The Case Against Masks for Children
By: Marty Makary and H. Cody Meissner (WSJ)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Do masks reduce Covid transmission in children? Believe it or not, we could find only a single retrospective study on the question, and its results were inconclusive. Yet two weeks ago the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sternly decreed that 56 million U.S. children and adolescents, vaccinated or not, should cover their faces regardless of the prevalence of infection in their community. Authorities in many places took the cue to impose mandates in schools and elsewhere, on the theory that masks can't do any harm.
That isn't true. Some children are fine wearing a mask, but others struggle. Those who have myopia can have difficulty seeing because the mask fogs their glasses. (This has long been a problem for medical students in the operating room.) Masks can cause severe acne and other skin problems. The discomfort of a mask distracts some children from learning. By increasing airway resistance during exhalation, masks can lead to increased levels of carbon dioxide in the blood. And masks can be vectors for pathogens if they become moist or are used for too long.
In March, Ireland's Department of Health announced that it won't require masks in schools because they "may exacerbate anxiety or breathing difficulties for some students." Some children compensate for such difficulties by breathing through their mouths. Chronic and prolonged mouth breathing can alter facial development. It is well-documented that children who mouth-breathe because adenoids block their nasal airways can develop a mouth deformity and elongated face.
The possible psychological harm of widespread masking is an even greater worry. Facial expressions are integral to human connection, particularly for young children, who are only learning how to signal fear, confusion and happiness. Covering a child's face mutes these nonverbal forms of communication and can result in robotic and emotionless interactions, anxiety and depression. Seeing people speak is a building block of phonetic development. It is especially important for children with disabilities such as hearing impairment.
The adverse developmental effects of requiring masks for a few weeks are probably minor. We can't say that with any confidence when the practice stretches on for months or years.
What about the risk of Covid, which mask mandates are intended to ameliorate? The CDC reports that for the week of July 31 the rate of hospitalization with Covid for children 5 to 17 was 0.5 per million, which would amount to roughly 25 patients. The CDC acknowledges that not all of these children were in the hospital for Covid: Viral testing at admission is routine, even for patients who have no Covid symptoms. Children who do develop Covid symptoms are at minimal risk of “long Covid,” according to a Lancet study published Aug. 3: “Almost all children had symptom resolution by 8 weeks, providing reassurance about long-term outcomes.”
Children have been known to transmit Covid, but far less often than adults do. A North Carolina study conducted before vaccines were available found not a single case of student-to-teacher transmission when 90,000 students were in school. The faster-spreading Delta variant has emerged since—but many teachers, parents and children 12 and over have also been vaccinated.
The CDC’s mask decrees are perversely permissive as well as needlessly strict. Cloth masks aren’t nearly as effective as N95 respirators, but the CDC directives ignore the distinction. “Many of the face cloth coverings that people wear are not very effective in reducing any of the virus movement in or out,” epidemiologist Michael Osterholm, who served on the Biden transition team’s Covid task force, told CNN last week. In July, after coming under attack for similar comments, Mr. Osterholm wrote a 5,000-word clarification seeking to dispel “notions that I’m ‘anti-mask.’ ”
We have been encouraging Americans to wear masks since the beginning of the pandemic. But special attention should be paid to the many children who struggle with masks. Public-health officials claim to base their decisions and guidance on science, but there’s no science behind mask mandates for children. A new research study by one of us (Dr. Makary) and his Johns Hopkins colleagues found that of the $42 billion the National Institutes of Health spent on research last year, less than 2% went to Covid clinical research and not a single grant was dedicated to studying masks in children.
In the absence of data, mask mandates have ignited a culture war. Yet if masks do reduce asymptomatic transmission in children, they likely rank no higher than fourth among mitigation strategies that schools can adopt, after ventilation, distancing and dividing students into small groups known as pods. Mandatory vaccination of all teachers and other adults who lack natural immunity—which teachers unions have vigorously opposed—would also help.
Any child who wants to wear a mask should be free to do so. But forcing them to make personal, health and developmental sacrifices for the sake of adults who refuse to get immunized is abusive. Before we order the masking of 56 million Americans who are too young to vote and don’t have a lobby, let’s see data showing the benefits and weigh them against the long-term harm.
Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, editor-in-chief of Medpage Today and author of “The Price We Pay”. Dr. Meissner is chief of pediatric infectious diseases at Tufts Children’s Hospital and served on the Food and Drug Administration’s external advisory panel for the Covid-19 vaccines.
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Vaccinate the teachers and leave the kids alone.
Vaccinate both and everyone else and we won't have to worry about masks.
There in no vaccine for those under 12!
