Biden tells some hard truths few want to hear

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  2 months ago  •  80 comments

Biden tells some hard truths few want to hear
He might have saved his breath. Reporters will ask the same question over and over again, as if to suggest that they would have a more sophisticated approach to dealing with the Taliban than those on the ground.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



www.washingtonpost.com   /opinions/2021/08/29/biden-tells-some-hard-truths-few-want-hear/

Biden tells some hard truths few want to hear


Jennifer Rubin 6-7 minutes   8/29/2021




President Biden on Thursday mournfully   delivered   information to the country that was disagreeable to many Americans: There is no way to withdraw from a futile war without messiness. The expectation that there would be no misery or casualties was a fantasy.



A case in point is the issue of Afghan refugees. “I know of no conflict, as a student of history — no conflict where, when a war was ending, one side was able to guarantee that everyone that wanted to be extracted from that country would get out,” Biden said solemnly. His historical memory is accurate.



The United States   has transported   roughly 120,000 Afghans and American citizens to safety at great human cost. That miraculous feat is a tribute to the humanity and bravery of the U.S. military and civilian personnel and   volunteers . But any hope of depopulating a war-torn country, and ending the suffering there (including the dismal future for millions of women and girls) after our defeat is not grounded in reality. It belongs with the magical thinking that the United States could create a nation state in Afghanistan.



A week ago, many in the media were lecturing the administration for abandoning Afghans. Now, after we evacuated about 120,000 people at the cost of   13 American lives , reporters wanted to know why we were keeping troops at the airport. In response to such a question on Thursday,   Biden said : “There are additional American citizens, there are additional green-card holders, there are additional personnel of our allies, there are additional SIV cardholders, there are additional Afghans that have helped us, and there are additional groups of individuals that — who have contacted us from women’s groups, to NGOs, and others, who have expressly indicated they want to get out.”) He was criticized for “abandoning” Afghans; when we stay to rescue them he gets faulted for risking American lives.



The insistence that there must have been a painless way — or, by gosh, a less painless way! — to lose a 20-year war, rescue all imperiled Afghans and avoid any more casualties is a fable too many insist on cultivating.



We should have kept control of Bagram airfield!   (Bagram is 30 miles or so from Kabul. The U.S. military would have had to protect any caravan of refugees transported there, while also defending a very large facility.)



We should have pulled out everyone in April!   (Would not the Afghan government have crumbled then?)



We should have known the army would collapse!   (Apparently 20 years of training and effort to forge a national identity was a waste of time.)



Just leave a few thousand U.S. troops there!   (And attacks akin to what happened on Thursday would magically cease? One should think long and hard before increasing the   number   of Gold Star parents.)



Biden seemed sincerely interested in confronting the media’s favored storylines. As reporters scoffed at the notion that the United States trusts the Taliban to provide security, Biden   explained , “No one trusts them; we’re just counting on their self-interest to continue to generate their activities. And it’s in their self-interest that we leave when we said and that we get as many people out as we can.” He added, “And like I said, even in the midst of everything that happened today, over 7,000 people have gotten out; over 5,000 Americans overall.”



He might have saved his breath. Reporters will ask the same question over and over again, as if to suggest that they would have a more sophisticated approach to dealing with the Taliban than those on the ground.



The conviction that a president should have foreseen everything and escaped the consequences of a disastrous war is reflective of the mind-set of highly educated professionals, who are convinced all problems can be addressed if only we find someone wise enough to see around all the corners. There is no way to defuse the certitude of Biden’s critics, or to dispel their self-serving rationale for leaving troops there indefinitely. Biden, like all presidents, must do what he thinks is right and leave the verdict to voters — and to history.



The administration made serious errors in 2021 — as did three administrations in the 19 years beforehand. The worst of the recent errors may have been believing the Afghan government and military could stand on their own, at least for a year. That, in turn, set the pace of visa processing and evacuations and the timing of a final withdrawal. The paths not taken (rushing to the exit sooner, leaving troops there indefinitely) could have had dire consequences as well, but these are abstract — while the suffering we watch is concrete and gut-wrenching.



