We Were Wrong About America
By: JOHN PAVLOVITZ
This is how I have been feeling since Tuesday night.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The delayed results of the presidential election will be revealed soon, but in many ways, those results will be secondary to what we already know now: we were wrong about America.
The fact that it was even close, the fact that more people voted for him a second time, the fact that a higher number of white women inexplicably affirmed him—it is all confirmation that whether we remove the very visible, unsightly symptom or not, the pervasive disease is still horribly afflicting us.
Numbed by a cocktail of optimism and ignorance, many of us imagined this was a sick, momentary aberration; a temporary glitch in the system that would surely be remedied: after so much ugliness, such open disregard for people of color, such inhumanity toward migrant children, such a sickening failure in the face of this pandemic—sanity would surely come to the rescue.
We were certain that we would collectively course-correct; that the pendulum that had so wildly swung toward inhumanity would come roaring back to decency in these days; that we would presently be basking in the glory of a radiant dawn referendum on all this bloated bigotry.
We thought we would be dancing on the grave of fascism.
We thought, of course the good people of this nation would come to their collective senses, leaving behind political affiliations and superficial preferences and ceremonial ties, to rescue us from a malevolence that had proven itself unworthy of its position and toxic to its people.
We were certain there would be a mass repudiation of the racism that this man has revealed and the violence he’s nurtured, because for all its flaws we really believed America was better than this.
We were wrong.
We were wrong to believe that white people weaned for decades on supremacy, would suddenly embrace disparate humanity and make more space at the table.
We were wrong to believe that white Christians would finally have the scales fall from their eyes and abandon their blind adoration of this vile false prophet of enmity, and once again embrace the expansive, compassionate heart of Jesus.
We were wrong to believe that kindness and science and facts and truth and goodness would be found more valuable than the fool’s gold of sneering, star-spangled, American greatness.
We were wrong to hope that more Republicans would cross party lines in order to defend their country from the greatest terrorist threat in our lifetime.
We were wrong to believe that hope would rise up to cast out fear.
And most of all, we were wrong about people we know and love and live alongside and work with and study beside; about our parents, spouses, siblings, uncles, best friends, and neighbors: they are not the people we thought they were and we do not live in the country we thought we lived in.
We believed the best about this nation and we were mistaken.
To many oppressed and vulnerable communities, to people who have long known the depth of America’s sickness because they have experienced it in traffic stops and workplace mistreatment and opportunity inequity and the bitter words of strangers—this may be less shocking news than it is to those of us with greater privilege and more buffers to adversity and the luxury of naiveté.
But this is the sober spot in which we stand now: realizing that our optimism about the whole of this nation was misplaced,
our prayers for the better angels of so many white Christians were unanswered,
our childish illusions that people were indeed basically good and decent, seared away in their reaffirmation of something that the rest of the watching world finds reprehensible.
And now, we’re left with two terribly unfortunate choices: leave the America we have, because it is so very different than the America we hoped for—or stay, realizing that we are surrounded by so many people for whom racism is not only not a deal breaker but a selling point; in a place we know is less safe and less decent and less kind than we wanted—not because of any politician but because of those who embraced him a second time, people who share our kitchen tables and churches and break rooms and cul-de-sacs.
I don’t know what the right decision is.
Right now, the only thing I know is that I expected something beautiful and life-affirming was going to mark this day and it isn’t.
I was certain we were better than him, but we are not.
I was so sure that even though I know hatred dies hard, that America was going to let love have the last, loudest word.
I was wrong.
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I can always count on JOHN PAVLOVITZ to be a touchstone.
Be sure and ask him for me - when exactly was it that progressives "believed the best about this nation?"
What is the value of this question?
The obvious one. That Pavlovitz built upon a false premise.
Are you looking for censorship Bob?
There's nothing to be afraid of. It's simply an opinion different from yours.
Gee, Vic! I sure am glad you're here to tell me what I'm thinking!
It must be great to be a mind-reader. Even if you're always wrong... as in this case. "Censorship" never occurred to me.
I was just wondering why you can never ask a straight question. If you think the premise is false, why don't you just say so, and give your own interpretation?
Why do you - always - dance about?
Based on your question in 1.1, you are the one building on a false premise, ESPECIALLY considering the rest of your comment.
Irony.
WTF?
Don't you ever read the news?
(Or is it that you didn't pay attention in History class?)
WTF?
Don't you ever read the news?
(Or is it that you didn't pay attention in History class?)
Never is the correct answer
That’s not to be allowed in big tech pro censorship America!
what do you have against Big Tech?
Whad're you-- some kind of a Socialist?
Yes, I agree, Tuesday's results were not what we needed. The nation needed a total repudiation of Trump and Trumpism, and we did not get it. What this means for the immediate future and the next four years remains to be seen.
Even not being an American, even not living there, I feel the same pain, the same disappointment as you. I'm sure that except for Israel, world leaders are astonished, although they will be more diplomatic and careful and not show it. I had thought Americans would have wanted better, but no, so many must prefer chaos to serenity. Hopefully, soon the sun will come out again if enough voters have used their brains and common sense, and the SCOTUS does not make judgments on Trump's appeals that would establish that votes mean nothing, that will sink America to the level of a third world country, a country that will have no business holding itself out to the rest of the world as the bastion of democracy. Even if Biden squeaks through with a bare minimum of a win, the fact that it was not a landslide victory is to me beyond comprehension.
Many of us feel the same way.
Evening Buzz...Hmmm yesss I guess I sort of feel the same as you to a certain extent...not being an American...Interesting times as they say...I doubt most world leaders are astonished..we aren't the Kiwi's aren't... We have stated we will work with whoever as we have always done the same with the Kiwi's..And once again much to China's disgust..They are flat out banning everything from Australia at the moment and issuing the usual threats..Nasty mob the CCP..Hilarious they are so threatened by a country of 25 million people...The American people have voted, the people have spoken, even if it is not a huge percentage of the voting population...Still can't believe it is not compulsory but at least this time more people did actually go and vote..If Trump gets in he will be gone in 4 years..If Biden gets in (providing he does not cark it) the same or maybe another 4...And as I always the feral element comes to the for, with their riots, flag burning..yawn time they thought of something different... All countries have problems and we are no different..We just go about things in a different manner...The American voting system I will admit is confusing, seems rather obsolete, cumbersome and inefficient..but it is what is it is..So we await the results to, please make it sooner rather than later..Our TV is swamped with the US election here and I don't think I can hack much more..It is more than an Aussie Koala, can bare...
