Arizona audit draft report confirms Biden beat Trump in 2020
Category: News & Politics
Via: john-russell • 3 years ago • 138 commentsBy: Jen Fifield and Robert Anglen (The Arizona Republic)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Jen FifieldRobert AnglenArizona Republic View CommentsView Comments 
A monthslong hand recount of Maricopa County's 2020 vote confirmed that President Joe Biden won and the election was not "stolen" from former President Donald Trump, according to early versions of a report prepared for the Arizona Senate.
The three-volume report by the Cyber Ninjas, the Senate's lead contractor, includes results that show Trump lost by a wider margin than the county's official election results. The data in the report also confirms that U.S. Sen. Mark Kelly won in the county.
The official results are set to be presented to the Senate at 1 p.m. Friday. Several versions of the draft report, titled "Maricopa County Forensic Audit" by Cyber Ninjas, circulated prematurely on Wednesday and Thursday. Multiple versions were obtained by The Arizona Republic.
The Cyber Ninjas and their subcontractors were paid millions to research and write the report by nonprofits set up by prominent figures in the "Stop the Steal" movement and allies of Donald Trump, but Cyber Ninjas CEO Doug Logan said that would not influence their work.
The draft reports reviewed by The Republic minimize the ballot counts and election results and instead focus on issues that raise questions about the election process and voter integrity.
Election analysts say those findings are misleading and built on faulty data.
The draft report shows there was less than a 1,000-vote difference between the county's certified ballot count and the Cyber Ninjas' hand count.
The hand count shows Trump received 45,469 fewer votes than Biden. The county results showed he lost by 45,109.
The draft audit report says, however, the election results are inconclusive.
Maricopa County Board Chairman Jack Sellers said the overall results in the draft report confirm "the tabulation equipment counted the ballots as they were designed to do, and the results reflect the will of the voters."
"That should be the end of the story," he said. "Everything else is just noise."
Logan declined to comment through his spokesperson Rod Thomson.
The draft report comes in three parts adding up to about 110 pages. It includes recommended changes to state elections law and suggestions for how the county should correct certain election processes, including how to keep voter information updated, ballot handling and voting machine security.
It recommends that a few concerns be investigated by the Arizona attorney general.
Tom Liddy, a deputy Maricopa County attorney, on Thursday, provided The Republic with a copy of a document the county received.
Liddy said he could not verify the document he had was an official Cyber Ninjas document because the county did not get it from the Senate. He declined to say who provided it to the county but said that someone dropped it off Wednesday at the Maricopa County Attorney's Office.
Benny White, a prominent Pima County elections consultant, also provided a line-by-line analysis of a draft report he received. It had no connection with the county.
The presidential and U.S. Senate results in the document provided to the county match with White's copy. He did not provide The Republic with the copy he had, but he verbally confirmed that the results were the same.
The presidential and Senate results from the recount were found in the third volume of the draft. The first volume, the executive summary, focuses on pointing out concerns Cyber Ninjas and its subcontractors have with the county's election, raising questions about whether there was election fraud and further casting doubt on the integrity of the process.
After they lost a court battle and had to hand over election materials to the Senate earlier this year, county officials did not participate in the audit and did not answer most of the questions the Senate's contractors had about the county's election processes. The contractors had no prior election experience, other than their involvement with the "Stop the Steal" movement.
Election consultants from across the country warned before the release of the results to be skeptical of the findings because they say the methods were sloppy, insecure, lacked bipartisan oversight and were unlikely to produce accurate results.
Those who obtained copies of the draft report were already dissecting it.
White said the Senate is raising bogus concerns in a way that will shift focus from the fact that the audit found Trump lost the election by numbers that closely matched the county's.
"I'm outraged at what the Senate has done, what it is doing here," he said Thursday. "They have not involved any election officials in this audit. They have not involved any county officials."
White is part of a three-man team dubbed "The Audit Guys," who have analyzed election and voting processes nationwide. He said that his team is preparing a rebuttal to the report that will demonstrate section by section how the Cyber Ninjas got it wrong.