We need some sober reflection on the folly of overeager interventionism. We need to come to terms with the delusional feedback loop between civilian and military leaders. Instead we have a media and political culture that are not serious or attentive enough to grasp that dilemmas 20 years in the making have no good answer, just less terrible ones.   Everything   is reduced to a partisan question. (Is Biden in crisis? Is this a boost for Republicans?) The media, it seems, does not know how to cover a tragedy without viewing it through the lens of horse-race politics. It is so much easier to pronounce the exit a “disaster” than to consider if one’s advocacy over 20 years contributed to the groupthink that sent young men and women to die. Confronted with 13 dead Americans, the press is eager to demonstrate Biden missed the obvious, safe course. What that is, they do not explain.



This week’s loss of life — both American and Afghan — is heartbreaking. With a mainstream media obsessed with stoking partisan squabbling, and Americans refusing to process the consequences of their own choices, it does make one pessimistic about self-government.




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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 months ago
we have a media and political culture that are not serious or attentive enough to grasp that dilemmas 20 years in the making have no good answer, just less terrible ones.   Everything   is reduced to a partisan question. (Is Biden in crisis? Is this a boost for Republicans?) The media, it seems, does not know how to cover a tragedy without viewing it through the lens of horse-race politics. It is so much easier to pronounce the exit a “disaster” than to consider if one’s advocacy over 20 years contributed to the groupthink that sent young men and women to die. Confronted with 13 dead Americans, the press is eager to demonstrate Biden missed the obvious, safe course. What that is, they do not explain.
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago

The media has been pretty disgraceful throughout all this. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
1.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    2 months ago

No one will defend Biden until after the evacuations are over

hopefully with no more loss of any lives, especially Americans or allies

(wholly disappointed that the first loss of life of an ally, a British soldier, was ignored by our media)

( not surprised that it took 24 hours to mention that two of the "Afghans" killed by the suicide bomber were

actually British along with two of their children and the child of another UK resident)

If everything more or less works out without any further loss of life

look for calls of audits for how much the airlift cost and what we got out of it.

Party over Country

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Split Personality @1.1.1    2 months ago

The "usual suspects" would have attacked Biden over Afghanistan no matter what he did or how it turned out. 

They are destroying America. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.1.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.2    2 months ago
al suspects" would have attacked Biden over Afghanistan

Does Biden deserve any criticism on this, or any other topic? 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.1.4  Ronin2  replied to  Split Personality @1.1.1    2 months ago
No one will defend Biden until after the evacuations are over

Anyone that tries to defend Biden will be castigated. Nothing is going to change the fact he fucked the withdrawal and evacuation up beyond all belief. If the last US troops depart on 8/31 and there are still US civilians on the ground in Afghanistan that cannot get out; the calls for him to resign will be deafening. The calls for his immediate removal either under Article 25 or impeachment will be even louder if he doesn't resign.

hopefully with no more loss of any lives, especially Americans or allies

Hope is for suckers. Hope is what you have left when you have run out of options and planning. How are the last US soldiers going to get out? Who is going to protect them? The 500 to 600 Afghan security forces at the airport that have been helping us? If they are left behind they will turn on us as we flee. The Taliban will kill every last one of them when they retake the airport. The Taliban? They have already fucked that job up; and proven they are either not up to the task- or are aiding the other factions in reaching the airport. Any moron with an RPG can take down one of the cargo planes as it departs if they can get close enough. The normal answer is US air cover; but Biden stupidly removed it from the area already.

(wholly disappointed that the first loss of life of an ally, a British soldier, was ignored by our media)

Why don't you say how the soldier was killed? Could it be that it would make Biden look bad? That they were actually outside the parameter trying to recover their citizens and those that aided their country? The soldiers death in no way changes Biden's fuck up; it only further points it out.

( not surprised that it took 24 hours to mention that two of the "Afghans" killed by the suicide bomber were actually British along with two of their children and the child of another UK resident)

Trying to figure out what your point is? Our allies are risking more trying to bring their people safely home. Think these British citizens deaths in any way provide cover for Biden? Is that all they amount to is tools for the left?

If everything more or less works out without any further loss of life look for calls of audits for how much the airlift cost and what we got out of it.