Hi shona1. Of course the yanks are most likely sleeping so it's nice to see someone else who's still enjoying the daylight right now. I've said before that mandatory voting like Australia's is the way to go, but that would be contrary to their individual rights and freedoms to NOT vote if they didn't want to. Of course where I am is a whole other story but then I don't really care. I have nothing to comment about the present riff between China and Australia - other than wish it wasn't happening. Just read that Australia has pretty well contained the virus - glad to hear it. We're back to normal in Chongqing, been for months now. I know you have certain health problems and hope you're okay.
Take care,
Buzz
Evening Buzz...Dark here now nearly 9pm..Yes all going well. Head back to Melbourne next Thursday, Myeloma treatment Friday back home Saturday..5 hour trip one way. But it is now down to once a month, far better than every fortnight...the road was starting to get a bit long..Yes Melbourne is now 0 deaths and 0 virus transmission in the community. Suspect it won't stay like that but better than 800 infections in one day and got it back to zero in a few months..Can be done!!..Flights are starting up between Australia and New Zealand again on Monday..they are zero as well..Yes the US election...not sure what to make of it..Hey one thing about the stoush with China cheaper crayfish for us...ripper..love cray but at $180 a kilo was a bit much, so will drop in price big time now..so not all bad..Enjoy your evening and take care too...
no no no no no
No way no how! This is America, Buzz and people like to flush their privileges and rights down the toilet. I say let them because that is how democracy works.
I'll let your comment go, Trout, because you're a good friend, but I don't flush my rights and privileges down the toilet. I have ALWAYS enjoyed all the rights and freedoms I have ever wanted and needed, (except these days not being able to watch YouTube - which is not exactly a life or death matter) and as a Canadian, in Canada, I believe I had more NECESSARY rights than Americans, such as the right to free competent health care.
Buzz, you know, I would have thought so too. I am in shock over the republican reaction to this election and the after-tactics being deployed. A senate -that held back a proper impeachment, a mangled, screaming out-loud, mismanaged, raging, and deadly national pandemic, and the republican senate is staying pat —with a 'dragon' politician nearly certain at its head. And the air is steeped with rumors and threats of violence to come that could put the coronavirus to heel.
Were it possible for Donald Trump to be given four more unrepentant years in charge of "us," I and the world would not like to see the outcome. It's simply true that a world-leading nation can not 'navel-gaze' at itself in a mirror all day; can not operate on the level of some 'smallish' operation like North Korea with world-class nuclear sized weaponry.
We simply would not be allowed preeminence, despite any national wealth and capabilities to excel, to hold the status and ranking of First nation and simultaneously be on the bottom of the most important of 'go-to' listing!
Why republicans can 'conclude' the above paragraph and chose to use their vote to keep a dangerous man in power like Donald Trump is shockingly disappointing.
Nothing that's going on should surprise.
It has been clear for several years now, that the objective of the Republican Party is to transform the US into a one-party police state. The Republican Party serves the ultra-rich, so we know that their intent is a plutocracy. We know that without the support of self-styled "Christians", they would have no voter base, so we can assume they intend a patriarchy.
Everything they do is perfectly logical if you keep these objectives in mind.
As of Saturday AM, the hoped for "desolation of Abomination" has been given notice to depart the presidency and return to civilian life and enterprises. There is hope of light returning to shine through the darkness on the near horizon.
... and we'll have to start over in four years...
That's a good description, actually!
(Especially the outdated Electoral College System, which is basis something that is desigbed to thwart the principal of "One Person, One Vote. America is party a democracy-- and party not, actually)
All too true.
Unfortunately that's still the case- although the trend is ,moving away from that (albeit all too slowly).
If the president taking office next is Joe Biden , it won't magically solve all our problems over night. However those of the "Every Silve-0lining has a cloud" school of thought, by downing playing the significance of a change from a President who's trying to institute Fascism to one who opposes that-- is not to be taken lightly!)
How do you figure? Trump got a lot more votes than in 2016.
Every election, for a long time, is going to be "win or die" for American democracy
Well, you, we, can consider this an extended 'break' from unreality! At least we can see it coming from a far off the next time!
48 % will continue in unreality.
I apologize, Buzz. I didn't mean you and Canadiens in general. I meant ignorant and stupid Americans who don't exercise their right to vote.
I know YOU don't take your rights and privileges lightly.
But I am against mandatory voting. That really bites into my American soul
I just re-read my comment and realized that I had misread yours. Of course you were referring to Americans. I apologize if you feel I insulted you in any way. However, I would love to know Shona1's opinion of mandatory voting. Anyway, this recent American election certainly established that Americans take exercising their right seriously, whether they were right or wrong in their choices.
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If things were really the way this idiot Pavlovitz thinks they are, 50% of the people you meet in life would be exactly like Trump. But, really, it doesn't matter. No matter how many times you guys are told that it isn't about Trump, it's about the policies of the left, you won't listen. It is inconceivable that any right thinking person would disagree with you so therefore everyone who does is a racist, xenophobic, transphobic, homophobic, environmentally challenged hater of democracy. It makes me want to puke.
I'm sick to death of you guys saying Trump is the end of democracy. What, in the last four years, leads to anything like proof? What has Trump forced anyone to do? What freedoms has anyone lost? What American citizen has been put into prison for their political beliefs, other than extremist right wing militia thugs? And I thank God that the FBI is on the ball, there.
That's what scares the hell out of me about you guys. You guys act as if Hitler has come back to life and is turning America into Nazi Germany. It's frigging ridiculous. If anyone doesn't believe the way you do, then Satan himself has crawled out of the depths of hell and infected those of us who don't agree with you. You can't seem to understand that the way you guys act is way, way more fascist than anything happening on the right. There is zero tolerance toward anyone who disagrees with you.
Here's a secret. Most of the people who voted for Trump probably did so because they want to live their lives according to their beliefs. What they see from the left is the imposition of beliefs according to party. You have to believe that because you are white, you're racist. You have to believe that because you believe the word of God, your anti homosexual, transexual, trans whatever. Look at what happens to anyone who tries to stand up to the left. They are doxed. They are sued. They are boycotted. They are fired from their jobs. They are smeared in the media.