"The Ninjas don't understand Arizona's voting laws," he said. "They don't understand the structure of voting systems."
He called out the draft report's failure to provide specific breakdowns of the count in the report, including key voting elements such as boxes, batches and precinct information that would allow experts to burrow into the data.
"We've demonstrated in the past that if they produce those counts, we are going to destroy those reports," he said. "They have wasted $6-$7 million and months of people's time on something that is just not credible."
One of the most significant problems is the Cyber Ninjas' reliance on a commercial database to verify voters. White said. He called the methodology sloppy and said experts who do this for a living instead would use data directly from the County Recorder's Office, not data from a third party.
White disputes Senate President Karen Fann's claim that she launched the audit to improve election integrity. He said the draft report went out of its way to ensure findings would raise doubts about the process when the counts didn't show fraud.
"It was a conspiracy to keep Donald Trump in power by extraconstitutional means," he said.
Sellers said he suspects the supervisors will be "accused once again of not cooperating, failing to fill holes in the knowledge of the Senate's chosen contractor."
"How could we cooperate with an inquiry that was led by people who have no idea how to run any election, let alone one in the second-largest voting district in the United States?" he said. "The Board approved the election plan, we hired and supported our election experts, and they produced a well-run and accurate election in accordance with Arizona law."
Reach the reporter at jen.fifield@azcentral.com or at 602-444-8763. Follow her on Twitter @JenAFifield.
Reach the reporter at robert.anglen@arizonarepublic.com or 602-444-8694. Follow him on Twitter @robertanglen.
Support local journalism. Subscribe to azcentral.com today.
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Biden gained a net of 300 or so votes in a county where Trump devotees said there was massive fraud perpetrated by Democrats.
This farce went on for six months.
Will it slow the lies down? Not likely. Trump bullied Texas Gov. Greg Abbott into announcing last night that Texas will conduct an "audit" of last years presidential election in four Democratic counties.
I haven't heard the total cost of this fiasco yet either. You also have to factor in the cost of replacing all the voting machines that the Cyber Ninjas tampered with. Those are no longer certified and cannot be used again.
What a hugely disappointing thought.
To date, Trump's shitty shenanigans have costs taxpayers $519 million freaking dollars nationwide. Source
I think he should be forced to repay the taxpayers all that money
Interesting ....
Not really... Predictable is the word I would use.
it took that legion of morons months to do what election officials were required to do in days. every local yokel trumpster that was involved in this farce deserves to be doxed and the arizona republican party should be held accountable for the cost of replacing the voting machines that were tampered with.
Opinions do vary .....
Expect the conspiracy forces to claim that the Maricopa results are not representative of the state as a whole.
Conspiracies never really end.
You are correct. Some still believe the Russia, Russia, Russia crap.
You love conspiracies so maybe you know something others dont know.
That's rich, considering that TDS was the greatest conspiracy generator in modern history.
And it's not even close .......
There is no such thing as TDS.
It should be a CoC violation. I'm tired of it.
[Deleted]
Distraction and deflection.
Projection, deflection, and denial, which is all some have.
[Deleted]
me, too
"A draft report of the audit of the 2020 election results in the state's Maricopa County, ahead of its official release Friday, concluded Democrat Joe Biden received more votes for president than incumbent Republican Donald Trump but flagged as many as 44,000 votes as "critical."
Roughly half of the flagged votes fell into the category of "Mail-in Votes without Ballots Received.”
That is the real takeaway. There is still plenty of problems with Mail-in-voting. It's not an issue of who won. It's an issue of restoring confidence in elections.
The actual election officials in Arizona, not the clueless cyberninjas, say that the people making the claims you suggest simply do not understand Arizona election procedures. There was no wrongdoing and no bad results.
It must have been the 'Deep State'
Even better - It was Republican led. If you read what I said, that is not an issue for me.
Or are you looking for someone to say the Arizona election was stolen? I doubt you'll find anyone.