Sorry, we will be too damn busy trying to figure out how to get the rest of the US citizens in Afghanistan that were left behind! It isn't like Biden has any plans on how to do it! Hopefully those private citizens and politicians with ties to Afghanistan can raise the funds to use mercenaries to locate and get the rest of them out. It seems to have worked for Israel and others. The less Biden has to do with Afghanistan, or anything for that matter, after this the better.

 Party over Country

The Democratic Party's motto for the last 6 plus years. Why should it change now that they have placed the most incompetent individual ever in the WH?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.5  Ozzwald  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.3    2 months ago
Does Biden deserve any criticism on this, or any other topic?

You're comparing ripping the Band-Aid off, to slowly and gently peeling it off.  Gently peeling it off would have extended the duration of the war, and MAY HAVE caused more deaths in the long run than ripping it off.  The truth is that we will never know.

But what you are ignoring is that one way or another, that Band-Aid had to come off.

Does he deserve criticism?  Of course, no action by any POTUS is perfect, and all deserve criticism.  But that criticism should wait until all facts are in.  Most of the current criticism is politically based, not based on actual facts.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
1.1.6  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    2 months ago

For reporting the truth?

 
 
 
squiggy
Freshman Quiet
1.1.7  squiggy  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    2 months ago

"The media has been pretty disgraceful throughout all this. 

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
1.1.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.5    2 months ago
You're comparing ripping the Band-Aid off, to slowly and gently peeling it off.

That is not why people are angry, and you know it.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
1.1.9  MonsterMash  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    2 months ago
The media has been pretty disgraceful throughout all this. 

Aww John, too bad the media isn't kissing Bitens ass as you expected.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
1.1.10  dennis smith  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.4    2 months ago

Bidet lied and blamed everyone today 8/31. Multiple times he has said we will NOT leave any American behind which he did today.

Even some of the left leaning media have been calling him out for his asinine withdrawal "plan".

Giving the Taliban access to 10's of billions of dollars in military equipment which they are now displaying. Could have destroyed them all but did not. 

It came out tonight that he asked the Afghan President to change the perception on how the withdrawal was going when the Afghan troops were giving up and Taliban took over large swaths of the country.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.1.11  XXJefferson51  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1    2 months ago

There is nothing left to defend.  It was a total disgrace.  He should be forced out of office in disgrace under the 25th amendment.  He sold out America to terrorists.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago
he press is eager to demonstrate Biden missed the obvious, safe course. What that is, they do not explain.

Jennifer Rubin??? You know you've hit rock bottom when you have to rely on the preeminent  clown in the Washington Press corps to find an opinion.   Having to rely on her is an admission of defeat in and of itself. 

It's been repeated over, and over and over. Maybe if you weren't playing ostrich you would have heard. 

 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2  Sean Treacy    2 months ago

Hard truths??/

How bout just not looking at  his watch during a ceremony honoring the troops his negligence killed? 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
2.1  bbl-1  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    2 months ago

Yeah, there ya go. 

[deleted]

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2.1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  bbl-1 @2.1    2 months ago
m like a really smart guy,"  DJT.  Stick with tha

I know Biden is indefensible, but you don't have to be so obvious in your deflection. 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
2.1.2  bbl-1  replied to  bbl-1 @2.1    2 months ago

Trolling my arse. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
2.2  Split Personality  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    2 months ago

I leave it to you to spread the propaganda and hate from RT.com.

Typical.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
2.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  Split Personality @2.2    2 months ago

Really,

Guess the rest of these news outlets are just spreading progaganda as well?

Biden's apparent checking of his watch sparked fury among veterans, Republican politicians and commenters online. 

'Looks like he was being inconvenienced by having to show some respect for these American Heroes [sic],' wrote Desert Storm Army veteran Samuel Williams.

Submarine veteran J Larry Hanna wrote: 'Biden, as the caskets passed before him, had to glance at his watch. Does he have something more important?'

Another veteran wrote: 'After a fallen soldier goes by, Biden shows his true incredibly disrespectful soul, he checks his watch as if he has somewhere else to be. I’m so mad, this is personal slap to all veterans and active duty.'

Republicans also leapt to criticize the president.