I've been on this site from the time Newsvine bit the dust and I was on Newsvine for years. One of the most consistent objections from the left leaning on both that site and this is how the religious want to push and impose their beliefs on the rest of everyone else, but it totally escapes the left that the left is doing exactly that themselves. And you are probably the greatest evangelical of the left on this site.
Here's the deal, It doesn't matter whether Trump gets elected or not. The rest of us will still be here. Biden will not magically turn the rest of the country into Democrats. But you all seem to think that either it will, or worse, it won't matter. If it doesn't matter, that means in the truest fascist sense, your side will attempt impose its will without regard for the other 50% of the country. You have this idea of utopia that doesn't exist, nor can it. I could almost wish that your side actually got all three branches of government so that we can all watch you tear each other to pieces. Unfortunately, the rest of us would suffer with you. Probably more because the one thing the left would need would be a scapegoat to pin all its screwups on.
No, it is the opposite of "ridiculous".
Trump and his followers are very nearly point-for-point duplicates of Hitler and his followers. Your (collective) refusal to see this will literally be the destruction of America as we have known it.
Okay, in what way? Don't just claim it. Prove it.
I see no reason to produce evidence, knowing already that you will reject it. That would be a waste of time.
That's America's fundamental problem. Nearly half the population of the nation is impervious to proof. In this case, the media have been full of proof for the last four years...
That is because you have no evidence because there is none.
What policies are those? Please PICK ONE to discuss.
The list on that is quite long. Transsexuals have lost the right to serve openly in the military. Thousands have lost the right to request asylum under international law.
Lots of people are being prosecuted by the Federal government for what most states would give them a citation for.
The Michigan case was handed to the FBI on a silver platter.
Bullshit Drak, just PLEASE do it cogently and succinctly. Hyperbolic blather is boring.
That's funny because the way I see it, the right is trying to impose it's beliefs on ME and mine.
That's even funnier because since I was about 12, no one has been able to tell me what I have to believe. I don't know any adults who accept being told what they have to believe.
Oh and BTFW, doesn't the word of God have something to say about unrepentant adulterers? You wanted 'THAT GUY' to remain in power.
HOW is 'the left' pushing or imposing their beliefs on you? No hyperbole please. A real belief that you've been forced to internalize against your will.
It sure as hell does matter.
All this time the majority that didn't vote for Trump have been here too Drak.
Interesting and sad that you conflate party with religion.
Maybe it's just me but I haven't seen you decrying Trump and his sycophants doing just that to MORE than than 50% for the last 3+ years.
Pretty fucking ironic coming from a self proclaimed Christian.
You know that the Democrats held the House, Senate and the POTUS not so long ago and that didn't happen right?
Since you've probably memorized the cafeteria version of the bible, perhaps you could turn your attention to some modern American history. The Democrats are the ones that clean up the mess that the GOP makes and are told they aren't doing it fast enough...
Being a white person does not make white people racist—being dismissive of people of color, any other color white included, can make a person prejudiced, and worse, a racist.
There have always been white people in this country, as their have been people of color, who have been on the side of - doing good for all people. And not just good for their tribe or party or organization.
But you likely won't respond to this comment and when you don't; know that I will be okay with that reaction too!
Conservatives don't get to throw out a victim card or file grievances against other legal citizen and their activities in this republic! What is needed in our nation which continues to exist to invite into it a multiplicity of immigrant populations with their cultures and "affections," and inherent birth characteristics, is the capacity to widening its social norms and not simply ask people to "homogenize" themselves out of existence. That is, to become what someone else insist they should be!
This reeks of bitter hurt. A conservative should have had to live like a homosexual from birth in a straight society watching his or her every step from sun up to sun down (facing the chance of a bashing (or not depending on the homosexual's internal fortitude); that same conservative should have been forced off a job they loved because they dared love a person of the same sex and the 'rumor mill' wanted them gone for cause or without cause, that same conservative should have to be "x-ed" from a beloved church or deal with being despised by their family because SOCIETY DOES MORALITY against their way of life . . . . Oh yeah, then after a lifetime of never being able to properly connect with love, because "straight people" can't stand to see you hold hands in public or even imagine what you and your 'partner' do in private - then you might be able to project your bitter hurt on to somebody besides yourselves!
We, the diverse peoples of the "Left" owe you people on the "Right" not a damn thing. The Right has its 'measure' in the world already and its been so for a very, very, very, long time.
The real deal.
Note: One more thing. We, liberals, will never, ever, accept that Donald Trump is the best of humanity, the best of conservatism, or the best of 'merica! The lies set him and those who follow him apart from those categories. We, liberals, will always tell our children to seek honesty, decency, and truth over and above all error, expediency, and oppression found in corrupt men and women.
God ain't worth much and would have to go reinvent God's 'salt', if God can be found out to be a corrupting influence and without savour!
Sadly, Drak is right that TrumpTrueBelievers will be there for the next election.
And if they win in 2024... or ever... they will be far more industrious in dismantling democracy.
From now forward, a single defeat for the (small "d") democrats will likely mean the end of democracy in America.
That's not an exaggeration. Listen to them.
Absolutely brilliant analysis of the seeded article and it’s propaganda. Bravo! 🇺🇸🦅🗽👍👏
That’s for sure!
I think part of the reason for this is the prevalence of the msinformation that Hitler suddenly seized power by a military coup. What many Americans don't realize is that Hitler's coming to power happened gradually.
Hitler was perfectly legally installed as Chancellor. Once in power, he immediately began shredding civil rights, human rights and other such fluff.
Exactly like Trump.
I can not 'fix' the republican party. The republicans and conservatives as a "collective" need to wage internal soul-searching to discover what is lacking inside themselves that they needed a cut-throat businessman to advance any agenda and in the process destroy their party's integrity. Trump is SHIT as a brand , politically wounded, and now someone should open the 'gate' and send in a pack of wolves!
Right now, the Republican Party is manifestly the servant of the ultra-rich.
It is opposed to democracy. It wants a patriarchal plutocracy.
It must be crushed, again and again, until it changes or disappears.
The fact that so many could vote for proven incompetence and insanity saddens me.
Won't be able to look at any stranger quite the same ever again
There was no blue wave, no rejection of Trumpism, in fact even if he doesn’t prevail personally, those who follow after his ideals in political office, national, state, local, are now more numerous than ever.
