Tis the Season for Bashing Christian Celebration of Christmas
Time for the holiday tradition of rehashing the history of the Christmas holiday. We'll hear how Christmas is really about pagan celebration of the winter solstice, Yule celebrations, Egyptian and Roman gods, and how modern celebration of the Christmas holiday has nothing to do with theology.
So, the underlying message is that secular society has appropriated the Christmas holiday. And the secular celebration of the holiday involves mass consumption, money, and meaningless symbolism. The secular Christmas holiday has become an orgy of greed and selfishness.
We are to believe that somehow the secularization of the Christmas holiday is because the Christian religion is evil? Naturally there's no profit in religious observation of the holiday and that's just wrong.
What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?
Merry Christmas!
Thanks for doing this. I was going to seed an article on the latest tactic in the secular progressives war on Christmas, burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees. You have it covered.
The Fox tree was burned by a homeless mentally unstable man.
One instance of someone 'burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees'
[Deleted]
It's just a Yule tree.
This is the why there is a war on Christmas, the right wing insisting that there is one when there isn't. Many know no other thing than playing the victim.
It was also a fake tree and coming from Fox News, is anyone surprised?
It wasn’t the only tree attacked. At 5 pm eastern time Fox News will broadcast the lighting of the new bigger and better one with even more lights.
Attacked? LOL! Then prove which other trees were 'attacked'!
While others exist to simply blame the victims in the war against against Christmas
There is no war on Christmas, never was, it was, (and is), nothing more than a fake narrative designed to create a place for people to claim victimhood. That's it, end of story.
It must be one of those Xmas stories. Like How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. That was a declaration by the pope that moved the celebration to coincide with the traditional pagan celebration of Yule.
Happy Holidays!
Happy Holidays to you, too!
Merry Christmas Nerm.
Merry Christmas! Enjoy the holidays however you celebrate them.
Merry Christmas or in my native tongue, Vesel'e Vianoce
Merry Christmas to you, too!
Happy holidays
Happy Holidays! Hope the holidays are safe and happy for you and yours.
Thank you, and to you as well.
Buon Natale
Buon Natale! Have a blessed holiday.
Happy Holidays.
Happy Holidays to you, too.
Happy rebranded Pagan holidays to you and yours.
Happy Holidays! Pagan, too.
Bain taitneamh as an bhféile
May your feast be plentiful and your cares be light.
[Deleted]
the festival of hypocrites...
...honoring the birth day of a man whose teachings are ignored the other 364 days of the year.
Yes, the 'christians' are forever put upon. And bashed. And repressed.
Where did you get this idea?
Well, the yearly secular tradition is to retell every historical story that castes Christians as being evil.
Are you celebrating the holiday this year with Visa, Mastercard, or what's-in-your-wallet?
To me it a haters gotta hate scenario and generally a DNE moment. It accomplishes nothing but to piss people off most of the time.
It's a Festivas for the rest of us is fine with me. Won't change a damn thing for me or mine.
I didn't know Rudolph and Frosty were historical stories...
So that is how we got dentistry, from an elf that wanted to work on teeth.
Again, where do you see this?
Christmas means many different things. There is no single answer that is true for everyone. My family, for example, celebrates Christmas as a fun holiday … no so much in consideration of the proclaimed birth of Jesus but a chance to gather and have traditional fun.
In our family we have 2 celebrations during December. One on the winter solstice (Yule) where we eat and drink and one on Christmas where we exchange gifts, eat and drink. My daughter attends Midnight Mass and enjoys the pageantry. It is never a fight in our house.
I went to Midnight Mass once. All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk. It smelled like a gd brewery in the chapel
Sounds right to me. Some of my extended family go to Chrismas mass but that seems to be the extent of their religious consideration of the holiday. Most of the time is spent preparing for and having family events. Christmas seems more to be a celebration of family and pleasant times; religion seems to be playing an increasingly lesser role.
I used to enjoy Midnight Mass - of course we had already consumed the spiked eggnog... then we had kids and had to attend the "children's Mass". That was a horror show & too goddamn crowded for my tastes.
I agree.
I have a pretty large extended family these days with my daughter marrying my friends' son. We were all a pretty big crowd before but now we're family.
Christmas Eve is not complete without one round of Monopoly
Sure, all starts with a seemingly simple game of monopoly..
Then it all breaks down. The lying, cheating, stealing that eventually leads to a table flip and broken beer bottles..
That would be Uno for us
I was stabbed once over Uno because we rented a house at the beach and it rained all week....
Or was it Yahtzee?
Stabbed?
I've been called names by my spouse and children and in turn called them names and disowned them but never stabbed them...felt like it sometimes
Could be either one of those two in our house. Well not stabbed but quite heated at times. LOL
Back in the day I had decent pecs and it just stayed there for a moment, very difficult to pull out though,
after a minute it went limp and slid out.
His spouse came over and slapped the back of his head really hard and we all laughed.
Pretty sure I have been to that church a time or two.. I'm positive there were a few pews behind me that were passing stinkweed around as well.
My church growing up didn't have midnight mass, but it did have a candlelight Christmas service the Sunday before Christmas. Back in the 80s or 90s, when hair was huge and shellacked with hairspray, the candle/hairspray mix resulted in some minor singeing of a girl's hair. Her hair was extinguished without any permanent damage to her, fortunately. Quite the excitement for our sleepy little town.
Trivial Pursuit at our house.
So there really is such a thing? And it is not just a movie on Netflix? No, really, this is a genuine (request for knowledge) question?
Stabbed? Pecs? Laughter? . . . Scar? Back in the day, I dropped a switchblade into my thigh (accidentally while playing around opening it - of course) and got the scar right now to remember it!
I will be doing exhibitions of my scar (UPON REQUEST). Lines form in the back, please. . . .
I find that after 60 years the only way scars really show up is when you go ice swimming
or whatever they call it, lol
When my hands are cold and wet they show every scar I ever got because my hands turn red where never
violated but white where scars used to exist prominently
I cannot find my hernia scar either but it has to be there.
Yes, my mother has shamed me and her grandchildren into many in PA & NJ.
It's real.
I have two hernia scars. The second one 'brand-spanking' new. Interestingly, I thought my first hernia scar was where my second one is. In other words, I thought my second surgery would be a re-patch! It is not. Lo and behold! My first scar is on the other side (of me).
It seems when a surgeon's team cuts away the 'pubes' you don't just get "naked" - you get facts like where old scars reside! (Smile.) Yes, I can see it plain and clear (now). It's a very old scar!
I remember not quite making it over a chain link fence cutting through veterans housing area at Rising Sun and Adams in Philly when I was 12 0r 13.
Was impaled for a minute or two before I reversed course, threw my baseball kit over the fence and made a better vault.
Played our baseball game and went home limping.
Washed my uniform and never thought about it again.
During the hernia surgery they woke me
demanding to know about previous groin surgeries.
They didn't believe me.
Guess I was just lucky.
Oucheeeeee!-Ooooooo-Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! I can feel the "imposition" placed on you at 12-13 and again at being awakened during surgery! Of all the nerve. What was "up" with that anesthesiologist?
That reminds me of a barium enema (?) or some other substance I drank (?) then got x-rayed and to this day no one can account for this specific bright spot on the film. I was queried about being shot ever in life? (NO. For that I would remember!)
It looks to be in a spot that would be uncomfortable for say, routine exploration looking for "determination." (Smile.) To this day I don't have a read out about it. Wonder if it is still on me?
Yes, Midnight Mass is a thing. Some of them can be truly beautiful. Choirs sing beautiful hymns and the candles glow. In the right Church it can be downright awe inspiring. My daughter likes to attend the local Polish church. It does more of the old fashioned Mass.
Interesting. Curious, in your opinion, is the Polish "old fashioned Mass" one of the "downright awe-inspiring" services you mentioned?
I have a similar story. Back in Toronto I belonged to a businessmen's organization - don't remember if it was the Kiwanis Club, but if not, then something like it, and they had a raffle at $100 a ticket and I bought in and WON. It was for a weeklong trip to Rio de Janeiro for two, airfare and hotel. I've never been to South America, or even Mexico, so I was so excited. But my wife (now my ex) didn't want to go there, and I had to negotiate a trade with the travel agency to come up with the airfare and a week at a second-rate beach hotel in Miami Beach. It was so cold all week, an unusual weather occurrence, that on the few days the sun was out we had to wear sweaters to lie on the beach.
