Virginia capital unveils monument marking end of slavery after removing Confederate statue | Reuters.com

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  hallux  •  one month ago  •  261 comments

By:   Thomas Jay Warren (U. S.)

Virginia capital unveils monument marking end of slavery after removing Confederate statue | Reuters.com
The Emancipation and Freedom Monument designed by Thomas Jay Warren is shown on the day it was unveiled in Richmond, Virginia, September 22, 2021. Two weeks after the Virginia capital removed a statue

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



The Emancipation and Freedom Monument designed by Thomas Jay Warren is shown on the day it was unveiled in Richmond, Virginia, September 22, 2021. Two weeks after the Virginia capital removed a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee that had...more
Reuters / Wednesday, September 22, 2021 The Emancipation and Freedom Monument designed by Thomas Jay Warren is shown on the day it was unveiled in Richmond, Virginia, September 22, 2021. Two weeks after the Virginia capital removed a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee that had prompted protests over racial injustice, the city unveiled a new monument commemorating the end of slavery. REUTERS/Jay Paul Close1 / 13
The Emancipation and Freedom Monument, designed by Oregon sculptor Thomas Jay Warren, comprises two 12-foot bronze statues depicting a man and a woman carrying an infant, newly freed from slavery. REUTERS/Jay Paul
Reuters / Wednesday, September 22, 2021 The Emancipation and Freedom Monument, designed by Oregon sculptor Thomas Jay Warren, comprises two 12-foot bronze statues depicting a man and a woman carrying an infant, newly freed from slavery. REUTERS/Jay Paul Close2 / 13
Dr Coletta J. Bey takes a selfie in front of the Emancipation and Freedom Monument. The new monument is located less than two miles from the site where the towering 61-foot Lee statue had stood for more

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Hallux
Sophomore Principal
1  seeder  Hallux    one month ago

That was fast!

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
1.1  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @1    3 weeks ago

Yeah  - kinda an oxymoron - a man who freed his slaves and a newly freed slave.

Wonder where the statues of the Native Americans or Chinese or Irish or Dutch or Germans or . . . . . who were taken as slaves are?

Nah - too much history for the "Normal" U.S. citizen to even know about.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.1  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @1.1    3 weeks ago

Why not commission a statue or other work of art on the topic?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
1.1.2  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

Good question - what are they afraid of?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.3  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

You and your group can commission a statue or other work of art for your, those groups interests, respectively. . . don't play games in discussion on this. These individuals and groups in this article have done arduous work and engaged with their political friends and foes over several years, decades, and even centuries to put their projects in their hearts and minds.

Just "poo-pooing" it out of hand, because you can wastes time and energy.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2  Trout Giggles    one month ago

The sculptor is very talented. That statue is almost life like

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
2.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    one month ago

Thomas J Warren sculpture portfolio:

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @2.1    one month ago

He's really good!

 
 
 
r.t..b...
PhD Participates
2.1.2  r.t..b...  replied to  Hallux @2.1    one month ago

Art, once again displaying much more than imitation… but more importantly, emancipation. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.3  CB   replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.1    3 weeks ago

jorgeoliveira14-copy.jpg

Thomas Jay Warren, NSS

I was born in the Mississippi Delta in 1958, grew up along the Blues Highway, and became Valedictorian of Rolling Fork High School in 1976. I specialized in sculpture at Mississippi College under dual art and academic scholarships, graduating Magna Cum Laude in 1980. My real training, however, began when I became an apprentice at the Johnson Atelier Technical Institute of Sculpture in New Jersey. There I studied under the renowned sculptor Andrzej Pitynski, learning each of the skills required to take a sculpture from maquette to finished bronze monument. My aptitude for sculpting the portrait, capturing likeness and character, and encompassing the emotions and memories of historical events exemplify my body of work.

For 35 years I have worked full-time as a professional sculptor. In 1992 the National Sculpture Society presented me with the Young Sculptors Award. In 1997 I was elected as a Professional Member of the NSS. In 2012 I became an elected member of the Portrait Sculptors Society of the Americas.

During the course of my career I have created 53 public art works in 20 states and Canada. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Ender  replied to  CB @2.1.3    3 weeks ago

Hey, a MS delta boy....

Despite the hatred, usually deservedly so, MS has a bunch of talented people....