And yet-- less than half the population voted for Trump....
Approximately half the country were gullible enough to fall for a total con man-- only half were gullible enough to "drink the Kool-Aid"....
The votes are far from being tallied yet. Even at this point Trump has obviously lost
So far right wing fascism taking over democracy is a good thing for you?
less than half the population voted for Joe and the 'Ho
Oh, God, help us! I don't know if I can live with people like you running the show
Trump joins an exclusive club of presidents who have lost their bid for re-election. Most incumbents win. Losing as the incumbent is a rejection by the people given the political advantages of incumbency.
Thank you for your mature and cogent contribution. /s
If there was no rejection of Trump/ism, then why is Trump losing the election? Clearly more people are rejecting Trump. And with good reason too!
There has always been a clear rejection of Trump and Trumpism by the majority of Americans. Sadly, some refuse to accept that those Americans count simply because they live in cities or along the coast. Apparently to some you shouldn't be considered "American" unless you conform to the white Christian patriarchy and live in rural areas.
The proportion will be about 52-48. That's not a massive result.
Maybe not massive. Perhaps not as much as one would have hoped. But it's still enough.
When an incumbent loses that is highly significant. Bush 41 lost but that was due to the splitting of the R vote by Ross Perot. Prior to that we had Carter who lost his bid due to a horrid economy. Ford lost because he pardoned Nixon (and never was elected in the first place). Then we have to go all the way back to Hoover who lost again to a horrid economy (the Great Depression).
Incumbency brings forth the power of name-recognition, more certainty in how the candidate will operate as PotUS, typically no real primary challenges, established leadership of the party, established funding, etc. To lose as an incumbent on one's own merits (unlike Bush 41) is a big deal.
Trump got fired and it was because of what he did (and did not do). I would not downplay the historical significance of this nor would I fault the electorate. They did indeed fire an incumbent.
I mostly agree. Carter lost because of the Hostages, an exceptional event which reinforces your argument.
We don't know how much Trump's mismanagement of Covid cost him. Apparently, a lot of "persons at risk" were unhappy, and that particular demographic has no geographic position - it affects the whole country.
America did indeed repudiate Trump... but narrowly... very narrowly.
The TrumpTrueBelievers are still mobilized, and probably will still be mobilized in four years.
Good luck to us all...
You know, that's what I would think, but I remember seeing some polls and analysis that indicated Perot actually took more votes from Clinton than he did from Bush. Maybe Bush was doomed no matter what. I wonder if he just lacked the charisma to get people excited about him. Both Clinton and Perot were way more entertaining.
Well said. Mega dittos!
Exactly! So perfectly well stated.
Likewise....
We will be mobilized as you suggest and next time will likely due to Trumps age have a different carrier of our America first populist conservative Trumpist message, likely a woman or of a minority community or both. You realize that Trump got more non white voter support than any Republican Presidential candidate since 1960?
that's an inevitable DC parade I'm looking forward to watching live on TV.
The 'Read my lips, no new taxes' was clearly a factor too.
Strange how things have changed. That broken promise arguably contributed to Bush's loss. Seems the PotUS can get away with far worse nowadays with much weaker political repercussions.
apparently the integrity bar is lowered after each republican term in office.
Yeah, but you know the funny thing about that. I think most economists feel like he did the right thing.
But of course it was politically the wrong thing to do. He made a mistake, circumstances changed. If he lost due materially to that then the electorate imposed rather harsh consequences on Bush that they largely ignored with Trump. I am referring to the fact that Trump became the nominee in 2016. We can pile on tons of stuff after that. Times have changed and the bar seems to be much lower.
The other thing to remember though is that Clinton was (is) a very charismatic individual. Clinton-Gore were the younger generation with energy and ideas but with a largely moderate message. There had just been 12 years of Bush (8 as V.P. and 4 as P) and people probably were intrigued by a change.
If an equivalent of Clinton-Gore were running in 2020, Trump would have suffered a crushing defeat.
Ah...there you go again!
So we had a president who lied, cheated, and stole for 4 years. Who had no compassion for anyone-- except himself. Who was the consummate con-artist.
And then, suddenly, in one Swell Foop, we had an election and the majority o fAmerican's decided it was time for total change-- and put Joe Biden in power.
And once again there's the tired old "Whattaboutism"!
What about the fact that there was no Blue wave?
Well, what about the fact that the Presidency and control of the entire Executive branch has turned around 180 degrees? Haven't seem the most recent results-- but apparently the Fems retained control of the House (?). And I don't know yet if republicans were able to maintain their margin of control in the senate..?
C'mon Krish!
A week before the election, we were assuming the Dems would take the Senate. Tons of statehouses.
Poof!
in my world you can worship whatever God you want, go to whatever church you want, smoke what you want, drink what you want, marry whomever you want, and vote for whom you want.
You can also say whatever you want, but have to expect consequences
We stand proudly and tall in support of our President and make no apologies whatsoever for said support. Whether he wins or not, whether he runs again or not, we will never abandon or repudiate what he stands for or did. You all are going to have to live in an America with us because we aren’t going anywhere or changing.
This "we" you speak of is a minority in America.
Presumptuous to abuse the royal we that way...
Just a suggestion...did you ever consider moving to another country? You might be happier there...
One without all the "Fake news" media? And other horrors such as free speech, democracy, and a women's right to choose-- without Big Gubmint telling her what to do?
Perhaps life under Trump's dearly beloved KIm-Jung Il might be paradise for you and your [deleted? (Or even leave you deleted] behind-- just go by yourself...but go!
Or Putin--Ttrump speaks highly of him. Have you ever considered moving to Putin's literal Papradise..in Russia?
Or perhaps In the land ofTtrump's dearest friend-- those remarkable Saudis?
Trump will be going to prison for his many crimes against America.
So you stand for a scum-bag that can't say anything but lies? Says more about you.
He sure won't move to Canada, with its universal single payer health care, strict gun controls, capital punishment banned, woman's choice abortion, support of international organizations such as the WHO, WTO, Paris Accord, and presently governed by a coalition of the Liberal and New Democratic (socialist) parties. Oh, and here's a good one for senior citizens (65+), prescription medications for an annual $100 registration fee, and a small dispensing fee, even if the medication would sell for $1,000. I just read an article by an American who moved to Canada whose wife gave birth there, required a C-section, hospital stay, and the total cost was $260 (because of a private room instead of a double) - compare that to what it would have been in the USA. Nobody goes bankrupt in Canada from required medical care, and nobody has to try to survive without it.