Unfortunately, not yet. Hopefully that changes. In the meantime, kids should wear masks to protect themselves and others. Kids 13 & up should get the vaccine. Simple common sense Vic.
We hope so in case there is another variant that might endanger the very young. Biden should have done a better job getting everyone vaccinated.
Children seem to be more prone to contracting the Delta variant than other strains. Who knows what other variants might emerge because people sdeem to prefer to be walking petri dishes.
Biden can't force people to get the vaccine. And too many people refuse to get the vaccine. And Trump should have done a better job at containing the spread of the virus during the initial outbreak.
Did you read the article? Why say things that are not backed by "science?"
According to Harvard Health Publishing of the Harvard Medical School (Aug. 2, 2021), children can contract covid, but usually experience less severe symptoms. But an after effect of covid is the development of multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C), which can be deadly. The CDC still recommends vaccination for kids 12 & older.
The CDC also reports that children can transmit covid in school settings, which means they can become infected.
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics (July 26, 202), there have been 4,198,296 total cases of Covid in children, with an increase in recent weeks. This makes sense, as the Delta variant is much more contagious. Dr. Fauci says children are more likely to get infected with the Delta variant because it's more transmissable. The rise in child covid cases affirms what Dr. Fauci says. Dr. Francis Collins, head of the NIH, also states covid is affecting children more.
You should know by now Vic that I always go by what the science and the scientists (based on the evidence) say.
Hopefully they are getting vaccinated.
I don't see why anyone wouldn't get the vaccine. And yet, there are many who refuse to. It boggles the mind.
What is Biden doing to promote getting the vaccine in the Hispanic and African American communities? Why do democrats advance the lie that conservatives are the ones not getting vaccinated when both minority communities have higher % rates of vaccine reluctance?
Aside from the fact that your reply doesn't exactly address what I said, perhaps you missed the part where I said EVERYONE should get the vaccine. I'm not playing partisan nonsense by separating into ethnic groups.
As I recall, it has always been kids that brought the flu home from school.
Kids have always been nothing but traveling bags of viral infections.
The younger they are vaccinated against COVID the better.
No better time than the present for them to learn about public masking.
Yes, and now it's mostly adults which are passing Covid on to kids.
Agreed. Hopefully trials will lead to FDA approval for that.
Also agreed.
One thing you can be sure of-- when there actually is a proven vaccine for children-- the same people who are arguing against masks for children now-- will be arguing against vaccinating kids when the vaccine is developped!
Unfortunately, you are probably correct.
There is no evidence of kids spreading covid to sdults in the family. Cloth masks are useless and the effects of masks that are negative on children far outweigh any positive impact.
Demonstrably false. Masks are proven to be effective. Children have already died from Covid. Not to mention we're seeing long term health effects after infection, especially multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C). Look it up! Children might present with mild or no symptoms of Covid. But they are still capable of spreading it. So your statement is either based on complete ignorance of facts, or a flat out demonstrable lie! Which is it?
All of Israel's current problems stem from infected unvaccinated children getting ill
and spreading a more virulent variant to their
vaccinated parents, caregivers and teachers who must then quarantine.
Only about 10% of the adults get sick enough to be hospitalized. 10% of those have died.
The CDC reports that for the week of July 31 the rate of hospitalization with Covid for children 5 to 17 was 0.5 per million, which would amount to roughly 25 patients.
Well that can't be right. We have people on this very board who are screaming and showing articles about childrens hospitals being overloaded. And we see news reports of children being airlifted hundreds of miles because the local ICU is full...
per 100,000 ... not per 1,000,000.
The CDC has it wrong? Maybe you are right.
So the CDC is full of misinformation. Maybe you are right.
Look again Vic, the graph reads rates per 100,000.
Your link is to the COVID-NET page in which the first paragraph identifies the 14 participating states but not the 100 participating counties in the USA.
It has nothing to do with what is happening in Israel today.
That link gives data per 100,000, NOT per half a million Vic. It shows 29 cases for under 17 for July 24th and 31 for Aug. 7.
BTW, Florida stopped reporting the ages of new Covid cases. Wonder why...
Why for the love of all that is good and innocent, our children and grandchildren, is an abundance of caution,
too fucking much to ask for? Why is it a Constitutional crisis to protect the most vulnerable among us.
My father died in 2001 at the age of 72 and never got over the fact that there was no cure for scarlet fever in the 1930s
which killed his 8 yr old sister.
I cannot imagine the pain of losing a child, sibling or grandchild to this virus with all of miracle drugs and equipment we have.
Really? Then why isn't the Teacher's Union demanding that all their teachers get vaccinated?
So, do I understand that you are now in favor of a mandate?
There are 15 major teachers unions, look them up and ask them. Many are about to change their tunes.