Oh Vic, I can almost promise you people like Starnes, Hannity and Carlson will come up with a conspiracy theory by the end of the day that many will believe 100%.
Obviously, I wasn't refering to everyone in the universe, only our members.
I'll let you off the hook on the promise. I won't hold you to it.
Look how many claim to this day that the election was stolen from the big fat pig who waddled out of the White House on 1/20/21.
You can't be serious. Your main squeeze Trump says it every, single, day.
Donald Trump isn't a member of NT
Though you obviously DO have an issue with believing that Republican led body Vic. They debunked the very bullshit that you claim is the 'real takeaway' MONTHS ago.
Yet the RW MO of late seems to be to brazenly rinse and repeat the same fallacious bullshit ad nauseam.
The Goebbels standard of debate has run it's course.
that's too bad, I love deleting white supremacist autocrats, and then watching them meltdown...
WHERE?
You've been called
[Deleted]
Have you already forgotten your assertion Vic?
As I stated, and as illustrated by John's link in 4.5, the Republican led Mariposa Co. election board debunked the Cyber Ninja's false claims months ago.
If you believed the Republican led Mariposa Co. election board, there would be no 'issue of restoring confidence in the elections' nor any desire to pose John Solomon's bullshit 'questions'.
You are wrong on two counts.
First you couldn't show where I disagreed with the report. Like John, you want somebody to say it was stolen. There is nobody here vdoing that.
Second the Arizona election was not perfect. Whenever there are mail-in-ballots there are problems.
No need for an apology.
And just how do you know that?
There are Republican states that have used mail in voting for years and years. Maybe we should throw all those elected Republican officials out of congress and the statehouses until we can figure out what the hell is going on?
'WE' are discussing YOUR comments Vic, NOT the report. I made no such claim or inquiry.
YOU made an assertion which you have failed to support or answer questions about. Instead, as is your practice, you've deflected and evaded.
The veracity of the claim in the link you block quoted has been debunked long ago by those who you falsely claim to believe.
Oh and since there is no link to the actual report, I for one wouldn't make an assertion as to it's veracity, but you be you.
Another strawman fallacy Vic.
BTFW, the irony of the fact that YOU vote via mail in ballot isn't lost to me...
Said by someone who mails in their vote.
Is it possible the Mariposa republicans aren't the right kind of republicans?
The longer that this charade went on the more obvious that became.
The 'Republican led' election board has been pissed off from the get go about the false claims and innuendo spewed by the Cyber Ninjas and they have been jumping in and 'correcting the record' by posting FACTS about Arizona's election laws, about which the Ninjas have proven to be willfully ignorant.
WA. has been voting by mail for decades, no problems.
Colorado also. Primary method of voting is through mail. No problems.
Disingenuous tripe ....... none were national elections with the compilations that went along with that race nationally during a Pandemic and how many were close races like the POTUS election? Certainly not all of them, probably very few of them so why would anyone question those races?
They wouldn't .....
if what trumpsters claimed happened was true, none of them would have won.
Nope, wrong again.
But were they not on the same ballot? I'm thinking they were. How does that play out with Chinese paper if it's all on the same ballot?
So since you insist that is the 'takeaway, please explain:
WTF does "Mail-in Votes without Ballots Received.” mean?
What standards qualify such a designation? Were those ballots counted in the 'recount' or not?
Why were the other 'roughly' 22,000 votes flagged?
I did.
No you didn't Vic.
Why reply when you have no intention of answering what was asked?
Why not just admit you don't know?
I'm not contesting the results, but I think it's a good opportunity to make elections more credible.
Here is what we need to know:
(questions raised by John Solomon)
I think they are going to look at all of it.
Well I think 'what we need to know' right now is the answer to the questions I put to YOU about YOUR assertion Vic.
BTW, fuck John Solomon.
John Solomon's tactic there is to throw everything at the kitchen wall.
He is not taken seriously as a journalist.
I think what we need to know is how you came to the conclusion that I "have an issue with believing that Republican led body"?