Yep same here...My treatment so far, $20,000 a month drugs, 3 weeks hospital stays, stem cell collection, procedures for putting in ports etc, and monthly treatments, all free...and under the guidance of a Professor in Hematology..Got to be happy with that...
EVERYONE gets treated equally, from a millionaire to a homeless person. I simply can't understand why Americans fight it. Just heard that Biden went 1000 votes ahead in Georgia - best news I've heard all day.
Name one crime.
I will be one of those millions proudly standing right beside you.
don't forget the legal marijuana
Yet you never cease to deny that consideration for those who you oppose Xx. Rather than 'live in an America with US', you're hearts desire is to secede from your state. You thumb your nose at the 'coastal elite' while gleefully accepting the tax dollars that your community needs to build infrastructure and keep you and yours safe from fire and flood. Though THEY aren't 'going anywhere or changing', you continue to sneer at the thought of their very existence.
So my question to you is WHY do you insist that others meet a standard that you have proven incapable of meeting yourself?
Felony campaign finance violations when he paid $130,000 to Stormy Daniels during the campaign who his personal lawyer has already gone to jail for and he is an 'unnamed coconspirator'.
Felony campaign finance violations related to a $10 million donation he made to the campaign at the same time he received a suspicious $21 million payment from a hotel he co-owns with a political supporter.
Felony obstruction of justice. Over 1,000 former federal prosecutors stated that if Trump were not president, his conduct as described by Mueller would “result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice.”
Felony bank, insurance and tax fraud from intentionally misrepresenting assets, higher for bank loans and lower for insurance purposes and taxes.
thank-you for that pushback
I live in a red state and surrounded by religious people who pray all day and expect you to pray all day with them. I've accepted it. That's what mature, responsible people do.
Should never have been illegal.
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Have you considered the possibility that with a far-left Socialist like Biden in charge...you might be happier living in some other country?
(I hear Putin's Russia is lovely this time of year
Then why did the vote for Joe and the 'Ho then?
And Ho-Ho-Ho a Very Merry Christmas to you as well!
Thread 4 removed for off topic at seeders request. [ph]
Rural fly over heartland, small town and exurb America stands tall with Trump and makes absolutely no apologies for supporting him and will win or lose continue to support him and the America First ideals he promoted. We reject bi coastal urban America in our lives and will forever more defy people from those places.
As if anyone notices or cares!
I'm humbled to be in the cyber-presence of such a fine Christian example. Amen?
amen. apparently they only forgive each other.
Why post that bullshit when you've admitted ad nauseam that you're more than willing to mooch off of 'coastal urban America' Xx?
well, since you are trying to draw us into a series of "Whattaboudisms"-- whaddabout the fact that a mentally unbalanced Republican president was just votes out by a majority of Americans-- sand whaddaboud the fact that he was replaced by a much more sensible moderate like Joe Biden!
(From"hardscrabble" Pennsylvania yet?!??)
Well, unfrotunately there's no cure for "Stuck on Stupid"!
I digress. Nobody is wrong about America. America as a nation is fine, the same as it always was.
However, America is suffering the effects of a decades long domestic right wing attack fostered and funded by foreign entities. The proof is this; Rush Limbaugh received The Medal of Freedom----and the US abandoned our Kurdish allies during our decades long struggle against radical extremism. These are but two items from a list of hundreds and America as a whole did not bat an eye. Propaganda is effective when used under protection of 'Lie Speech is Free Speech'.
Any idea what "foreign enemy" that might be?
'Tis a mystery indeed....
The biggest foreign enemy of the USA is the Communist Party of China by far. We have no enemy greater than that brutal evil empire. The next biggest enemy we have is Iran.
Why do you consider the CCP to be America's greatest enemy?
Are you worried that China is going to invade America, the greatest military power in the world that China cannot possibly defeat?
Are you worried that China is going to become the world's number one economy, overtaking the USA?
How is China a threat to the USA, or to the people of the USA?
Do America's soybean farmers consider China to be an enemy?
If China is making friends around the world, and America is not, does that make China an enemy?
Has China not purchased enough products from the USA during 2020 to satisfy you?
China's domestic affairs are none of your business, unless they are a threat to the USA.
.
Ummmm... Buzz??
Are you really trying to use facts to change a TrumpTrueBeliever's mind?
The Perfect Leader has said. "China bad!". The topic is closed.
I'm waiting for his answer...
...
...
... patience... ... ...
Oh-- so now your an expert on "enemies"?
Not so long ago I would've said that who the biggest enemy of America is-- but as a result of recent events the majority of Americans made a wise choice-- and voted him out of office!
(Elections have consequences)
Nice find! Less creative types would have to resort to "the usual"
: 
(Not that there's anything wrong with that)
It just struck me what the reason was that the NT member with multiple names refused to answer - i.e. why he considers China to be America's number one enemy. It's because he knows China is responsible for his Pied Piper POTUS's loss of his presidency. Had it not been for the virus that allegedly was sent to America from China, there were good reasons why had it not happened he would have been re-elected, such as a growing economy, low unemployment, incumbency, professional showmanship, no serious pandemic to negligently mishandle causing hundreds of thousands of deaths proving his incompetent leadership, and so it was the VIRUS and its fallout that caused his defeat. The Democrats, Pelosi, Biden and Harris should THANK China for their win.
Simple logic would demolish this line of argument in seconds.
Then again... the NT member with multiple names...
A logical person may well know that my theory is illogical, but if a person is normally illogical, then he would come up with or agree with an illogical concept, would he not? One needs to fight fire with fire.
But it DOES makes sense to expect an illogical person who thinks illogically to understand something illogical that is presented to him. That seems logical to me.
Sheesh-- talkabout oxymorons!
Or, in fact, morons of any ilk)
It's not inexplicable. All you have to do is ask people instead of assuming the worst in them.
That's silly. There's no fascism. If there were fascism, we wouldn't have just had an election (or another one in 2018). The president wouldn't be repeatedly thwarted by Congress or the Supreme Court. The news media wouldn't be free to be as critical of the president as they are.