Texas Rep. Ronny Jackson, a retired Navy rear admiral, tweeted: 'Apparently our Commander-in-Chief has better things to do than honor the 13 service members who died on his watch? I’m DISGUSTED! God bless these heroes and their loved ones. They deserved better.' 

Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee said: 'Many of us remember Pres Bush 41 checking his watch during a debate and how awful it looked (even though we all felt same way about that debate.) But this is shocking and will be remembered.'  

Leave it to you to defend the indefensible.

Party before country at all times for Democrats.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2.2.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Split Personality @2.2    2 months ago

spread the propaganda and hate from RT.com.

Sure C-Span is in cahoots with RT.com to make Joe Biden look bad.  Any other wild conspiracies you want to spin?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @2.2.1    2 months ago

The Daily Mail is the equivalent of the National Enquirer.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.2.4  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Ronin2 @2.2.1    2 months ago

The actual checking of the watch happened after the ceremony:

Here it is being reported from the right-leaning "Sun"

After the seemingly gaffe-prone President saluted and paid tribute to the 13 troops, he dropped his arm and appeared to glance at his watch, prompting a barrage of criticism.

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Participates
2.2.5  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.4    2 months ago
The actual checking of the watch happened after the ceremony: Here it is being reported from the right-leaning "Sun"

Check again.  

I was watching as they were brought off the C17 for the formal transfer ceremony.  If you notice in the picture, Biden still had his hand over his heart and had been watching the casket to the point of being loaded into the vans waiting to the deceased.  Yes, facts matter.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.6  devangelical  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.4    2 months ago

geez, way to steer that self righteous super patriot meme right into the ditch...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.2.7  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @2.2.5    2 months ago

Please provide a video of that actually happening, because I did check and I can't find any and he certainly didn't check his watch after each casket passed him, as the one father claimed, because there is plenty of video out there showing that not to be true.

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Participates
2.2.8  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.7    2 months ago
Please provide a video of that actually happening, because I did check and I can't find any.

My FIRST sentence.  

"I was watching as they were brought off the C17 for the formal transfer ceremony."

If you want video of the entire ceremony, you'll need to find it yourself.  I'm unable to rip my eyes out nor get a video from brain cells.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.9  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @2.2.5    2 months ago

The second father on the Hannity show last night specifically says that Biden checked his watch each and every time a new casket came out of the plane. That would be 13 times.  Is it your opinion that happened or not, and if not , why would the father say it? 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.2.10  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @2.2.8    2 months ago

So basically you are saying that there is no video of this happening before after or during, just take you at your word, albeit nastily said to me.

The problem with that is memory is often faulty. Kind of like the dad who said he saw Biden do that each time a coffin passed him, which obviously by all reports, didn't happen. 

Now I am not saying that Biden didn't look at his watch, but when it happened makes it more or less egredous. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.11  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.9    2 months ago

Here is a story from the BBC . They mention him checking his watch once.   If he checked his watch 4 times, or 13 times, I see no reason why BBC would not have said so, it is a rather lengthy description. 

Biden appears to check his WATCH during ceremony honoring the 13 US troops killed in Kabul attack - News and Gossip (bbcgossip.com)

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.12  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.11    2 months ago

look at this video , starting at 1:00 mark until about the 1:30 mark. There is something interesting there. 

Biden, and the other people with him, have their hands over their hearts . When that part of the ceremony ends, they all lower their hands away from their hearts. Biden also lowers his head and briefly joins his hands in front of him. 

The "looking at his watch" thing comes as part of that overall movement. It appears to be ambiguous as to whether he was looking at the time at all. 

As for looking at his watch 13 times, why would anyone look at his watch 13 times during a short span of time? It doesnt make the slightest bit of sense. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
2.2.13  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.11    2 months ago

Donald Trump would have put out 27 tweets denigrating 8 demographics over the same timeframe, had he not lost the election and his access to twitter.  Of course it wouldn’t have been in the same circumstances, since he wouldn’t have attended this because he only likes soldiers that don’t get captured or killed.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.12    2 months ago

They have to lie about everything, John. trmp taught them that

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.15  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @2.2.13    2 months ago

www.huffpost.com   /entry/donald-trump-dover-afb-returning-soldiers-bodies-lie_n_5f4ebdc9c5b6250f655c1ca8

Trump Stopped Going to Dover AFB To Receive Bodies After Getting Berated On First Visit

S.V. Date 7-9 minutes   9/1/2020


WASHINGTON ― In the world of President   Donald Trump , he has paid his respects to “many, many” returning soldiers killed in the line of duty, with daughter and top presidential aide  Ivanka Trump   adding that “each time” she has stood by his side at one of these ceremonies, it has hardened his resolve to bring troops home.