I'm waiting Dulay.
Every point is nonsense.
These issues are all addressed during the counting of the votes.
The Republican led Maricopa County Election Board counted the votes THREE TIMES.
That should have been the end of it as the count never varied and the result was unchanged.
John Solomon is a muckraker and purveyor of yellow journalism.
So much so that Circa, The Hill and Fox Entertainment all parted ways with Solomon who has since
started the already discredited Just the News website.
I know Solomon was being investigated for potential criminal activity in conjunction with Giuliani's meddling in the affairs of the country of Ukraine. I'm not sure if that investigation is still ongoing, but I dont recall hearing it ended.
Solomon creates conspiracies, then makes them into news stories ie., Hunter, Burisma, Rudy, Les, et.al.
Solomon is only on the periphery of the federal probe into Rudy & Les's efforts to oust the US Envoy.
"So much so that Circa, The Hill and Fox Entertainment all parted ways with Solomon who has since
started the already discredited Just the News website."
Which a certain member posts articles from or cites ALL THE TIME.
Sorry dear, but this:
Roughly half of the flagged votes fell into the category of "Mail-in Votes without Ballots Received.”
...says otherwise. That has been Trump's go-to election fraud reasoning. That you bring it up here time and time and time again, keeps that pile of steaming dog-do alive.
And restoring confidence in elections? What about the recent changes to the voting regulations, especially those that target rural areas where people of color are the majority? Maybe that restores confidence in your world, but it damn sure doesn't restore the confidence of those who will not be able to vote because of recently implemented restrictions.
Rural areas are where people of color are the majority?!?
[deleted]
[REALLY!??]
Strawman fallacy.
No it does not.
I am in total agreement with the findings including:
"But the report still claimed the election had problems, though Maricopa County said the audit was “littered with errors & faulty conclusions.”
Sorry dear
The Arizona election officials say no.
I will believe the Arizona election officials.
Especially since the recount of Maricopa County by the "auditors" reinforced the fairness of the election result.
Nothing will stop the Trump crazies from whining from here to eternity though. That is who they are now.
Stop it John. I agreed with the report. You want somebody who doesn't.
You continue to say there were problems with the election. No, there werent. The election officials in Arizona say there werent.
Continuing on saying there were problems is a conspiracy theory.
Those aren't 'findings' Vic, that's a statement by the WSJ author.
If you agree with the report, which I presume includes the claim that you insist is the 'real takeaway' of all of this, that proves that you DO have an issue with believing the Republican led election board.
Thanks for playing.
Yeah, really. But I forgot a couple of important demographics: People living in poverty, and people of age that have no means of accessing polling locations.
So laugh all you want. Agreeing with voter suppression isn't a good look ...especially on you.
From your link...............
"What's False
Brett asserted his decision was not racially-motivated or an attempt to prevent seniors from voting, but rather an enforcement of county policy on political activities taking place on county property and the avoidance of potential liability for allowing an unfamiliar external group to escort seniors away from the center."
Yes really. Try driving from Mobile AL to Dothan to Albany GA via US 52 and 62.
All rural, 75% people of color.
Wow...you really need to get out more. Most of the towns in Southeast Arkansas (which is quite rural, btw) are at least 50% African American. I've been through there quite often. In Northern Arkansas towns are mostly white. But the majority of Arkansas' crops are grown in Eastern and SE Arkansas. I think there's a correlation there
Anybody can lie especially people who have something to lose
Wow you cherry picked the south. Now, head on up north of the Mason-Dixon line and tell me about the rural areas up there..........and be careful. I know of that which I speak.
So you don't think they have such enforcement of county policy on political activities taking place on county property and the avoidance of potential liability for allowing an unfamiliar external group to escort seniors away from the center? Seems to me that Snope ruled that as "What is true"
If any cherry picky is being done, it is by you. The question was clear enough.
It has nothing to do with your deflection.
Certain voting regulations are being challenged because they seen to target areas where people of color are the majority.
Better?