Fascism doesn't preclude elections, legislations, courts or the media, it controls them. That's exactly what Trump is trying to do right now. Did you SEE his 'speech' today?
That hasn't happened, so far. I don't see Trump controlling any of those things in a way I would consider unconstitutional. So, I'm still not seeing the fascism.
No. I don't have patience for most speeches, and his are particularly hard to sit through.
That speech was representative of Mussolini or Mudoro, certainly not a good look in America,
let alone in the White House.
Well gee, perhaps you're not seeing the fascism because you 'don't have the patience'.
Perhaps no such thing. I give you specific reasons why there is not fascism. You ignore them because reasoning destroys this silly practice of equating American politicians to Hitler and the Nazis (or to Mussolini for the people who recognize that others think the comparison is silly and imagine that they sound more nuanced by going for Mussolini instead).
In the end, that's the worst that happens. It's a look. And like many looks, it goes out of style.
Just reflecting your own statements.
Yet those 'specific reasons' were false, as I clearly stated and you haven't refuted.
No Tacos!, I'm not ignoring anything, including the fact that you are trying to conflate MY comments with those of other members. I didn't equate an American politician to ANYONE and we both know that.
So it's clear that you are again devolving to unfounded personal accusation, though on a much shorter fuse than usual.
No, they are true. And here is where we differ in style. I will support my position with examples and not by simply repeating the same claim “clearly” or otherwise. You said fascism controls
It is easy enough to demonstrate that Trump does not control these things. And so if control of these things means that fascism exists, then logically, lack of that control means the fascism does not exist.
In 2018, we had elections for Congress, in which Democrats had success versus what the president wanted, which we can safely assume would have been overwhelming Republican control of both houses. Instead, the Democrats took control of the House. He exercised no control to change that outcome. Democrats have had other successes at the state and local level without interference from Trump. Again in 2020, we are having federal elections, and while Trump objects to the result, such objection is not fascism. Politicians dispute election results all the time. It’s common. Trump will pursue his remedy in the courts and not through force.
Which leads me out of order to the courts. Trump as president has seen issues he cares about adjudicated in the courts. Sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses. No control; no fascism.
Legislation. It should be obvious (if not, Google it) that Trump and Congress disagree on legislation all the time. Even now, they have been arguing about stimulus. A fascist ruler controls his legislature according to you. He doesn’t argue with it. He CERTAINLY is not impeached by it, as Trump was.
And the media. Are you seriously going to claim that Trump controls the media? I hope not.
Careful of hypocrisy:
You:
Also you (earlier) @ 6.1.4:
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Totally NOT!
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So Sorry, it looks like I won the "state of that comment" 8 to 1.
LoL
This is excellent. But its an autopsy, and the patient isn't dead yet.
Is there a way forward?
Bob, it should have been a landslide - it wasn't.
Yes. Biden got more votes than anyone in American history... but will probably eke out a narrow win.
The simple fact that we must now recognize is that very nearly half of all Americans want a dictator.
They WANT a dictator? But a dictator would do everything he could to stop anyone from voting for his opposition, he would have control of the highest court, he would be a liar and repeat lies over and over again so they would be believed, (Didn't Goebbels say that?) He would never take the blame for anything he did wrong or badly........wait a second, this is starting to sound familiar.
Yup...
Let's consider this. More Americans actually voted this time around. That's something to celebrate, isn't it?
Have you witnessed the right here on NT? They want someone to tell them what church to go to but they don't want someone telling them to wear a mask. However, if trmp had told them to wear a mask, they wouldn't bitch about it and just do it. He wouldn't even have to tell them why they have to wear one.
It would have been s-o-o-o easy for him to lead the country in the right direction. It's incomprehensible.
If only we had better candidates to vote for.
I think Biden will have a unique presidency. There are two overriding factors. One is his age , at 78 he will almost surely be a one term president. Secondly, his party does not control Congress to the extent that he can get legislation passed into law. His party has only one chamber of Congress.
I am totally expecting Biden to form a working partnership with Mitch McConnell in which they will horsetrade for programs and initiatives . In exchange for senate support for a Democratic policy, Biden will offer McConnell assurances one of the Republican policies will pass through the House. Nancy Pelosi will have to largely bite her tongue, at least through the first two years of Biden's term at which point there will be more Senate elections.
First up will be the covid relief legislation so long delayed. I expect a Biden McConnell compromise will be reached very quickly.
That is my hope as well. The best case scenario given what we had to work with is Biden as PotUS to restore dignity to the office but with a partisan check in Congress to temper change. I am in favor of four years of simply doing maintenance. No big changes, just keep the ship afloat and do cleanup and repairs. I am also good with starting to change direction in areas like renewable energy ... encouraging continued progress so that these sources naturally displace less desirable sources.
In the meantime, one can only hope 2024 will deliver inspiring candidates that people will vote FOR.
I see McConnell doing exactly as he did with Obama. Opposing everything.
That isn't clear yet John.
That is likely. Not certainty, but it would not be surprising.
If a President Biden seeks modest initiatives (those that are palatable by the opposition) then I can see things working as JR described. If, on the other hand, Biden seeks aggressive initiatives (tapping into the Sanders camp) then we all expect the Senate to block same.
Probably.
Biden will have a dilemma. Either please McConnell or please the Democrats (not just the left wing - all of them).
IMNAAHO, dropping to a program acceptable to McConnell would be a death sentence for the Dems.
Do you actually think that it won't require 'big changes' to clean up and repair the damage that's been done by Trump?
After Nixon, a plethora of legislative changes were made in an attempt to curtail like abuses. If we have learned anything from Trump, those changes have to be hardened and more need to be codified so that 'norms' become laws that have repercussions including prosecution.
There are also many 'agency' policies that need to be revoked and outlawed in the future. The CBP 100 mile 'policy' is one such.
We also need to codify Obergefell and Roe v. Wade. PERIOD, full stop. Americans can no longer allow their rights to be revoked based on the motivation of states who exist in a different era than the vast majority of the country. That would be a 'big change'.
Asset forfeiture is another state and federal issue that needs to be addressed. That would also be a 'big change'. IMHO, much of it is unconstitutional.
TiG is certainly right in one respect. Trump's Executive Orders did a great deal of damage in many directions. It will take months (years?) to clean up that mess.