In the real world, Trump has traveled to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware exactly four times ― fewer than half as many times as his vice president ― and avoided going at all for nearly two years after getting berated for his incompetence by the father of a slain Navy SEAL, according to a former White House aide who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Bill Owens, the father of William “Ryan” Owens, refused to shake Trump’s hand at that Feb. 1, 2017, encounter, the aide said, and then told Trump that he was responsible for his son’s death for approving the   disastrous raid in Yemen   without bothering to understand the risks.

“He refused to go back for two years, he was so rattled,” the aide said, adding that the main reason Trump had approved the raid just five days after taking office was that predecessor Barack Obama had refused to do so.

What’s more, Trump made the decision at a social dinner that included his son-in-law and top adviser, Jared Kushner, and then-chief strategist Stephen Bannon, rather than his National Security Council staff.

“You can count on one hand the number of times Donald Trump has been to Dover,” said Jon Soltz, chairman of the progressive political group VoteVets and an Iraq War veteran. “There simply is no bottom when it comes to what he’ll lie about. I wish there was more outrage about Trump lying about the dignified transfer of the fallen for political reasons, because as a veteran it really disgusts me.”

According to a HuffPost review of Air Force records, there have been 96 “dignified transfers,” as the military refers to them, at Dover since the start of Trump’s presidency, which saw the return of 127 Americans killed overseas. Trump has been there for four of the transfers, which brought home the bodies of nine soldiers.

“It’s one thing to not go. It’s another thing to lie about it,” added Fred Wellman, a retired 22-year Army officer and helicopter pilot who served in Desert Storm and who now works with the anti-Trump group The Lincoln Project.

He said he recalls a visit by former President George W. Bush and first lady Laura Bush to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, to meet families of troops killed in Iraq. “They got yelled at. And Mr. and Mrs. Bush took it,” Wellman said. “He felt it was his duty to accept that. Obviously Mr. Trump doesn’t feel that way. Mr. Trump doesn’t take responsibility for anything.”

He treats it like a tourist stop. ‘Hey, Jon Voight, I get to greet dead guys. Want to come?’ He might as well be in his sweaty golf clothes when he swings by Dover.   Fred Wellman, retired Army officer

Trump, nevertheless, during an Aug. 18 news conference claimed he had been to enough “dignified transfer” ceremonies in his three years in office to be present for the return of “many” soldiers. “I greet men and women coming home, and coming home after they’ve been hit. I’ve also greeted many, many at Dover — greeted many bodies coming back in,” he said.

His elder daughter built on this fabrication nine days later during her remarks at the Republican National Convention, which Trump chose to stage ― despite federal law prohibiting it ― at the White House. “I’ve stood by my father’s side at Dover Air Force Base as he’s received our fallen heroes, and each time it has steeled his resolve to finally stop ― finally stop, the endless foreign wars,” she said.

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In fact, she has stood at her father’s side only twice ― the first being his very first trip, to receive the body of Ryan Owens.

White House officials did not attempt to explain Trump and his daughter’s apparent exaggerations about the issue and instead defended, on condition of anonymity, his handling of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. “There is progress in Afghan peace talks. The U.S. will soon have the fewest troops in Afghanistan in nearly a decade,” a top aide said.

Notwithstanding his dressing down from the SEAL’s father, Trump used Ryan Owen’s death and the raid that killed him in his first address to a joint session of Congress four weeks later. He brought in Owen’s widow, Carryn, and said “Ryan is looking down right now, you know that, and he’s very happy, because I think he just broke a record,” referring to the applause in the chamber. The remarks won him high praise from some television commentators, including one who declared that it was the moment when Trump had finally become president.