The Teacher's Union?
Do you actually believe there is only one?
Teachers Union, leave the kids alone!
Hopefully a future President DeSantis will break the back of the Teacher's union.
It’s a possibility. It needs to happen.
Yup and the ACLU with it. Do to them what they did to that poor woman in RI - sue them individually!
Great idea Vic. /s
Vaccinated teachers can STILL get Covid, be asymtomatic, and infect kids.
'...we could find only a single retrospective study on the question, and its results were inconclusive.'
Were studies found suggesting that the virus utilizes discretionary powers based on a host's age? If so, how conclusive were the results found?
The right has shifted their line of attack from "we dont want to get vaccinated , because "freedom" " to "we dont want to wear masks because there havent been enough vaccinations."
Sound crazy? Thats because it is.
Was that the right or a few Libertarians? How about all the minorities that don't trust the vaccine?
Sound crazy?
What sounds crazy is that stupid fucking Joe had a vaccine left to him and he couldn't get everyone vaccinated.
Sounds like the same amount as several.
The predicate of John's comment was 'because freedom' Vic, NOT because we 'don't trust the vaccine'. See the difference?
Sounds like you are advocating for a country wide vaccine mandate Vic. Is that your posit?
The writers of this article should come down to Florida and visit the hospitals here and talk to real doctors. Currently, we have 135 children in the hospital some in ICU and some on ventilators.
Around 1,000 kids a week are contacting Covid and school will be starting here in a few weeks, children under 12 cannot be vaccinated at this point so masks are the best way to keep them safe which is common sense but it seems that common sense is missing in the authors of this article.
Why?
is common sense
Common sense whould have been Joe Biden mandating that everyone must get vaccinated about a month ago!
To meet with the actual doctors in the Children's Hospitals throughout Florida and actually learn the facts.
Whatever you do Vic, don't let facts get in your way.
The facts are these:
The CDC reports that for the week of July 31 the rate of hospitalization with Covid for children 5 to 17 was 0.5 per million, which would amount to roughly 25 patients.
In Florida appx 1,000 kids per week are coming down with COVID, as I stated in my post above at least 135 are hospitalized some in ICU and some on ventilators.
Those are the facts in the epicenter of covid right now, avoid them all you want but I sure as hell believe our local doctors/hospitals more than anything you think you know.
So what you are saying is that Joe didn't get the country vaccinated before the new variant got here. Unfortunately, there is nop vaccine for those under 12.
Cut the BS, Vic. Biden has done everything that he can to get people to get vaccinated, short of a nationwide mandate.
Well duh, that's why masks are important for school kids.
He hasn't done shit!
The WSJ can't read a graph and neither can you.
Brilliant retort and again totally factless.
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How can you possibly say that Biden has not done anything to get people vaccinated?? Right off the bat, simply speaking as PotUS and encouraging people to get vaccinated is something that Biden has repeatedly done and you can verify it. That is leadership, a key individual function of the PotUS.
What motivates you to declare that Biden has done nothing whatsoever to get people vaccinated when you know that is not true?
No. They don't. They clearly report a number exactly ten times as high, thank you for linking to it.
Never trust a journalist while they're attempting math.
Oh, come on! He imported tens of thousands of covid positive illegal aliens into the country and resettled them in red communities all over the south and Midwest.
That is why I try to avoid citing journalistic media sources and instead prefer actual scientific sources when possible.
You kinda have to. Some of these people are idiots.
Before you know it, you end up with shit like "Michael Bloomberg spent enough on the campaign that he could have given every American $1m instead". Well....yeah...if "$1 million dollars" is journo-speak for "$1.66", which was the real number.
Some? I'd say most. That's been the problem all along.
Your link is to the COVID-NET page in which the first paragraph identifies the 14 participating states but not the 100 participating counties in those states.
It is a CDC tool, not the whole picture and only represents 10% of Americans.
It's like a poll looking for trends...just a 10% slice of the real data.
No matter how large of a font you use in bold, your math conclusion is still wrong.
Your own chart states 100,000. So why are you repeating this after it was already pointed out.
I remember that! Typical msm!
Common sense whould have been Joe Biden mandating that everyone must get vaccinated about a month ago!
Well, perhaps I'm wrong, but since the first outbreaks of Covid, you have spent considerable time and effort attempting to debunk the seriousness of Covid-- and also trying also sort of tactics trying to paint a negative picture of the things that will slow and /or prevent its spread-- particularly masks and vaccinations.
So I wondering why you now claim that all those things you were bashing you now call common sense-- even criticizing Biden because he hasn't mandated the very things you've been vociferously opposing for months!
