I think the thicker skin argument runs both ways.   Christians need to lighten up too.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.31  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.29    3 years ago
Explain how i am spinning my own experiences.

I did not claim you are spinning your own experiences.    I claimed that you are spinning what I and others are writing.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.32  sandy-2021492  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.24    3 years ago

I'd say everyone who is a member of this site except maybe Buzz is surrounded by Christians most of the time, as we live in a majority Christian nation.

And I'd say most of those who are accused of bashing are probably like me - we have Christmas trees and lights up (or will soon), and probably exchange gifts and have gatherings with our families.  We eat, drink, and make merry, and reminisce on old times, and miss those who are no longer with us, and take joy from the fact that we had them in our lives for the time we did.

We just don't share the religious beliefs.  But somehow saying so is "bashing".  Somehow, knowing that Christmas trees started as Yule logs is "bashing".  Knowing that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but that other festivals did have that date) is "bashing".  Recognizing other religions is "bashing".

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.33  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.30    3 years ago
Our nation continues to grow more diverse so I think the thicker skin argument runs both ways.   Christians need to lighten up too.

As i have said numerous times here, i could care less what people call it.   My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't or shouldn't call it.

That, is the major distinction here.    In my case anyways.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.34  TᵢG  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.32    3 years ago
We just don't share the religious beliefs.  But somehow saying so is "bashing".  Somehow, knowing that Christmas trees started as Yule logs is "bashing".  Knowing that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but that other festivals did have that date) is "bashing".  Recognizing other religions is "bashing".

Exactly!   It strikes me as over-reaction to claim victimization.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.35  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.33    3 years ago
My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't call it.

Well if I wished someone Merry Christmas (as I routinely do in response to the same wish) and someone objected to my response, my hackles would go up too.

Thing is, I bet you $$$$ that Sandy would respond just like you and I would.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.36  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.27    3 years ago
Do you think it is appropriate to label a counter argument as bashing?

Yes, whenever it IS bashing.

Similarly, do you think it is appropriate to label disagreement as anattack?

Yes, whenever it IS an attack.

When people affix their own atypical meaning to common words, that screws up communication

And whenever people try to ignore commonly accepted definitions of words, become bogged down over definitions instead of what the posts actually convey, that certainly  screws up "communication"

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.37  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.33    3 years ago
My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't or shouldn't call it.

Who has told you that you can't say Merry Christmas? Specifically...someone in your real life? someone here on NT?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.38  sandy-2021492  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.35    3 years ago

I would, and do, and often am the first to say "Merry Christmas."

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.39  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.26    3 years ago

(deleted)

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.40  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.39    3 years ago

Why, exactly, are you quoting my words to me?

Be specific.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.41  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.26    3 years ago
Nobody's bashing Christians. 

Bullshit, plain and simple.

Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.

I see no one making the claim otherwise.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.42  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.31    3 years ago
I claimed that you are spinning what I and others are writing.  

Had i "specifically" accused you or anyone else here of that, the posts would already be gone.

Yeah, there are people here who regularly bash Christians.   No spin to that at all.   That's just a fact.

Not sure why you having such trouble with that.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
18.1.43  Sunshine  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.41    3 years ago
Nobody's bashing Christians. 
Bullshit, plain and simple.

I suppose using derogatory terms such as "thumpers" is a kind expression. jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.44  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.36    3 years ago
Yes, whenever it IS bashing.

A counter-argument is not bashing.   It might contain bashing but that goes beyond the definition of counter-argument.

In and of itself, offering a counter to an argument is not bashing.  

You effectively said that bashing is bashing.

Yes, whenever it IS an attack.

And now you do the same with disagreement.   Disagreement in and of itself is not an attack.   One must add attack language.   Thus you have stated that an attack is an attack.


Think about this Texan, one could make a supporting argument and include bashing within it.   One could also agree and weave bashing into the agreement.

Stop trying to mess with the meaning of common words.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.45  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.41    3 years ago
Bullshit, plain and simple.

Good grief man, don't just chop off the context.   Here is Sandy's next (and critically important) sentence which qualifies her meaning:

Sandy @18.1.26 ☞ Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.

Use common sense.  Obviously Sandy is not claiming that on the entire planet nobody bashes Christians.   Cherry-picking a single sentence to create a strawman is intellectually dishonest.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.46  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.37    3 years ago

Okay, over the years .... family, friends, random acquaintances, teachers, profs, smartasses online, etc, etc

Try this sometime this holiday season.   Go to a place where you usually say Happy Holidays and say Merry Christmas instead.   See what happens.   I'm not saying people will tell you not to say Merry Christmas but the uncomfortable index meter will likely start pegging ....

I for one think it is ridiculous that i have places i need to say Happy Holidays for people to be comfortable or Merry Christmas for people to be comfortable and i'm expected to know the difference.

Absolutely ridiculous in both cases

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.47  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @18.1.43    3 years ago

Some people have had horrible experiences with a specific type of Christian church and/or cult and it has colored their world view. Why don't you consider that the next time that word offends you? As a kind, caring, Christian as I know you are, I really shouldn't have to remind you

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.48  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.38    3 years ago

So am I. It's a habit that I'm not ashamed of because I grew up saying it. And living in the south I don't know people of other faiths so it has really become a habit

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.49  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.46    3 years ago
I'm not saying people will tell you not to say Merry Christmas but the uncomfortable index meter will likely start pegging ....

I think this is something we will need to simply accept.   As the nation grows more religiously diverse we necessarily will see the dominance of Christianity wane.    Christmas, since that is our focus, will need to be viewed in more general terms (not simply a Christian holiday) or we will continue to move to more inclusive language for the population such as "Seasons Greetings" / "Happy Holidays".

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.50  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.46    3 years ago

Living here in the South, I always say Merry Christmas. Saying Happy Holidays around here is sure to start a ruckus

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.51  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.41    3 years ago
Bullshit, plain and simple.

Quotes?

I see no one making the claim otherwise.

Public Policy Polling (PPP) is   out this week with a new survey   that untangles some of the tortured politics of holiday greetings. The firm asked 1,224 voters whether they preferred “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays.” Some of the   findings turn the politics of “Merry Christmas” on its head.

Only 9 percent of Americans preferred the nondenominational greeting, vs. 45 percent who prefer a traditional “Merry Christmas." (46 percent said they didn't care.)

Only 3 percent of respondents said they'd be personally offended if somebody said “Merry Christmas” to them. But 13 percent said “Happy Holidays” would be offensive to them.

So, individuals who opt for the more inclusive, nondenominational “Happy Holidays” may end up offending more people than if they'd just said “Merry Christmas” in the first place.

Interestingly, the demographic groups most offended by “Happy Holidays” include strong conservatives (21 percent), Gary Johnson voters (20 percent), Trump supporters (18 percent) and all men (18 percent). These are the same groups of people that   tend to say there is too much political correctness   in society, yielding a paradox: The folks who complain the most about political correctness are the ones who are the most offended by what they see as “incorrect” speech.

To frame it another way,   conservatives often caricature liberals   as too quick to take offense over politically incorrect speech. But in the PPP poll, people who described themselves as “very conservative” were more than twice as likely to be offended by “Happy Holidays” (21 percent) as “very liberal” respondents were to be offended by “Merry Christmas” (10 percent).

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
18.1.52  Sunshine  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.47    3 years ago

We have all had our own horrible experiences in life.  Most educated adults know not to stereotype and bash an entire group.  

You now nothing about me so please do not talk out of your ass about me.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.53  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.48    3 years ago
I see no one making the claim otherwise.

Same.  To my knowledge, there are no Jewish people in my county.  I have seen a few people I believe are Muslims and Hindus, but not very many.  The vast majority are Christians, and I know a few atheists.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.55  TᵢG  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.54    3 years ago

The teachers have a tough gig.   Caught between a rock and a hard spot.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.56  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.45    3 years ago
Use common sense.  Obviously Sandy is not claiming that on the entire planet nobody bashes Christians.   Cherry-picking a single sentence to create a strawman is intellectually dishonest.

Your condescending replies are not desired by me, so please use it on someone else.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
18.1.57  MrFrost  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.37    3 years ago

Who has told you that you can't say Merry Christmas? Specifically...someone in your real life? someone here on NT?

You won't be getting a specific answer to that question. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.58  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.54    3 years ago

Ah, so, a term of employment from an agency of a government that is not supposed to endorse one religion over another, especially with a captive audience of children?

And I'm quite sure that your daughter was allowed to call it whatever she wanted, especially at home.

Some employers prefer to be religiously neutral, as their customers may be followers of religions other than Christianity.  So they have their employees use religiously neutral greetings, especially if they are located in culturally diverse areas.  That's just good for business.

Of course, after they clock out, those employees can use whichever they want in their non-business interactions.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
18.1.59  Ender  replied to  Sunshine @18.1.52    3 years ago

Trout said, as a kind and caring Christian

You say, don't talk out your ass about me....

Ok, I guess calling someone a kind and caring Christian is a bad thing...

Fitting I guess.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.60  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.56    3 years ago

That is another word you misuse.   Every time I show you to be wrong you deem it as 'condescending'.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.61  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sunshine @18.1.52    3 years ago

That was rude. I don't even know what brought that on.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.62  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.53    3 years ago

I know of atheists where I work and I don't think they care. There are some Muslims and maybe one Hindu that I know of. But pretty much everyone is Christian

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.65  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.49    3 years ago

Agree but diversity is not the one way street many people try to make it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.66  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.50    3 years ago

Lol .... it pisses me off just as much when someone gives me shit about saying Happy Holidays and when they do it for saying Merry Christmas.

Everyone just needs to R E L A X ...... live and let live i say.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.67  Texan1211  replied to  Sunshine @18.1.43    3 years ago

Some people would probably wish we would ignore those attacks, as it destroys the narrative that it isn't happening.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.68  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.60    3 years ago

You can pretend you aren't as long as you like, and I'll continue to point it out.

Your approval isn't necessary.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.69  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.66    3 years ago

Why get pissed off?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.70  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.64    3 years ago

If they would acknowledge all holidays, that would be fine.  But I think we all know they don't.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.71  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.69    3 years ago

I was going to just say why not but since you and i turned over a new leaf right?

Because it shouldn't matter which you say.   That's just some more judgemental, sanctimonious bullshit when people call you out on stuff like that.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.1.72  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.71    3 years ago

I say walk away and go get another beer. Life is too short to be in a perpetual snit...except when I'm driving

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.73  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.70    3 years ago
If they would acknowledge all holidays, that would be fine.  But I think we all know they don't.

Stop with the sweeping generalizations please ....

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.74  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.72    3 years ago

Good advice, that i follow at lot .... but not always.jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.75  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.73    3 years ago

Flag it if it bothers you.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.76  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.68    3 years ago

A better tactic would be to not make comments that are easily shown to be wrong.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.77  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.75    3 years ago

Nah, i usually leave that for others and you know it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.78  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.77    3 years ago
Flagging Members should refrain from disciplining other members. If someone is violating the CoC, members should make no comment but rather use the flagging system to report it to the moderators. Flagging for "Off Topic" can only be made by the seeder/ author.

So, either flag it, or deal with me saying it.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.79  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.78    3 years ago
flag it

If i wanted to, i already would have.   Don't need instructions.

That said, if you don't like MY comments feel free to flag them.

Otherwise they remains as is.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.80  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.79    3 years ago
Don't need instructions.

Neither do I, Sparty, and yet you presumed to issue instructions.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  I was not the first to issue instructions, BTW.  That was you.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.1.81  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.76    3 years ago
A better tactic would be to not make comments that are easily shown to be wrong.

Maybe, but I am finding that simply ignoring condescending people will work better for me, especially those intent on having the last word.

 
 
 
Sunshine
Professor Quiet
18.1.85  Sunshine  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.84    3 years ago

Thanks Kathleen.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.86  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sparty On @18.1    3 years ago

I couldn’t have better described the content of the post we are responding to.  Well said!  🥳👍👏🎄

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.87  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.2    3 years ago
I could care less what you call it but don't tell folks they can't use Merry Christmas and ostracize them when they do.     Thats a verbal assault on Christian beliefs .... period.

Exactly!  Well said and right on!  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.88  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.2    3 years ago
I could go on but i know i'm wasting my breath with folks who are Christians haters.   People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly. That said, in the end i could care less what people say or think about my faith.   But it is satisfying to call the hypocrisy out from time to time and watch the rationalizations really spin out of control

bravo!  👍👏

 
 
 
Hallux
Masters Principal
18.1.89  Hallux  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.1.86    3 years ago

'We' know.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.90  XXJefferson51  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.11    3 years ago

I still make a point of Calling it Christmas vacation and Easter vacation instead of the seasonal alternatives.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.91  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.21    3 years ago
And some people interpret bashing as "counter arguments".

The bottom line on this subject…

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.92  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.22    3 years ago

Reminds of when it was said that it’s possible that a god exists… but, the only God that can not possibly exist is the one of the Bible that Christians believe in.  It’s the only “God” that can not possibly exist….

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.1.93  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.1.92    3 years ago
Reminds of when it was said that it’s possible that a god exists… but, the only God that can not possibly exist is the one of the Bible that Christians believe in.  It’s the only “God” that can not possibly exist….

Fantasy land here XX?    The gods that cannot exist —as defined— are those whose definitions are self-contradictory.

That is how it works.    That which is defined as a contradiction cannot logically exist —as defined—.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.94  XXJefferson51  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.54    3 years ago

Where I work it’s not even an issue.  No one here would tell another to say “winter” break instead of Christmas vacation.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.95  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @18.1.56    3 years ago
Your condescending replies are not desired by me, so please use it on someone else.

some on the secular left feel it their right to talk down to us theistic conservatives because they can…

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.96  XXJefferson51  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.63    3 years ago

That is exactly why the term is used here.  It is intended to offend.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.97  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.70    3 years ago

And you know that exactly how?  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.98  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.75    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.99  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.78    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.1.100  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @18.1.93    3 years ago

God exists and His Son is The Reason for the ChristMass Season.  

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.1.101  author  Nerm_L  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.1.95    3 years ago
some on the secular left feel it their right to talk down to us theistic conservatives because they can…

Some of that is because the secular left isn't as inclusive so doesn't understand what we're talking about.  Christianity has achieved more inclusive diversity than secular society.  

You know, the secular left can join us in enjoying the celebration of the birth of Christ.  They don't have to become Christians.  Christians are more open minded, they won't exclude non-Christians from the celebration.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.1.102  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Kathleen @18.1.83    3 years ago
Agreed. Life is too short to be offended by everything. 

Life is too short. Period.  Why waste time on the unimportant stuff?

You know, the secular atheists say they celebrate what is important to them.  Why should they waste time complaining about Christians celebrating what is important to Christians?  Those complaints seem to be a life waster.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.103  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.1.102    3 years ago
Why should they waste time complaining about Christians celebrating what is important to Christians?

They haven't been.  That's just another of the many straw men you've raised up here.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.104  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.1.101    3 years ago
You know, the secular left can join us in enjoying the celebration of the birth of Christ.  They don't have to become Christians.

Some people here have described how they do just that.  They were told they were "fucking it up".

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
18.1.105  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @18.1.102    3 years ago
Why waste time on the unimportant stuff?

Like the focus of your blog?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.106  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.80    3 years ago

Actually, since you did make a massive sweeping generalization, it appears you do need instruction.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.107  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.106    3 years ago

Flag it if it bothers you.

Flagging Members should refrain from disciplining other members. If someone is violating the CoC, members should make no comment but rather use the flagging system to report it to the moderators.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.108  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.107    3 years ago

I didn’t stutter

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.109  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.108    3 years ago

No.  You trolled.

Flag it if it bothers you.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.110  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.109    3 years ago
No.  You trolled.

Again, feel free to flag it if it bothers you.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.1.111  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @18.1.110    3 years ago

You overestimate the effectiveness of your trolling.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
18.1.112  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.1.111    3 years ago

Lol .... you overestimate the quality of your bait.    Not biting.     Besides, one can’t overestimate something one hasn’t done in the first place.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
18.1.113  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.1.100    3 years ago
God exists

That's nice. Prove it!