Trump did not return to Dover until Jan. 19, 2019, when he was there for the arrival of the bodies of four soldiers killed in a suicide bomb attack in Syria. He went again on Nov. 21, 2019, for the return of two soldiers killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan. Accompanying him on that visit were his wife, Melania, and actor and supporter Jon Voight. It is unclear why Trump brought Voight.

His fourth and final visit was this Feb. 10, when he and Vice President Mike Pence together received the bodies of two service members killed in an ambush by an Afghan soldier.

That visit was the second one Ivanka Trump joined. It included a host of others who, like the first daughter, had just attended Trump’s campaign rally in New Hampshire, including Pence, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), White House social media director Dan Scavino and Jared Kushner, Ivanka’s husband.

“He treats it like a tourist stop,” Wellman said. “‘Hey, Jon Voight, I get to greet dead guys. Want to come?’ He might as well be in his sweaty golf clothes when he swings by Dover.”

Since Feb. 10, there have been 17 dignified transfers at Dover for 18 killed service members. Neither Trump nor Pence has attended any of them.

The new lies about receiving fallen soldiers are not Trump’s first on the topic.

At an October 2017 news conference, Trump falsely claimed that previous presidents, particularly Obama, had not taken the time to call the family members of fallen soldiers. It is unclear whether he was intentionally lying or simply making up assertions without knowing the facts. When he was asked in a follow-up question why he falsely impugned Obama and others, he said he didn’t really know what Obama did but claimed, “That’s what I was told.”

Bill Owens, meanwhile, recently appeared in a VoteVets  ad   urging Americans to vote against Trump. “Just five days into his presidency, Trump ordered Ryan’s SEAL team into Yemen. Not from the Situation Room with all the intelligence assembled, but sitting across a dinner table from Steve Bannon,” Owens says in the ad. “There was no vital interest at play. Just Donald Trump playing big-man-going-to-war.”

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.16  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.14    2 months ago

They freeze the video at the exact moment that makes it looks like Biden was checking out the time. 

In the real time video it is not as clear that that was his intention. As for him doing it 13 times, that is just ridiculous. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.17  Trout Giggles  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.16    2 months ago

So every time the video loops back around they count that as 13 times? That's a special kind of stupid

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.18  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.17    2 months ago

No, I think what the guy is saying is that Biden and the others put their hands to their hearts for each of the 13 caskets as it passed by them, and then after it passed they lowered their hands.   (I dont see any video of that , but maybe there is one.)  So he is saying every time Biden lowered his hand from his heart he checked the time.  It seems more likely that those viewers who are prone to do so are imagining that Biden was checking the time 13 times. 

 
 
 
squiggy
Freshman Quiet
2.2.19  squiggy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.4    2 months ago

"The actual checking of the watch happened after the ceremony:"

The right hand over the heart is a civilian salute. It is not only during a ceremony but in the presence of the movement of the deceased. He is aware of the significance of the moment, then demonstrates his indifference.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.2.20  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  squiggy @2.2.19    2 months ago

Again, please provide a video. It should be easy to do.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
2.2.21  dennis smith  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.12    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
2.2.22  dennis smith  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.15    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
squiggy
Freshman Quiet
2.2.23  squiggy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.20    2 months ago

Yes, it's easy - anybody concerned can find a copy.

 
 
 
squiggy
Freshman Quiet
2.2.24  squiggy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.2.20    2 months ago

There's also one at 2.2 from two days ago and not even Psaki will try to contradict it.

 
 
 
Gazoo
Sophomore Silent
2.3  Gazoo  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    2 months ago

Maybe he was expecting his next set of “instructions?”

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
2.3.1  Ronin2  replied to  Gazoo @2.3    2 months ago

You notice he had to look to his right to remember to put his hand over his heart. Seems that he can't even remember the most basic of ceremonial procedures. Thank god he had Jill on his right to follow. Otherwise who knows what other stupidity he would have done?

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
2.3.2  Split Personality  replied to  Ronin2 @2.3.1    2 months ago
You notice he had to look to his right

I watched the whole thing and there was no one to his right, Dr. Jill Biden was on his left.

Otherwise who knows what other stupidity he would have done?

Ironic much?