Especially, Harrison Arkansas, the KKK, and Nazi party have a strong presence there.
This billboard is on highway 65 which runs right through the center of Harrison.
I understand what you and SP are saying but it isn't a nationwide condition. I stand corrected and was partially wrong and you guys were right......errrr correct LOL
Why would someone escort seniors away from their polling place?
Much better but see 4.4.18 too. I was partially wrong and you are right with your changed wording. Thank you and sorry I stirred shit. Wasn't thinking I guess.
Consider why the Northern US has mostly white people in the rural areas? They didn't use slaves. They worked their own farms or hired people...this was back before modern machinery. African Americans moved to the cities of the North to get jobs in manufacturing especially in steel mills and car manufacturing.
They were private busses not authorized to take the residents TO the polls not away from and the county didn't want to be responsible should something have happened to them.
I have heard about that billboard but I haven't been to Harrison in years, so I never saw it.
My own little town has a Robert E Lee parade the same day as MLK day. Or used to
Wasn't that the doings of one William Jefferson Clinton? I think I remember reading/hearing that.
I don't know. They didn't start the doing the parade until a few years after I moved to my small town.
And frankly, the Clintons bore me. They were news 30 years ago and are irrelevant now
I thought it was a statewide "special" day also. Or have they gotten rid of it?
It was still there in the summer of 2020, probably still is.
The parade is local...but the day is now MLK/Robert E Lee day. Little Rock honors MLK
... like entering a voting booth.
The vast majority of the states that have passed NEW restrictive voting laws are in the south Jim.
Montana and Iowa are the only ones north of the Mason-Dixon line. Montana doesn't even have POC in it's urban areas. Iowa has a less than 4% AA population.
NO state north of the Mason-Dixon has more than 16% AA population. Conversely, many southern states have over 30% AA population, much of it rural.
Not funny
apnews.com /article/government-and-politics-arizona-ap-fact-check-election-2020-campaign-2016-f0c36df59ee1069d65aa6a70a22d88cc
FACT FOCUS: A false narrative of 74K extra votes in Arizona
By ALI SWENSON 5-7 minutes 7/16/2021
Cyber Ninjas, the cybersecurity consulting firm hired by Arizona Senate Republicans to oversee a partisan review of the 2020 election, on Thursday pushed a false narrative that Maricopa County received thousands of mail-in ballots that had no record of being sent out to voters.
The firm’s CEO Doug Logan used the baseless claim to urge legislators to subpoena more records and canvass voters at home , grasping for evidence of fraud even as a hand count of a statistical sample of ballots and two post-election audits showed no proof of wrongdoing in Maricopa County’s election.
The false claim has reverberated online in the day since Logan’s comments, parroted by lawmakers and Republican commentators including Arizona Republican Party Chair Kelli Ward, Colorado Rep. Lauren Boebert and former President Donald Trump.
Yet Maricopa County officials and election experts confirm that the claim isn’t true and represents a misunderstanding of how early voting works in Arizona.
Here’s a closer look at the facts.
CLAIM: Arizona’s largest county in the 2020 election received and counted 74,000 mail-in ballots that had no record of ever being sent out to voters.
THE FACTS: False. The claim mischaracterizes reports that are intended to help political parties track early voters for their get-out-the-vote efforts, not tally mail-in ballots through Election Day. The reports don’t represent all mail-in ballots sent out and received, so the numbers aren’t expected to match up, according to Maricopa County officials and outside experts.
“We have 74,243 mail-in ballots where there is no clear record of them being sent,” Logan said at a meeting livestreamed at Arizona’s Capitol on Thursday. “That could be something where documentation wasn’t done right. There’s a clerical issue. There’s not proper things there, but I think when we’ve got 74,000, it merits knocking on a door and validating some of this information.”
Logan based his false claim on two types of early voting reports issued by Maricopa County: EV32 files and EV33 files. He claimed that EV32 files are “supposed to give a record of when a mail-in ballot is sent” and EV33 files are “supposed to give a record of when the mail-in ballot is received.”