 It’s the only “God” that can not possibly exist…

There's no evidence of any god/s existing.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18    3 years ago

I reminded a face book friend that holiday is actually an amalgam of the words Holy Day and happy holidays is to wish every one of every faith a blessed season. She didn't argue and actually thanked me for telling her that

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.2.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.2    3 years ago

Yup.  "Happy holidays" covers it all.  It is wishing somebody a merry Christmas, among all the other holidays celebrated this time of year.  To me, it's just an easy way to cover all the bases.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18    3 years ago
Nobody is bashing the Christian celebration of Christmas.

They bash the myth of the "war on Christmas".

They bash the refusal of some Christians to understand and accept that theirs is not the only holiday celebrated near mid-winter, and their insistence that we "keep Christ in Christmas (which some folks don't celebrate)" and that everybody wish them a "merry Christmas" rather than a more-inclusive "happy holidays".

Every year, around Thanksgiving, I start seeing Facebook posts shared around telling me that "It's Merry Christmas, NOT Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings" from those childish and perpetually offended snowflakes who get upset about people hoping that they have happy holidays.

There's some bashing, but it's not starting with non-Christians.  Some Christians are forgetting the Golden Rule, and reaping the results of their stubborn refusal to abide by the rules they'd like to impose on others.

Christmas is a religious holiday.

The new modern tradition is to recount the history of the holiday season; solstice celebrations, pagan celebrations, celebrations in ancient Egyptian, Middle Eastern, Greek, and Roman cultures.  That history emphasizes the religious roots of the Christmas holiday.

The Christmas holiday has always been about religious celebrations since before recorded history.  Stonehenge was constructed to celebrate what we call the Christmas holiday.

The 'War on Christmas' is an attempt to secularize the holiday.  Christmas, or whatever the hell you want to call it, has never, ever been a secular holiday for thousands of years.  Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration throughout human history.  Christmas is a holy day, no matter what religious beliefs are celebrated.  Secular atheists can make no claim on Christmas as their holiday.  There is no freedom from religion on Christmas.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.3.1  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3    3 years ago
Christmas is a religious holiday.

For some, not for everyone.   You recognize that, right?

The 'War on Christmas' is an attempt to secularize the holiday. 

Our nation is growing less Christian each year.   The holiday will either grow more inclusive or will be marginalized.   This is a force of nature, Nerm, nobody has to do anything for this to occur.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3    3 years ago

It is now both a religious and secular holiday.  And the religious part - well, the religion co-opted the traditions of other religions and pasted the birth of Jesus onto them.  That is the history.  Recounting the history isn't bashing.  Knowing facts isn't bashing.

It is very interesting that you equate knowledge with bashing.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.3  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @18.3.1    3 years ago
For some, not for everyone.   You recognize that, right?

Christmas has always been a religious holiday.  The religious beliefs, traditions, and celebrations have changed throughout history but the holiday as a time for religious celebration has never changed.

Are you claiming that secularism is a religion?  

Our nation is growing less Christian each year.   The holiday will either grow more inclusive or will be marginalized.   This is a force of nature, Nerm, nobody has to do anything for this to occur.

Our nation is growing less religious each year.  

Christians aren't demanding that everyone celebrate as they do.  But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

Secular atheism is not a religion.  And mass consumption to satisfy greed is not a religious practice.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.3.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3    3 years ago

You can call it a religious holiday, I call it another day of the year where I do all the cooking and cleaning up and pretend to make merry.

It only gets fun for me when somebody breaks out  Cards Against Humanity

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.3.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.3    3 years ago
But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

Who's stopping them?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.3    3 years ago

You can make the claim all you like, Nerm.  Others will recognize that the religion made up some things (date of Jesus's birth, for example), and co-opted some others (Christmas trees, for example).  It might always have been a religious celebration, but it wasn't always your religion's celebration.  Before that, it was a pagan celebration.

If no religion can claim sole ownership (and they can't), then nonbelievers can celebrate it, too.

And they can do so with as much or as little consumption as they like, as Christians always have.  I believe Christians also like to give gifts, yes?  Sometimes extravagant ones.

But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

Who's trying to change the date of Christmas?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.3.5    3 years ago
Who's stopping them?

Nobody.  Just more vague claims of persecution that isn't happening.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.8  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.2    3 years ago
It is now both a religious and secular holiday.  And the religious part - well, the religion co-opted the traditions of other religions and pasted the birth of Jesus onto them.  That is the history.  Recounting the history isn't bashing.  Knowing facts isn't bashing.

What is happening is a bashing of all religious celebration on the holy day.  The history is that the holiday has always been a time for religious celebration.

You may want to divert attention onto Christians but the 'War on Christmas' is a war on all religions.  Christmas is a time for pagan Yule, too.  And those pagan religious traditions, beliefs, and practices have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday.

Meeting under the mistletoe is a religious tradition.  Decking the halls with holly is a religious tradition.  The Yule tree is a religious tradition.  Those aren't Christian religious traditions yet they are part of the religious celebrations during the Christmas holiday.   

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.9  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.3.5    3 years ago
Who's stopping them?

Secular atheists who are claiming freedom from religion.  There is no freedom of religion during a holiday that has always been about religious celebration.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.10  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.8    3 years ago
What is happening is a bashing of all religious celebration on the holy day. 

You keep saying that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

"Bashing" would be heckling people marching in Christmas parades, or turning the water hose on Christmas carolers.  Boycotting "A Christmas Story" (a cardinal sin, in my book), or purposely ruining Christmas dinner.

Even just objecting to the celebration of Christmas could be construed as "bashing".

And nobody here is doing any of that.  It is ridiculous to claim that Christmas is being bashed.

Meeting under the mistletoe is a religious tradition.  Decking the halls with holly is a religious tradition.  The Yule tree is a religious tradition.  Those aren't Christian religious traditions yet they are part of the religious celebrations during the Christmas holiday. 

Of course they aren't Christian.  Which is why it is ridiculous when some Christians claim sole ownership of December 25th.  A lot of those traditions weren't theirs to start with, and they have no room to get in a snit when other people either point that out, or choose to indulge in those traditions without tacking on the mistaken traditions (Jesus's birthdate) of another religion.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.11  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.9    3 years ago
Secular atheists who are claiming freedom from religion.  There is no freedom of religion during a holiday that has always been about religious celebration.

Of course there is.  Unless you think it's ok for you to be forced to fast during Ramadan.  After all, that has always been a religious celebration, too.

Nobody drags me to Midnight Mass, and nobody forces you to fast during Ramadan.  Freedom from religion.

I mean, you do realize that them choosing not to celebrate (if they so choose) has no effect on you, right?  That their freedom from religion doesn't lock you out of your church on Christmas day?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.3.12  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.3    3 years ago
Christmas has always been a religious holiday. 

Not for everyone.

Are you claiming that secularism is a religion?  

A truly stupid question that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote.

But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

Sure, and they have every right to do so.

Secular atheism is not a religion. 

Correct.   Again, why do you make statements like this?   I have not suggested atheism is a religion so why bring in this strawman from thin air?    Hello?

And mass consumption to satisfy greed is not a religious practice.  

And yet again, who claims it is?    Strawman after strawman with you.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
18.3.13  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.3    3 years ago
Christians aren't demanding that everyone celebrate as they do.  But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

As far as I can tell, the religious and non religious generally celebrate the holiday in the same ways...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ender @18.3.13    3 years ago

I do everything except pray or go to church.

Tree, lights, gifts, carols, big dinner and my parents' house, Santa gifts for the little ones, Christmas movies (not those sappy Hallmark ones, thank you very much). 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.3.15  TᵢG  replied to  Ender @18.3.13    3 years ago

For much of it that is true.   I have lived among Christians my entire life and in my circle the most religious thing I see is going to church.   Other than the Midnight Mass, etc. the rest of the time is spent on decorations (albeit some religious), gifting, partying, etc.

One is living in a reality of their own choosing to believe that Christmas time, as a whole, is predominantly spent in religious consideration.   That ship sailed a long time ago.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
18.3.16  Ender  replied to  TᵢG @18.3.15    3 years ago

I have an Aunt and Uncle that are Mormons.

They don't celebrate Christmas or even birthdays.

So I guess I can say, some Christian people do not celebrate Christmas.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.17  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.6    3 years ago
You can make the claim all you like, Nerm.  Others will recognize that the religion made up some things (date of Jesus's birth, for example), and co-opted some others (Christmas trees, for example).  It might always have been a religious celebration, but it wasn't always your religion's celebration.  Before that, it was a pagan celebration.

Jesus' birth is the Christian specific celebration.  All the other religious traditions have been incorporated into the holiday to include them; not to exclude them.

A Christmas tree is not a Christian tradition.  That's a pagan religious tradition.  Christians have included (not excluded) that religious tradition.  Christians make a Yule tree a Christmas tree by placing a Christmas star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel on top but it's still a pagan religious tradition.

Lighting candles is not a Christian tradition.  Caroling is not a Christian tradition.  Feasting is not a Christian tradition.  Those religious traditions have been included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations.  Those traditions were not co-opted to be Christian traditions; they were included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations to welcome and include the religious traditions of many faiths and religious traditions.

If Christians wanted the holiday to be strictly a Christian holiday then those other religious traditions would be excluded.  But that is not what has happened.  Christians may not follow the rituals and practices of other faiths but Christians have incorporated parts of those traditions into their own celebrations to include them and not to exclude them.

Who's trying to change the date of Christmas?

That's an argle-bargle argument trying to change the subject.  I am Christian.  It is my religious tradition to greet people with 'Merry Christmas'.  That's not intended to offend; that's intended to practice my religion.  If you are offended by my saying 'Merry Christmas' then you are offended by my religion.  And if you tell me I should say 'Happy Holidays' then you are insulting my religion and my religious traditions.

I do not expect you to greet me with 'Merry Christmas'; especially if you are not a Christian.  But if you tell me I cannot practice my religion because you are offended then you are calling for Holy War - or - Jihad, if I understand the Muslim meaning.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.18  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @18.3.12    3 years ago
Not for everyone.

Yes, for everyone.  What we call Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration.  What we call Christmas has never, ever been a secular holiday throughout all of human history.

Rewriting history won't change that history.  What we call Christmas has always been a time of religious celebration for everyone.

Christmas is not and never has been a holiday for secular atheists.  Period.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.19  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.17    3 years ago
Jesus' birth is the Christian specific celebration.

Then maybe they should have chosen a day when he was born.  It wasn't in December.

All the other religious traditions have been incorporated into the holiday to include them; not to exclude them.

And they can choose not to be included.  Christianity doesn't get to take over their traditions and then claim exclusive ownership of them.

That's an argle-bargle argument trying to change the subject.

Of course it's not.  It's a direct response to

But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.

Nobody is stopping you from celebrating Christmas on December 25th.  But you likewise don't get to tell anybody else that they can't honor their own religious traditions, even if those traditions include those Christianity subsumed.  Pagans get to celebrate Yule, without a thought of Jesus.  Jews get to celebrate Hanukkah, without a thought of Jesus.

And if you tell me I should say 'Happy Holidays' then you are insulting my religion and my religious traditions.

Nobody is telling you that.  They're just saying you don't own winter.

But if you tell me I cannot practice my religion because you are offended t

And nobody has said that, either.  You're stirring up a fight because you're offended about something that only you have said.  

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
18.3.20  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.19    3 years ago
And they can choose not to be included.  Christianity doesn't get to take over their traditions and then claim exclusive ownership of them.

Or, perhaps, other religions could be as open minded as Christians.

Nobody is stopping you from celebrating Christmas on December 25th.  But you likewise don't get to tell anybody else that they can't honor their own religious traditions, even if those traditions include those Christianity subsumed.  Pagans get to celebrate Yule, without a thought of Jesus.  Jews get to celebrate Hanukkah, without a thought of Jesus.

As I stated before, secular atheists are attempting to stop all religious celebrations and turn Christmas into a secular holiday.

The Christian celebration is focused on the birth of Jesus.  Secular atheists are threatened by public displays of a plastic baby Jesus and are attempting to prohibit the public display of the only reason for the Christian celebration.

The White House hosts a number of different religious celebrations this time of year - except - display of the nativity.  The nativity is the one and only reason for Christian celebration of the holiday.  The nativity is the religious tradition that is being excluded from holiday celebrations. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
18.3.21  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.20    3 years ago
other religions could be as open minded as Christians.

Since when are some christians open minded?

secular atheists are attempting to stop all religious celebrations and turn Christmas into a secular holiday.

No worries then since they're not doing that.

The Christian celebration is focused on the birth of Jesus. 

For christians maybe. But not for everyone.

Secular atheists are threatened by public displays of a plastic baby Jesus and are attempting to prohibit the public display of the only reason for the Christian celebration.

Wrong. They simply want to make sure everyone gets equal time in the spotlight in the public.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.22  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.20    3 years ago
As I stated before, secular atheists are attempting to stop all religious celebrations and turn Christmas into a secular holiday.

This is not true, Nerm.  Nobody is trying to stop you from having a religious celebration.

Perhaps you can be open-minded enough to allow atheists to have a secular celebration embracing the traditions Christianity co-opted from other religions without deciding that it's "bashing".  The way I celebrate doesn't need to affect your celebration at all.

The Establishment Clause prevents you from putting your nativity on the courthouse lawn, but has no problem with you having one on your own front lawn or that of your church.  If you want nativities on public land, you get Baphomets on public land.  Are you open-minded enough to fund a Baphomet display, Nerm?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.23  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.19    3 years ago
Then maybe they should have chosen a day when he was born.  It wasn't in December.

If you aren't a Christian, why does the date carry so much importance for you?

What other religions celebrate December 25th every year?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.24  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.23    3 years ago

It seems to me that it should matter to those who worship him.  I'd think they'd want to get the date right.

It doesn't matter that much to me personally.  But it's amusing that early church leaders chose that date because it coincided or approximated the dates of the rituals of other religions.  They basically stole a date, and their later followers are pissed that others are not just going along with the theft.

The other religions were those of agrarian societies, which tend to worship the sun.  Winter solstice is an important day in many sun-worshipping religions.  Sol Invictus, in particular, was celebrated on December 25th, and the officially recognized cult worshipping him competed with Christianity.

n the traditional view , Sol Invictus was the second of two entirely different sun gods in Rome. The first of these, Sol Indiges , or Sol , was an early Roman deity of minor importance whose cult had petered out by the first century AD. Sol Invictus , on the other hand, was a Syrian sun god, whose cult was first promoted in Rome under Elagabalus , without success. Some fifty years later, on 25 December AD 274, the Roman emperor Aurelian did succeed to establish the cult of Sol Invictus as an official religion , alongside the traditional Roman cults. Although the Syrian origin of Sol Invictus is undisputed in the traditional view, there has never been consensus on which Syrian solar deity he was: Some scholars opt for the sky god of Emesa, Elagabalus , [3] while others prefer Malakbel of Palmyra. [4] [5] There was general agreement that, from Aurelian to Constantine I , Sol was of supreme importance, until Constantine abandoned Sol in favor of Christianity. [a] The last inscription referring to Sol Invictus dates to AD 387, [6] and there were enough devotees in the fifth century that the Christian theologian Augustine found it necessary to preach against them. [7]

There was also Saturnalia, held from December 17th to the 23rd.  Its traditions were imitated in Twelfth Night celebrations.

Role reversal [ edit ]

Saturnalia was characterized by role reversals and behavioral license. [5]   Slaves were treated to a banquet of the kind usually enjoyed by their masters. [5]   Ancient sources differ on the circumstances: some suggest that master and slave dined together, [44]   while others indicate that the slaves feasted first, or that the masters actually served the food. The practice might have varied over time. [7]

Saturnalian license also permitted slaves to disrespect their masters without the threat of a punishment. It was a time for   free speech : the   Augustan   poet   Horace   calls it "December liberty". [45]   In two   satires   set during the Saturnalia, Horace has a slave offer sharp criticism to his master. [46]   Everyone knew, however, that the leveling of the   social hierarchy   was temporary and had limits; no social norms were ultimately threatened, because the holiday would end. [47]

...