Do you actually believe people aren't aware of what you been doing here?
Nonsense-- he dona a tremendous amount/
And how do I know that?
@ ways:
1. By reading lots of news reports.
2.. And for months I've been reading seeds and comments here by you mentioning all he's done...and supposedly you weren't lying when you mentioned all he's done! )(which you then criticized...but only after trying to prove how much he's done!
Masking is the only defense available to children...
It's not, though.
It's the only one we deem convenient enough to adopt.
We could easily do all of the things we did last school year, including online classes, alternating in person days, or letting families choose online vs in person.
But we're not going to do any of those, because the primary function of public school is to provide daycare while parents work.
Kids are not likely to wear the mask correctly
That's where the grown ups come in to show them how. Unfortunately, many grown ups act more like children when they refuse to wear masks or get vaccinated.
Gordy, you should wear the mask for ten hours a day. Then tell us the best way to wear it.
Easy, fit it over the nose and mouth, with the top of the mask on the bridge of the nose and the bottom over the chin. Make sure to pinch the nose bridge strip (if the mask has one) so a seal is produced. Then simply place the ear straps around the ears. And there you have a perfectly fitting mask. And BTW, I've worn mask for longer than 10 hours. It's no big deal. After a while, it doesn't seem like I'm wearing one. So I don't see what the big deal about wearing a mask is. Especially in the middle of a pandemic. Maybe if more people stopped whining about wearing masks and actually put a little effort into wearing them, we could get over this pandemic.
I used to wear them all the time until I finally got vaccinated. Now I will not wear them.
Get your minority base vaccinated.
I still wear them. I haven't become ill with anything since I started wearing them too. And everyone should get vaccinated. That's a no brainer.
Then you don't trust the vaccine?
I haven't become ill with anything since I started wearing them too.
Neither have I
And everyone should get vaccinated. That's a no brainer.
No shit! It's not happening, so what will Biden do to stop it before we have a variant that will overcome the vaccine?
BTW I want everyone to understand something. Seven or eight months ago when I was waiting to get the vaccine, democrats that I happen to know were saying that they wouldn't get the vaccine until the FDA gave it's complete approval. Haven't heard from them lately. So much for their fake virtue signaling. They have none.
Yes, I do trust the vaccine as the evidence is presented. I don't trust other people. And no one knows if I'm vaccinated or not. So I wear a mask to put others at ease and to provide greater protection to myself and others. I'm considerate like that.
What do you think Biden can do to get people to take the vaccine? The vaccine is out there and easily available at any pharmacy or clinic that offers it. People need to take the initiative and get the vaccine. All Biden can do is encourage people to get the vaccine and take proper precautions (Something Trump should have done at the beginning).
The vaccine was approved by the FDA. It couldn't be provided to the public without it. And now it's out and available. So what's the problem? Other than people refusing to get it or spread misinformation about it!
In spite of being shown how...kids won't bother to wear therm correctly
Hence the need for adult supervision and possibly discipline.
Gordy 327 wrote: "(Something Trump should have done at the beginning)."
Maybe because Trump knew people don't care for government telling them what to do.
You must not have kids!
That's what I was saying in the late 60's!
I'm not sure why you make that assumption, especially since I have never mentioned my family status.
And people are definitely too stupid to know what's better for them and others.
Good to hear Gordy. I'd hate to wait for the FDA to give it's full approval.
. I don't trust other people.
If you are vaccinated, you don't have to worry about them.
So I wear a mask to put others at ease and to provide greater protection to myself and others. I'm considerate like that.
You'll forgive me if I doubt that is the reason.
What do you think Biden can do to get people to take the vaccine?
It his his responsibility now, isn't it? He inherited a vaccine and he had ample warning of the delta variant.
Here is the answer Gordy:
1) Nobody enters the US without being vaccinated
2) Nobody gets to enter public places or public events without proof of a vaccine
3) All Federal employees must be vaccinated
4) All health care employees must be vaccinated
5) All teachers must be vaccinated.
It's not too late if Joe will simply take action!
The vaccine was approved by the FDA.
Only on an emergency basis and you know that Gordy. Even the devious Dr Fauci has called upon the FDA to give it's full approval:
Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he was hopeful the Food and Drug Administration will fully approve the vaccines, which have been administered under emergency use authorizations, by the end of the month.