That’s not accurate, according to Maricopa County officials, who tweeted on Friday that “the EV32 Returns & EV33 files are not the proper files to refer to for a complete accumulating of all early ballots sent and received.”
Instead, the EV32 and EV33 files are reports created for political parties to aid them in their get-out-the-vote efforts during early voting, according to Tammy Patrick, a senior adviser at the Democracy Fund and a former Maricopa County elections official. Arizona law requires county recorders to provide this data to political parties and candidates, Patrick said.
Arizona reports both mail-in ballots and early in-person votes at voting centers as early votes, so both are included in the data in files EV32 and EV33, Patrick said.
The EV32 file includes all requests that voters make for early ballots, either by mail or in person, up to 11 days before Election Day, Patrick said. The EV33 file includes returned early ballots up to the Monday before Election Day.
That means there is a 10-day period between the final day of each report, during which thousands of mail-in votes are submitted and thousands of additional voters go to voting centers, request early ballots in person and submit them. Furthermore, the files don’t include any early ballots that came in on Election Day.
“To use these files as an attempt to understand the number of voters who were mailed a ballot or who returned a ballot is misguided,” Patrick said. “That information is obtained from the Voted File, not a GOTV tool for the political parties and candidates.” “GOTV” is short for “get out the vote.”
Maricopa County officials tweeted later Friday that they calculated the true number of mail-in ballots requested and returned in November’s election. According to that count, nearly 450,000 more mail-in ballots were requested than returned.
Rod Thomson, a public relations consultant working for Cyber Ninjas, said Maricopa County refused to answer questions posed by the audit team in private, forcing Logan to ask for explanations in public.
“Mr. Logan never said this was fraud or criminal, he merely stated the facts as they were provided to him and did not have an explanation,” Thomson said. “None of this would be necessary if the county would simply communicate with the audit team when there are questions.”
Logan is a Trump supporter who has spread conspiracy theories backing Trump’s false claims of fraud. His firm is overseeing the GOP audit despite having no prior experience in elections. Experts in election administration say it’s not following reliable procedures.
Jack Sellers, the Republican chairman of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, said in a statement on Thursday that the auditors are “portraying as suspicious what is actually normal and well known to people who work in elections.”
“What we heard today represents an alternate reality that has veered out of control since the November General Election,” Sellers wrote.
___
This is part of The Associated Press’ ongoing effort to fact-check misinformation that is shared widely online, including work with Facebook to identify and reduce the circulation of false stories on the platform. Here’s more information on Facebook’s fact-checking program:
that will never happen with trumpsters now involved in the process.
Then STOP saying elections are rigged when they clearly aren't.
finding self serving solutions for non-existent problems is what some republicans do best.
They want elections to be questioned, not because there is fraud or even the prospect of fraud, it's because they want low voter turnout which USUSALLY means GOP wins.
Even with literally no proof at all, you still have some on the right promoting the, "big lie", which led to the Jan 6th bullshit. And when social media calls these people out on their lies? Up pop the articles about censorship. It's all a big ole circle designed to erode confidence in our electoral process.
I could have told you this was all going to happen before trump was even elected, he said many MANY times that he never accepts responsibility for anything bad. So, when he lost the election, of COURSE he blamed everyone but himself and his base bought it hook, line and sinker. That's what is at the core of all of this shit. Trump cannot accept the fact that he fucking lost and the entire country has to pay for his pathetic ego. It truly is sickening.
So why have Democrats spent the last 20 years questioning elections?
Well said.
IF THERE IS EVIDENCE OF FRAUD, SEAN!
Only you could compare Democrats mild complaints to the utter national travesty we have been witnessing from Trump and his mob since Nov 3.
For starters, what evidence of fraud was there in the national elections of 2000, 2004, 2016, the Georgia Governors election in 2018 ? Let's see those conspiracies!
The Democrats have not lost a Presidential election without claiming it was stolen since 1988.
Mild Complaints??? Wow.