As a result of the close proximity of dates, many Christians in western Europe continued to celebrate traditional Saturnalia customs in association with Christmas and the surrounding holidays. [105] [111] [14]  Like Saturnalia, Christmas during the  Middle Ages  was a time of ruckus, drinking, gambling, and overeating. [14]  The tradition of the  Saturnalicius princeps  was particularly influential. [111] [14]  In medieval France and Switzerland, a boy would be elected " bishop for a day " on 28 December (the  Feast of the Holy Innocents ) [111] [14]  and would issue decrees much like the  Saturnalicius princeps . [111] [14]  The boy bishop's tenure ended during the evening  vespers . [112]  This custom was common across western Europe, but varied considerably by region; [112]  in some places, the boy bishop's orders could become quite rowdy and unrestrained, [112]  but, in others, his power was only ceremonial. [112]  In some parts of France, during the boy bishop's tenure, the actual clergy would wear masks or dress in women's clothing, a reversal of roles in line with the traditional character of Saturnalia. [14]

During the late medieval period and early Renaissance , many towns in England elected a " Lord of Misrule " at Christmas time to preside over the Feast of Fools . [111] [14] This custom was sometimes associated with the Twelfth Night or Epiphany . [113] A common tradition in western Europe was to drop a bean, coin, or other small token into a cake or pudding ; [111] whoever found the object would become the "King (or Queen) of the Bean". [111] During the Protestant Reformation , reformers sought to revise or even completely abolish such practices, which they regarded as " popish "; [14] these efforts were largely successful and, in many places, these customs died out completely. [14] [114] The Puritans banned the "Lord of Misrule" in England [114] and the custom was largely forgotten shortly thereafter, though the bean in the pudding survived as a tradition of a small gift to the one finding a single almond hidden in the traditional Christmas porridge in Scandinavia. [114] [115]

Some people still consider it traditional to put coins in cakes or Christmas puddings.  My mother always put a silver dollar in cooked cabbage on New Year's Day for luck.

So a lot of those "Christian" traditions weren't really Christian at all.  They were pagan.  Now, I doubt most pagans really object to Christians having Christmas trees or putting coins in their food, but some  do  object to self-righteousness about stolen traditions ("It's a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree!") or a party atmosphere.  Those traditions involved a good party, and if you (generic "you", of course) steal a tradition, you don't get to whitewash it and insist that others abide by your whitewashed version.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.25  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.24    3 years ago
It seems to me that it should matter to those who worship him.  I'd think they'd want to get the date right.

Shouldn't be any concern for anyone not a Christian.

It doesn't matter that much to me personally.  But it's amusing that early church leaders chose that date because it coincided or approximated the dates of the rituals of other religions.  They basically stole a date, and their later followers are pissed that others are not just going along with the theft.

Seems to matter to you, as you keep talking about it. The date is still the date, and any religion can choose to use that date for anything they want. In Christianity, it is the date we celebrate the birth of Christ. Now, if other religions celebrate something other than the birth of Christ on that date, then they are celebrating something OTHER than Christmas. Pissed off? Get real.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.26  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.25    3 years ago
Shouldn't be any concern for anyone not a Christian.

It wouldn't be, if some Christians weren't so insistent that only their views be honored.

Now, if other religions celebrate something other than the birth of Christ on that date, then they are celebrating something OTHER than Christmas.

Of course they are.  But if you have a Christmas tree, you're not celebrating the birth of Christ with it.  You're celebrating Yule, which is dedicated to Odin.  You should know what you're celebrating, if you're going to be so vocal in your criticism of others' celebrations.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.27  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.26    3 years ago
It wouldn't be, if some Christians weren't so insistent that only their views be honored.

Wait--aren't you arguing the same thing--that you want others' views "honored"???? I have seen no one here arguing that only their views be followed.

Of course they are.  But if you have a Christmas tree, you're not celebrating the birth of Christ with it.  You're celebrating Yule, which is dedicated to Odin.  You should know what you're celebrating, if you're going to be so vocal in your criticism of others' celebrations.

Look, I know what Christmas celebrates, and so do you. It celebrates the birth of Christ. Spin it however you want, but that is simply the unvarnished truth of the matter.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.28  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.26    3 years ago
f you're going to be so vocal in your criticism of others' celebrations.

I am not criticizing what others celebrate, just pointing out what Christmas is. Let's get THAT straight.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.29  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.27    3 years ago
I have seen no one here arguing that only their views be followed.

Some do every year with the "war on Christmas" myth, and the insistence on "Merry Christmas" over "Happy Holidays" - I posted a link somewhere on this page about who gets offended over what, and I'm betting there aren't many pagans in the "don't tell me to have a Happy Holiday" crowd.  Some are ticked that school holidays are called "winter vacation".  They want it to be called "Christmas break".

Yes, I know what Christmas celebrates.  And decorated trees aren't celebrating Christmas.  Those who insist on strictly Christian celebrations of Christmas should do as the Puritans did, and eschew decorated trees for Christmas.  But some seem to want it both ways.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.32  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.3.30    3 years ago

I'm aware that those who want only their views honored would be fine with that.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.33  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.3.31    3 years ago

Using non-Christian traditions.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
18.3.34  al Jizzerror  replied to  Nerm_L @18.3.9    3 years ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.36  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.3.35    3 years ago

Nope, historical fact.  Unless you can point us all to the Bible verses specifying decorated trees, mistletoe, holly, etc.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.3.37  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.3.10    3 years ago

We don’t celebrate Christmas on December 21

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.38  sandy-2021492  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.3.37    3 years ago

You know that many of those holidays approximated the winter solstice (which, BTW, isn't always December 21st), yes?

Also, winter solstice fell on December 25th on the Julian calendar.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.3.39  XXJefferson51  replied to  Kathleen @18.3.35    3 years ago

Never good enough.  It’s like a doctrine of the militant secular progressive religion to impose itself upon others and talk down to those of lesser faiths than theirs.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.3.41  sandy-2021492  replied to  Kathleen @18.3.40    3 years ago

Quite a few people have trouble with it being called "Winter Break".  They, in ever-so-Christlike a tone, call the people who recognize other holidays "snowflakes" and tell them to "get over it; this is a Christian nation."

We see it happening.  And then laugh at the whole "Christians are marginalized" bullshit.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.3.42  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.3.39    3 years ago
 It’s like a doctrine of the militant secular progressive religion to impose itself upon others and talk down to those of lesser faiths than theirs.  

What a fear-ridden, distorted reality you describe.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.4  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18    3 years ago

The war on Christmas by the secular progressives is real and their denial of the war they are waging against it and thanksgiving and Easter only make their war all the more obvious to those of us defending the Reason for the Season and the traditions around them.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.4.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4    3 years ago

Pretty much thoroughly debunked all over this discussion.  You're making false accusations.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
18.4.2  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4    3 years ago
The war on Christmas by the secular progressives is real

Only in your mind.

their denial of the war they are waging against it and thanksgiving and Easter only make their war all the more obvious to those of us defending the Reason for the Season and the traditions around them.  

Such paranoid delusions.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
18.4.3  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4    3 years ago

jrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gif  

It is pathetic watching this melodramatic exclamation of oppression in a nation that is 65% Christian.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
18.4.4  XXJefferson51  replied to  sandy-2021492 @18.4.1    3 years ago

No.  I’m telling the truth about the religious nature of certain Holy Days.  And of how militant secularists are waging all out war on those days.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
18.4.5  Kavika   replied to  TᵢG @18.4.3    3 years ago

Whiners have to whine, it's the only thing besides lying that makes them happy in their limited universe.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
18.4.6  Kavika   replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4.4    3 years ago

512

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
18.4.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4.4    3 years ago

"Militant secularists" jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
18.4.8  al Jizzerror  replied to  XXJefferson51 @18.4    3 years ago
The war on Christmas by the secular progressives is real

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
19  al Jizzerror    3 years ago

512

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
19.1  Sparty On  replied to  al Jizzerror @19    3 years ago

He got off bail free ...... too small of a package i hear ....

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
19.1.2  JaneDoe  replied to  Sparty On @19.1    3 years ago
He got off bail free

out by nightfall to jingle his balls again, oops I mean bells 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
19.1.3  MrFrost  replied to  Sparty On @19.1    3 years ago

He got off bail free ...... too small of a package i hear ....

Ok, that was funny... 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20  Texan1211    3 years ago

Why would anyone be offended by the words "Merry Christmas" even if they don't believe in Christmas?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20    3 years ago

I think it is because it excludes them.   I can certainly see how a Jewish person would grow tired of Merry Christmas and all the religious songs, banners, images, etc. regarding the birth of Jesus.   Same holds true for all the others who do not believe in the claims of Christianity.

Personally, I am not offended because I am very much used to living in a Christian dominated society.   There are bigger concerns ...

Besides, I like Christmas.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.2.1  Ender  replied to  TᵢG @20.2    3 years ago
Besides, I like Christmas

I like the lights.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  Ender @20.2.1    3 years ago

I like the spirit ... the gathering of family ... generally a good thing.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.2.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ender @20.2.1    3 years ago

Me, too.  I get a little seasonal affective disorder in winter.  It's dark when I leave for work in the morning, and dark before I get home, at least approaching solstice.  The lights cheer me up a bit.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Texan1211 @20    3 years ago

Because it is ignoring the other faiths' holidays, which is inconsiderate. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3    3 years ago

Happy Hanukah, Perrie!

please tell me I spelled that correctly

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.1    3 years ago

Thanks, Trout...

And no worries about the spelling. Besides the issue that Hanukah coming too late or too early, there is about a dozen ways to spell it... and besides, I'm dyslexic so it all looks the same to me, LOL.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.3  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3    3 years ago

I guess I am kind of a Grinch.

I don't say anything to anybody, except hello and a nod.

I never say 'Happy Christmas' or whatever to anybody.

If they say it to me I usually end up saying something like, you too....

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.4  TᵢG  replied to  Ender @20.3.3    3 years ago

16-9

Maybe just a tiny bit of Grinchiness, but certainly nothing like the 'real' thing.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.2    3 years ago

This is weird...I'm looking at my wall calendar and it tells me when Kwanzaa begins but not Hanukah and Eid-Al (?), a Muslim holiday celebrated near Christmas and or am I just talking out of my ass because I don't know a blessed thing about Islam?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.5    3 years ago

Hanukkah was unusually early this year.  It has come and gone.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.6    3 years ago

Figures. How is the holiday determined every year. I know why Easter falls on different Sundays

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.8  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.7    3 years ago

I'm not sure.  The Hebrew calendar is a bit different from the Gregorian.  This year, it started November 28th at sunset and ended at sunset on December 6th.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.8    3 years ago

Thanks for the info

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.10  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.7    3 years ago

Mardi Gras changes with lent...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.11  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.8    3 years ago

There is a 13th month that shows up ...and wait for this..seven times every nineteen years! I honestly don't expect anyone to remember that. But normally it is very close to Christmas. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.12  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.11    3 years ago

Is that like the elusive leap year? I had a friend that was born on leap year.

I don't think I ever heard of the 13th month.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.13  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.11    3 years ago

Wow, and I have trouble keeping up with Leap Year.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.14  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3    3 years ago
Because it is ignoring the other faiths' holidays, which is inconsiderate. 

But the traditions of many faiths have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday.  Most of the trappings of the holiday are not Christian traditions.

Lighting candles is not a Christian tradition but has been incorporated into the holiday celebration.  That's not an appropriation, that's intended to welcome and include that religious tradition into the holiday celebrations.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.15  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.14    3 years ago
Most of the trappings of the holiday are not Christian traditions.

Correct.   So maybe that trend should continue and Christmas should grow even more inclusive.   What stops that from happening, I suspect, are people claiming that Christmas is exclusively a religious holiday:

Nerm @18.3Christmas is a religious holiday.

Maybe Christmas is just a holiday.   Times change.   Societies evolve.  

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.16  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.14    3 years ago
But the traditions of many faiths have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday.  Most of the trappings of the holiday are not Christian traditions.

No Nerm. Christmas incorporated pagan traditions into its traditions to make it more appealing to pagan converts. There are no Jewish traditions involved with Christmas, which is kind of ironic since Jesus was born a Jew, died a Jew, and celebrated Hanukkah. 

Lighting candles is a part of many traditions. But the celebration of Christmas, is the celebration of Jesus being born, while the celebration of Hanukkah is the celebration of the Jewish people fighting back against the Greek/ Assyrians, and the miracle of 1 days oil lasting 8 days in the lamp of the eternal light, which represents god everlasting being. 

These holidays are not equivalent, share nothing in common, and without Judaism, you would not have Christmas, since that is where Jesus came from. I see no reason to not respect Jews.  

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.17  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.15    3 years ago

Tig,

I see the bumper stickers that say "Keep Christ in Christmas", which solidifies the desire to keep it a religious holiday. I have no problem with that. Just don't disrespect me and blow off my holiday.

For those who want to do a secular Christmas or Hanukkah, fine, but let's not pretend the roots are not religious.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.18  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.15    3 years ago

Christmas is a religious holiday. For those who aren't Christians, it is just a day.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Guide
20.3.19  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.16    3 years ago
I see no reason to not respect Jews.  

Or Hanukkah, 100% agreement... the two holidays are not mutually exclusive, they represent the same thing (God is supreme in everything) but are based on completely different historical perspectives...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.20  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.17    3 years ago
let's not pretend the roots are not religious.

They may well be religious, but they are not necessarily Christian.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.21  TᵢG  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.17    3 years ago
... but let's not pretend the roots are not religious.

Is someone pretending that the roots are not religious?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.22  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.18    3 years ago
Christmas is a religious holiday. For those who aren't Christians, it is just a day.

Not true, for those who are not Christians (and even for many Christians) it is a holiday season with all sorts of traditions that people enjoy.   It is not "just a day".

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.23  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.22    3 years ago

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. If you don't believe He is the Son of God, then there is nothing for you to celebrate on Christmas

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.24  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.20    3 years ago
They may well be religious, but they are not necessarily Christian.

Well, yes, since the holiday incorporated pagan traditions.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Guide
20.3.25  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.11    3 years ago
There is a 13th month that shows up ...and wait for this.. seven times every nineteen years!  I honestly don't expect anyone to remember that. But normally it is very close to Christmas. 

The Jewish Month of Adar I ...

Just in case anyone is interested...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.26  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.21    3 years ago

I know you were not. It was just a manner of speech. 

It was more directed to Christmas becoming secular in nature.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.27  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nowhere Man @20.3.25    3 years ago

Such a pesty month, LOL.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Guide
20.3.28  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.24    3 years ago

Well, yes, since the holiday incorporated pagan traditions.

Very true, and the modern pagan tradition has the holiday running from the day after the last Thursday in November to January 1st  each year... and is celebrated by spending as much money as one can afford... (while paying lip service to traditions) the commercial version runs from November first, each year.... which is come to be the "Normal" holiday

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.29  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.23    3 years ago

Sorry, Texan, but that is not how people operate.   Get used to it because most of the time spent celebrating Christmas is truly not religious.   And irreligious people celebrate the Christmas holiday.  

I recommend you not worry about it;  there is nothing you can do about it and the trend, I predict, is that Christmas will continually be less of a Christian holiday over time.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.30  Trout Giggles  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.11    3 years ago

How do you keep track of that?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.31  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.24    3 years ago

Exactly.  Unfortunately, it seems that some wanted it to be a "no takebacks" sort of appropriation.  Non-Christians are no longer allowed to celebrate according to their traditions, if those traditions were co-opted by Christianity.  If they do so, they are "bashing".

Thank goodness most Christians have more sense.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.32  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.29    3 years ago
Sorry, Texan, but that is not how people operate.   Get used to it because most of the time spent celebrating Christmas is truly not religious.