Not quite. True, vaccines will protect one and keep the immune system primed and ready to take on a viral infection. But the current vaccines are less effective against the Covid variants, especially the Delta variant. However, vaccines still provide about 75% effective protection against variants as opposed to the 90-95% protection afforded to non-variants. Of course, it's not unreasonable to assume that as newer variants arise, there is the potential for even greater reduced efficacy of vaccines, or even becoming completely ineffective. The Delta variant is an indication of that possibility. It's also not firmly established how long immunity actually lasts, as this is still a new virus and vaccine. Studies are still being conducted on that. Reinfections and breakthrough infections (among vaccinated and naturally acquired immunity) have also been reported. According to a study published in Clinical Infectious Diseases (March 2021, ), " The protection of prior infection against reinfection was 81.8%." However, time was also a significant factor and overall, reinfection was not very likely or produced less severe symptoms, if any.
It's the truth. But I don't really care if you accept it or not.
I'm all for that. As it currently stands, anyone entering the US (both foreigner or US citizen) from international travel must " get tested no more than 3 days before their flight departs and to present the negative result or documentation of having recovered from COVID-19 to the airline before boarding the flight. Air passengers will also be required to confirm that the information they present is true in the form of an attestation (CDC).
Specify what constitutes a "public place/event." Are you referring to businesses, schools, ect.?
The Biden Administration already requires all federal employees and onsite contractors to attest their vaccination status or be subject to masking, social distancing and COVID-19 testing requirements. I would prefer to see vaccines mandated for federal employees (and everyone else for that matter). But I have no doubt someone would start whining about their civil rights if that were the case.
Outside of the Dept. of Veterans Affairs health facilities, Biden has no say over healthcare institutions vaccination policies. The VA already mandates vaccinations for employees and many other healthcare facilities do the same too.
According to the CDC, " On March 2, President Biden directed all states to make Pre-K-12 teachers, school staff, and childcare workers eligible for vaccination and prioritized vaccinations for them within the Federal Retail Pharmacy Program during the month of March. Following the directive, the number of states where these essential workers were eligible increased by more than 50 percent. Many jurisdictions made significant efforts, including holding school-specific vaccination events, that contributed to the success of this national endeavor, in addition to the prioritization within the pharmacy program .... Nearly 80 percent of Pre-K-12 teachers, school staff, and childcare workers received at least their first shot of COVID-19 vaccine by the end of March " Hopefully, the current vaccination rate is higher. I'd love to see a 100% vaccination rate.
Looks to me like he already has relatively early on. Perhaps you didn't notice?
Yes, and? It's still approved. It's still effective. And it's still available. That's what matters.
are they going to horsewhip children who don’t fully comply with with the whims of the progressive left?
Not surprising either.
Oh please Greg. Just stop. Haven't you passed a school yard in the past 18 months?
I'm done waiting for the un-vaccinated to get vaccinated.
We should confine them to covid quarantine camps. If we could confine Typhoid Mary for nearly 30 years of her life for infecting people with typhoid, certainly the covid un-vaccinated have a place waiting for them in modern hygienic isolation.
they can start rounding us all up any time they are ready. But I suggest they also find a vaccine for the 2nd amendment before they try
LOL
Not enough people in the country to round up half this country.
LOL
Let's start with the thousands of migrants sleepy Joe is letting into the country.
Insignificant compared to the 90 million knuckleheads who are unvaccinated.
Careful who you call knuckleheads:
CDC: Only 5% of Americans vaccinated are Black
Playing the race card with a 6 month old "news" article from MSNBC who according to you has zero credibility?
Here's a current article dated 08/04/2021
The CDC also admits it only has race/ethnicity data for 58% of the vaccinated citizens....
So essentially if they only know the ethnicity of 58% of the recipients, and don't know squat about the other 42%
the rest of their charts and conclusions are as meaningless as your 6 month old "news" link.
In other words you think that things have radically chjanged in 6 months? I doubt it. The politics is obviously the same.
It is odd to see you even question MSNBC,
No source is sacred when one doesn't like the info.
Of course they have. On 02/10/2021 only 3.2% of the country had 2 shots, 10.3% only one shot.
Today 50.8% are fully vaccinated.
Per the article at least 42% of the recipients ethnicity was not noted by the care providers making any statistics
based on race just a guess.
Why?
That sword cuts both ways when you decry their credibility
until you find some meaningless archived story that you think fits your agenda, right?
Ok, then let's see where we are on Aug 4th of this very month:
"As of this week, 70% of the adult population in the United States have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. While this progress represents a marked achievement in vaccinations that has led to steep declines in COVID-19 cases and deaths, vaccination coverage—and the protections provided by it—remains uneven across the country. With the growing spread of the more transmissible Delta variant, cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are once again rising, largely among unvaccinated people. While White adults account for the largest share (57%) of unvaccinated adults, Black and Hispanic people remain less likely than their White counterparts to have received a vaccine, leaving them at increased risk, particularly as the variant spreads."