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.5  devangelical  replied to  Ender @2.1.4    3 weeks ago

it ain't the state, it's the goober relics that are still alive in it...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.6  CB   replied to  Ender @2.1.4    3 weeks ago

:)

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.2  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    3 weeks ago

If I was as ripped as the statue, I would be happy...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3  CB     one month ago

The statue is "gorgeous" and it brings special pain to me. Whether or not the sculptor meant to instill this into the statute he captured something other than being 'loosed' into freedom. The artist in him captures the pain of many blacks in their robustness being whipped into submission through many stripes, policies, and shifting state laws.

If you have ever seen a strong man or woman statuesque in beauty, vitality, and life, being whittled down into insufficiency, poverty, and essence drained away - this is how it feels to have to struggle all your life to be "somebody."  In the words of Dr. William Holmes Border:

I AM SOMEBODY - THE POEM

[I Am - Somebody, by Reverend William H. Borders, Sr.]

I Am Somebody
I Am Somebody
I May Be Poor
But I Am Somebody

I May Be Young
But I Am Somebody
I May Be On Welfare
But I Am Somebody

I May Be Small
But I Am Somebody
I May Make A Mistake
But I Am Somebody

My Clothes Are Different
My Face Is Different
My Hair Is Different
But I Am Somebody

I Am Black Brown White
I Speak A Different Language
But I Must Be Respected Protected Never Rejected

I Am God's Child
I Am Somebody
 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4  Kavika     one month ago

Outstanding.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    one month ago

Looks good. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6  CB     one month ago

The Emancipation and Freedom Monument designed by Thomas Jay Warren is shown on the day it was unveiled in Richmond, Virginia, September 22, 2021. Two weeks after the Virginia capital removed a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee that had prompted protests over racial injustice, the city unveiled a new monument commemorating the end of slavery.    REUTERS/Jay Paul

We have to keep celebrating and uplifting ourselves, because for a very, very, long time we only had each other in this nation!
Of course, we had valuable friends who spoke on our behalf through it all, and for each one of those friends across the spectrum of humanity, then and now, we salute you!

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
6.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  CB @6    one month ago

Although the chains have been released from his wrists, they have yet to fall to the ground. That touch of symbolism is an ominous warning.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Hallux @6.1    one month ago

That is a great observation, although a pile of chains laying on the ground wouldnt provide much of a visual impact. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
6.1.2  seeder  Hallux  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.1    one month ago

The preservation of Auschwitz Birkenau was not only about what happened but that it could happen again.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Hallux @6.1.2    one month ago

I agree.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.4  CB   replied to  Hallux @6.1    one month ago

It is so painfully paradoxical too, because people of color are repeatedly told how unspecial we are as people to the larger U.S. schema yet some are jealous and covetous of our provisions which are meant to lift us up in equity and justice .

Reality_Equality_Equity_Justice-1024x717.png

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.5  CB   replied to  CB @6.1.4    3 weeks ago

As we can see EQUITY is what people need to compete (no matter that it is more). And equity is essential when justice is denied!

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Guide
6.1.6  bugsy  replied to  CB @6.1.5    3 weeks ago

In other words...

Socialism

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.1.7  CB   replied to  bugsy @6.1.6    3 weeks ago

If that is all you got then you have nothing, bugsy. Glad you got yours! I'm guessing of course. Since you have everything you need in life-how about just moving aside and being less envious of the rest of us out here striving and working to get 'jealous freaks' out of our way!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
8  CB     4 weeks ago

It is notable who did not join in this article. Their absences are 'loud.'

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9  charger 383    4 weeks ago

I liked the other statues better

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1  CB   replied to  charger 383 @9    4 weeks ago

Do tell. Share why, please. What do you like about the other statue(s)?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.1  charger 383  replied to  CB @9.1    3 weeks ago

I like General Lee and the statue was pretty and historic. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.2  CB   replied to  charger 383 @9.1.1    3 weeks ago

Frankly, I don't see a need for a statute of any kind. Slavery, and Civil War were inglorious. I only first commented on the emancipation statue because it is 'there and done.'  For the record, here is the "general" I liked back in the day (loved the Dukes of Hazards too):

general-lee-xl.jpg

Now, I don't think I will get an argument from you on this one!