So an elected Congressman calling an election a coup d'etat and a majority of Democratic congressmen asking the UN to supervise elections to make them fair is a "mild complaint!" That's as direct an attack on our electoral system as anything Trump has said. And that's just two examples from 2000. I could go and on and on with Democratic election conspiracy theories from the last 20 years. Diebold ring a bell?
It's truly an amazing psychological phenomena that permits so many progressives to utterly forget their own actions so they can self righteously attack others for their example.
take some cut and paste quote lessons from the resident super thumper ffs
Where's the evidence of fraud in all those elections?
Do you have links for that?
Voicing an opinion? Really?
Oh and how the fuck are UN monitors an attack on on our electoral system Sean? Please be specific.
Diebold wasn't a conspiracy theory Sean. There is a plethora of evidence that their machines have security flaws.
What's truly amazing is the ongoing cognitive dissonance embraced by neocons.
Completely ridiculous. Trump openly asked that state legislatures get involved with sending electors to Congress , even though there was no evidence of voter fraud. And that was before they even turned up that 6 point memo the other day. Trump also asked a secretary of state of one of the states to provide him with exactly the number of votes need for trump to win the state.
I could go on and on.
I provided them last week.
d how the fuck are UN monitors an attack on on our electoral system Sean? Please be specific.
Lol. You need it explained why claiming the US needs the UN to supervise our election is an attack on our electoral system. IF you need that explained....
Diebold wasn't a conspiracy theory Sean.
Sure, sure. And Bush knew about 9/11 , right? I'm not at all surprised to see you are a diebold truther.
You literally make my case for me. It's sad you can't recognize it
Much like I could go on and on with examples of Democrats falsely claiming electoral fraud, stolen elections etc...
It never ceases to me amaze Democrats can spend 20 years claiming elections are rigged against them, and then get upset when the other side follows their game plan.. It's like a PSA about abuse, "Where do you think they learned it from?" Cue cats in the cradle.
Link?
The UN doesn't 'supervise' elections Sean. The MONITOR them and the US has ALWAYS supported them doing so.
You seem to be saying 'good for thee but not me'. That's bad form.
Yes Sean, I would like you to explain your opinion...
Sad deflection Sean.
Are you denying that there is substantial evidence that Diebold machines had security issues?
That 'I'm rubber you're glue' gambit is juvenile.
It's sad that you think so Sean.
ou seem to be saying 'good for thee but not me'. That's bad form
No, I'm saying that writing a letter to the UN and asking for observers because "We are deeply concerned that the rights of U.S. citizens to vote in free and fair elections are again in jeopardy" is directly questioning the integrity of elections. If you can't understand that, there's nothing I can do for you.
Sad deflection Sean.
It's not a deflection at all. You should talk about Diebold all day. Talk about it in every post. It's a request. It's like a warning label for the reader so they know the level of crazy they are getting into.
That 'I'm rubber you're glue' gambit is juvenile
My whole point is Democrats protest and claim fraud every time they lose an election. And you want to justify the diebold nonsense. I couldn't script it any better. Do you or one of your pals when to chip with how Russians hacked into the voting machines and changed votes in 2016? That would make it even better.
You're backtracking so fast I can hardly keep up Sean.
You went from 'supervising' to 'observing'.
You went from 'an attack on our electoral system' to it's 'directly questioning the integrity of elections'.
They utter irony of that is that is just about ALL the right has been doing since even before November.
YOU brought up Diebold Sean.
Your comment is a deflection AND you failed to answer my question. Here it is again:
Are you denying that there is substantial evidence that Diebold machines had security issues?
Then your point is baseless Sean.
I'm not justifying anything Sean. I asked you a cogent question based on YOUR comment. You're desperately avoiding answering.
Many could...
Posting that question cogently would make discussion possible.
I see the desperation has set in. Now you are quibbling over semantics. There's no substantive difference between questioning the integrity of election system and attacking it.
I get it. You've lost on substance so now you flail about looking for some little failure to copy and paste the same exact words to distract from your inability to sustain an argument.