Just because non-religious things occur on Christmas has nothing to do with it being the religious celebration of the birth of Christ. Pretending it isn't  religious holiday is silliness.

And irreligious people celebrate the Christmas holiday. 

For people having no religion, that is simply a load of crap. Since they don't believe in Christ, it is another day to them.

I recommend you not worry about it;  there is nothing you can do about it and the trend, I predict, is that Christmas will continually be less of a Christian holiday over time.

If and when hell freezes over will be when I seek your recommendations on anything at all.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.33  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.32    3 years ago
Pretending it isn't  religious holiday is silliness.

It is a religious holiday for most (or at least many), but not for everyone.   Get used to it.

For people having no religion, that is simply a load of crap.

Again, get used to it.  Irreligious people will continue to celebrate Christmas as they see fit.   Christmas is not strictly a religious holiday and it grows less with time;  take off your blinders.

If and when hell freezes over will be when I seek your recommendations on anything at all.

Childish.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.34  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.33    3 years ago
It is a religious holiday for most (or at least many), but not for everyone.

It is a religious holiday for Christians. If people aren't Christians, it isn't even a holiday.

Get used to it.

I am used to people knowing that Christmas is a religious holiday and not arguing about it.

Irreligious people will continue to celebrate Christmas as they see fit.

Then they really aren't celebrating Christmas at all, are they?

Christmas is not strictly a religious holiday and it grows less with time;  take off your blinders.

Yes, it is strictly a religious holiday. That is the whole part you choose to ignore.

No blinders, I know what Christmas is and don't pretend otherwise.

Childish.

Perhaps, but communicating at the same level is necessary at times. This was one of them.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.35  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.34    3 years ago
If people aren't Christians, it isn't even a holiday.

So some people from a church are going to come to my house, steal my tree, make me go to work, and pitch all my presents in a dumpster?

They can try.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.36  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.34    3 years ago
It is a religious holiday for Christians. If people aren't Christians, it isn't even a holiday.

Sorry, you will not be able to get your way.   That ship has sailed.

Yes, it is strictly a religious holiday. That is the whole part you choose to ignore.

I am not ignoring, I am directly commenting on it.   Hello?    You want to explain the religious significance of Santa Claus and all the related stories and myths?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.37  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.16    3 years ago
No Nerm. Christmas incorporated pagan traditions into its traditions to make it more appealing to pagan converts. There are no Jewish traditions involved with Christmas, which is kind of ironic since Jesus was born a Jew, died a Jew, and celebrated Hanukkah. 

How is that not inclusive?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.38  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.35    3 years ago

Does this mean I can't celebrate Xmas anymore?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.39  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.37    3 years ago

It can be inclusive, but not when some folks get offended by knowing those traditions were appropriated, and choose to celebrate without adding in a mistaken birthday.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.40  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.38    3 years ago

You come celebrate it with me.  We'll eat, drink, watch A Christmas Story, skip church, refuse to say grace over our turkey, and take a drive to look at the lights.

And dare anybody to have a problem with it.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.41  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.20    3 years ago
They may well be religious, but they are not necessarily Christian.

Exactly so.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.42  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.40    3 years ago

Sounds like fun...but I have to a Christmas Vacation in there along with A Christmas Story

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
20.3.43  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.42    3 years ago

Christmas Vacation (ad nauseum), It's a Wonderful Life, A Christmas Story.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.44  Trout Giggles  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @20.3.43    3 years ago

It's my favorite Xmas movie...don't make fun

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.45  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.42    3 years ago

Absolutely.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.46  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.41    3 years ago

And some would rather celebrate their own religion, without the Christian add-ons.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.47  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.23    3 years ago
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. If you don't believe He is the Son of God, then there is nothing for you to celebrate on Christmas

That is the Christian celebration.  And the English tradition of Christ Mass (Old English name Crīstes mæsse) has been overlaid onto the holiday.  But this time of year has always been a time of religious celebration; even before Christianity. 

So, the Christmas holiday is not exclusively Christian and is not exclusively for celebrating the birth of Jesus.  But Christmas, as we call it, has always been a time of religious celebration.  And even the Christian celebration has included a wide range of traditions that originated with the practices of other religions.  That was intended to be inclusive and not exclusive.

Christians celebrate during the historical time for religious celebration alongside other religions.  And Christians have included traditions from other religions into their celebrations to be welcoming and inclusive.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
20.3.48  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.44    3 years ago

Mine too. Not making fun. I watch it multiple times every year. Sometimes even in the warm months if I get bored. Hell I've watched it twice since Thanksgiving.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.49  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @20.3.44    3 years ago

Gremlins....

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.50  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @20.3.49    3 years ago

That's a good one, too

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.51  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.39    3 years ago
It can be inclusive, but not when some folks get offended by knowing those traditions were appropriated, and choose to celebrate without adding in a mistaken birthday.

They weren't appropriated.  They were adopted and included.  After a religious tradition has been included in the Christian celebration, Christians don't demand other religions stop those practices.  

There's a difference between appropriation and inclusion.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.52  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.51    3 years ago

So, Christians still pray to Oestre in the spring?

No, Nerm, they were appropriated.  The Christian church wanted the members, and to get those, they adopted the rituals, but they didn't want the gods and goddesses those rituals honored.  If it were "adoption", they'd have welcomed other deities.  Obviously, they couldn't do that.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.53  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.16    3 years ago
No Nerm. Christmas incorporated pagan traditions into its traditions to make it more appealing to pagan converts. There are no Jewish traditions involved with Christmas, which is kind of ironic since Jesus was born a Jew, died a Jew, and celebrated Hanukkah. 

The modern secular imperative has become diversity and inclusion.  What does that mean?  How is inclusion supposed to work?

You've stated that Christmas incorporated pagan traditions.  That's incorrect.  Those pagan traditions were religious celebrations during this time of year before there were Christians.  Jewish religious celebrations during this time of year preceded the birth of Jesus.  Christians added their celebration to the mix.

The Christian church is responsible for setting December 25th as the day to celebrate the birth of Jesus.  But the holiday season encompasses more than one day.  Maybe the holiday season has been called the Christmas season because Christians were inclusive.  Maybe Christians were celebrating diversity and inclusion before there was anything like a secular society.  Why was incorporating older religious traditions into Christian celebration a bad thing?

Lighting candles is a part of many traditions. But the celebration of Christmas, is the celebration of Jesus being born, while the celebration of Hanukkah is the celebration of the Jewish people fighting back against the Greek/ Assyrians, and the miracle of 1 days oil lasting 8 days in the lamp of the eternal light, which represents god everlasting being. 

Lighting candles is a part of religious tradition.  Secular atheists light candles for the light; nothing more.  This time of year, throughout history, has been a time of celebrating miracles.  The solstice, itself, is miraculous.  At a time when lives were short and death common, surviving another year was a miracle.  We should not allow ourselves to diminish and forget the importance of religious traditions this time of year.  We really do need to celebrate miracles.

These holidays are not equivalent, share nothing in common, and without Judaism, you would not have Christmas, since that is where Jesus came from. I see no reason to not respect Jews.  

Who claims the different religious celebrations are equivalent?  Who says only one religious tradition should be celebrated this time of year?

Christians do not practice Judaism.  But Christians have incorporated bits and pieces of Judaism into Christian practices as recognition of that religious heritage.  Christians have not excluded the Jews; Jews have excluded themselves from Christianity.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.54  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.53    3 years ago
You've stated that Christmas incorporated pagan traditions.  That's incorrect.  Those pagan traditions were religious celebrations during this time of year before there were Christians.  Jewish religious celebrations during this time of year preceded the birth of Jesus.  Christians added their celebration to the mix.

Yes the pagan traditions and Jewish celebrations predated Christians.   These were incorporated into Christmas.   What is the problem you see?   New  traditions, celebrations and beliefs often incorporated older traditions, celebrations and beliefs.   You even state this in your last sentence.  What meaning do you have for the verb ' incorporate':   " Take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include ".

And then at the end you contradict your quoted sentences:

Christians do not practice Judaism.  But Christians have incorporated bits and pieces of Judaism into Christian practices as recognition of that religious heritage. 

tagquestion-300x223.png

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
20.3.55  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.53    3 years ago
You've stated that Christmas incorporated pagan traditions.  That's incorrect.  Those pagan traditions were religious celebrations during this time of year before there were Christians.  Jewish religious celebrations during this time of year preceded the birth of Jesus.  Christians added their celebration to the mix.

You are saying the same thing that I am, but start if off by saying I am wrong. I will correct you on one thing. Christians did not incorporate Jewish traditions, only pagan ones. 

Maybe the holiday season has been called the Christmas season because Christians were inclusive.  Maybe Christians were celebrating diversity and inclusion before there was anything like a secular society.  Why was incorporating older religious traditions into Christian celebration a bad thing?

Christmas is a lovely holiday, but it is a religious one celebrating the birth of Christ. This has nothing to do with Hanukkah. Jews don't want to take away Christmas, but they do want to be recognized, and hence why if you don't know what someone is, Happy Holidays is appropriate. If you do know what someone is, wish them the appropriate holiday. It's just a matter of consideration.

Christians do not practice Judaism.  But Christians have incorporated bits and pieces of Judaism into Christian practices as recognition of that religious heritage.  Christians have not excluded the Jews; Jews have excluded themselves from Christianity.

And herein lies the whole problem. Why do Jews have to be Christians? Why can't they be what they are? And given that they are a separate religion, why is it so hard to respect those traditions. 

And may I remind you, that Christmas has nothing to do with Hanukkah. It has nothing to do with the events that are celebrated during that holiday, so therefore, Christmas can't be inclusive to them.

Nerm, I have taken the time to explain this because I don't believe you mean to contrary. I don't know if you live in an area where you would be exposed to, too many Jews, so you might not get this but where I live, we respect each other, and so we handle this issue the way I described above.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.56  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.53    3 years ago
The modern secular imperative has become diversity and inclusion.  What does that mean?  How is inclusion supposed to work?

Including the rituals while denying, and sometimes even punishing, the beliefs behind those rituals isn't inclusion, Nerm.

"We want to welcome you, and that decorated tree is very pretty.  Bring your tree, but your gods have to stay behind and you have to recognize ours" isn't really all that inclusive.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.57  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.35    3 years ago
So some people from a church are going to come to my house, steal my tree, make me go to work, and pitch all my presents in a dumpster? They can try.

it is silly at BEST to say Christmas is not a religious holiday.

Think about it--what does Christmas signify?

Does it signify anything to Jews? Muslims? Buddhists? Atheists?

Now, you m ay very well enjoy doing what you have seen others do on Christmas if you aren't a Christian, but that sure doesn't mean you are celebrating Christmas.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.58  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.36    3 years ago
Sorry, you will not be able to get your way.   That ship has sailed

You are always free to "celebrate" whatever it is you want on December 25th, but if you aren't a Christian, you aren't celebrating Christmas.  I won't pretend such bullshit, however.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.59  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.58    3 years ago
but if you aren't a Christian, you aren't celebrating Christmas.  I won't pretend such bullshit, however.

Well that's BS! If it's not my birthday but I go to a birthday party, am I celebrating a birthday?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.60  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @20.3.59    3 years ago

if you were going for obtuseness, congrats, really nailed it!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.61  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.58    3 years ago
... but if you aren't a Christian, you aren't celebrating Christmas. 

Don't get all worked up about it Texan, we all have the freedom to celebrate Christmas how we wish.   You can spend your entire day on the 25th praying, worshiping, etc. and that is fine with me.   But others who wish to celebrate Christmas with family, gifts, decorations, meals, etc. are going to do so regardless of your approval.

Christmas is a religious holiday but it grows less and less so as time passes.   And I suspect this trend will continue.   So some of us will enjoy the Santa Claus dimension, the wreaths, candy canes, lights, presents, etc. even though we do not buy the religious storyline.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.62  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.60    3 years ago

And you really don't get it!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.63  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.61    3 years ago
we all have the freedom to celebrate Christmas how we wish. 

Yes, but apparently, if we don't celebrate it the way he thinks we should, we're not really celebrating. jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.64  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.57    3 years ago
it is silly at BEST to say Christmas is not a religious holiday.

Where does Sandy state that Christmas is not a religious holiday?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.65  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.61    3 years ago
You can spend your entire day on the 25th praying, worshiping, etc. and that is fine with me.

Wasn't asking your permission.

But others who wish to celebrate Christmas with family, gifts, decorations, meals, etc. are going to do so regardless of your approval.

Wasn't ever a question of my approval, spectacular way to miss the entire point.

If you aren't Christian, what exactly are you celebrating that has to do with the birth of Christ? Please be specific in relating your celebration to the birth of Christ.

Christmas is a religious holiday 

That has been one of my points the entire time. Glad we can dispense yapping about THAT at least now that we acknowledge that it IS a religious holiday!

but it grows less and less so as time passes.   And I suspect this trend will continue.

Which has zero to do with the meaning of Christmas and what it signifies.  

So some of us will enjoy the Santa Claus dimension, the wreaths, candy canes, lights, presents, etc. even though we do not buy the religious storyline.

Without Christ, there is no Christmas. This isn't really all that difficult,.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.66  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @20.3.62    3 years ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.67  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @20.3.63    3 years ago
Yes, but apparently, if we don't celebrate it the way he thinks we should, we're not really celebrating.

Apparently you have chosen to misunderstand what I have written.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.68  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.57    3 years ago

I'm having my Christmas tree, my Christmas turkey, my gifts, and my Christmas movies.  It really doesn't matter to me how you view that.  It doesn't affect you, and your views on it have no effect on me or others.

Also, I never said it wasn't religious.  But most of the traditions don't come from the Christian religion, and the ones that do were just sort of assigned by decree to the date, and glommed onto the stuff I like.  The feasts, tree, gift-giving, etc. - they all predated that decree.  So, in a way, I'm celebrating several religions.  Just not yours.  Sorry, not sorry.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.69  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.65    3 years ago
If you aren't Christian, what exactly are you celebrating that has to do with the birth of Christ?

Nothing.   Buy a vowel, I explained this to you.   You are so damned busy typing your simplistic, predictable "not asking permission" cliche bullshit replies that you do not appear to have time to carefully read my reply.

Without Christ, there is no Christmas.

Too bad for you then Texan because you do not get to dictate how everyone perceives and celebrates Christmas.    Get used to it.

Glad we can dispense yapping about THAT at least now that we acknowledge that it IS a religious holiday!

I, et. al. have been stating it is a religious holiday at its core the entire seed.   Pay attention.

Your problem is that you have your panties in a bunch because others celebrate Christmas for the factors beyond its religious core.   Don't get so worked up over it, there is not a damn thing you can do to change this trend.    Go ahead an fight a war against Santa Claus and all the other dimensions of Christmas that have emerged over the millennia; you will be wasting your time.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.70  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.69    3 years ago
Nothing.  

So you aren't celebrating Christmas, as I have maintained all along.

Buy a vowel, I explained this to you.   You are so damned busy typing your simplistic, predictable "not asking permission" cliche bullshit replies that you do not appear to have time to carefully read my reply.

[deleted]

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.72  al Jizzerror  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3    3 years ago

Happy Hannukah Perrie (and happy Hannukah to all of my Jewish friends).

And happy Festivus to George.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.73  sandy-2021492  replied to  al Jizzerror @20.3.72    3 years ago
And happy Festivus to George.

To all of us, it seems.  This must be the Airing of the Grievances.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.74  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3.55    3 years ago
You are saying the same thing that I am, but start if off by saying I am wrong. I will correct you on one thing. Christians did not incorporate Jewish traditions, only pagan ones. 

Yes, that's the dictionary argument.  I should have said Christians included parts of those older religious traditions into their celebration.  So, yes, you got me: I used the wrong language.  The dictionary wins again.

Why would Christians including parts of those older religious traditions into their celebrations be a bad thing?  The claim was that Christians included those traditions to be more appealing to pagan converts.  That frames the message as a competition between Christianity and other religions.  How is inclusion supposed to work?  Pagans converted to Christianity and brought those older religious traditions with them.  Christians allowed people to bring traditions that were important to them into the Christian celebration.  