In many cases, Trump's EOs were toothless and irrelevant. A stroke of the pen revokes them, done and done. Those that that did harm, did GREAT harm, financially, spiritually and morally. Those can be revoked in the same way and the Agencies can pretty quickly revert back to the previous [Obama era] policy BUT you and TiG are right that it will take time to heal the damage.
What the CBP, DHS and HHS have been doing is an example of the damage that will take years to heal, if it ever can be.
And none of those things cost money
Terms like 'big' are vague, that is why I qualified my sentence:
By 'big' I was referring to major initiatives such as a new national healthcare system (or major extensions to Obamacare), aggressive shutdown of fossil fuel production, 'free' higher level education, substantial tax increases, etc. No big spending / borrowing. No major changes in direction.
For the next four years I would be content if the federal government simply cleaned things up and kept the ship afloat. If President Biden acted as a healing interim to 2024 that would be a fine accomplishment in my eyes for a (likely decidedly) one-term PotUS. If Biden could focus his attention on bringing the USA more together and helping Congress to lessen the insane levels of partisanship then he would have helped clear a path for the next PotUS. A noble and very helpful accomplishment.
I am for a largely laissez-faire federal government focused on mending wounds and headed by an honorable adult as PotUS until we hit 2024.
The art of 'bringing people together' lives between those two extremes. Life is never so cut & dried as you just described. There exists myriad avenues for finding practical, useful common ground. Typically these would be modest accomplishments and that is all I (personally) expect/desire from a president Biden.
Biden prides himself on finding ways to make headway in spite of partisan divides. I hope he is up to the task because that alone could be a very good accomplishment for a one-term PotUS.
Modest changes certainly seems reasonable. Although, I suspect there are those who will resist any change or initiative, possibly out of spite. But some necessary changes might require a more aggressive approach.
Partisan politics in D.C. is currently insane so Biden certainly faces a challenge.
Perhaps such partisanship is what is most wrong with America? But yes, dealing with it is certainly a challenge.
Sure, some can simply be canceled. But in many cases involving the EPA or Interior, for example, contracts have been signed. Unraveling them will take time.
Remember McConnell's scorched earth policy with Obama. I see no reason to expect anything else.
McConnell has the whip hand, and he's ruthless.
You used the characterization and the part of your comment that you highlight in blue doesn't qualify that characterization.
So by 'big' you seem to mean just about everything in Biden's platform, which his supporters voted for.
Your position relegates Biden to a placeholder for the a vague and unknown future which you insist he need not clarify by acting on his own vision.
After everything he has gone through to vanquish Trump, it would be dishonorable to ask him to act merely as a calming stable figurehead.
Anyone who has read Biden's policy documents should be able to find at least ONE 'major initiative' to pull for. Hell, the GOP has insisted for over a decade that they were all for an infrastructure bill. It's a 'big spending/borrowing' major initiative BUT it CAN create millions of jobs and an investment in the countries future. There are thousands of projects that NEED to be done and every state could benefit. If they connect construction contracts with skills training programs, it could be a twofer, win win.
There NEEDS to be a tax increase at least back to were they were pre-Trump, tax code reform AND a removal of the SSI cap.
Since the ACA debacle, that hasn't been true. A bipartisan Congress 'negotiated' for months and over 100 GOP Amendments were adopted, NOT ONE GOP Senator voted for the bill. They did not act in good faith then and have mostly failed to do so since then.
Yes, Dulay, I used 'big' and then I qualified my meaning in the same sentence by describing what would not be 'big'. Seems pretty clear to me but it is also not something to argue about.
Is that what I mean?
Look, I recognize that you have other desires of Biden. I knew that before you wrote a single word. I gave you my desires.
I do not hold the position that it is impossible for Biden to make modest advancements during his term. He has almost 50 years of experience and has a reputation of not being an uber-partisan. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and will cheer any progress he makes towards improving the hostile partisan climate in D.C.
This is not the first time I have seen this observation this week, but I don't get why people think it's important. There are more Americans than ever, so naturally the winning candidate would get more votes than ever. If you take away Biden's vote count, then Trump got more votes than anyone in American history - more than either he or Hillary got in 2016, and more than Obama got in 2012 or even 2008.
That's not an achievement, it's just population growth. It's also a testament to the enthusiasm evident in turnout.
You know, the opposition almost always says that about whoever is in power at the moment. What people want is someone who will get done the things they want done. Nobody (ok, probably very few people) actually wants a dictator.
That might be a smart way to go. Sometimes we hear politicians say that we should just try to move forward on the things we can agree on. I would love to see a bit of that. I think it could bring us together in a way we haven't seen for a few decades. Lately, it seems like every time a different party takes power, they have big plans to change everything. That kind of thing is bound to piss people off unless it's a big change a significant majority have been wanting.
A good legal team can take care of much of that since Trump usurped environmental protections for much of them. For those left, actually holding companies to the letter of the law often has an effect on the profitability of raping and pillaging. When you have regulators checking water and air quality, boundary lines, building specifications and waste disposal, watchdogs on the ground can be a real pain in the ass.
One of the places were we can put a lot of people to work is by hiring inspectors and regulators to oversee the quality of our food, water and air. We need lab workers and scientists at the EPA, FDA, NHI and the CDC. We need to almost double the employees across the country at the VA in almost every job category. All of that is money well spent and can create millions MORE good paying jobs.
Seems to me a president should exploit his strengths and minimize areas where s/he is weak. One would suspect that Biden only plans on one term. If so, then he should be looking at what he can accomplish in four years. Biden has expressed the desire to unify the nation. Well, that is impossible. But he certainly can make substantial progress given where we are. Just by being himself (versus the divisive Trump) he will help in this regard. But he can do much more by tapping into his near ½ century experience as a federal politician and his proclaimed strength of being able to get people to find common ground and make progress.
If Biden truly has these strengths (no reason to not think so) then I would root him on. Reestablish the example of what a PotUS should be like. Bring dignity back to the office. Govern for ALL of the people. Ensure the ½ of the electorate who did not vote for him have no real cause for alarm and give modest but favorable returns to the ½ who voted him into office.
Pave the road so that in 2024, the USA is in a better psychological state and is less divisive and not so uber-partisan. If Biden could accomplish that in a material way I would consider his one-term presidency to be an historical success. And if he could make progress toward fiscal responsibility that would be extremely well received (not going to happen, but I can dream).