The substance of my argument hasn't changed at all. . I assume people argue in good faith and sometimes forget who I'm dealing with.
OU brought up Diebold Sean.
Of course I did. Because it was the basis of yet another conspiracy claim Democrats used ot claim another election was stolen from them. (see the pattern?)
I appreciate you keep trying to defend it as legitimate. As I said, it makes my case for me.
Then your point is baseless Sean.
Do you think empty conclusions convince anyone who can think? Either start arguing honestly or get a dictionary and learn what words mean. I've led you to water, if you can't understand how to drink it you are beyond my help.
I asked you a cogent question
at question cogently would make discussion possible.
You really need to invest in a thesaurus.
Then you proceed to quibble over semantics in your next sentence.
HILARIOUS!
Oh and BTFW Sean, semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Since we're using language to communicate, it isn't quibbling to address it's MEANING.
Secondly, there sure as fuck IS a substantive difference between questioning something and attacking something. Sad that you fail to recognize that.
Argle-bargle.
What substance Sean? I've already stated that you've back peddled from you first claim. So WHICH argument are you pretending hasn't changed?
I see the desperation has set in. Your use of a strawman fallacy prove it.
No Sean. Which is one of the reasons that I judge your 'point' to be baseless.
I have proven over my time here on NT that my vocabulary is more than adequate to posit winning arguments Sean.
I understand everything you said Sean. I think that you've failed to make a cogent argument but I'll leave it to 'our readers' to draw their own conclusions.
I answered it.
No need.
In 2000 the Presidential election it was decided by just 537 votes in a single State. With Florida in Bush's column, the outcome of the Electoral College was 271-266 — which is about as close as it gets. It was in fact the closest electoral vote margin since 1876 when Rutherford B. Hayes defeated Samuel Tilden by a single electoral vote, 185-184. Trying to use that as your defense of Trump monumentally moronic refusal to admit defeat is just sad.
Because of how tight that race was and the legitimate complaints of hanging chads Al Gore didn't formally conceded till December 13th, 2000 which was a whole 36 days after the election. I think we're something around 330 days since the 2020 election and dishonest Donald still hasn't conceded.
The other dates you bring up, 2004, 2016, John Kerry conceded the morning after the election on November 3rd at 11am, and Hillary conceded November 9th, 2016 which was also just one day after the election. Trying to claim that because a few fringe Democrats, who had exactly zero ability to reverse their party's concession of the election, proclaimed the elections in those years were somehow unfair should equate to what we are seeing now, a former President who still hasn't conceded nearly a year after the election, millions spent by a political party to re-count and re-litigate the election in several States and a party claiming widespread voter fraud of which none can be found, is pure idiocy.
Your comparisons are pathetic. Its like comparing an ingrown fingernail to a broken arm.
President Biden won. It appears some refuse to accept that fact.
Funny how some who voted by mail - in say those others who do are lazy.
True. It's almost like they are completely immune to facts. I've seen trump say something that was clearly a lie and watch his supporters repeat it over and over again even after being show the facts.
They're known as 'true believers', and their numbers are insignificant
statistically the true believers are the bulk of the GOP now, but those numbers are dropping like panties in an evangelical school basement ...
71 million? Not a small number, Greg.
Yes, but he lets them "own the libs"
That is what's most befuddling to me. They, too, are having to pay a huge price, monetary and otherwise, for supporting a man that cares about one thing and one thing only: Himself.
I'm surprised. Given the hysterics on this site about how dishonest and incompetently the audit was being performed the last few months, I assumed the progressives here would be mocking the results , calling it's conclusions trash etc...
Now you believe the audit? Lol.
Most people knew the audit was BS. Same in GA. The people that really have to pay for the audit are the Arizona taxpayers who now have to pay for all new voting machines since the fraudit ruined or invalidated them.
And what did the audit prove? What we knew 3 days after the election was over...Biden won.
No matter, according to the pillow guy Trump is going to be reinstated as POTUS in November anyway.........