The CDC reports demographic characteristics, including race/ethnicity, of people receiving COVID-19 vaccinations at the national level. As of August 2, 2021, CDC reported that race/ethnicity was known for 58% of people who had received at least one dose of the vaccine. Among this group, nearly two thirds were White (59%), 10% were Black, 16% were Hispanic, 6% were Asian, 1% were American Indian or Alaska Native, and <1% were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, while 8% reported multiple or other race. However, CDC data also show that recent vaccinations are reaching larger shares of Hispanic, Asian, and Black populations compared to overall vaccinations. Twenty-six percent of vaccines administered in the past 14 days have gone to Hispanic people, 4% to Asian people, and 15% to Black people (Figure 1). These recent patterns suggest a narrowing of racial gaps in vaccinations at the national level, particularly for Hispanic and Black people, who account for a larger share of recent vaccinations compared to their share of the total population (26% vs. 17% and 15% vs. 12%, respectively). While these data provide helpful insights at a national level, to date, CDC is not publicly reporting state-level data on the racial/ethnic composition of people vaccinated."
Oh, that may be why you didn't respond with any recent statistics! So go tell Biden and Rice that the "unvaccinated" narrative of some rural white guy wearing a red hat is another big lie. It's really more a problem of minorities not trusting the vaccine and letting thousands of unvaccinated people into the country,
Today 50.8% are fully vaccinated.
Where I live it is more than that:
In Massachusetts, 5,063,922 people or 73% of the state has received at least one dose.
Overall, 4,441,091 people or 64% of Massachusetts's population has been fully vaccinated.
That sword cuts both ways when you decry their credibility
Not for me. I put the substance from any source to the test. Any publication, even the ones we have "banned" can publish a legitimate news story, just as any "once" respected news organization can shade the truth. It's up to the reader to determine the truth. IMO those who come on here looking to ban sources fear the truth.
You clearly miss the point, even when you highlight the important parts.
Of the 58 percent whose ethnicity known there is a breakdown which shows 10% of blacks, not your 5%.
But it's all a meaningless argument without knowing the ethnic breakdown of the other 42% of those who were vaccinated.
Apparently not since you quoted the same 08/04/2021 source that I did, without understanding what it says.
Apparently not since you quoted the same source that I did, without understanding what it says.
Of course you forgot to bold this part because it does not fit your narrative either...
Of course vaccination stats have radically changed in six months.
Six months ago vaccines were hard to get and vaccination sites popped up first in affluent areas.
I'm not saying you're a racist (that would be rude) but your argument sure is.
And that's a fact not an opinion.
You will be locking up an awful lot of African Americans and Hispanic Americans in your camps…
57% of the 90 million are white people....there won't be any camps. This message was approved by CRT.
Welcome back GS, it's been too long...
Hello to you too.
I still miss Newsvine. This place is vaguely familiar but each time I come back I find fewer of the people I used to know.
Most of the members are still old viners.
Hi, Perrie. I'm dying of curiosity - does NT turn you a profit or is it all a labor of love?
Yet, an awful lot of the far rightwingers here were banned there. That is not true of most liberal members. There were good reasons for that. That is also why so many of the liberals who first came here soon after NV closed moved along pretty quickly. NT is more evenly divided politically. I do realize the far right feels persecuted, but they always do. I still find the amount of straight up fake or false news that is plainly intended to mislead us that is allowed here to be, um, shocking.
I often ask my friends and family to quickly peruse NT and then to give me their initial perceptions. What they say would probably make you sad, because I do not think you really want to be perceived as a conduit for so much misinformation, disinformation and hate...
A real shame then because that implies they seek an echo chamber. I think it is impossible to have a forum where all interests / groups can participate without misinformation, disinformation and emotions. So it seems the options are: echo chamber, an actual open forum or nothing.
It seems very few institutions these days remain stable with a mix of opinion. You are either woke or canceled in academia and much of the school system. Publications purge for purity. Corporations make decisions to avoid boycotts. They figure out which demo to cave to.
It is most def a labor of love. There was a time I thought it would, but that never happened.
Is the platform hard to configure? I have a relative with a podcast and a dedicated forum would be a really cool add-on.
Yes, it is and that is what keeps me carrying on.
Look, I am a strong advocate for freedom of speech, and it is tough when I disagree with some content or feel that it is mis or disinformation. What I would say is that we have a strong community, and it is better to fight it, with intelligent discussion and facts, than try to bury it so that it can flourish elsewhere.
I am not sure what you mean by hard to configure, but most things like podcasts can be added and I would be very interested to hear more about that.
I would hope that most people would like open debate. I know that I do.
I meant jam room, the hosting service you seem to be using. Is that hard to use?