The Christian celebration adapted to be inclusive.  Pagan converts could still practice pagan traditions; they weren't excluded.  Those converting to Christianity can bring their traditions into Christian celebrations.  Jewish converts can still practice Jewish traditions as part of Christian celebrations.  The Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus but that doesn't preclude other traditions as part of the celebration.  If worshippers of Baphomet convert to Christianity and want to top a Yule tree with Baphomet to celebrate the birth of Jesus, that is acceptable.  What would be unacceptable is replacing Jesus with Baphomet.

Christmas is a lovely holiday, but it is a religious one celebrating the birth of Christ. This has nothing to do with Hanukkah. Jews don't want to take away Christmas, but they do want to be recognized, and hence why if you don't know what someone is, Happy Holidays is appropriate. If you do know what someone is, wish them the appropriate holiday. It's just a matter of consideration.

That is the Christian celebration of Christmas.  Obviously the Christian celebration is not the Hanukkah celebration.  Christians will greet with 'Merry Christmas' because that is part of the Christian celebration.

You've indicated that a greeting of 'Happy Holidays' is appropriate.  Why not 'Happy Hanukkah'?  A greeting of 'Happy Holidays' is a perfectly secular greeting that removes religious celebration from the season.  'Happy Hanukkah' would be as inappropriate as 'Merry Christmas'.  Isn't that a practice of exclusion rather than inclusion?  Is inclusion supposed to be based upon exclusion?

If we cannot share our traditions then what does inclusion mean?  How is inclusion supposed to work?

And herein lies the whole problem. Why do Jews have to be Christians? Why can't they be what they are? And given that they are a separate religion, why is it so hard to respect those traditions. 

Jews don't have to be Christians.  The point is that if a Jew chooses to convert to Christianity, they are not required to give up their traditions.  Christianity adapts to traditions brought into Christianity.  Inclusion respects those traditions.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.75  al Jizzerror  replied to  Ender @20.3.3    3 years ago

512

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.76  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.68    3 years ago
Also, I never said it wasn't religious.  But most of the traditions don't come from the Christian religion, and the ones that do were just sort of assigned by decree to the date, and glommed onto the stuff I like.  The feasts, tree, gift-giving, etc. - they all predated that decree.  So, in a way, I'm celebrating several religions.  Just not yours.  Sorry, not sorry.

That is fantastic you are celebrating other holidays on Christmas.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. If you are celebrating something OTHER than that, then you are not celebrating Christmas but are celebrating some other religious holiday.

Here it is in black and white:

Christmas Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

Christ·​mas | \ ˈkris-məs  \

Definition of Christmas

1: a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox Christians on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday
 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.77  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.61    3 years ago
Don't get all worked up about it Texan, we all have the freedom to celebrate Christmas how we wish.   You can spend your entire day on the 25th praying, worshiping, etc. and that is fine with me.   But others who wish to celebrate Christmas with family, gifts, decorations, meals, etc. are going to do so regardless of your approval.

No, no, a thousand times no.  Christians are not allowed to share their celebration of the nativity because secular atheists feel threated by a plastic baby Jesus.  Christians are chastised for greeting with 'Merry Christmas' because secular atheists are offended.

If Christians are excluded from sharing their traditions then what does inclusion mean?  How is secular diversity and inclusion supposed to work?

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.78  al Jizzerror  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.32    3 years ago

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.79  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.76    3 years ago
That is fantastic you are celebrating other holidays on Christmas.

If you're following the traditions of other religions, so are you jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.80  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.77    3 years ago

Um, this didn't even really address TiG's comment.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.81  al Jizzerror  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.33    3 years ago
Irreligious people will continue to celebrate Christmas as they see fit.

I'm an atheist.

I love Christmas.  It's the time of year when retailers finally show a profit.  That is extremely important to the US economy.

I always have a Christmas tree andI even have a "NOEL train" (except mine ia a "LEON train").

I don't have to believe in that "virgin birth" BS to enjoy Christmas and I don't need to have an invisible fiend.

512

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.82  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.67    3 years ago
Apparently you have chosen to misunderstand what I have written.

Not at all. You're the one determining if someone is really celebrating or not. 

No, I got it quite clearly that you are choosing to be obtuse.

If you think I'm being obtuse, then clearly you did not get it!

And now your condescending self is on ignore.

When shown to be wrong, you toss out the usual "condescending" accusation. You make that complaint so often, it's lost all meaning.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.83  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.79    3 years ago

So what? Why is that a concern? I know what Christmas is about.

Do you think for one second that it is significant in any way?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.84  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.70    3 years ago
And now your condescending self is on ignore.

Smart move, you routinely fail to formulate a cogent rebuttal and only end up getting yourself worked up into a frenzy and declaring 'condescension'.   Now do us all a favor and actually keep me on ignore so that we do not have to read your spectacularly lame rebuttals.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.85  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @20.3.82    3 years ago

No.why do you persist in misunderstanding what I write?

I am not telling anyone what they are celebrating, just pointing out what they are not celebrating ---the birth of Christ.

The ignore comment was not directed to you yet, so butt out.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.86  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.77    3 years ago
No, no, a thousand times no.  Christians are not allowed to share their celebration of the nativity because secular atheists feel threated by a plastic baby Jesus.  Christians are chastised for greeting with 'Merry Christmas' because secular atheists are offended. If Christians are excluded from sharing their traditions then what does inclusion mean?  How is secular diversity and inclusion supposed to work?

What are you talking about?   It is as if you wrote your rebuttal without even reading my comment.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.87  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.86    3 years ago
What are you talking about?   It is as if you wrote your rebuttal without even reading my comment.

We do not all have the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as you claim @20.3.61 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.88  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.83    3 years ago

I know what Christmas is about, too. But I'm not the one downing others' celebrations as "not Christmas" while simultaneously celebrating holidays other than Christmas, myself. 

That's you.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
20.3.89  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.87    3 years ago
We do not all have the freedom to celebrate

what more do xtians want exactly?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.90  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.85    3 years ago
I am not telling anyone what they are celebrating, just pointing out what they are not celebrating ---the birth of Christ.

We have been telling you that we are not celebrating the birth of Christ.   Hello?   We are celebrating Christmas for all parts other than its religious core.   Like I said, get used to it because I suspect even most Christians spend the vast majority of their time during the Christmas season engaging in the various rituals (trees, decorations, food, presents, Santa Claus, etc.) and precious little even thinking about Jesus.   (Sure holds true for the Christians in my family and friends.)   Going to midnight mass and then focusing on all other aspects of Christmas is not predominantly celebrating the birth of Jesus.

So you have your panties in a bunch because there are others who spend zero time thinking about Jesus versus 'very little' time.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.91  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.85    3 years ago

Public forum. It is not your place to limit discussion.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.92  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.87    3 years ago
We do not all have the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as you claim @20.3.61 

Bullshit Nerm, the USA is predominantly Christian (65-%).   Don't even attempt to play victim here.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.93  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.88    3 years ago

I celebrate Christmas.

Don't care what others celebrate or when.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.94  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.91    3 years ago

Best reread my pist, you obviously misunderstood it, as I have no power to limit discussion nor the desire to.

I am not a mod here.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.95  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.80    3 years ago
Um, this didn't even really address TiG's comment.

We are not all allowed the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as TiG claimed.

If a religious celebration must be done in private to avoid offending, then how do we share our traditions?  If we are not allowed to share our traditions with others then what does inclusion really mean?

Who decides what to include and what to exclude?  Who decides what traditions should be shared and what traditions are not allowed on the public square?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.96  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.94    3 years ago

You told Gordy to "butt out".   See that right there in your post?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.97  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.95    3 years ago
We are not all allowed the freedom to celebrate as we wish, as TiG claimed.

Bullshit again.  The USA is predominantly Christian (65-%).   Don't even attempt to play victim here.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.98  author  Nerm_L  replied to  al Jizzerror @20.3.81    3 years ago
I'm an atheist.

512

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.99  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.98    3 years ago

I doubt many atheists celebrate Easter.   The Easter bunny, etc. does not have nearly the draw of the Christmas tradition.

And atheists celebrating Christmas are not celebrating the birth of Jesus but rather celebrating the holiday and its many traditions that are well outside of religious worship.

Think of celebrating Thanksgiving.   How many people really are celebrating the roots of that holiday?   Thanksgiving nowadays is a short holiday where we get together and have a great meal and happy times.   

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.100  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.98    3 years ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.101  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @20.3.89    3 years ago

Tolerance would suffice, but we know how scary religious people are to nonbelievers

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.102  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.99    3 years ago
Think of celebrating Thanksgiving.   How many people really are celebrating the roots of that holiday?   Thanksgiving nowadays is a short holiday where we get together and have a great meal and happy times.   

The same can be said of Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labor Day.  What, then, are we really celebrating on those holidays?  What have we gained?  What have we lost?

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.103  al Jizzerror  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.77    3 years ago
secular atheists feel threated by a plastic baby Jesus.  Christians are chastised for greeting with 'Merry Christmas' because secular atheists are offended.

Athiests do NOT feel threatened by "a plastic baby Jesus" and most of us say "merry Christmas" too.

Atheists do NOT feel threatened when Christians tell us we are going to a non-existent Hell.

Atheists are NOT afraid of your non-existent impotent God.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.104  author  Nerm_L  replied to  devangelical @20.3.89    3 years ago
what more do xtians want exactly?

There isn't an exact xtian.  There's more diversity and inclusion in Christianity than there is in secular society.

The Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus.  So, Christians don't want to be maligned, disparaged, and ridiculed because secular atheists feel threatened by a plastic baby Jesus.  The nativity is the one and only reason for the Christian celebration.  Yet the nativity is deliberately excluded from the public square.

If the Christian tradition must be done in private to avoid offending then what does inclusion really mean?  How is secular inclusion supposed to work?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.105  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.102    3 years ago
The same can be said of Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labor Day. 

Good, now you see my point.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.106  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.101    3 years ago

Writes the guy who is all bent out of shape because some atheists celebrate Christmas.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.107  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.93    3 years ago
I celebrate Christmas.

Among other holidays.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.108  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.94    3 years ago
nor the desire to

Then you wouldn't have told anyone to "butt out".

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.109  sandy-2021492  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.99    3 years ago
I doubt many atheists celebrate Easter.

I like a Lindt chocolate bunny.

And jelly beans, especially the black ones.

And ham.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.110  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.104    3 years ago
Yet the nativity is deliberately excluded from the public square.

Because so many people are also afraid of a Baphomet.

What do you have against religions being treated equally by government?  No Baphomets > no plastic baby Jesus.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.111  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.97    3 years ago
Bullshit again.  The USA is predominantly Christian (65-%).   Don't even attempt to play victim here.

If the USA is predominantly Christian then majority rule favors Christians, doesn't it?  The democratic majority gets to choose?  Right?  Isn't that how secular democracy is supposed to work?

Or is religion excluded from democracy by secular discrimination?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.112  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.98    3 years ago

Nobody is trash-talking Jesus.  For the most part, we like his message.  It's not his fault that his birthday got dishonestly pasted onto a bunch of different religious traditions that had nothing to do with him.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.113  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.111    3 years ago

Nope.  That is prevented by the Bill of Rights, specifically the First Amendment.  If it weren't, we'd all get a say on what flavor of Christian you have to be.  If it's the Puritan flavor, you'd be jailed for having a Christmas tree.  Oliver Cromwell and the English parliament tried that after beheading their king.  It turned out to be not very popular.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.114  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.108    3 years ago

Flag it and remove it then if it is too upsetting to look at.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.115  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.114    3 years ago

Nah, I prefer your behavior to stand for all to see.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.116  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.107    3 years ago

Yes, Like New Years, Thanksgiving, Easter, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Flag Day, July 4th, etc.

So?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.117  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.116    3 years ago

And Yule, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, and Ostara.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.118  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.115    3 years ago

Then that makes it senseless to go on and on about it.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.119  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.118    3 years ago

I'm just pointing out that you did indeed do that which you claimed not to have done.

If you don't like that, don't do it.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.120  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.105    3 years ago
Good, now you see my point.

Then the point is to make holidays pointless.  Why do we need government sanctioned pointless days?

You know, Christians don't need a government sanctioned holiday to celebrate Christmas.  Removing Christmas as a government sanctioned holiday won't stop the celebration of Christmas.  Christians celebrate Easter without a government sanctioned holiday.  Maybe it would be wise to remove December 25th from the government's list of pointless holidays.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.121  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.120    3 years ago
Then the point is to make holidays pointless. 

No, Nerm, the point is to celebrate each holiday as the individual wishes to celebrate the holiday.

We all do not need to conform to your one allowed method of celebration.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.122  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.118    3 years ago

You are the one going on and on about it.   Have you not noticed?

It is the Christians on this seed who are all bent out of shape.   How dare atheists celebrate Christmas in their own way!!!   For that matter, by logical extension, how dare anyone (and that includes most Christians in my experience) celebrate Christmas if they do not predominantly celebrate the birth of Jesus and instead are preoccupied with other aspects such as Santa Claus, trees, ornaments, presents, wreaths, lights, displays of Frosty the Snowman, lighted tree shows, egg nog, fire mantel stockings, candles, hot chocolate, party planning  ...  ?

Get a grip.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.123  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.119    3 years ago
If you don't like that, don't do it.

it is indeed sad you can't tell the difference between me calling for all people to be quiet on a subject and me telling   [removed]   to butt out over a comment that wasn't directed to him or you. You seriously can see no difference, which is freaking weird to me.

Anything else to say about it will be the last word, so feel free.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.124  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.117    3 years ago
And Yule, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, and Ostara.

How ridiculous that crap is!

I told you I celebrate Christmas.

What part isn't plain enough?

SMH and LOL

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.125  author  Nerm_L  replied to  al Jizzerror @20.3.103    3 years ago
Athiests do NOT feel threatened by "a plastic baby Jesus" and most of us say "merry Christmas" too.

Atheists do NOT feel threatened when Christians tell us we are going to a non-existent Hell.

Atheists are NOT afraid of your non-existent impotent God.

Then what's the atheists' beef with Christians celebrating Christmas?  Why are atheists so offended by something that does not threaten them and something they do not believe?

Are evangelical atheists prosthelytizing for non-belief and no faith?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.126  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.125    3 years ago
Then what's the atheists' beef with Christians celebrating Christmas? 

You are the one complaining about celebrating Christmas.    The atheists here have all (I think all) stated that we celebrate Christmas.   It is the theists who are all complaining about it.

You should read what is taking place in your seed.

Those in the general public who complain about Christmas are no doubt complaining about the public display of religious symbols.   While that has never bothered me given our traditions are so entrenched in Christianity already, there is a constitutional case to be made for the display.

But if you want questions answered by those participating then you are asking questions that have been answered and the answers have stated that there is no 'beef' with Christians celebrating Christmas.    Have fun.  Knock yourselves out.   Atheists here are also celebrating so be well and happy.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.127  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.124    3 years ago

Ok, if you can honestly say you eschew the pagan traditions, don't have a tree, and celebrate on his actual birthday (which you don't know), then I'll believe you.

Oh, and please, do tell us how Easter came to be named.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.128  sandy-2021492  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.122    3 years ago

It seems to me very unhealthy to worry so much about what's being celebrated in somebody else's party.  Why not just be happy that folks are happy?  No need to be a killjoy by telling people they're not celebrating properly.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.129  Texan1211  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.127    3 years ago

Have a nice day.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.130  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.121    3 years ago
No, Nerm, the point is to celebrate each holiday as the individual wishes to celebrate the holiday. We all do not need to conform to your one allowed method of celebration.

What is the one allowed method of celebration?  Christian celebrations are not that uniform; Christians don't even conform to one method of celebration.  You are attempting to claim a restricting expectation that doesn't even exist within Christianity.