HA!
Now that is so very interesting. I mean it really. I so enjoy when a commenter shares something from the 'vault' of their life. I really do! What causes me to laughter?
Well Buzz, you started a "similar story" with an opening about stabbing. So, I launched into your account looking to see how you offended and concern about your injury! (Smile.)
Good to learn you were just chilly and not brutally assaulted!
Well it was almost half a century ago and things were very different in America back then, so I didn't even imagine back then that I would have been assaulted. Today I wouldn't step one foot into America even to visit my grandchildren unless I was at least wearing body armour and had some kind of spray that would stop an attacker and even then I would be paranoid.
Similarities, crappy weather during vacation.
Being stabbed compared to wearing sweaters, not so much.
But old people like to reminisce and some are known for rather tall fish stories.
The first time my newish wife met the old gang for dinner she tested me for accuracy.
She grabs a steak knife and says OK which one of you stabbed my old man over a game of UNO?
One guy almost spit his food out, another yelled OMG! and the widow of the ne'er do well
turned to the others with a quizzical look
and in unison they all said
"It was Yahtzee! not UNO, for cryin out loud !"
Good times, Good times!
Well, we're not that bad - yet. Though, I can understand the hesitancy due to all the pure-d hell and swaggering occurring "live" and in on our media-platforms!
The majority of us are still just living our 'best life' in-spite of the tragedies occurring remotely.
I know the vast majority of Americans are good people, but the problem is the size (and proliferation) of those who aren't. I'm sure lots of Americans will blame it on the immigrants, but that isn't the real problem.
I shouldn't have used the word "similar", because of course being stabbed is a whole other story than a weather problem. I have to admit that I mistakenly hadn't taken your comment about stabbing as being an actual physical act.
Xmas is a means and an excuse to have and celebrate food, booze, and presents. These are a few of my favorite things
A lot of disaffected, holy than thou people out there Tex .....
Yes, and? As was pointed out, Xmas means different things to different people.
The denial can be strong in those ones.
Help them you can't
It's about whatever one wants it to be.
What you think means less than nothing! What Xmas means to you is likely different than what it means to me or anyone else too.
For most people it is. You will need to get used to the idea that this will grow less true over time. Currently, it is absolutely NOT the case that Christmas is ONLY the celebration of the birth of Christ. For me, it is the celebration of family. It is, to me, a tradition with religious roots but is not a religious holiday. And, importantly, I am far from being the only person on the planet who thinks this way.
No I have not missed anything. I am quite well versed in the religious history of Christmas. The fact that I do not believe it is not a loss. As I see things, it is a positive enlightenment.
Christmas has evolved over time. Your argument would suggest that Christmas can only be what was true at a particular point in time (say, for example, 336 AD in Rome).
That is being blind to reality.
What Christmas is, is a function of perception. The perception of Christmas has changed over time. While religious at inception (i.e. ceremonial celebration of the birth of Christ) the Christmas holiday has changed substantially since the time of Constantine. It has evolved and will continue to do so regardless of your position.
Certainly you recognize that Christmas is substantially more than simply the celebration of the birth of Christ (think 'Santa Claus' for example). This trend will likely continue so get used to it.
[deleted]
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?
That doesn't sound very Christian. On several levels.
Maybe for you. But not for me, and i imagine, not for many others too. That is the historical Christian religion claim. Many do not celebrate Xmas as the time of Jesus' birth. If you want to sing Happy Birthday Jesus, that's fine for you. I'll just party and have fun.
Uh yeah, I explicitly said I use it as an excuse to Celebrate and party. Were you paying attention? Hello?
Doing what I want (or what anyone else wants) on Xmas is my point. That's how I view the day for me. Just as anyone else can view it for themselves however they wish.
That isn't Christmas. [deleted]
Why not call it Family Day then?
What are you so pissed off about? Why can't we liberals celebrate Christmas alongside the conservatives? You are being very selfish about this whole holiday
You do know there are a lot of liberal Christians, yes? I don't think they'd find much Christian love in your comment.
An opinion but like assholes everyone has one.
Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad
I'm celebrating it my way. People eat, drink, and party on Xmas. Who are you to say they or I are not?
I don't think they would find any in yours.
Yep no doubt.
Sandy is not a Christian but you claim to be
They don't know the difference.
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So....you're not a Christian? Sorry I made that assumption. I heartily apologize
Partying is how I celebrate. Celebrations often involve partying too
My religion is no concern of yours.
Seems someone is bashing Christians. There are A LOT of Liberal Christians.
Go drink some eggnog & calm down.
According to the bashers they are all Conservative Thumpers.
Egg Nog sounds good, Cheers!
You're right that your religion (I prefer the word faith) is none of my business but you're the one that seems to be insisting that liberals have no business celebrating Xmas because they don't celebrate Christ. So you're basically telling all of us that you are a conservative Christian with your bashing of liberals celebrating Xmas.
p.s. There are many liberal Christians. I know Sandy already told you that but I think you might need a refresher
Show me where. I won't hold my breath because you are talking out your ass - maybe you have already indulged in too much eggnog.
One basher. One. And I'm pretty sure he isn't lumping all Christians together. Just the real annoying ones who insist on knocking at one's door on a Saturday at 0800.
She is bashing liberal Christians - which would make her the subject of this whole article....hmmm I wonder if that was Nerm's intention.
Wow, get a grip.
I don't give a shit what you do on Christmas day.
I doubt it
Apparently you do. I shouldn't be celebrating Xmas. That's been your mantra all through here.
I think you're the one that needs to get a grip. I'm not the one on an angry tirade.
Never said one word that someone shouldn't be celebrating Christmas. But you will read what you want to read.
You have a good day Trout.
Don't be snarky with "have a good day, Trout". You don't mean it.
And you need to go back and read all your words on what you've said about liberal Christians. The fact is you know you went over the line but now don't have the ovaries to stand behind them. Bad form
How so? Xmases involve parties, right?
Like I said, Xmas means different things to different people.
Celebrate to have fun. Like I said, Xmas is a good excuse to do so.
Perhaps nothing to do with what you think your idea of Xmas is. But as I repeatedly said, Xmas means different things to different people.
Xmas is essentially a big birthday party. I'm simply engaging in birthday festivities. That's good enough for me.
To each her own. We seem to have different ideas regarding love and kindness.
Yes we certainly do.
I, for one, believe that Christianity is supposed to be about love. Love of family included. Somehow, wanting to celebrate with family is "fucking it up."
Something tells me Jesus would have liked the fact that I love my family. I doubt he would think that fucks anything up.
As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval. I doubt Jesus would approve of your strict rules and boundaries on how love and kindness is expressed. But he still would love you.
Well, most of the time...
Nope. I celebrate Christmas with my work family, and my friends.
Hell, I even wished a total stranger at Costco a Merry Christmas today after helping her find the prettier gift wrap at the back of the bin.
What is the point of you making shit up like this? Where did Sandy stipulate that love and kindness is only okay if it meets some unstated criteria? Seems to me you are working overtime trying to find something for which to be offended and will invent a reason if one is not presented by your interlocutor.
So there is no profit in religious celebration...
Better skip the collection plate...
The collection plate is to break even with expenses and promote the ministries to serve our community and the world. We Protestants at least are non profit organizations
Tell that to Joel Osteen
Jeez, I heard that that $500K was only half of what they take in on a weekend
and that was 7 years ago?
They don't even pay taxes.
Promoting Ministers in Mansions and their Maserati's and personal jets, as non profits.
The effing gall of it all.
smh
As the Clinton's and Obama's laugh their asses off at their useful idiots from their non profits, private jets, multiple mansions and luxury vacation properties
Did you know that The Salvation Army is a Protestant Christian church? If you drop change into a Salvation Army red kettle then you are making a donation to a Christian church.
"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."
Even for Dulay if she sees this...
Maligayang PaskoThe new hot gift for this year...................