After 4 years of some of the most 'uber-partisan' politics in our history, flipping the direction of that partisanship is necessary to 'clean up and repair the damage' done.
Because of Biden's experience, I hope that he recognizes from the start that McConnell has no intention of making a good faith effort to help the country.
The simple act of putting competent people in cabinet positions who can do their jobs efficiently and effectively instead of hiring people with the intent to dismantle and demolish things like the EPA would go a long way to improve on the current situation. It's something that can be reversed within one term.
I agree. And I think that is one of Biden's strengths. I expect that he will make progress in this area.
I suspect Biden knows McConnell all too well. That is an important foundation for laying a strategy for how to govern in the climate he has inherited.
I agree. Biden can do quite a bit to improve the situation just with low-hanging fruit. I would recommend that too. Get some early easy wins and show the American people that President Biden is making progress that most everyone would consider to be positive.
Generating enthusiasm is an achievement.
Certainly. My point is that this will consume time and energy.
Yeah, I agree with that, but I see the vote count being treated (at least to my ear) as if Biden is the most overwhelmingly popular presidential candidate ever, riding into the White House on a clear mandate. That is definitely not true. This has been one of the closest elections in our history.
Certainly. That would be good for his base. I doubt it would do him much good with the TrumpTrueBelievers, who will still be glued to Fox... which won't report anything favorable to Biden.
Biden must connect very directly to a wide section of the public. He must short-circuit Fox.
That will be easy.
That will be impossible.
Nominate the right Agency heads and give them marching orders. Biden need not micromanage if he hires 'the best people'. The hard part will be to get them confirmed.
IMHO, if McConnell blockades Biden's 'moderate cabinet nominees, Biden should just install 'ACTING' heads that are hard core progressives and tell McConnell to pound sand.
The Democrats have a deep bench of qualified people to choose from. They will have to get on the ball and try to coerce and/or cajole some of the career people to come back and hire a bunch more to fill the giant gaps that Trump has left in the civil services. The DOJ, FBI and State Dept. have been decimated and their moral SUCKS. Any competent executive level manager can head an Agency that has good career people as it's bedrock. Again, hire quality people, give them marching orders and let them do their jobs.
Yeah, I've made note of that a few times already....
Wow what a fantastic comment posting system NT has. My reply to Trout's comment is separated by only 37 other comments.
That would be excellent advice for M.M. to follow, if he had any intention of preserving any credibility for the Republican Party.
Are you saying that something is wrong? Comments are ordered chronologically within a thread.
If you're so sure that Biden is a one-term POTUS, then there is an opening for Trump to do one of the things he has threatened, and that is to return and run again in 2024. The D's will have to have a charismatic candidate who can gain more votes than the pied piper's mesmerized flocks who may NEVER give up their support. Now I know why Christians continue to adore Jesus.
Not WRONG - there is a code tracking system - just confusing and inconvenient. My problem is probably unique, as would be anyone else who is on the other side of the world from the vast majority of posters, in that we sleep during different times.
Well one can only hope Trump is distracted by then.
Every comment is assigned a sequential number within the thread. If you reply to a comment early up in the thread, your reply will be tagged with the hierarchic ID of that comment (e.g. replied to Buzz of the Orient @7.1.48). If you hold your cursor over that ID, the system will present the content of the comment for your convenience. If you click on that ID, the system will scroll to that comment for your convenience.
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Buy a vowel.
Yeah, by the likes of Captain Hadley who said in The Shawshank Redemption:
That's what I tried to say, but the point still is that by the time someone reads my reply, they won't remember what I replied to, so I guess I'll just have to quote them and reply in my comment.
They can place their mouse pointer over the "replied to ..." ID and the comment that you replied to will pop up. Hover your mouse pointer over the @7.1.55 after "replied to Buzz of the Orient" in this message and you will see the comment to which I replied.
I don't think so.
If Biden speaks directly to the people (no interviewer), on the other networks, Fox would have to go along.
I agree. Biden will still need to know what he is signing. That will consume time.
That's why it's a good idea to quote the post you're answering. That's a lot clearer for us third parties.
The (clever) cursor-hover trick does not work in Android.
If others are as computer-illiterate as I am, they probably won't know what TiG has just told me to do, so I think I'll cater to the lowest possible denominator (which is no longer me, because now I know to hover my cursor...)
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As the senate should.
How does that work on an Apple phone or tablet?
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Good Lord, XX!
I wonder if that's why we can't get along with China! We can't spell a name that's just two letters long...
That is a shame. On an iPhone you can click once on the ID and it will provide a popup showing the content of the comment to which you replied. The click-once gesture is equivalent to a mouse-hover on a personal computer.
see TiG@7.1.70
They may 'cover' Biden's statement but then they will proceed to undercut that message with fabricated bullshit.
Fox has done that and IS doing that now. Fox has had HOURS of 'phone interviews' with Trump, allowing him to spew utter delusion for YEARS. During the 2016 and 2020 campaigns, Fox 'donated' HOURS of free prime time access to Trump. The idea that they will do a 180 degree change from their ideology is fantasy. I don't see 'Fox and Friends' dedicating an hour of their show to a chat with President Biden. The idea that Hannity would have phone chat with President Biden is laughable.
The difference being that Trump and Fox were allies, while Fox and Biden will probably be adversaries.
Definitely!
As anyone familiarwith the with the rise of Naziism (or for that matter any totsalitarian gov't) would know....
The way forward is to 'Follow the Money'. Dirty money tarnishes.
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it's going to be yuge fun watching the trump family garage sale take place in the near future ...
I am not at all surprised by the percentage of people who voted against democracy and for authoritarianism by voting for Trump AND republicans. Fear is a powerful motivator and hate can be a uniter in a common cause even if the cause would be self destructive.
I knew exactly who these people were 4 years ago and they've been confirming it every day since. Donald Trump is exactly who they are. I was amazed at the gullibility of some in trying to appeal to their humanity or Christianity (lol). I hope people are finally able to see these people cannot be reasoned with and we need to stop trying to. They are who they are.
It's time to crush their white nationalist movements and their conspiracy theories.
Yes.
They have shown that they do not want dialog. They deny reality to "believe" their Leader.
Over and over and over...
It is high time to drop the hammer.