A perfect example of believing one's own perspective, right or wrong.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
2.3.3  Ronin2  replied to  Split Personality @2.3.2    2 months ago

My right on the tv screen Sherlock. Sorry, couldn't view it while facing the same way as Biden. Now that really would have been a Biden maneuver. But you already knew that..

The lengths some will go to defend this rampant POS President.

 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.3.4  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @2.3.3    2 months ago
The lengths some will go to defend this rampant POS President.

huh, for most of us, that same sentiment was supposed to end on 1/20/21...

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
3  Ed-NavDoc    2 months ago

In the long run, it does make a damn bit if difference who was in the Oval Office whether it be Democrat or Republican. Absolute bottom line is that the current administration dropped the ball and screwed the pooch big time and people died because of it. Big question is when are those that feel they did not going to realize it and admit it? My guess in never.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
4  1stwarrior    2 months ago

Ed - I'm sure you've noticed, but a vast majority of the NT folks haven't had military service careers nor have they worked within a Fed government job.

The government plays by its own rules - no matter what party is in office.  Unfortunately for Biden, his "Advisors" evidently don't know crap about that either.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  1stwarrior @4    2 months ago

Very true.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
4.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4.1    2 months ago

Let me ask you the same question I asked earlier, elsewhere.

Let's say Biden reconstituted Bagram with 20,000 troops and contractors to facilitate the evacuations.

A, it would be done over the Talibans furious objections removing even the appearance of co=operation imho.

B, the Taliban own the highway from Kabul to Bagram.

C, ISIS pretty much roams the hills and launches rockets against Bagram at will.

D, why would the same situation not develop at the gates of Bagram with suicide bombers walking up to the same security teams

or worse with car bombs or truck bombs?

There is no good defensible point in that shit hole to have a perfect outcome.

Hell, how many times have "trusted" Afghani's turned their weapons on US trainers?

3 killed outside of Bagram, 3 wounded

4 killed on Bagram by Taliban

6 killed by suicide bomber on a motorcycle at Bagram

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.1.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Split Personality @4.1.1    2 months ago

While I will concede much of what you say, I will also add that there was a point where the majority of the Taliban forces were in open country outside of Kabul. That would have been the opportune moment for the US and it's allies to have brought a massive amount of aerial firepower to bear on the Taliban that would have stood a good chance if decimating the enemy forces, yet the Biden administration chose to let the Taliban just waltz into Kabul. I have to ask myself why Biden allowed that? Perhaps if they had, the outcome may have been altered and those 13 lives may not have been lost. I do not know.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
4.1.3  Split Personality  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4.1.2    2 months ago
I have to ask myself why Biden allowed that? Perhaps if they had, the outcome may have been altered and those 13 lives may not have been lost. I do not know.

And I have to ask myself why Mr. Trump broke at least 3 treaties and multiple contracts the US signed in good faith, The Paris deal, the Iran deal and the medium range nuclear missile treaty with Russia,  ( Bush broke one too on the lame excuse that the USSR did not exist anymore), the Trans Pacific Partnership ( to China's delight ), UNESCO, breaking NAFTA and renaming it with immaterial changes, UN Human Rights Council, the UN RWA,

Trump and Pompeo signed a deal with the devil. 

Would Biden acting for America honor it or renege yet again? 

What is an international reputation worth?

In the very end the Taliban were picking up Americans and driving them up to the airport checkpoints,

( in our own MWRAPS )

The Taliban reportedly struck a deal with U.S. to escort Americans to Kabul's airport. A U.S. defense official said 'it worked beautifully.' (msn.com)

in a few cases carrying luggage all the way to the Taliban checkpoint outside of Abbey.

They refrained from attacking the airport and the sitting duck planes coming and going.

They prevented ISIS from doing so on multiple occasions

Perhaps if they had, the outcome may have been altered and those 13 lives may not have been lost. I do not know.

I don't know either brother Ed.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  1stwarrior @4    2 months ago
but a vast majority of the NT folks haven't had military service careers nor have they worked within a Fed government job.

that's on both sides of the aisle, you know.