I just read a story about a group (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation) that's complaining about Wreaths Across America a group that lays Wreaths on Military Gravesites. I didn't know that Wreaths were particularly religious, sure they are a traditional Christmas decoration but so are snowflakes and snowmen. A Wreath is about as religious as Cornstalks tied to a fencepost, more a sign of the season than religious object. Seems nitpicky to me. Even if you see Wreaths strictly as Christmas decorations there are two versions of Christmas, one is the Religious Christian Holiday, and the other is the Secular Santa Claus version and Wreaths work with either.
It's weird isn't it. in the 70's when my Uncle, a survivor of German concentration camps would have us for Hanakah
at the end of the evening he always said he loved us but prayed for no snow during Xmas in PA.
Even the snow was tainted, lol.
Apparently the wreath was an important part of the earlier religions absorbed by Christianity.
Are wreaths a religious symbol? – TheKnowledgeBurrow.com
But I agree with the Cornstalk analogy, and we have several seasonal wreaths even heart shapes for Valentines Day
and wine themed ones with corks and grapes.
Some people just need to find something, ANYTHING to be offended by. Just gotta shake your head these days.
[Deleted]
I think this time they have gone too far. There's nothing inherently religious in an Xmas wreath. I think it's a nice gesture to honor the fallen
I was curious about its origins so i googled it. Interesting stuff:
That said, today this is nothing more than hater gotta hate.
Nothing more .....
Someday all gestures of kindness and gratitude will be condemned to not offend anyone about anything. I feel for our generations to come that have to live in such an ugly place.
I guess this is what America wants now.
The story of the Christian celebration of Christmas depends very much upon the century and the particular Christian group you are talking about. Orthodox Christmas isn't until January 7th. The Puritans outlawed celebrating Christmas.
Well those dirty rotten....
Oh humbug, once again I'll overcook the lump of coal.
Although Christmas may originally have been a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus and the recalling of kindness among all people, those were days of dreaming of a white Christmas that would actually happen, whereas these days manufacturers and retailers dream of a green Christmas and they are getting it, and not only that, but it's starting to happen environmentally as well.
Nobody is bashing the Christian celebration of Christmas.
They bash the myth of the "war on Christmas".
They bash the refusal of some Christians to understand and accept that theirs is not the only holiday celebrated near mid-winter, and their insistence that we "keep Christ in Christmas (which some folks don't celebrate)" and that everybody wish them a "merry Christmas" rather than a more-inclusive "happy holidays".
Every year, around Thanksgiving, I start seeing Facebook posts shared around telling me that "It's Merry Christmas, NOT Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings" from those childish and perpetually offended snowflakes who get upset about people hoping that they have happy holidays.
There's some bashing, but it's not starting with non-Christians. Some Christians are forgetting the Golden Rule, and reaping the results of their stubborn refusal to abide by the rules they'd like to impose on others.
Your rationalizations of what is and isn't bashing are ridiculous and typical of the hypocritical left.
Pick and chose, pick and chose.
How so? Where do you see people actually bashing Christmas celebrations by Christians? Be clear and provide real instances. Vague claims of persecution will not suffice.
So, your example of Merry Christmas. You think Christians started that disconnect? I certainly don't. That started when progressives started insisting that Merry Christmas should not used and Happy Holidays should be used in its place. That is a relatively new thing. I could care less what you call it but don't tell folks they can't use Merry Christmas and ostracize them when they do. Thats a verbal assault on Christian beliefs .... period.
You are only fooling yourself if you think Christians started that brouhaha
I could go on but i know i'm wasting my breath with folks who are Christians haters. People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly.
That said, in the end i could care less what people say or think about my faith. But it is satisfying to call the hypocrisy out from time to time and watch the rationalizations really spin out of control
Nobody told you that you can't use "Merry Christmas."
So, you've provided vague examples of nonexistent persecution, and a little ad hom to boot. Such an argument is neither convincing nor Christ-like.
Sandy didn't tell anyone not to use Merry Christmas. Personally I don't care what you tell me, just don't call me late for Happy Hour
How would you know that?
The answer is you couldn't. Suffice it to say you are simply wrong on this topic.
Dead wrong.
That .... would never happen.
Never
First Amendment is how.
Bullshit, you think that stops the triggered from bashing people who use Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays?
Sorry, that's just obtuse reasoning.
You're equating "bashing on", which I have literally never heard anyone do, with "telling Christians they can't". Because that's all you've got to bolster your false claims of persecution.
[deleted]
Like i said, just becasue you say you've never seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And i question the veracity of your comments here when you try to tell me that it's never happened to me when there is no way in hell you could ever know that.
[deleted] Again, i could care less what you call it but look no further than this seed for prove of peoples shitty attitude towards others who use Merry Christmas and that's just one example.
As i said, this discussion is pointless so i'll leave the last word to you
You 'weren't allowed'? What was stopping you from calling it Christmas vacation anyway?
Oh, you can bet many are still doing that, more probably today.
No doubt about it
Yes they still are...........at least in my wife's school system.
I'm just spitballing here but maybe her desire and tradition to call it Merry Christmas?
More ad hom. Still no substantiation for your claims.
How in the world would her desire to call it Merry Christmas (strange name for a school break, I must say) keep her from doing so?
My bad, i meant Christmas vacation .... got my posts mixed up
This is a perfect example of what Sandy is talking about. You gratuitously translate her comments into 'Christian hate'. And don't play the game of 'I did not say that' because she was your target by context.
Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'. That strikes me as looking for a way to be a victim. I have yet to see Sandy make claims like "Christians are evil" or "Christians are all stupid" or "Christians are dangerous", etc.
You can keep trying to spin it otherwise but you would be just as wrong as Sandy. The hate on display here on NT alone towards Christianity while sometimes cleverly veiled, is clear as day to even the most casual of viewers. The Merry Christmas issue is just one good example. It's preposterous to intimate that Christians started that issue. Absolutely preposterous.
Ridiculous, I don't play games here. I've never run from any reasonable line of questioning here ever. Least of all yours or Sandys.
I'm getting deja vu all over again. This reminds me of the "Faith" debate where you simply denied one definition of "Faith" to make your point. To "bash" is to strike violently or to attack physically or verbally. I stated very clearly what has happened to me in the past. Verbal attacks from people who don't like the phrase Merry Christmas. Sandy tried to tell me that it hadn't happened to me, which is impossible for her to know. Verbal assaults like that are becoming more and more regular these days towards people of faith. That is undeniable and trying to gaslight as otherwise is simply ignorant.
That still doesn't explain how her desire to call it a Christmas vacation would prevent her from doing so.
Lots of victim-hood going on here. Personally I do not care if someone or some business advertises 'Merry Christmas' rather than go generic with 'Happy Holidays' or equivalent. Our nation is predominantly Christian so I expect it. But it is not Christian-bashing for people to object to a business catering to a single religion. That is a silly overreaction.
Christian bashing would be unfairly attacking Christians in general. I cannot imagine that many people who would do that. Who among us does not have mostly Christian friends and family? Would we bash aunt Mary because she is a devout Catholic?? Why?
The bashing that is done is typically in response to Christian-based claims such as the nonsense of the YECs. If someone seeks to dumb down society with a belief that our planet is 6,000 years old, etc. they need to be bashed. The fact that their nonsense is religious and they are Christians is irrelevant.
No, Sparty, it is YOU who are doing the spinning. Face up to what you do on the site rather than always, consistently project onto others.
Nobody's bashing Christians. Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.
Getting offended by "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings", however, is bashing religions other than Christianity. It implies that one is wrong to use a salutation that includes Hanukkah. That strikes me as antisemitic.
Apparently so. Do you think it is appropriate to label a counter argument as bashing?
Similarly, do you think it is appropriate to label disagreement as an attack?
When people affix their own atypical meaning to common words, that screws up communication.
I don't know, perhaps she's just a nice person who doesn't want to rock the boat but lets turn it around to what started this whole thing.
Why don't the people who can't call it "Christmas" vacation grow a thicker skin and just let it go?
Lol ... no Tig. i'm not. Not in the least but by all means. Explain how i am spinning my own experiences.