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.3  charger 383  replied to  CB @9.1.2    3 weeks ago

256  

Here is me in the General Lee

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.4  CB   replied to  charger 383 @9.1.3    3 weeks ago

Howdy!! Looking stellar!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.1    3 weeks ago
I like General Lee 

General Lee was a traitor, a racist, and a defender of slavery.  You like traitors, racists , and defenders of slavery? 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.6  charger 383  replied to  JohnRussell @9.1.5    3 weeks ago

General Robert E. Lee is OK with me, I don't care what you call him

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.7  CB   replied to  charger 383 @9.1.6    3 weeks ago

Charger 383! You owe us a better explanation than that to us! We're here with you, for you, and in some case 'under' your service to the cause. As a result, it would behoove you to defend the "good" of Robert E. Lee that we might see it and consider it against what we know of him.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.8  JohnRussell  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.6    3 weeks ago

If racists, traitors and slaveowners are ok with you, you have my sympathy. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
10  charger 383    4 weeks ago

I hope my Virginia tax dollars were not used to pay for this

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1  CB   replied to  charger 383 @10    4 weeks ago

Dollars are indistinguishable once in your state/city coffer.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
11  Paula Bartholomew    3 weeks ago

It is a beautiful piece of art but I have to wonder how long it will before it is defaced by racists.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
11.1  CB   replied to  Paula Bartholomew @11    3 weeks ago

Ugh! A reality check.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
11.1.1  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  CB @11.1    3 weeks ago

Remember the racist lady who defaced the Floyd bust?  She is just the tip of the racist iceberg.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
12  Just Jim NC TttH    3 weeks ago

256

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1  CB   replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12    3 weeks ago

Leave it to Jim to "poo-poo" removal of this nation's shame from everyday life. The removal itself is betterment. Maybe it was making some emotionally sick on a daily basis. Now reparative therapy can began in earnest.

As for you Jim your tone appears depressed: Do you support figures honoring the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces or other vanquished enemies of this nation? How about Hitler? Will it help stabilize your life if Hitler was honored with a statute or plaque?

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
12.1.1  dennis smith  replied to  CB @12.1    3 weeks ago

I agree with this statue removal and not replacing it. 

Do you support figures honoring the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces or other vanquished enemies of this nation?

Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces were NOT vanquished enemies. They fought to win and we were not allowed to.  It was simply a political war for the US mainly by LBJ.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.2  CB   replied to  dennis smith @12.1.1    3 weeks ago

Spouting words. Always looking for a way to spin into a shallow discussion. Sad, actually. It is. . . just cumbersome. Moreover, discussions abnormally elongatelanguish, and atrophy. I mean, we could just keep shoving "patty" back and forth: But, is it helpful?

As for that opening remark. It would have been helpful to further insight in this 'group' if you told us why you agree with this specific statute's, removal and not replacing it. But that would have been too much like talking to me, us "eye to eye," I guess. Opportunities missed yet again.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
12.1.3  dennis smith  replied to  CB @12.1.2    3 weeks ago

Personal reasons why I do not think this statue should not be replaced.

Noted that you declined to mention my reply to your 2nd paragraph in 12.1

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.4  CB   replied to  dennis smith @12.1.3    3 weeks ago

Since you are here speaking for Jim and yourself (I guess) on this statue you owe us more explanation than "personal issues." We can't process that into a malleable discussion.

As to deeping discussion about about Vietnam, I wrote this @12.1.2:

Always looking for a way to spin into a shallow discussion. Sad, actually. It is. . . just cumbersome. Moreover, discussions abnormally elongatelanguish, and atrophy. I mean, we could just keep shoving "patty" back and forth: But, is it helpful?

You should know well my intentions is not to discuss VietNam, but statues of General Lee and Slavery. So distract and belabor the point only if you insist..

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
12.1.5  dennis smith  replied to  CB @12.1.4    3 weeks ago

 Who is the "US" you refer to? My comment was directed to you and no one else.

Hitler has nothing to do with my comment.

How should I know your intention is not to discuss Vietnam when you brought it up?

Your imagination seems to be running amok.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.6  CB   replied to  dennis smith @12.1.5    3 weeks ago

Waste somebody else time, Dennis. We're 'spent.' (Figure out (or not) who "we're.')