How can Christians impose one allowed method of celebration when there isn't a single method of celebration within Christianity?  You think ethnic congregations haven't included ethnic traditions in their celebrations?  You think a Black congregation can't have a Black baby Jesus in their nativity?

Christianity is far more diverse and inclusive than is secular society.  Don't impose secular limitations onto Christianity.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.131  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.85    3 years ago
why do you persist in misunderstanding what I write?

I'm not the one misunderstanding here. You're the one declaring if someone is truly celebrating or not. When challenged on that, you then toss out accusations of being obtuse or condescending. 

The ignore comment was not directed to you yet, so butt out.

No, I will not! I know the ignore comment was directed to TiG. But since this is a public discussion forum, then I will reply to posts as I see fit!

just pointing out what they are not celebrating ---the birth of Christ.

Again, if I go to someone's birthday party, am I celebrating their birthday? That's a simple yes-no question. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.132  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.115    3 years ago
Nah, I prefer your behavior to stand for all to see.

It is quite glaring too.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.133  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.130    3 years ago
Don't impose secular limitations onto Christianity.

What limits would those be?

What is the one allowed method of celebration? 

I wasn't aware there was one.

Then what's the atheists' beef with Christians celebrating Christmas? 

There is none. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.134  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.126    3 years ago
It is the theists who are all complaining about it.

Then they play the victim, then they scream persecution. For example, the imaginary "war on Xmas." 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
20.3.135  charger 383  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.126    3 years ago

I celebrate Christmas and New Years and have a good time with friends and relatives of various religions and levels of religious intensity or no religious interest.  

Just enjoy things, it is a good and happy time of the year and a welcome break from winter and other things. .  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
20.3.136  devangelical  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.104    3 years ago
There's more diversity and inclusion in Christianity than there is in secular society.

they seem to have made a very poor demonstration of that in the last 2 millennia. how is making a holiday exclusive to 1 religion inclusive?

The Christian Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. 

good for them, but xmas has morphed into a national holiday, in a secular america.

So, Christians don't want to be maligned, disparaged, and ridiculed because secular atheists feel threatened by a plastic baby Jesus. 

tough shit, the 1st amendment is a 2 way street. define "secular atheism".

The nativity is the one and only reason for the Christian celebration. 

I see plenty of nativity scenes in residential front yards, private properties, and on church properties, where they belong.

Yet the nativity is deliberately excluded from the public square.

as they should per the establishment clause. america is secular by the constitution, the same document that makes all religions equal to no religion. religious freedom within acceptable social/legal norms of their practice.

If the Christian tradition must be done in private to avoid offending then what does inclusion really mean? 

religious celebration is a personal choice, not an implied government sanctioned mass marketing campaign for new membership. I don't see any national holidays for all the other religious high holy days on the calendar.

How is secular inclusion supposed to work?

however any secular person that wants to celebrate the holiday wants it to work for them, unless you're implying that only devout xtians should be allowed to celebrate a national holiday, like some are in this seed.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.137  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.130    3 years ago
What is the one allowed method of celebration? 

You are the one imposing restrictions so answer the question yourself.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.138  TᵢG  replied to  charger 383 @20.3.135    3 years ago

Exactly!

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.139  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.110    3 years ago
Because so many people are also afraid of a Baphomet. What do you have against religions being treated equally by government?  No Baphomets > no plastic baby Jesus.

I'm surprised you haven't researched Baphomet given your proclivity for historical accuracy.  Baphomet is associated with the history of the Knights Templar from the First Crusade.  Baphomet was prominent in the inquisition of the Knights Templar.  The charge was that the Knights Templar worshipped Baphomet which came from confessions under torture.  Baphomet = Mahomet.  The charge was that the Knights Templar had converted to Islam.

Baphomet is a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. 

The depiction of Baphomet (Mahomet) as the Satanic Goat arose during the 19th century with renewed interest in the occult which included suppression and inquisition of the Knights Templar.  While likely not intentional, Prophet Muhammad is being depicted as the Satanic Goat.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.140  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.126    3 years ago
You are the one complaining about celebrating Christmas.    The atheists here have all (I think all) stated that we celebrate Christmas.   It is the theists who are all complaining about it.

Then let us display our plastic Jesus on the courthouse lawn.  If it doesn't mean anything to you, what do you care?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.141  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.140    3 years ago

Why does it mean so much to you that you would have to shove it down other people's throat...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.142  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.139    3 years ago

The origin is immaterial.  Due to its association with Satanism, accurate or not, it has been denied public display.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.143  Texan1211  replied to  Gordy327 @20.3.131    3 years ago

you have a good day.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.144  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @20.3.141    3 years ago
Why does it mean so much to you that you would have to shove it down other people's throat...

If public display is 'shoving it down other people's throats' then any public display that offends someone should also be prohibited.  Using your argument, the rainbow flag should never be displayed on a public flag pole because that's 'shoving it down other people's throats'.

Inclusive exclusion means nobody gets away with 'shoving it down other people's throats'.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.145  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.144    3 years ago

You are comparing against people that have been marginalized.

No matter how many times you all say it, there is no war on Christian people.

It is a made up paranoid delusion.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.146  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.123    3 years ago
it is indeed sad you can't tell the difference between me calling for all people to be quiet on a subject and me telling   [removed]   to butt out over a comment that wasn't directed to him or you. You seriously can see no difference, which is freaking weird to me.

Well, isn't that the point?  You see, the celebration of the birth of Jesus is important to us.  But the holiday is all about them by their own admission.  They don't like being left out - but - they have excluded themselves from the celebration.  We haven't excluded them; they are trying to exclude us from our own celebration.

The celebration of the birth of Jesus is pretty enjoyable.  They can join us anytime they want to.  The only thing stopping them from joining us is them.  That's their choice.

I've never seen a sign at any church that says 'only Christians allowed'.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.147  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.143    3 years ago

I usually do.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
20.3.148  XXJefferson51  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.15    3 years ago

There is only one true reason for Christmas.  It is a specific Holy Day for a specific reason.  As to the other holidays that also happen in some proximity to Dec. 25, it’s fine that people who celebrate them do so to their hearts content.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.149  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.140    3 years ago
Then let us display our plastic Jesus on the courthouse lawn.  If it doesn't mean anything to you, what do you care?

I already told you that I do not care.   Read what people write.

I also stated that some would object to public display of a particular religion on constitutional grounds.   And that makes very good sense.   The state should not favor one religion over another by allowing religious symbols on public sites.  

I personally do not care because I am very used to living in a nation with a super-majority of Christians, but that the constitutional point is quite valid.

You get that right?

Now, read what I wrote so that I do not have to yet again correct you when you try to put words in my mouth.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.150  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.146    3 years ago
They don't like being left out

Where did you even come up with this shit?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.151  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @20.3.145    3 years ago
You are comparing against people that have been marginalized.

You are trying to marginalize Christians.  That's not as difficult as it sounds because there is more diversity and inclusion in Christianity than in secular society.

There are Christian congregations of every race, creed, and ethnicity.  Great diversity unified by Christ.  Don't ridicule Christians for achieving an inclusive diversity that secular society hasn't achieved.  Maybe secular atheists could learn important lessons from Christians.

Come celebrate the birth of our unifier with us.  You don't have to be a Christian.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
20.3.152  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.151    3 years ago

Nobody is marginalizing anybody except you.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.153  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.151    3 years ago
You are trying to marginalize Christians.

More false accusations.  You have never been denied the right to worship as you please.  You just can't use government to promote your religion.  Same as every other religion.

Equality of treatment under the law is not marginalization.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.154  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @20.3.148    3 years ago
There is only one true reason for Christmas.

Do you object to people taking their kids to see Santa Claus, watching The Polar Express while drinking hot chocolate, trimming the tree, lighting the house, exchanging presents, making egg-nog, etc.?

No?

Well when Christians celebrate Christmas, how much of their time during the Christmas season do you think they spend mentioning Jesus?   If they are like those I have observed (extremely closely by the way) during my entire life, Jesus is simply part of the process.   Basically, Jesus gets his due with Midnight Mass (and equivalent) and a few symbolic gestures such as a manger scene, etc.   Almost all time is spent on factors well beyond Jesus.  

If someone unfamiliar with Christmas were to observe our celebrations, that individual would no doubt think Christmas is a celebration of Santa Claus.

So while Christmas is, at its core, the celebration of Jesus' birth, do not be so hypocritical as to suggest that Christians spend anything more than a fraction of their time on the religious aspect of Christmas.    Atheists spend zero time and Christians spend a little time.   Not a huge difference so quit whining.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.155  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.149    3 years ago
I also stated that some would object to public display of a particular religion on constitutional grounds.   And that makes very good sense.   The state should not favor one religion over another by allowing religious symbols on public sites.  

Then let all religions celebrate in the public square.  Wouldn't that be inclusive?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.156  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.155    3 years ago

That is one solution, Nerm.   I think it is impractical, but it would be more constitutional than allowing merely Christian expression.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.157  author  Nerm_L  replied to  XXJefferson51 @20.3.148    3 years ago
There is only one true reason for Christmas.  It is a specific Holy Day for a specific reason.  As to the other holidays that also happen in some proximity to Dec. 25, it’s fine that people who celebrate them do so to their hearts content.  

Would you care if there is a public lighting of a Menorah?  Would you be offended if someone greeted you with 'Happy Hanukkah'?  Would you care if pagans gathered to celebrate the solstice?

Personally, it wouldn't bother me if all religions celebrated their traditions on the courthouse lawn.  Just don't exclude Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.158  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.157    3 years ago

It wouldn't bother me, but there will be objectors, and they may raise enough ruckus to prevent such displays altogether.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.159  TᵢG  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.158    3 years ago

And then there are the practical considerations.   There are so many religions and so, so many variations on religions.   This might be a Pandora's box.

Probably best to leave the public areas secular.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
20.3.160  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.32    3 years ago
If and when hell freezes over will be when I seek your recommendations on anything at all.

sound advice..So perfectly well said! 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.161  author  Nerm_L  replied to  sandy-2021492 @20.3.142    3 years ago
The origin is immaterial.  Due to its association with Satanism, accurate or not, it has been denied public display. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

So, history is only selectively important as long as 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'?

Seems like anything hateful is immaterial unless it can be used to offend Christians.  Explain the history of Baphomet to Muslims and ask them if they're offended.  Or would Muslims being offended be immaterial, too?

You know, the Muslim call to prayer happens in the United States. too.  And that's protected no matter who is offended.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
20.3.162  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.161    3 years ago
You know, the Muslim call to prayer happens in the United States. too.  And that's protected no matter who is offended.

It's not made from the courthouse cupola.

And if you don't think there would be objections to that, you haven't been paying attention.  There have been attempts to block the building of mosques on privately-owned ground.  There have been objections to the teaching of Arabic numerals in school, because of the knee-jerk reactions of religious bigots.

Propose using the courthouse as a minaret, and see how far you get.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
20.3.163  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @20.3.148    3 years ago
There is only one true reason for Christmas.

Yes, Saturnalia, which predates Xmas but shares many similarities. Then later on with Yule.

It is a specific Holy Day for a specific reason.

Specific to christians. But not specific to everyone, nor does it have to be.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.3.164  Texan1211  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.66    3 years ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.165  Trout Giggles  replied to  Texan1211 @20.3.129    3 years ago

You don't have an answer, do you? Sandy just showed your hypocrisy in your whole Christmas is about celebrating Jesus because you know you have a Christmas tree and other pagan traditions when you celebrate.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
20.3.166  Trout Giggles  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.139    3 years ago
Baphomet is a depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. 

No it isn't. Any portraits or graven images of Muhummad are strictly forbidden

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.168  al Jizzerror  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.125    3 years ago
Then what's the atheists' beef with Christians celebrating Christmas?  Why are atheists so offended by something that does not threaten them and something they do not believe?

Atheists don't give a shit about Christians celebrating Christmas.

I celebrate Christmas too.  I have a tree and give people gifts.  Even donated $500 to a local church that feeds homeless people.

Are evangelical atheists prosthelytizing for non-belief and no faith?

No.

 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.169  author  Nerm_L  replied to  al Jizzerror @20.3.168    3 years ago
Atheists don't give a shit about Christians celebrating Christmas.

Well, obviously atheists do care about Christians celebrating the nativity.  Otherwise secular atheists would not object so strenuously to public displays of the nativity.

Naturally non-Christians don't give a shit about themselves celebrating the nativity; they aren't Christians.  Yet those who claim they don't care about celebrating the nativity are militantly opposed to Christians publicly celebrating the nativity.

Atheists only want the Christmas celebrations to be about themselves.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.170  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.169    3 years ago
Otherwise secular atheists would not object so strenuously to public displays of the nativity.

Some do.   Don't generalize.  The vast majority of atheists go about their lives without such concerns.

Atheists only want the Christmas celebrations to be about themselves.  

Utter ignorance that counters facts.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.171  author  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @20.3.170    3 years ago
Some do.   Don't generalize.  The vast majority of atheists go about their lives without such concerns.

I'm generalizing about a specific prohibition?  We have TiG's permission to display the nativity at the base of the National Christmas Tree.

If you specifically claim that the Constitution forbids it then don't accuse me of generalizing.  The Constitution wasn't written only to protect the rights of secular atheists.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.3.172  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.171    3 years ago
If you specifically claim that the Constitution forbids it then don't accuse me of generalizing. 

Hey Nerm, you claimed that atheists are objecting to the display.   I stated that some do, but most do not.    Don't lump all atheists into a stereotype when the majority do not correlate with your claim.

You make a claim, are called on it, and then magically switch the focus to the Constitution.   If you want to speak of the Constitution then do so.   The Constitution arguably does preclude the display of a specific religion on public grounds;  it can be argued that that would be favoring a particular religion.

So what is it that you want to discuss:  the protests of a minority of atheists or the Constitution?  

We have TiG's permission to ...

And here you engage in trolling on your own article.

The Constitution wasn't written only to protect the rights of secular atheists.

No shit Nerm.   Another strawman from you.   I see nobody arguing anything like that.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.173  al Jizzerror  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.169    3 years ago
Otherwise secular atheists would not object so strenuously to public displays of the nativity.

The lawsuit against nativity scenes on government property was brought by Satanists.  Satanists are, of course, theists.  

Atheists do NOT believe in Satan. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
20.3.174  author  Nerm_L  replied to  al Jizzerror @20.3.173    3 years ago
The lawsuit against nativity scenes on government property was brought by Satanists.  Satanists are, of course, theists.   Atheists do NOT believe in Satan. 

Umm ... no.  The FFRF has been challenging nativity displays.  The FFRF claims that the history of social progress in Western civilization has been brought about by people free of religion.  (BTW, that's a highly selective fake history.)  FFRF has dedicated itself to removing religion (not just Christianity) from the people's right to govern themselves.  Only those free from religion (which would be predominantly secular atheists) should have a voice in the affairs of state.

You aren't confusing FFRF with Satanists, are you?

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
20.3.175  al Jizzerror  replied to  Nerm_L @20.3.174    3 years ago
Umm ... no.  The FFRF has been challenging nativity displays.

The FFRF along with the ACLU joined several lawsuits filed by various Satanic churches.  Here's one example:

Satanic Sculpture Installed At Illinois Statehouse, Just In Time For The Holidays

December 4, 2018

In the Illinois Capitol rotunda this month, several traditions are being celebrated. There's a Nativity scene for Christmas, a menorah for Hanukkah, and then something a little different: an arm holding an apple, with a snake coiled around it.

It's a gift from the Chicago branch of The Satanic Temple . Called "Snaketivity," the work also has a sign that reads "Knowledge Is The Greatest Gift."

Nearby stands a sign in which the state offers a civics lesson — and explains it didn't have much of a choice:

"The State of Illinois is required by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution to allow temporary, public displays in the state capitol so long as these displays are not paid for by taxpayer dollars. Because the first floor of the Capitol Rotunda is a public place, state officials cannot legally censor the content of speech or displays. The United States Supreme Court has held that public officials may legally impose reasonable time, place and manner restrictions regarding displays and speeches, but no regulation can be based on the content of the speech.