Generally, I agree with you here. But note that our nation is growing increasingly diverse in terms of religion. Approximately 65-% of the nation identify as Christian. Thus, logically, we need to acknowledge that Christmas is not strictly a Christian holiday or we need to recognize that there are other religions that should not be drowned out by Christianity. And, of course, there are the irreligious who do not want the constant delivery of Christian messages and images.
Our nation continues to grow more diverse so I think the thicker skin argument runs both ways. Christians need to lighten up too.
I did not claim you are spinning your own experiences. I claimed that you are spinning what I and others are writing.
I'd say everyone who is a member of this site except maybe Buzz is surrounded by Christians most of the time, as we live in a majority Christian nation.
And I'd say most of those who are accused of bashing are probably like me - we have Christmas trees and lights up (or will soon), and probably exchange gifts and have gatherings with our families. We eat, drink, and make merry, and reminisce on old times, and miss those who are no longer with us, and take joy from the fact that we had them in our lives for the time we did.
We just don't share the religious beliefs. But somehow saying so is "bashing". Somehow, knowing that Christmas trees started as Yule logs is "bashing". Knowing that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but that other festivals did have that date) is "bashing". Recognizing other religions is "bashing".
As i have said numerous times here, i could care less what people call it. My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't or shouldn't call it.
That, is the major distinction here. In my case anyways.
Exactly! It strikes me as over-reaction to claim victimization.
Well if I wished someone Merry Christmas (as I routinely do in response to the same wish) and someone objected to my response, my hackles would go up too.
Thing is, I bet you $$$$ that Sandy would respond just like you and I would.
Who has told you that you can't say Merry Christmas? Specifically...someone in your real life? someone here on NT?
I would, and do, and often am the first to say "Merry Christmas."
Why, exactly, are you quoting my words to me?
Be specific.
Had i "specifically" accused you or anyone else here of that, the posts would already be gone.
Yeah, there are people here who regularly bash Christians. No spin to that at all. That's just a fact.
Not sure why you having such trouble with that.
I suppose using derogatory terms such as "thumpers" is a kind expression.
A counter-argument is not bashing. It might contain bashing but that goes beyond the definition of counter-argument.
In and of itself, offering a counter to an argument is not bashing.
You effectively said that bashing is bashing.
And now you do the same with disagreement. Disagreement in and of itself is not an attack. One must add attack language. Thus you have stated that an attack is an attack.
Think about this Texan, one could make a supporting argument and include bashing within it. One could also agree and weave bashing into the agreement.
Stop trying to mess with the meaning of common words.
Good grief man, don't just chop off the context. Here is Sandy's next (and critically important) sentence which qualifies her meaning:
Use common sense. Obviously Sandy is not claiming that on the entire planet nobody bashes Christians. Cherry-picking a single sentence to create a strawman is intellectually dishonest.
Okay, over the years .... family, friends, random acquaintances, teachers, profs, smartasses online, etc, etc
Try this sometime this holiday season. Go to a place where you usually say Happy Holidays and say Merry Christmas instead. See what happens. I'm not saying people will tell you not to say Merry Christmas but the uncomfortable index meter will likely start pegging ....
I for one think it is ridiculous that i have places i need to say Happy Holidays for people to be comfortable or Merry Christmas for people to be comfortable and i'm expected to know the difference.
Absolutely ridiculous in both cases
Some people have had horrible experiences with a specific type of Christian church and/or cult and it has colored their world view. Why don't you consider that the next time that word offends you? As a kind, caring, Christian as I know you are, I really shouldn't have to remind you
So am I. It's a habit that I'm not ashamed of because I grew up saying it. And living in the south I don't know people of other faiths so it has really become a habit
I think this is something we will need to simply accept. As the nation grows more religiously diverse we necessarily will see the dominance of Christianity wane. Christmas, since that is our focus, will need to be viewed in more general terms (not simply a Christian holiday) or we will continue to move to more inclusive language for the population such as "Seasons Greetings" / "Happy Holidays".
Living here in the South, I always say Merry Christmas. Saying Happy Holidays around here is sure to start a ruckus
Quotes?
We have all had our own horrible experiences in life. Most educated adults know not to stereotype and bash an entire group.
You now nothing about me so please do not talk out of your ass about me.
Same. To my knowledge, there are no Jewish people in my county. I have seen a few people I believe are Muslims and Hindus, but not very many. The vast majority are Christians, and I know a few atheists.
The teachers have a tough gig. Caught between a rock and a hard spot.
You won't be getting a specific answer to that question.
Ah, so, a term of employment from an agency of a government that is not supposed to endorse one religion over another, especially with a captive audience of children?
And I'm quite sure that your daughter was allowed to call it whatever she wanted, especially at home.
Some employers prefer to be religiously neutral, as their customers may be followers of religions other than Christianity. So they have their employees use religiously neutral greetings, especially if they are located in culturally diverse areas. That's just good for business.
Of course, after they clock out, those employees can use whichever they want in their non-business interactions.
Trout said, as a kind and caring Christian
You say, don't talk out your ass about me....
Ok, I guess calling someone a kind and caring Christian is a bad thing...
Fitting I guess.
That is another word you misuse. Every time I show you to be wrong you deem it as 'condescending'.
That was rude. I don't even know what brought that on.
I know of atheists where I work and I don't think they care. There are some Muslims and maybe one Hindu that I know of. But pretty much everyone is Christian
Agree but diversity is not the one way street many people try to make it.
Lol .... it pisses me off just as much when someone gives me shit about saying Happy Holidays and when they do it for saying Merry Christmas.
Everyone just needs to R E L A X ...... live and let live i say.
Why get pissed off?
If they would acknowledge all holidays, that would be fine. But I think we all know they don't.
I was going to just say why not but since you and i turned over a new leaf right?
Because it shouldn't matter which you say. That's just some more judgemental, sanctimonious bullshit when people call you out on stuff like that.
I say walk away and go get another beer. Life is too short to be in a perpetual snit...except when I'm driving
Stop with the sweeping generalizations please ....
Good advice, that i follow at lot .... but not always.
Flag it if it bothers you.
A better tactic would be to not make comments that are easily shown to be wrong.
Nah, i usually leave that for others and you know it.
So, either flag it, or deal with me saying it.
If i wanted to, i already would have. Don't need instructions.
That said, if you don't like MY comments feel free to flag them.
Otherwise they remains as is.
Neither do I, Sparty, and yet you presumed to issue instructions. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I was not the first to issue instructions, BTW. That was you.
Thanks Kathleen.
I couldn’t have better described the content of the post we are responding to. Well said! 🥳👍👏🎄
Exactly! Well said and right on!
bravo! 👍👏
'We' know.
I still make a point of Calling it Christmas vacation and Easter vacation instead of the seasonal alternatives.
The bottom line on this subject…
Reminds of when it was said that it’s possible that a god exists… but, the only God that can not possibly exist is the one of the Bible that Christians believe in. It’s the only “God” that can not possibly exist….
Fantasy land here XX? The gods that cannot exist —as defined— are those whose definitions are self-contradictory.
That is how it works. That which is defined as a contradiction cannot logically exist —as defined—.
Where I work it’s not even an issue. No one here would tell another to say “winter” break instead of Christmas vacation.
some on the secular left feel it their right to talk down to us theistic conservatives because they can…
That is exactly why the term is used here. It is intended to offend.
And you know that exactly how?
[deleted]
[deleted]
God exists and His Son is The Reason for the ChristMass Season.
Some of that is because the secular left isn't as inclusive so doesn't understand what we're talking about. Christianity has achieved more inclusive diversity than secular society.
You know, the secular left can join us in enjoying the celebration of the birth of Christ. They don't have to become Christians. Christians are more open minded, they won't exclude non-Christians from the celebration.
Life is too short. Period. Why waste time on the unimportant stuff?
You know, the secular atheists say they celebrate what is important to them. Why should they waste time complaining about Christians celebrating what is important to Christians? Those complaints seem to be a life waster.
They haven't been. That's just another of the many straw men you've raised up here.
Some people here have described how they do just that. They were told they were "fucking it up".
Like the focus of your blog?
Actually, since you did make a massive sweeping generalization, it appears you do need instruction.