You do realize why that is do you not? FFS it was all Maddow/Benen (as lefty as it gets) all the time. It may as well have been an echo chamber. Sally, Tyler, Dave. They all had left wing ideologies.
I would posit that they moved on because the moderation here is a bit more strict and not quite as tilted left as NV was. They pretty much had NV wrapped around their fingers. Remember Feisty Redhead Roselle, Illinois and all the girls of the Libs-R-Us gang?
Jamroom is easy for the user to use. It is a bit more complicated from the backend. It's a great platform when it comes to setting up features, which is why I chose it.
Do not talk ill of la parapluie de Cherbourg.
it'd be nice if you could let me win once in a while...
Keep the streak alive Dev.
The four biggest cities in Texas ( Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin) are disregarding their brain addled governor and are either going to require masks for schoolchildren this fall or are seriously considering doing so.
I live in Dallas. Don't believe the one side of the story you read from Chicago, any more than people living in Dallas should believe that the entirety of Chicago is some sort of war zone just because Fox News portrays it that way.
The reality is much more complicated.
Much of what Abbott has done is a response to specific overreach by certain local authorities, Clay Jenkins being a prime culprit.
Not wrong at all.
It's not wrong, but it's more complicated than that.
Keep in mind, a lot of these kids in secondary schools are going to be vaccinated, and are therefore at no serious health risk from Covid.
That said, this idea has zero chance of keeping anybody safe, and everybody knows it. It's completely unenforceable in a district like DISD, which has great difficulty enforcing anything.
It's great for show, and it's great for pretending to do something while simultaneously not inconveniencing anybody, because everybody know it won't be enforced after the first day.
If you're really concerned about the safety of the kids, go back to online learning or some combination of online and in-person that allows you to maintain social distancing. Do that for a few weeks and evaluate the situation then. Unfortunately, that makes your teachers work more and doesn't let you make a press statement about how you're standing up to the Governor, so it's unlikely to happen.
As much as I hate government mandates and government overreach taking the rights away from parents, until the vaccines are approved for all ages and we can vaccinate the very young children we are talking about then I feel we have a moral imperative to protect the children as much as can be done. Not all parents can take another year of home schooling as they need to get back to work.
And the rhetoric and fear being pushed from both sides doesn't help. It would also help if we got some solid advice from government and the CDC rather than the fear.
I've said before and I will continue to say, until we can vaccinate all the children then they need to wear masks in school.
wow, a little off the deep end don't ya think?
Science tells us the best way to protect individuals from the Covid virus is the vaccinations. However the vaccine (any of them) is still not approved even for emergency use for any children under the age of 12. Therefore the only protections they can have is either home-school them or have mask mandates in school. I want our children in school, I've watched my grandchildren lose so much education over the past year due to home-schooling and remote learning. Long-term I believe the lost of formal education for the past year will be an issue we have to deal with for quite a while.
And we know that masks provide little protection for the person wearing the mask. The major purpose of the mask is to reduce the potential of you spreading germs to others when you talk, cough or even breath. And the science does support that conclusion.
Your last line however, I'm not comfortable with children dying from anything. If we have a means of reducing the number of children dying of the virus shouldn't we use it? Yes not every child will catch the virus and not every child who does catch the virus will die. But I still believe that until the vaccines are approved for all ages we need to do what we can to reduce the potential of impact to those who cannot take the virus.
What percentage of children dying are you comfortable with as a result of taking no precautions?
What "science" are you referring to? Actual science has demonstrated the efficacy of masks at preventing the spread of covid, especially in the absence of a vaccine.
What are you talking about? What children have died from any of these mandates? The only children dying are those with Covid.
he's probably talking about the goober kids whose parents put duct tape masks on them.
I doubt you'll get any real answer. Considering he hasn't answered my question and has since run away when challenged, it seems an answer to your query is unlikely.
If it is so bad that kids are not safe in school without masks then it is unsafe for schools to be open. It will not work.
Tommy has to blow his nose, Billy sneezes, George's mask comes off while he is coughing, Nancy gets upset and starts crying and takes her's off to wipe the tears and that mean bully Mike pulls people's masks off.
It ain't going to be effective and we have not got to the lunch room yet.
Our children and grandchildren are worth every effort to keep them safe. Every effort taken may save a child. I would rather make an effort instead of saying "it's too difficult so don't do anything at all. " We have shooter drills and parents buying bulletproof backpacks,and advocates for guns in schools to keep them safe offering to make every effort to keep them safe from a shooter, but yet wearing a mask is "too hard", "not necessary"?
Our children and grandchildren are worth any effort and all efforts to protect them.
This Just IN
In pusuit of the "science:"
Have you ever wondered, Vic, why America appears to be incapable of containing the virus, WITHOUT laying the blame on Biden?