We have a few pearl clutchers who think they know all about war and how it should be fought. But they never took off their pearls and put on a uniform

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.2.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.2    2 months ago

Amen to that.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
4.2.2  dennis smith  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.2    2 months ago

As a Vietnam veteran I am deeply troubled and really struggling to understand how Biden left Americans behind even after multiple times in the past saying he would never leave any American behind. 

He lied and deflects by bragging about how great of a job he did.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.3  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @4    2 months ago

Yet those that have never served seem to consider themselves experts on how to conduct military operations. It’s also evident that they are not aware that the war with terrorism started in Beirut in 1983 when the  US Embassy and Marine barracks where struck by suicide bombers killing over 300 the majority being US Marines and how Reagan reacted to that.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.3.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Kavika @4.3    2 months ago

I had been in the Navy for ten years in 1983 and I can truthfully without a doubt say that those two events are forever etched into my brain. There were about a dozen Navy Corpsmen that died in Beirut. Some were friends of mine that I had gone to Hospital Corpschool and later USMC Field Medical Service School training at Camp Pendelton.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.3.2  Kavika   replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4.3.1    2 months ago

It is etched in my mind and will be forever.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.3.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Kavika @4.3.2    2 months ago

I have zero doubt of that Sir.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
5  Greg Jones    2 months ago

afb083021dAPR20210830044504.jpg

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
5.1  gooseisback  replied to  Greg Jones @5    2 months ago

This is sad but 100% true.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
5.2  dennis smith  replied to  Greg Jones @5    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago

If the media would prefer to hear lies, misinformation and conspiracy theories from their leader, they could back Trump for 2024.  Truth, logic and reason be damned - publish whatever will sell the most.  I gave up on the possibility of reading honest unbiased news years ago. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
6.1  dennis smith  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  dennis smith @6.1    2 months ago

Deflection?  Deflection from what?  It's an opinion by a person who has had experience as editor of a newspaper.  What did YOU ever have to do with reporting the news?

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
7  freepress    2 months ago

When the right wing propaganda machine seized on the "fake news" idiocy and "alternative facts" to explain away all actual truth, then the truth becomes a moot point to those who willfully ignore or dismiss the truth.

They claim religion but embrace lies, they claim "back the blue" but ignore that Covid has taken the lives of more officers since Covid hit than any other reason, they say "support the troops" but ignore the fact it took a Democrat to support the troops by bring them home and not sending our young people to die in pointless never ending war.

It has come to the point where all reality and all common sense and all truth have been abandoned for the sake of clinging to the very political party who has been in power more often and created so many problems.

It's like they have been lied to so long and believed Republican career politicians talking points for so long they simply cannot admit their mistake in that support. Taking the path of least resistance and accepting the "daddy figure" authoritarianism along with a lot of lies as the only way to exist. It is like an addiction to lies that will never be given up. It is an entrenched ideology now and all they can do is accuse others of what deep down they know the Republican party actually does.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  freepress @7    2 months ago
It is like an addiction to lies that will never be given up.

Yep. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.2  Tessylo  replied to  freepress @7    2 months ago

I say it all the time but it bears repeating - they have become the party of projection, deflection, and denial . . . . . . . . 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
7.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  freepress @7    2 months ago

Funny how a lot of conservatives feel exactly the same about the hard core liberal left! Impasse I guess.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.3.1  Tessylo  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @7.3    2 months ago

Who, in your mind, are the 'hard core liberal left'?  

They appear to be your go to, for lack of a better word, scapegoat or boogie man.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
7.3.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Tessylo @7.3.1    2 months ago

Whatever answer I would give, you would just deny, deflect, and insult as usual. I'm not going to play your game. Go find somebody else.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
7.3.3  dennis smith  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @7.3.2    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8  Tessylo    2 months ago

I wasn't playing games.  I have never insulted you.  Sounds like you're projecting

You're the one who is insulting me.  I just asked a question

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
8.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Tessylo @8    2 months ago

And that question might have possibly have been acceptable if you had not talked on the second sarcastic comment after it. Good bye.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @8.1    2 months ago

Whatever . . . . got to have the last word eh?

Proceed . . . 

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
8.2  MonsterMash  replied to  Tessylo @8    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
squiggy
Freshman Quiet
9  squiggy    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1  dennis smith  replied to  squiggy @9    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
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