Flag it if it bothers you.
I didn’t stutter
No. You trolled.
Flag it if it bothers you.
Again, feel free to flag it if it bothers you.
You overestimate the effectiveness of your trolling.
Lol .... you overestimate the quality of your bait. Not biting. Besides, one can’t overestimate something one hasn’t done in the first place.
That's nice. Prove it!
There's no evidence of any god/s existing.
I reminded a face book friend that holiday is actually an amalgam of the words Holy Day and happy holidays is to wish every one of every faith a blessed season. She didn't argue and actually thanked me for telling her that
Yup. "Happy holidays" covers it all. It is wishing somebody a merry Christmas, among all the other holidays celebrated this time of year. To me, it's just an easy way to cover all the bases.
Christmas is a religious holiday.
The new modern tradition is to recount the history of the holiday season; solstice celebrations, pagan celebrations, celebrations in ancient Egyptian, Middle Eastern, Greek, and Roman cultures. That history emphasizes the religious roots of the Christmas holiday.
The Christmas holiday has always been about religious celebrations since before recorded history. Stonehenge was constructed to celebrate what we call the Christmas holiday.
The 'War on Christmas' is an attempt to secularize the holiday. Christmas, or whatever the hell you want to call it, has never, ever been a secular holiday for thousands of years. Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration throughout human history. Christmas is a holy day, no matter what religious beliefs are celebrated. Secular atheists can make no claim on Christmas as their holiday. There is no freedom from religion on Christmas.
For some, not for everyone. You recognize that, right?
Our nation is growing less Christian each year. The holiday will either grow more inclusive or will be marginalized. This is a force of nature, Nerm, nobody has to do anything for this to occur.
It is now both a religious and secular holiday. And the religious part - well, the religion co-opted the traditions of other religions and pasted the birth of Jesus onto them. That is the history. Recounting the history isn't bashing. Knowing facts isn't bashing.
It is very interesting that you equate knowledge with bashing.
Christmas has always been a religious holiday. The religious beliefs, traditions, and celebrations have changed throughout history but the holiday as a time for religious celebration has never changed.
Are you claiming that secularism is a religion?
Our nation is growing less religious each year.
Christians aren't demanding that everyone celebrate as they do. But Christians are demanding that they be allowed to celebrate in the historical time for religious celebration according to their own traditions, beliefs, and practices.
Secular atheism is not a religion. And mass consumption to satisfy greed is not a religious practice.
You can call it a religious holiday, I call it another day of the year where I do all the cooking and cleaning up and pretend to make merry.
It only gets fun for me when somebody breaks out Cards Against Humanity
Who's stopping them?
You can make the claim all you like, Nerm. Others will recognize that the religion made up some things (date of Jesus's birth, for example), and co-opted some others (Christmas trees, for example). It might always have been a religious celebration, but it wasn't always your religion's celebration. Before that, it was a pagan celebration.
If no religion can claim sole ownership (and they can't), then nonbelievers can celebrate it, too.
And they can do so with as much or as little consumption as they like, as Christians always have. I believe Christians also like to give gifts, yes? Sometimes extravagant ones.
Who's trying to change the date of Christmas?
Nobody. Just more vague claims of persecution that isn't happening.
What is happening is a bashing of all religious celebration on the holy day. The history is that the holiday has always been a time for religious celebration.
You may want to divert attention onto Christians but the 'War on Christmas' is a war on all religions. Christmas is a time for pagan Yule, too. And those pagan religious traditions, beliefs, and practices have been incorporated into the Christmas holiday.
Meeting under the mistletoe is a religious tradition. Decking the halls with holly is a religious tradition. The Yule tree is a religious tradition. Those aren't Christian religious traditions yet they are part of the religious celebrations during the Christmas holiday.
Secular atheists who are claiming freedom from religion. There is no freedom of religion during a holiday that has always been about religious celebration.
You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
"Bashing" would be heckling people marching in Christmas parades, or turning the water hose on Christmas carolers. Boycotting "A Christmas Story" (a cardinal sin, in my book), or purposely ruining Christmas dinner.
Even just objecting to the celebration of Christmas could be construed as "bashing".
And nobody here is doing any of that. It is ridiculous to claim that Christmas is being bashed.
Of course they aren't Christian. Which is why it is ridiculous when some Christians claim sole ownership of December 25th. A lot of those traditions weren't theirs to start with, and they have no room to get in a snit when other people either point that out, or choose to indulge in those traditions without tacking on the mistaken traditions (Jesus's birthdate) of another religion.
Of course there is. Unless you think it's ok for you to be forced to fast during Ramadan. After all, that has always been a religious celebration, too.
Nobody drags me to Midnight Mass, and nobody forces you to fast during Ramadan. Freedom from religion.
I mean, you do realize that them choosing not to celebrate (if they so choose) has no effect on you, right? That their freedom from religion doesn't lock you out of your church on Christmas day?
Not for everyone.
A truly stupid question that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote.
Sure, and they have every right to do so.
Correct. Again, why do you make statements like this? I have not suggested atheism is a religion so why bring in this strawman from thin air? Hello?
And yet again, who claims it is? Strawman after strawman with you.
As far as I can tell, the religious and non religious generally celebrate the holiday in the same ways...
I do everything except pray or go to church.
Tree, lights, gifts, carols, big dinner and my parents' house, Santa gifts for the little ones, Christmas movies (not those sappy Hallmark ones, thank you very much).
For much of it that is true. I have lived among Christians my entire life and in my circle the most religious thing I see is going to church. Other than the Midnight Mass, etc. the rest of the time is spent on decorations (albeit some religious), gifting, partying, etc.
One is living in a reality of their own choosing to believe that Christmas time, as a whole, is predominantly spent in religious consideration. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I have an Aunt and Uncle that are Mormons.
They don't celebrate Christmas or even birthdays.
So I guess I can say, some Christian people do not celebrate Christmas.
Jesus' birth is the Christian specific celebration. All the other religious traditions have been incorporated into the holiday to include them; not to exclude them.
A Christmas tree is not a Christian tradition. That's a pagan religious tradition. Christians have included (not excluded) that religious tradition. Christians make a Yule tree a Christmas tree by placing a Christmas star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel on top but it's still a pagan religious tradition.
Lighting candles is not a Christian tradition. Caroling is not a Christian tradition. Feasting is not a Christian tradition. Those religious traditions have been included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations. Those traditions were not co-opted to be Christian traditions; they were included (not excluded) from holiday celebrations to welcome and include the religious traditions of many faiths and religious traditions.
If Christians wanted the holiday to be strictly a Christian holiday then those other religious traditions would be excluded. But that is not what has happened. Christians may not follow the rituals and practices of other faiths but Christians have incorporated parts of those traditions into their own celebrations to include them and not to exclude them.
That's an argle-bargle argument trying to change the subject. I am Christian. It is my religious tradition to greet people with 'Merry Christmas'. That's not intended to offend; that's intended to practice my religion. If you are offended by my saying 'Merry Christmas' then you are offended by my religion. And if you tell me I should say 'Happy Holidays' then you are insulting my religion and my religious traditions.
I do not expect you to greet me with 'Merry Christmas'; especially if you are not a Christian. But if you tell me I cannot practice my religion because you are offended then you are calling for Holy War - or - Jihad, if I understand the Muslim meaning.
Yes, for everyone. What we call Christmas has always been a time for religious celebration. What we call Christmas has never, ever been a secular holiday throughout all of human history.
Rewriting history won't change that history. What we call Christmas has always been a time of religious celebration for everyone.
Christmas is not and never has been a holiday for secular atheists. Period.
Then maybe they should have chosen a day when he was born. It wasn't in December.
And they can choose not to be included. Christianity doesn't get to take over their traditions and then claim exclusive ownership of them.
Of course it's not. It's a direct response to
Nobody is stopping you from celebrating Christmas on December 25th. But you likewise don't get to tell anybody else that they can't honor their own religious traditions, even if those traditions include those Christianity subsumed. Pagans get to celebrate Yule, without a thought of Jesus. Jews get to celebrate Hanukkah, without a thought of Jesus.
Nobody is telling you that. They're just saying you don't own winter.