How about asking if the masks reduce Covid transmission at all? With the resurgence of the mask mandate many municipalities mandates go into effect at a specific date and time. If the mask really worked as well as many think / hope, the mandates would go into effect immediately. Not on a Friday at 5PM when the moon is full and the Unicorns stamped in Walmart.
Right Jeremy, because municipalities shouldn't give residents the time to AQUIRE masks before they mandate them. /s
We're over a year in. If somebody doesn't have a mask then there lies a failure of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
WTF is your point Jeremy?
Are you claiming that the state shouldn't give people time to comply with a mandate?
I stated my point in 18. If the mask was that important, the mandate would go into effect IMMEDIATELY. Not at 5 PM two days from now.
We've been in this over 18 months. If you don't have a mask by now, I have serious doubts about that person's survivability.
Why would you use indirect facts (a delay in effecting a mandate) to conclude that masks are ineffective?
Why not go directly to tests on masks to determine efficacy? Or maybe go by the CDC? Something that is more directly tied to mask efficacy might be closer to truth than an indirect inference based on a bureaucratic decision.
Gee Jeremy, that connotes that masks ARE that important...
Yes, masks do reduce transmission. That's been scientifically demonstrated. But mandates only work as well as the people who follow them. If everyone actually followed mask mandates (to say nothing of vaccinations), then covid would not be such a problem now.
And where would this scientifically demonstrated proof lie? Of the studies I've looked at, that isn't the case.
During my time in the military we wore the M40 Protective Mask to protect ourselves against chemical and biological threats. The CDC wears protective masks that are more advanced that what the military uses. Not cloth or paper masks.
Now looking at the face diapers that people are using, the cloth mask is ineffective. It does not stop a damn thing from escaping or getting to your face. The ONLY one that is remotely effective is the N95 mask. And that is only if the mask is worn PROPERLY (which 99.9% of the population don't know how to do), work ONCE then thrown away. The idea that a re-useable cloth or paper mask being effective is laughable
Not to mention juvenile
Perrie already provided one piece in her post 18.4.1.
Here is another one.
And Another , which states in its conclusion: The effectiveness of masks in population-wide scenarios has been proven to be significant , and as a result, universal face-masking has been encouraged by many national and international agencies.
Here is one from the EPA :
And one from the CDC .
I could go on. But I think you get that point. They all basically say the same thing: Masks help reduce the transmission of Covid.
What "studies" are you looking at?
Cloth or paper masks are not as effective as surgical masks. That's already known. They do provide some protection. But they are still better than nothing. Not wearing a mask at all has 0% efficacy at preventing the spread of Covid. The Emerging Infectious Diseases Journal addresses this, stating [emphasis mine]: The filtration, effectiveness, fit, and performance of cloth masks are inferior to those of medical masks and respirators. Cloth mask use should not be mandated for healthcare workers, who should as a priority be provided proper respiratory protection. Cloth masks are a more suitable option for community use when medical masks are unavailable. Protection provided by cloth masks may be improved by selecting appropriate material, increasing the number of mask layers, and using those with a design that provides filtration and fit.
My cited sources proves that statement wrong!
The Mayo Clinic , along with my other cited sources, also proves that statement wrong! ALL masks must be worn properly to be effective. That's a no brainer.
Do you doubt that masks mitigate the spread of infection?? If so, then what do you presume is the purpose of the mandate? Who benefits from inconveniencing the population?
This is exactly what masks help to do, caught on film, for those who seeing is believing.
I doubt the need. Like I said. If the mask was really the method to stop this, the mandates would go into effect immediately. Not as an announcement on the Monday morning news that the masks will be required on Friday at 5PM.
You ignored my argument and simply repeated your point. Hmmmm.
So because there was a period prior to going into effect (a very normal protocol) you (oddly) infer that this must mean masks are ineffective.
Not only is your cause and effect weak, it denies the scientifically derived fact that masks do indeed mitigate the spread of the virus.
On top of that, if authorities believe masks are ineffective then they are pointlessly inconveniencing the electorate (which does not help them in reelection). So what do they have to gain by imposing the inconvenience?
Masks and associated mandates are only effective if people adhere to them. Wearing masks properly is also necessary. But people have been complaining about masks and/or refusing to wear them since near the beginning of the pandemic. It's no wonder covid spread like wildfire.
And those who claim masks are pointless embolden others to not wear masks by giving them an excuse. It is amazing how word of mouth theories can have such an effect on the population.
The only thing more virulent than Covid is stupidity. Now that's a real plague on society.
That question has been answered: masks are effective at preventing Covid transmission. How is there any question about that now?