Illinois Secretary of State spokesman Dave Druker told The State Journal-Record the temple has the same rights as religious organizations. "This recognizes that."

The Satanic Temple calls itself a "non-theistic organization" in its application to install the display.

In a GoFundMe campaign to raise $1,500 for the display, the group explains its mission: "The Satanic Temple—Chicago will no longer allow one religious perspective to dominate the discourse in the Illinois State Capitol rotunda during the holiday season. ... Please consider what you may do to help us bring Satan to Springfield!"

The group has installed similar displays in other states in recent years. A more snake-prominent version of the display has been a part of the holiday scene on the lawn of the Michigan Capitol. Outside the Arkansas State Capitol in August, the temple presented a statue of a goat-headed creature named Baphomet, flanked by two children looking up at him, to protest a display of the Ten Commandments

Despite its name, many of the Satanic Temple's activities demonstrate a particular concern for fighting — or at least revealing — the influence of religion in public life. And satanic sculptures have so far been an effective legal strategy for making its case.

On its website, the Satanic Temple explains that its mission "is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will."

The temple has also taken steps to protect its trademarks, especially against depictions that present its symbols as actually nefarious. Last month, the temple settled a lawsuit with Warner Bros. and Netflix, after a reboot of the teen witch show Sabrina used a copy of the goat-headed statue in an episode. The temple argued the statue "not only infringed on its copyright, but damaged its reputation by portraying the statue as evil," The New York Times reported .

The Journal-Register notes other symbols that have been placed in the Illinois Capitol rotunda. Currently on display is a statement from the Freedom From Religion Foundation marking the winter solstice and asserting that "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

In 2008, a Springfield man got permission to install a Festivus pole at the statehouse, inspired by the holiday celebrated by the Costanzas on Seinfeld . A sign explained that the traditional airing of grievances would start early that year.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.3.176  Sparty On  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @20.3    3 years ago

Who cares?   Only the triggered that's who.  

People can holler it's a festivas for the rest of us at the top of your lungs from the highest rooftop if you want.   No skin off my nose.

Just don't come to my Christian celebration and have a problem with Merry Christmas.

That kind of thing makes no reasonable sense to anyone but the triggered.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
20.4  XXJefferson51  replied to  Texan1211 @20    3 years ago

jesus-is-the-reason-for-the-season-2014.jpg

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.4.1  Texan1211  replied to  XXJefferson51 @20.4    3 years ago

apparently many fine folks here don't or won't acknowledge that.

 
 
 
epistte
Junior Guide
20.4.2  epistte  replied to  XXJefferson51 @20.4    3 years ago

Axial tilt is the reason for the season.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
20.4.3  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @20.4.2    3 years ago

Not for Christians.

 
 
 
Hallux
Masters Principal
21  Hallux    3 years ago

This Costcomas I'll toss my usual bash with a band of like minded christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, hindus, capitalists, communists, at least one soul with enough orientation defining letters to form a new alphabet, and at least 2 folks who will introduce one and all to the dead ... it will be a merry time with resounding cheers for he or she when with one too many nogs attempts to dance with the tree. There are no presents as we are the presents wrapped in the light of friendship. All else is pablum for the "can I have more of mine please".

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
21.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @21    3 years ago

I want to celebrate with you!

 
 
 
Hallux
Masters Principal
21.1.1  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @21.1    3 years ago

My mother was Greek Orthodox and she taught me to always have an empty chair for the wanderer ... of late that chair has been the unedited 1914 New Century Dictionary wrapped in corduroy ... it's very comfy.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
21.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @21.1.1    3 years ago

That's a nice tradition

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
21.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Hallux @21.1.1    3 years ago

we had a similar tradition. always a chair at the table for any person that wasn't able to be with their own family that year at my grandparents house, but our big family celebration was always xmas eve on the other side of the family. a huge dinner, all my cousins around, and special treats that we only got once a year. then a few hours of sugar fueled mayhem with a new toy to play with.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
21.1.4  Ender  replied to  devangelical @21.1.3    3 years ago

With us the large family gathering was Christmas eve. Then each individual family had their own Christmas day.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
21.1.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ender @21.1.4    3 years ago

That's how we did it.  We'd alternate which grandparent's home we'd go to first on Christmas Eve.  Then go home late that night and have Christmas Day at home.

One year, the roads were terrible, and we slid off the road into a ditch.  Some guy in a Santa suit pulled us out.

My grandparents got a friend of theirs to play Santa for all the grandkids.  When I was old enough to know Santa wasn't real, I started counting uncles to see which one wasn't there, as I assumed it must be an uncle.  Nope, it was a friend we kids had never met.  I didn't find out who it was until after college, and I only knew him by his CB handle (remember CB radios?) even then.  Stovepipe was his handle.  I have no idea what his real name was.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
21.1.6  Ender  replied to  sandy-2021492 @21.1.5    3 years ago

Breaker 1 9. We have a Santa on the highway...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
21.1.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ender @21.1.6    3 years ago

That CB was pretty handy for breakdowns out in the sticks.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
21.1.8  Ender  replied to  sandy-2021492 @21.1.7    3 years ago

We had one for a while.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
21.1.9  MrFrost  replied to  devangelical @21.1.3    3 years ago

I got ya something for Christmas, Dev.. LOL 

512

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
21.1.10  Gordy327  replied to  MrFrost @21.1.9    3 years ago

Cut out a hole in the middle of the set, and you have a commode.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
21.1.11  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @21.1.5    3 years ago
When I was old enough to know Santa wasn't real

when I was 6, my sisters and I thought we would help out our parents and get the xmas decorations out of the closet in the basement under the stairs. unfortunately, that's where santa decided to store our yet to be wrapped xmas gifts that year. oops. it wasn't a happy time at dinner that night when dad got home and was informed by mom. littlest sister was clueless, but the santa threat was meaningless now to me and my sister 1 year younger than me. we didn't get any of the toys we found that day.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
21.1.12  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @21.1.9    3 years ago

perfect for the last supper at easter time. is there a rifle rack mounted or a peg to hang my gunbelt off the back?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
21.1.13  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @21.1.11    3 years ago

Mom and Dad kept us going for quite a while.  Our Santa gifts were always waiting for us when we got back from our grandparents' house.  We opened the rest the next morning.  When my sis asked how they'd managed that, Mom asked her if she remembered that Mom always had to go back in the house for something.

Every year when we left for Grandma's, Mom would "forget" her covered dish, or camera, or extra emergency gift for any left-out child.  Dad would grumble convincingly while she ran back in the house and put our Santa gifts under the tree.

We never caught on.  Either my parents were devious, or we were much too trusting.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Expert
24  MrFrost    3 years ago

Anyone else able to find mention of a Christmas Tree in the bible? Just askin' because the talking heads over at fox fake news were crying that it was part of the, (non existent), war on Christmas. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
24.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  MrFrost @24    3 years ago

Does the Burning Bush count?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
24.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @24.1    3 years ago

pffft, you're not a natural redhead...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
24.2  devangelical  replied to  MrFrost @24    3 years ago

they'll be whipping up all the angst they can off that incident. nutjob torches tree at nutjob media headquarters. the end.

 
 
 
Veronica
Professor Guide
25  Veronica    3 years ago

[deleted]

Merry Christmas to you and your family - may it be blessed [& full of peace.]

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
25.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Veronica @25    3 years ago
Merry Christmas to you and your family - may it be blessed [& full of peace.]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
26  Thrawn 31    3 years ago

Oh, is it time for the war on Christmas again? Is that still a thing? Did Fox declare it again this year? I haven't really been paying attention.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
27  charger 383    3 years ago

I had a neighbor who always said "Happy Christmas and Merry New Year"

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
27.1  Ender  replied to  charger 383 @27    3 years ago

I like Happy Christmas better. I think that is the way they say it in England.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
30  JBB    3 years ago

Should we forget how Christians crucified our Santa?

original

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
30.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  JBB @30    3 years ago

Um, that guy doesn't really have the build of a carpenter.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
30.2  Gordy327  replied to  JBB @30    3 years ago

Don't forget Jesus vs. Santa

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
32  charger 383    3 years ago

If your decorations include the wise men, put fireman's helmets on them because 3 wise men came from a fire 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
32.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  charger 383 @32    3 years ago

They'd have been better off with three wise women.  They'd have cleaned the stable, made a bunch of Crockpot meals, and knitted some lovely warm blankets.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
33  XXJefferson51    3 years ago

Thanks Nerm for seeding this good article here. I was going to seed something about the secular progressive elites war on Christmas next week and still might from a conservative perspective.  Yours was quite timely and right on.  

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
33.1  author  Nerm_L  replied to  XXJefferson51 @33    3 years ago
Thanks Nerm for seeding this good article here. I was going to seed something about the secular progressive elites war on Christmas next week and still might from a conservative perspective.  Yours was quite timely and right on.  

Well, it's not really a seed.  It's a blog made from a comment that was deleted on an 'educational' seed about this time of year being a time of religious celebration throughout human history.

It's really a secular war on religious celebration; not a war on Christmas.  The 'I'm offended' crowd only pick on Christians because Christianity is the predominant religion in the United States.  I think the secular atheists are worried that religion (any religion) would point out that a celebration of drunk sex would be immoral.  Secular atheists have a problem with moral authority.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
33.1.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Nerm_L @33.1    3 years ago
The 'I'm offended' crowd

Who's in that crowd, Nerm?  The atheists celebrating Christmas, or the Christians who are pissed off that we are?

I think the secular atheists are worried that religion (any religion) would point out that a celebration of drunk sex would be immoral.

Never studied Bacchanus, did ya?

Secular atheists have a problem with moral authority.

That depends on the morality of the authority in question.  One that condones rape, slavery, and genocide - any decent person would have a problem with such a moral authority.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
33.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @33.1    3 years ago
The 'I'm offended' crowd only pick on Christians because Christianity is the predominant religion in the United States. 

The only 'I am offended' comments I have seen here are from Christians.  

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
33.1.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Nerm_L @33.1    3 years ago

My wife and I are both atheists, we have celebrated christmas for both our lives and continue to do so. this "war on Christmas" has always seemed to be a one sided thing...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
34  sandy-2021492    3 years ago

Ah, just saw some "inclusivity" from a cousin on my Facebook newsfeed.

Think it would start a family feud if I wish her a "Joyous Kwanzaa"?  Or would she suddenly become inclusive?

256

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
34.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  sandy-2021492 @34    3 years ago

What a douchebag.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
34.2  Gordy327  replied to  sandy-2021492 @34    3 years ago
Think it would start a family feud if I wish her a "Joyous Kwanzaa"?

How about Happy Saturnalia?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
35  JohnRussell    3 years ago

This is one of the longest discussions ever on NT.  It was certainly predictable. Religion is still the topic that most divides people. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1  Gordy327  replied to  JohnRussell @35    3 years ago
Religion is still the topic that most divides people. 

Religion itself is what divides people.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1    3 years ago

Wrong, things like intolerance, sanctimony and ego however do.    
On both sides

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.2  XXJefferson51  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1    3 years ago

The “national anthem” of the Christian faith.  Where all in attendance stand 

hqdefault.jpg

Royal Choral Society: 'Hallelujah Chorus' From Handel's Messiah

a great Christmas and Easter tradition!  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.1    3 years ago
things like intolerance, sanctimony and ego however do.  

Religion has those qualities in abundance.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.4  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.2    3 years ago
The “national anthem” of the Christian faith.  Where all in attendance stand 

Am I supposed to care?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.1.5  Split Personality  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.2    3 years ago
The “national anthem” of the Christian faith.  

The national anthem of Christianity is actually "The Anthem of Love", chapter 13 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

Where all in attendance stand

Not necessarily. I'm a sitter.

a great Christmas and Easter tradition! 

originally written for Easter, it remains a mainstay of Good Friday in England 

In America, I have only heard it at Christmas.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.1.6  Split Personality  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.4    3 years ago

Supposedly at London premier which wasn't being received as feverishly

as it was previously in Catholic Dublin Ireland.

King George stood during the Hallelujah section and everyone else had to follow suit,

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.8  XXJefferson51  replied to  Split Personality @35.1.6    3 years ago

And it happens to this day where ever the anthem is played, everyone stands in respect to God.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.9  XXJefferson51  replied to  Split Personality @35.1.5    3 years ago

The article made all that clear.  It was originally intended for Easter but is used for both.  Ive heard it at both Christmas and Easter concerts.  The whole of the work is appropriate for both.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.10  XXJefferson51  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.3    3 years ago

    

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.11  Gsquared  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.8    3 years ago

Comment 35.1.8 is merely a theocratic dominionist spin.

First of all, everyone does not stand.  Sometimes, some people stand.  Sometimes, no one stands.

Unverified legend has it that King George II stood because he was so moved by the music, whereupon the rest of the audience stood as that was the etiquitte when the King stood. 

Another theory is that the King stood up to stretch his legs because of his gout during the two hour performance.

Of course, the first mention of the King standing was several decades after the premiere of the Messiah, so it may not have happened at all 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.1.12  Split Personality  replied to  Gsquared @35.1.11    3 years ago

Thank you my dear Jewish Brother from California for your unwavering support for the truth.

The truth and nothing but the truth, once again.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.1.13  Split Personality  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.10    3 years ago

It is a great rendition, so much better emotionally than the Muslims or Mayans could conjure up.

/s

and they ( the internationally famous Mormon Tabernacle Choir ) were being recorded...

no influence at all.../s

smh

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.1.14  Split Personality  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.8    3 years ago

No they don't

Stop making shit up,

it's kind of pathetic

if not predictable.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.15  Gsquared  replied to  Split Personality @35.1.12    3 years ago

Hey, I happen to love "Messiah", especially "The Hallelujah Chorus".  It is one of the most magnificent pieces of music ever written.  Absolutely beautiful.

In fact, there is a lot of Christmas music that I love, since I love all great music.

As we know, some of the best Christmas music was written by Jewish songwriters, including "White Christmas", "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer", "The Christmas Song (Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire)", "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!", "It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year" and "Silver Bells", just to name a few.  And, there are more.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.16  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.3    3 years ago

So does Atheism.   In fact, using NT as an example it is worse.  

Much worse.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.17  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.16    3 years ago

Nowhere near the degree religion does. Some on NT are perfect examples.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.19  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.17    3 years ago

Opinions do vary.

Greatly in this case.

Any uninvolved casual observer of NT can see it for what it is.    No matter how hard some try to convince themselves otherwise.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
35.1.20  Trout Giggles  replied to  Gsquared @35.1.11    3 years ago

We sang the Hallejuhah Chorus every year at our Christmas Choral Concert. Nobody stood

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
35.1.21  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @35.1.20    3 years ago

We only did it once.  People stood, but it was in deference to a masterpiece.  And when we did it, it wasn't a masterpiece, which is why we only did it once.

It was the only piece of music we ever performed with the sheet music in front of us onstage, and we still somehow managed to flub it up.  The choir director was NOT amused.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
35.1.22  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @35.1.21    3 years ago

LOL!

When I was a senior we had County Chorus at our school. Somebody got on the piano and started playing the Hallelujah Chorus. All 50 kids in that room started singing it. The chorus directors walked in as we were singing and applauded us when we were done. It was a lot of fun. I think everybody in our county sang that song at their Christmas concerts

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.23  Gsquared  replied to  Split Personality @35.1.12    3 years ago

You're my Brother, too, SP.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.1.24  CB  replied to  Split Personality @35.1.12    3 years ago

EMPHATICALLY!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.1.25  CB  replied to  Gsquared @35.1.15    3 years ago

On reflection, and without 'doing the time' looking into it, do you have any idea what the motivation was for Jewish songwriters to pen such INSPIRATIONAL Christmas or holiday tunes? Much respect! Just thinking back on all those past winters I have adored these songs.