And nobody has said that, either. You're stirring up a fight because you're offended about something that only you have said.
Or, perhaps, other religions could be as open minded as Christians.
As I stated before, secular atheists are attempting to stop all religious celebrations and turn Christmas into a secular holiday.
The Christian celebration is focused on the birth of Jesus. Secular atheists are threatened by public displays of a plastic baby Jesus and are attempting to prohibit the public display of the only reason for the Christian celebration.
The White House hosts a number of different religious celebrations this time of year - except - display of the nativity. The nativity is the one and only reason for Christian celebration of the holiday. The nativity is the religious tradition that is being excluded from holiday celebrations.
Since when are some christians open minded?
No worries then since they're not doing that.
For christians maybe. But not for everyone.
Wrong. They simply want to make sure everyone gets equal time in the spotlight in the public.
This is not true, Nerm. Nobody is trying to stop you from having a religious celebration.
Perhaps you can be open-minded enough to allow atheists to have a secular celebration embracing the traditions Christianity co-opted from other religions without deciding that it's "bashing". The way I celebrate doesn't need to affect your celebration at all.
The Establishment Clause prevents you from putting your nativity on the courthouse lawn, but has no problem with you having one on your own front lawn or that of your church. If you want nativities on public land, you get Baphomets on public land. Are you open-minded enough to fund a Baphomet display, Nerm?
It seems to me that it should matter to those who worship him. I'd think they'd want to get the date right.
It doesn't matter that much to me personally. But it's amusing that early church leaders chose that date because it coincided or approximated the dates of the rituals of other religions. They basically stole a date, and their later followers are pissed that others are not just going along with the theft.
The other religions were those of agrarian societies, which tend to worship the sun. Winter solstice is an important day in many sun-worshipping religions. Sol Invictus, in particular, was celebrated on December 25th, and the officially recognized cult worshipping him competed with Christianity.
There was also Saturnalia, held from December 17th to the 23rd. Its traditions were imitated in Twelfth Night celebrations.
Some people still consider it traditional to put coins in cakes or Christmas puddings. My mother always put a silver dollar in cooked cabbage on New Year's Day for luck.
So a lot of those "Christian" traditions weren't really Christian at all. They were pagan. Now, I doubt most pagans really object to Christians having Christmas trees or putting coins in their food, but some do object to self-righteousness about stolen traditions ("It's a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree!") or a party atmosphere. Those traditions involved a good party, and if you (generic "you", of course) steal a tradition, you don't get to whitewash it and insist that others abide by your whitewashed version.
It wouldn't be, if some Christians weren't so insistent that only their views be honored.
Of course they are. But if you have a Christmas tree, you're not celebrating the birth of Christ with it. You're celebrating Yule, which is dedicated to Odin. You should know what you're celebrating, if you're going to be so vocal in your criticism of others' celebrations.
Some do every year with the "war on Christmas" myth, and the insistence on "Merry Christmas" over "Happy Holidays" - I posted a link somewhere on this page about who gets offended over what, and I'm betting there aren't many pagans in the "don't tell me to have a Happy Holiday" crowd. Some are ticked that school holidays are called "winter vacation". They want it to be called "Christmas break".
Yes, I know what Christmas celebrates. And decorated trees aren't celebrating Christmas. Those who insist on strictly Christian celebrations of Christmas should do as the Puritans did, and eschew decorated trees for Christmas. But some seem to want it both ways.
I'm aware that those who want only their views honored would be fine with that.
Using non-Christian traditions.
Nope, historical fact. Unless you can point us all to the Bible verses specifying decorated trees, mistletoe, holly, etc.
We don’t celebrate Christmas on December 21
You know that many of those holidays approximated the winter solstice (which, BTW, isn't always December 21st), yes?
Also, winter solstice fell on December 25th on the Julian calendar.
Never good enough. It’s like a doctrine of the militant secular progressive religion to impose itself upon others and talk down to those of lesser faiths than theirs.
Quite a few people have trouble with it being called "Winter Break". They, in ever-so-Christlike a tone, call the people who recognize other holidays "snowflakes" and tell them to "get over it; this is a Christian nation."
We see it happening. And then laugh at the whole "Christians are marginalized" bullshit.
What a fear-ridden, distorted reality you describe.
The war on Christmas by the secular progressives is real and their denial of the war they are waging against it and thanksgiving and Easter only make their war all the more obvious to those of us defending the Reason for the Season and the traditions around them.
Pretty much thoroughly debunked all over this discussion. You're making false accusations.
Only in your mind.
Such paranoid delusions.
It is pathetic watching this melodramatic exclamation of oppression in a nation that is 65% Christian.
No. I’m telling the truth about the religious nature of certain Holy Days. And of how militant secularists are waging all out war on those days.
Whiners have to whine, it's the only thing besides lying that makes them happy in their limited universe.
"Militant secularists"
He got off bail free ...... too small of a package i hear ....
out by nightfall to jingle his balls again, oops I mean bells
Ok, that was funny...
This Costcomas I'll toss my usual bash with a band of like minded christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, hindus, capitalists, communists, at least one soul with enough orientation defining letters to form a new alphabet, and at least 2 folks who will introduce one and all to the dead ... it will be a merry time with resounding cheers for he or she when with one too many nogs attempts to dance with the tree. There are no presents as we are the presents wrapped in the light of friendship. All else is pablum for the "can I have more of mine please".
I want to celebrate with you!
My mother was Greek Orthodox and she taught me to always have an empty chair for the wanderer ... of late that chair has been the unedited 1914 New Century Dictionary wrapped in corduroy ... it's very comfy.
That's a nice tradition
we had a similar tradition. always a chair at the table for any person that wasn't able to be with their own family that year at my grandparents house, but our big family celebration was always xmas eve on the other side of the family. a huge dinner, all my cousins around, and special treats that we only got once a year. then a few hours of sugar fueled mayhem with a new toy to play with.
With us the large family gathering was Christmas eve. Then each individual family had their own Christmas day.
That's how we did it. We'd alternate which grandparent's home we'd go to first on Christmas Eve. Then go home late that night and have Christmas Day at home.
One year, the roads were terrible, and we slid off the road into a ditch. Some guy in a Santa suit pulled us out.
My grandparents got a friend of theirs to play Santa for all the grandkids. When I was old enough to know Santa wasn't real, I started counting uncles to see which one wasn't there, as I assumed it must be an uncle. Nope, it was a friend we kids had never met. I didn't find out who it was until after college, and I only knew him by his CB handle (remember CB radios?) even then. Stovepipe was his handle. I have no idea what his real name was.
Breaker 1 9. We have a Santa on the highway...
That CB was pretty handy for breakdowns out in the sticks.
We had one for a while.
I got ya something for Christmas, Dev.. LOL
Cut out a hole in the middle of the set, and you have a commode.
when I was 6, my sisters and I thought we would help out our parents and get the xmas decorations out of the closet in the basement under the stairs. unfortunately, that's where santa decided to store our yet to be wrapped xmas gifts that year. oops. it wasn't a happy time at dinner that night when dad got home and was informed by mom. littlest sister was clueless, but the santa threat was meaningless now to me and my sister 1 year younger than me. we didn't get any of the toys we found that day.
perfect for the last supper at easter time. is there a rifle rack mounted or a peg to hang my gunbelt off the back?
Mom and Dad kept us going for quite a while. Our Santa gifts were always waiting for us when we got back from our grandparents' house. We opened the rest the next morning. When my sis asked how they'd managed that, Mom asked her if she remembered that Mom always had to go back in the house for something.
Every year when we left for Grandma's, Mom would "forget" her covered dish, or camera, or extra emergency gift for any left-out child. Dad would grumble convincingly while she ran back in the house and put our Santa gifts under the tree.
We never caught on. Either my parents were devious, or we were much too trusting.
Anyone else able to find mention of a Christmas Tree in the bible? Just askin' because the talking heads over at fox fake news were crying that it was part of the, (non existent), war on Christmas.
Does the Burning Bush count?
pffft, you're not a natural redhead...
they'll be whipping up all the angst they can off that incident. nutjob torches tree at nutjob media headquarters. the end.
[deleted]
Merry Christmas to you and your family - may it be blessed [& full of peace.]
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!
Oh, is it time for the war on Christmas again? Is that still a thing? Did Fox declare it again this year? I haven't really been paying attention.
I had a neighbor who always said "Happy Christmas and Merry New Year"
I like Happy Christmas better. I think that is the way they say it in England.
Should we forget how Christians crucified our Santa?
Um, that guy doesn't really have the build of a carpenter.
Don't forget Jesus vs. Santa .
If your decorations include the wise men, put fireman's helmets on them because 3 wise men came from a fire
They'd have been better off with three wise women. They'd have cleaned the stable, made a bunch of Crockpot meals, and knitted some lovely warm blankets.
Thanks Nerm for seeding this good article here. I was going to seed something about the secular progressive elites war on Christmas next week and still might from a conservative perspective. Yours was quite timely and right on.
Well, it's not really a seed. It's a blog made from a comment that was deleted on an 'educational' seed about this time of year being a time of religious celebration throughout human history.
It's really a secular war on religious celebration; not a war on Christmas. The 'I'm offended' crowd only pick on Christians because Christianity is the predominant religion in the United States. I think the secular atheists are worried that religion (any religion) would point out that a celebration of drunk sex would be immoral. Secular atheists have a problem with moral authority.
Who's in that crowd, Nerm? The atheists celebrating Christmas, or the Christians who are pissed off that we are?
Never studied Bacchanus, did ya?
That depends on the morality of the authority in question. One that condones rape, slavery, and genocide - any decent person would have a problem with such a moral authority.
The only 'I am offended' comments I have seen here are from Christians.
My wife and I are both atheists, we have celebrated christmas for both our lives and continue to do so. this "war on Christmas" has always seemed to be a one sided thing...
Ah, just saw some "inclusivity" from a cousin on my Facebook newsfeed.
Think it would start a family feud if I wish her a "Joyous Kwanzaa"? Or would she suddenly become inclusive?
What a douchebag.
How about Happy Saturnalia?
This is one of the longest discussions ever on NT. It was certainly predictable. Religion is still the topic that most divides people.
Religion itself is what divides people.
Wrong, things like intolerance, sanctimony and ego however do.
On both sides
The “national anthem” of the Christian faith. Where all in attendance stand
Royal Choral Society: 'Hallelujah Chorus' From Handel's Messiah
a great Christmas and Easter tradition!
Religion has those qualities in abundance.
Am I supposed to care?
The national anthem of Christianity is actually "The Anthem of Love", chapter 13 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.
Not necessarily. I'm a sitter.
originally written for Easter, it remains a mainstay of Good Friday in England
In America, I have only heard it at Christmas.
Supposedly at London premier which wasn't being received as feverishly
as it was previously in Catholic Dublin Ireland.
King George stood during the Hallelujah section and everyone else had to follow suit,
And it happens to this day where ever the anthem is played, everyone stands in respect to God.
The article made all that clear. It was originally intended for Easter but is used for both. Ive heard it at both Christmas and Easter concerts. The whole of the work is appropriate for both.
Comment 35.1.8 is merely a theocratic dominionist spin.
First of all, everyone does not stand. Sometimes, some people stand. Sometimes, no one stands.
Unverified legend has it that King George II stood because he was so moved by the music, whereupon the rest of the audience stood as that was the etiquitte when the King stood.
Another theory is that the King stood up to stretch his legs because of his gout during the two hour performance.
Of course, the first mention of the King standing was several decades after the premiere of the Messiah, so it may not have happened at all
Thank you my dear Jewish Brother from California for your unwavering support for the truth.
The truth and nothing but the truth, once again.
It is a great rendition, so much better emotionally than the Muslims or Mayans could conjure up.
/s
and they ( the internationally famous Mormon Tabernacle Choir ) were being recorded...
no influence at all.../s
smh
No they don't
Stop making shit up,
it's kind of pathetic
if not predictable.
Hey, I happen to love "Messiah", especially "The Hallelujah Chorus". It is one of the most magnificent pieces of music ever written. Absolutely beautiful.
In fact, there is a lot of Christmas music that I love, since I love all great music.
As we know, some of the best Christmas music was written by Jewish songwriters, including "White Christmas", "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer", "The Christmas Song (Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire)", "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!", "It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year" and "Silver Bells", just to name a few. And, there are more.
So does Atheism. In fact, using NT as an example it is worse.
Much worse.
Nowhere near the degree religion does. Some on NT are perfect examples.
Opinions do vary.
Greatly in this case.
Any uninvolved casual observer of NT can see it for what it is. No matter how hard some try to convince themselves otherwise.
We sang the Hallejuhah Chorus every year at our Christmas Choral Concert. Nobody stood
We only did it once. People stood, but it was in deference to a masterpiece. And when we did it, it wasn't a masterpiece, which is why we only did it once.
It was the only piece of music we ever performed with the sheet music in front of us onstage, and we still somehow managed to flub it up. The choir director was NOT amused.
LOL!
When I was a senior we had County Chorus at our school. Somebody got on the piano and started playing the Hallelujah Chorus. All 50 kids in that room started singing it. The chorus directors walked in as we were singing and applauded us when we were done. It was a lot of fun. I think everybody in our county sang that song at their Christmas concerts
You're my Brother, too, SP.
EMPHATICALLY!
On reflection, and without 'doing the time' looking into it, do you have any idea what the motivation was for Jewish songwriters to pen such INSPIRATIONAL Christmas or holiday tunes? Much respect! Just thinking back on all those past winters I have adored these songs.
I did not know the background of the songs before now.
And then there’s this war on Christmas:
Another imaginary war.
Wrong as usual. It’s quite real, this war on Christmas.
Nope. There's been no declaration of war. Nobody is prevented from celebrating Xmas as they want. Xmas is still a holiday. The "war" on Xmas is as imaginary as a "war on Easter," Christian persecution in this country, or God. Fables of the mind or sheer delusion to make some play the victim.
Yes. The "War on Christmas" has claimed yet another casualty:
Lol .... your post alone is proof enough. Xmas? Really?
One wonders in this case if it's a real bad job of gaslighting or just plan denial.
Could be either or even both perhaps
Is there a question regarding the use if the term "xmas?"
No need to get into a philosophical discussion about it Gordy, we won't agree.
Simply put, the fact that you won't use the word "Christmas" to define the holiday is proof enough.
Don't need you to agree to know that's the honest truth.
The absolute truth ......
Xmas is simply the short hand way of writing Christmas. So if you think using Xmas is akin to a war on Christmas, then that is just plain stupid and delusional.
No problem, then don't be lazy and use "Christmas" from now on here on NT.
Just for the holidays .....
I'll write it however I please. Don't like it? Tough!
Lol .... and my case rests ......
Don't kid yourself. You had no case to begin with
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Opinion do vary, greatly in this case.
Opinions still vary.
Even more greatly now .....
I think the answer is that they were professional songwriters and there was a market for their product.
One of the best albums of Christmas songs is "A Christmas Gift for You from Phil Spector", originally released in 1963. Phil Spector produced the album, and he was Jewish as were many of the musicians who played on the album. If you are not familiar with that album, CB, you should listen to it. You can check it on YouTube. You have probably heard many of the songs from that album over the years. It was also re-issued under the title "Phil Spector's Christmas Album". Wikipedia notes that in 2019 Rolling Stone ranked it as the greatest Christmas album of all time. Brian Wilson, the genius songwriter of the Beach Boys, called it his favorite album. It is wonderful. You will love it. I do.
You are my Brother, too, CB.
HA!
Listening now. . . .
I think my favorite song on there may be "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" with The Crystals on vocals. It rocks like crazy, especially Hal Blaine druming up a storm. It might be Hal's greatest performance, and you know that is saying a lot, CB.
"Winter Wonderland" with Darlene Love on vocals is also pretty awesome as is "Sleigh Ride" with The Ronettes.
The whole album is so great.
Enjoy!