I did not know the background of the songs before now.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.26  XXJefferson51  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.16    3 years ago

And then there’s this war on Christmas:  

Wreaths Across America 'carpet-bombing' veteran cemeteries with 'Christian gang sign,' nonprofit says

Laying wreaths on veteran graves without consent akin to a Christian 'gang sign,' group said

Matt Wall5 hours ago
The leader of a nonprofit that protects military members' religious freedoms said wreaths laid on tombstones of veterans whose families haven't consented are Christian gang signs.
 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.27  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.26    3 years ago
https://www.foxnews.com/us/wreaths-across-america-carpet-bombing-veteran-cemeteries-christian-gang
 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.28  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.26    3 years ago

Another imaginary war. 

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.1.29  XXJefferson51  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.28    3 years ago

Wrong as usual.  It’s quite real, this war on Christmas.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.30  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.29    3 years ago

Nope. There's been no declaration of war. Nobody is prevented from celebrating Xmas as they want. Xmas is still a holiday. The "war" on Xmas is as imaginary as a "war on Easter," Christian persecution in this country, or God. Fables of the mind or sheer delusion to make some play the victim.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
35.1.31  al Jizzerror  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.1.29    3 years ago
It’s quite real, this war on Christmas.

Yes.  The "War on Christmas" has claimed yet another casualty:

512

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.32  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.30    3 years ago

Lol .... your post alone is proof enough.   Xmas?    Really?

One wonders in this case if it's a real bad job of gaslighting or just plan denial.

Could be either or even both perhaps

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.33  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.32    3 years ago

Is there a question regarding the use if the term "xmas?"

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.34  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.33    3 years ago

No need to get into a philosophical discussion about it Gordy, we won't agree.

Simply put, the fact that you won't use the word "Christmas" to define the holiday is proof enough.

Don't need you to agree to know that's the honest truth.

The absolute truth ......

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.35  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.34    3 years ago

Xmas is simply the short hand way of writing Christmas. So if you think using Xmas is akin to a war on Christmas, then that is just plain stupid and delusional.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.36  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.35    3 years ago

No problem, then don't be lazy and use "Christmas" from now on here on NT.

Just for the holidays .....

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.37  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.36    3 years ago

I'll write it however I please. Don't like it? Tough!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.38  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.37    3 years ago

Lol .... and my case rests ......

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.39  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.38    3 years ago

Don't kid yourself. You had no case to begin with

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Expert
35.1.40  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @35.1.38    3 years ago

(deleted)

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.41  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.39    3 years ago

Opinion do vary, greatly in this case.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
35.1.42  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @35.1.40    3 years ago

Opinions still vary.

Even more greatly now .....

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.43  Gsquared  replied to  CB @35.1.25    3 years ago

I think the answer is that they were professional songwriters and there was a market for their product.

One of the best albums of Christmas songs is "A Christmas Gift for You from Phil Spector", originally released in 1963.  Phil Spector produced the album, and he was Jewish as were many of the musicians who played on the album.  If you are not familiar with that album, CB, you should listen to it.  You can check it on YouTube.  You have probably heard many of the songs from that album over the years.  It was also re-issued under the title "Phil Spector's Christmas Album".  Wikipedia notes that in 2019 Rolling Stone ranked it as the greatest Christmas album of all time.  Brian Wilson, the genius songwriter of the Beach Boys, called it his favorite album.  It is wonderful. You will love it.  I do.

You are my Brother, too, CB.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.1.44  CB  replied to  al Jizzerror @35.1.31    3 years ago

HA!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.1.45  CB  replied to  Gsquared @35.1.43    3 years ago
A Christmas Gift for You from Phil Spector

Listening now. . . .

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.46  Gsquared  replied to  CB @35.1.45    3 years ago

I think my favorite song on there may be "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" with The Crystals on vocals.  It rocks like crazy, especially Hal Blaine druming up a storm.  It might be Hal's greatest performance, and you know that is saying a lot, CB.

"Winter Wonderland" with Darlene Love on vocals is also pretty awesome as is "Sleigh Ride" with The Ronettes.

The whole album is so great.

Enjoy!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.1.47  CB  replied to  Gsquared @35.1.46    3 years ago

I am sure I heard these versions of Christmas songs on local radio. Very nice indeed. Has that 'turn-table' appeal we all should love to remember. I like the album ending with words from Phil Specter (on vinyl). For me, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is really great too! But, also, I hear and see (the great) Dean Martin singing the song (albeit, I don't find a sound version anywhere)! Of course, The Jackson Five sang it "stellar well" too!  Props to Hal Blaine! Yes, indeed.

We came along with "Giants." I do attest to it!

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
35.1.48  Gsquared  replied to  CB @35.1.47    3 years ago

I am sure you heard them over the years.  We grew up with those songs on the radio around this time every year.

I think the Jackson 5 version of "Santa Claus" is really great, but the Phil Spector/Crystals version is mind-boggling!  With Hal on drums, Steve Douglas on sax (I assume it was Steve, it had to be ), the great vocals and the Phil Spector Wall of Sound, it is all just too awesome.

Fun!

We did come along with true Giants.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
35.2  author  Nerm_L  replied to  JohnRussell @35    3 years ago
This is one of the longest discussions ever on NT.  It was certainly predictable. Religion is still the topic that most divides people. 

Well, Christianity is not homogeneous.  Christians are divided over Christianity, too.  If you notice, the blog is about bashing Christian celebration of Christmas.  The only aspect of the holiday important to Christians is celebration of the nativity, the birth of Jesus.  And celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded.

There have been a lot of accusations that Christianity appropriated traditions of celebrations from other religions.  That's simply not true.  As people converted to Christianity they brought their traditions with them into the celebration.  Christianity is more inclusive and diverse than anything secular society has achieved.

Christian is not a birthright.  No one is born Christian.  Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage.  Being Christian is a choice.  Choosing to become Christian does not require giving up one's ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage.  People choosing to be Christian bring their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions into Christianity.  Isn't that how inclusion is supposed to work?

The Christian celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus.  That doesn't preclude pagans, other religions, Atheists, or Christians celebrating their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions.  That doesn't stop other religions from celebrating during the holiday season.  The only thing that should concern Christians is that celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded from the holiday.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
35.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @35.2    3 years ago
The Christian celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus.  That doesn't preclude pagans, other religions, Atheists, or Christians celebrating their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions.  That doesn't stop other religions from celebrating during the holiday season.

I think that is the sticking point for some people.

I really don't get what is so hard about understanding that Christmas is a Christian holiday. Sure, there can be and are other religions that celebrate the day. But if they aren't Christians, they aren't celebrating Christmas, but something else. It just happens to fall on the same day.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
35.2.2  al Jizzerror  replied to  Texan1211 @35.2.1    3 years ago
if they aren't Christians, they aren't celebrating Christmas,

If there really is a "War on Christmas" be careful.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
35.2.3  Texan1211  replied to  al Jizzerror @35.2.2    3 years ago

How you managed to understand that your post was pertinent to my post defies logic.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
35.2.4  al Jizzerror  replied to  Texan1211 @35.2.3    3 years ago
pertinent

If you continually fling poop at non-Christians, it may splatter back and hit you in the eye.

800

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
35.2.5  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Nerm_L @35.2    3 years ago
Christian is not a birthright.  No one is born Christian.  Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage.  Being Christian is a choice.

And yet if you're born in a city/county/country that is majority Christian you're almost guaranteed to be raised and indoctrinated in the popular Christian denomination of that region. Trying to claim Christianity is all that different from any other faith that is passed down from parent/peer to child is to be monstrously obtuse. The number of "converted" Christians each year is about 0.1% of the total number of Christians in the world (2.7 million of 2.2 billion).

So you can call it a 'choice' that some kid was born, raised and indoctrinated into Christianity and then either left or stayed as an adult, but that's like saying if you're born in an Asian country it's a 'choice' to eat rice where 90% of the earths rice is eaten.

If you tell a child from the earliest age they are able to understand basic language that Santa is real, is that child really making a 'choice' to believe in Santa? Same thing with Christianity, if they are told from a young age that Jesus is real are they really 'choosing' Christianity? Or are they just accepting what their parents and peers tell them and continue believing in Jesus after they're adults because no one in the fourth or fifth grade made fun of them for still believing like they did with Santa?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
35.2.6  Texan1211  replied to  al Jizzerror @35.2.4    3 years ago

And what poo have you imagined I am throwing now?

What part of Christmas is a Christian holiday is flinging poo?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
35.2.7  author  Nerm_L  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @35.2.5    3 years ago
And yet if you're born in a city/county/country that is majority Christian you're almost guaranteed to be raised and indoctrinated in the popular Christian denomination of that region. Trying to claim Christianity is all that different from any other faith that is passed down from parent/peer to child is to be monstrously obtuse. The number of "converted" Christians each year is about 0.1% of the total number of Christians in the world (2.7 million of 2.2 billion).

So you can call it a 'choice' that some kid was born, raised and indoctrinated into Christianity and then either left or stayed as an adult, but that's like saying if you're born in an Asian country it's a 'choice' to eat rice where 90% of the earths rice is eaten.

If you tell a child from the earliest age they are able to understand basic language that Santa is real, is that child really making a 'choice' to believe in Santa? Same thing with Christianity, if they are told from a young age that Jesus is real are they really 'choosing' Christianity? Or are they just accepting what their parents and peers tell them and continue believing in Jesus after they're adults because no one in the fourth or fifth grade made fun of them for still believing like they did with Santa?

Oh, I agree.  Churches are filled with people who were 'raised Christian'.  There is a troubling notion that people can 'buy their way into heaven' through devotion.  But that's not how it works.

A church is a gathering of Christians.  A church is not a building.  A church is not a place.  When the Senate opens session with a prayer, the Senate becomes a church during the invocation and stops being a church when business begins.  When Christians gather in the name of Christ, that is a church.  Christians can convene a church in your living room.  Christians can convene a church on the courthouse steps anytime they wish to.

The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism.  Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity.  The teachings of Christ have been a potent means of unifying and influencing people.  Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people.  But that's not how it works.

Even secular atheists must confront their own crisis of faith.  Alone.  Only they can choose for themselves because a crisis of faith is very, very personal.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.2.8  CB  replied to  al Jizzerror @35.2.2    3 years ago

HA!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
35.2.9  CB  replied to  al Jizzerror @35.2.4    3 years ago

Ooooooo my goodness! jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif I ain't gon' be no mo good today! (And I hate 'toilet humor'!)

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
35.2.10  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Nerm_L @35.2.7    3 years ago
The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism.

It's not really an "idea", it's a fact, children are regularly indoctrinated into Christianity. I know because I was one of those children.

There is no place where children are indoctrinated into secular atheism. There is just public school that teaches children facts we know so far about the physical world around us. Later, when they become adults some go to college and take theological course and philosophy courses that may touch on the theories around non-physical or spiritual realms, but they aren't "indoctrinating" any children into secular atheism.

Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity.

Total bullshit. As one who was indoctrinated into Christianity it wasn't until I was in my 30's before I started to really question certain Christian doctrines and beliefs. I then went and studied several different religions for several years before I worked my way around to acknowledging that there simply is no proof of any God or deity and with that realization I recognized I'd become an agnostic atheist. I'm not saying there is no God, I just don't see any evidence for one and found that every religion I studied had very similar belief structures which were based on appealing to the emotional nature of humans where they feel better when given simple answers for questions that we don't actually have provable answers to yet.

Humans enjoy feeling like they have all the answers, so if you get into a large enough group validating a belief even without evidence they will often adopt that belief as their own and later double down on it even when confronted with contrary evidence. We see it happen in every major religion, every cult and most recently on social media. It's called the 'Asch paradigm' which essentially proved that a large number (almost 40%) of people will conform to a belief if the people around them are telling them it's true even when they can see contrary evidence that refutes the belief with their own eyes.

With religion there is no contrary evidence that disproves God thus those making the claim have a much easier time indoctrinating others, especially children who are far more susceptible. So making the claim of a God, which God doesn't matter at all, then having others validate their belief in that God its very likely that the person being indoctrinated will conform and accept that belief as true even with zero evidence.

With atheism it takes an inquiring mind to question the vast majority of the planet's religious belief and refuse to conform without evidence. It's not something you get "indoctrinated" in, its something rational adults seek out for themselves.

Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people.

Just more bullshit. How many countries are being run by atheists? How many atheist TV evangelists are raking in money from gullible suckers? Are there any atheist organizations that are worth billions of dollars like many Christian religions are? Claiming "secular atheists" see some path to power and control is laughably ridiculous, the only pathway most atheists see is keeping their heads down and trying not to piss off too many believers because we've all seen how violent religious extremists can be when told their religion or God is false. Atheists see the pathway to not getting invited to family dinners and being called evil or sinners by those who were once considered friends.

Even secular atheists must confront their own crisis of faith.  Alone.

Yes, being an atheist can be lonely because the vast majority of people around us are seemingly euphorically happy in their conformity because they don't have to wonder about where they came from, why they are here, they've been told by their priest, pastor, Imam, Rabi etc. the answers already. Of course, the answers differ depending on what region/faith you were born into and since there simply is no evidence supporting any of them which is why we have religious conflicts, often violent ones converting people at the point of a sword, for as long as recorded human history.

Only they can choose for themselves because a crisis of faith is very, very personal.

It is which is why its rather confusing that earlier in the post you're claiming children are being indoctrinated into secular atheism. It's the exact opposite for believers, they gather as many other people of their same faith around the person who is having a "crisis of faith" to confirm their bias and validate the belief/faith assuring the person of the veracity of their faith even though none of them actually have any evidence to support their claims.

So again, children ARE being indoctrinated into the many different religions around the globe, its happening every day and accepting that fact is not in any way an excuse for indoctrinating children into secular atheism because that isn't actually happening. The very idea of it is laughable.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.2.11  XXJefferson51  replied to  Nerm_L @35.2.7    3 years ago
The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism.  Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity.  The teachings of Christ have been a potent means of unifying and influencing people.  Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people.  But that's not how it works.

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
35.2.12  XXJefferson51  replied to  XXJefferson51 @35.2.11    3 years ago
(Continued) 
Even secular atheists must confront their own crisis of faith.  Alone.  Only they can choose for themselves because a crisis of faith is very, very personal.

That was so very well said!  👍👏

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
35.2.13  Split Personality  replied to  Nerm_L @35.2.7    3 years ago
The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism. 

What does that even mean?  The governments of Canada and the USA are only now admitting that they sanctioned the cultural genocide of NA Indians by removing Indian children and handing them over to Catholics and other Christian ministries to erase their natural identities or let them die.

Atheists don't have organized schools.

Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity. 

This is as inane as your beliefs about Judaism. Better to be quiet than thought the fool.

The teachings of Christ have been a potent means of unifying and influencing people. 

Granted.

Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people.

Why do you insist on having complete knowledge of nonexistent bogeymen?  Find a different source of knowledge.

  But that's not how it works

Of course not.

smh

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
38  CB    3 years ago

813 comments (see above)? Is this really true?! What an accomplishment on a topic. Go NT!

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
38.1  Split Personality  replied to  CB @38    3 years ago

Nah, we've had whoppers before but they slow the whole system to a crawl, making navigating and moderating this whale

almost impossible.

TiG did a masterful job making edits and subroutines that allow massive farty articles like this to function reasonably

if not artfully or fast like smaller seeds.

Perhaps if the topic wasn't meta based bitching about a previously deleted comment on a different seed,

on top of being a subjective religious seed about being victims of an imaginary war

I could get excited.

Alas I cannot.

merry christmas and happy new year

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
38.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @38.1    3 years ago
Perhaps if the topic wasn't meta based bitching about a previously deleted comment on a different seed, on top of being a subjective religious seed about being victims of an imaginary war

I take full responsibility for deleting a comment from one of TG's groups and causing this epic take down of apparently the now traditional NT xmas exhibition of religious hypocrisy. now if someone would please explain "inclusive exclusivity" to me.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
38.1.2  CB  replied to  Split Personality @38.1    3 years ago

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
39  devangelical    3 years ago

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
40  XXJefferson51    3 years ago

[Deleted]