I am sure I heard these versions of Christmas songs on local radio. Very nice indeed. Has that 'turn-table' appeal we all should love to remember. I like the album ending with words from Phil Specter (on vinyl). For me, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is really great too! But, also, I hear and see (the great) Dean Martin singing the song (albeit, I don't find a sound version anywhere)! Of course, The Jackson Five sang it "stellar well" too! Props to Hal Blaine! Yes, indeed.
We came along with "Giants." I do attest to it!
I am sure you heard them over the years. We grew up with those songs on the radio around this time every year.
I think the Jackson 5 version of "Santa Claus" is really great, but the Phil Spector/Crystals version is mind-boggling! With Hal on drums, Steve Douglas on sax (I assume it was Steve, it had to be ), the great vocals and the Phil Spector Wall of Sound, it is all just too awesome.
Fun!
We did come along with true Giants.
Well, Christianity is not homogeneous. Christians are divided over Christianity, too. If you notice, the blog is about bashing Christian celebration of Christmas. The only aspect of the holiday important to Christians is celebration of the nativity, the birth of Jesus. And celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded.
There have been a lot of accusations that Christianity appropriated traditions of celebrations from other religions. That's simply not true. As people converted to Christianity they brought their traditions with them into the celebration. Christianity is more inclusive and diverse than anything secular society has achieved.
Christian is not a birthright. No one is born Christian. Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. Being Christian is a choice. Choosing to become Christian does not require giving up one's ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. People choosing to be Christian bring their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions into Christianity. Isn't that how inclusion is supposed to work?
The Christian celebration of Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. That doesn't preclude pagans, other religions, Atheists, or Christians celebrating their ethnic, racial, national, and cultural traditions. That doesn't stop other religions from celebrating during the holiday season. The only thing that should concern Christians is that celebration of the nativity is being deliberately excluded from the holiday.
If there really is a "War on Christmas" be careful.
If you continually fling poop at non-Christians, it may splatter back and hit you in the eye.
And yet if you're born in a city/county/country that is majority Christian you're almost guaranteed to be raised and indoctrinated in the popular Christian denomination of that region. Trying to claim Christianity is all that different from any other faith that is passed down from parent/peer to child is to be monstrously obtuse. The number of "converted" Christians each year is about 0.1% of the total number of Christians in the world (2.7 million of 2.2 billion).
So you can call it a 'choice' that some kid was born, raised and indoctrinated into Christianity and then either left or stayed as an adult, but that's like saying if you're born in an Asian country it's a 'choice' to eat rice where 90% of the earths rice is eaten.
If you tell a child from the earliest age they are able to understand basic language that Santa is real, is that child really making a 'choice' to believe in Santa? Same thing with Christianity, if they are told from a young age that Jesus is real are they really 'choosing' Christianity? Or are they just accepting what their parents and peers tell them and continue believing in Jesus after they're adults because no one in the fourth or fifth grade made fun of them for still believing like they did with Santa?
Oh, I agree. Churches are filled with people who were 'raised Christian'. There is a troubling notion that people can 'buy their way into heaven' through devotion. But that's not how it works.
A church is a gathering of Christians. A church is not a building. A church is not a place. When the Senate opens session with a prayer, the Senate becomes a church during the invocation and stops being a church when business begins. When Christians gather in the name of Christ, that is a church. Christians can convene a church in your living room. Christians can convene a church on the courthouse steps anytime they wish to.
The idea that children can be indoctrinated into Christianity has been the justification for indoctrinating children into secular atheism. Secular atheists seem to believe that attacking and prohibiting the rituals will remove Christianity. The teachings of Christ have been a potent means of unifying and influencing people. Secular atheists see that as a pathway to power and control over people. But that's not how it works.
Even secular atheists must confront their own crisis of faith. Alone. Only they can choose for themselves because a crisis of faith is very, very personal.
HA!
Ooooooo my goodness!
I ain't gon' be no mo good today! (And I hate 'toilet humor'!)
It's not really an "idea", it's a fact, children are regularly indoctrinated into Christianity. I know because I was one of those children.
There is no place where children are indoctrinated into secular atheism. There is just public school that teaches children facts we know so far about the physical world around us. Later, when they become adults some go to college and take theological course and philosophy courses that may touch on the theories around non-physical or spiritual realms, but they aren't "indoctrinating" any children into secular atheism.
Total bullshit. As one who was indoctrinated into Christianity it wasn't until I was in my 30's before I started to really question certain Christian doctrines and beliefs. I then went and studied several different religions for several years before I worked my way around to acknowledging that there simply is no proof of any God or deity and with that realization I recognized I'd become an agnostic atheist. I'm not saying there is no God, I just don't see any evidence for one and found that every religion I studied had very similar belief structures which were based on appealing to the emotional nature of humans where they feel better when given simple answers for questions that we don't actually have provable answers to yet.
Humans enjoy feeling like they have all the answers, so if you get into a large enough group validating a belief even without evidence they will often adopt that belief as their own and later double down on it even when confronted with contrary evidence. We see it happen in every major religion, every cult and most recently on social media. It's called the 'Asch paradigm' which essentially proved that a large number (almost 40%) of people will conform to a belief if the people around them are telling them it's true even when they can see contrary evidence that refutes the belief with their own eyes.
With religion there is no contrary evidence that disproves God thus those making the claim have a much easier time indoctrinating others, especially children who are far more susceptible. So making the claim of a God, which God doesn't matter at all, then having others validate their belief in that God its very likely that the person being indoctrinated will conform and accept that belief as true even with zero evidence.
With atheism it takes an inquiring mind to question the vast majority of the planet's religious belief and refuse to conform without evidence. It's not something you get "indoctrinated" in, its something rational adults seek out for themselves.
Just more bullshit. How many countries are being run by atheists? How many atheist TV evangelists are raking in money from gullible suckers? Are there any atheist organizations that are worth billions of dollars like many Christian religions are? Claiming "secular atheists" see some path to power and control is laughably ridiculous, the only pathway most atheists see is keeping their heads down and trying not to piss off too many believers because we've all seen how violent religious extremists can be when told their religion or God is false. Atheists see the pathway to not getting invited to family dinners and being called evil or sinners by those who were once considered friends.
Yes, being an atheist can be lonely because the vast majority of people around us are seemingly euphorically happy in their conformity because they don't have to wonder about where they came from, why they are here, they've been told by their priest, pastor, Imam, Rabi etc. the answers already. Of course, the answers differ depending on what region/faith you were born into and since there simply is no evidence supporting any of them which is why we have religious conflicts, often violent ones converting people at the point of a sword, for as long as recorded human history.
It is which is why its rather confusing that earlier in the post you're claiming children are being indoctrinated into secular atheism. It's the exact opposite for believers, they gather as many other people of their same faith around the person who is having a "crisis of faith" to confirm their bias and validate the belief/faith assuring the person of the veracity of their faith even though none of them actually have any evidence to support their claims.
So again, children ARE being indoctrinated into the many different religions around the globe, its happening every day and accepting that fact is not in any way an excuse for indoctrinating children into secular atheism because that isn't actually happening. The very idea of it is laughable.
That was so very well said! 👍👏
What does that even mean? The governments of Canada and the USA are only now admitting that they sanctioned the cultural genocide of NA Indians by removing Indian children and handing them over to Catholics and other Christian ministries to erase their natural identities or let them die.
Atheists don't have organized schools.
This is as inane as your beliefs about Judaism. Better to be quiet than thought the fool.
Granted.
Why do you insist on having complete knowledge of nonexistent bogeymen? Find a different source of knowledge.
Of course not.
smh
813 comments (see above)? Is this really true?! What an accomplishment on a topic. Go NT!
Nah, we've had whoppers before but they slow the whole system to a crawl, making navigating and moderating this whale
almost impossible.
TiG did a masterful job making edits and subroutines that allow massive farty articles like this to function reasonably
if not artfully or fast like smaller seeds.
Perhaps if the topic wasn't meta based bitching about a previously deleted comment on a different seed,
on top of being a subjective religious seed about being victims of an imaginary war
I could get excited.
Alas I cannot.
merry christmas and happy new year
I take full responsibility for deleting a comment from one of TG's groups and causing this epic take down of apparently the now traditional NT xmas exhibition of religious hypocrisy. now if someone would please explain "inclusive exclusivity" to me.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!
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