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
12.1.7  dennis smith  replied to  CB @12.1.6    3 weeks ago

Your loss

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.2  Kavika   replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12    3 weeks ago

I don't have to look at statues of racist traitors and it pisses off racist/bigots. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12    3 weeks ago

I will second Kavika and CB . Removing that shit from public sight is a benefit to humanity. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.1  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3    3 weeks ago

And, when are the "statues" at Mt. Rushmore coming' down since they're kinda racist and discriminatory and a bane on U.S. history.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.2  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.1    3 weeks ago

So you're interested in "X-ing out" all the racists in U.S. history? All of them? Or just the treasonous and seditious racists?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.3  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.2    3 weeks ago

And, who is to be making the decision as to whether or not they are "treasonous and seditious racists?  Someone who is racist with a "different target"????

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.4  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3    3 weeks ago

Back in the day, JR used to have some really, really good threads/articles on racism.  Lot of discussion - lots of eyes opened after receiving information they hadn't looked at.

Thanks for that John.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.5  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.4    3 weeks ago

Why dont you seed something or write an article that contains your point of view about something that you complain about?

Instead of all this inconclusive and unfocused sniping. 

Do you want to argue about the usefulness of confederate statues?  You seem to think they are ok. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.6  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.3    3 weeks ago
And, who is to be making the decision as to whether or not they are "treasonous and seditious racists?  Someone who is racist with a "different target"????

What on earth does this mean? 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.7  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.6    3 weeks ago

Opinions John - opinions.  Who do we attack now??

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.8  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.7    3 weeks ago

Your opinions are too veiled to respond to. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.9  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.5    3 weeks ago

And that seems to be the issue here.  Was the statue erected in honor of the person or in honor of the Confederacy?

I surmise that if the intent was to honor the person - why not look at the person?  Why cloak distain of a "cause" over the actual intent of a statue that was/is to honor an individual?

No, I'm not/will not advocate for confederate statues the same as I'm not/will not advocate for union/presidential statues as they are, IMHO, attempts at honoring positions/status and not at honoring an individual.

As a Native American, I, personally, don't feel that "White Society" statues, in most cases, honor nothing more than platitudes of how great society was at that time.  Where are the statues/memorials for Native Americans - Chinese - Italians (no, not Columbus) - Irish.  

June 2, 1924 - ring a bell????  Probably not, especially to most people in the U.S.  

Just imagine, if you will, FINALLY gaining/being GIVEN/GRANTED/HANDED U.S. citizenship after going through 432 years of genocide and losing over 50+ MILLION lives, 1.5 BILLION acres of land, FORCEFULLY taken, religions/traditions/heritages RIPPED out of your overall culture/lifestyles/history, having to PROVE, with a card/piece of paper, that you are part of an ethnicity, and STILL have to face more prejudice/injustices from the Great Dominant Society than any other ethnicity in the U.S.

Can you imagine having to go through that John?  Where's our statues?  Memorials?  Halls of Honor?  NO FRIGGIN' ANY WHERE.

So, please, don't talk to me about sniping or honoring.  My question then, to you and to so many on NT is - "Where's the beef"????

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.10  Colour Me Free  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.3    3 weeks ago

Seems to me that indigenous people still slip through the cracks of 'what is racism' or what is seen as offensive.  The terms 'treasonous and seditious racists' are buzz words of justification ....  When the statues of Ulysses S Grant and General Custer come down .. then I will listen.

P.s... the new statue is beautiful ... yet I feel indigenous people should be represented ... the same chains through history have bound them

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.11  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.9    3 weeks ago

You can't build up a sense of justice for the indigenous people by trying to minimize the effects of slavery and racism, and the confederacy. It is all the same fight. You don't like the fact that blacks had a "civil rights" movement and American Indians didnt, although it is really all one movement. American Indians need more progressive advocacy for their issues. I dont think complaining about confederate monuments being taken down is going to help with that. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.12  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.10    3 weeks ago
General Custer come down

Seems the video game has come down : " Custer's Revenge  is an adult  sex video game  produced by  Mystique  for the  Atari 2600 , first released on September 23, 1982. The game gained notoriety owing to its goal of raping a  Native American  woman.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.13  Colour Me Free  replied to  Hallux @12.3.12    3 weeks ago

From the link

Under the ownership of Playaround, Custer's Revenge was re-branded as Westward Ho and given slight modifications to its original gameplay. These alterations included simple aesthetic changes such as the darkening in color of the Native American woman's skin tone.

WOW!  sad and disgusting!  Here I thought I could no longer be shocked .. I am floored by this!

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.14  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.8    3 weeks ago

Or are they too deep and truthful that they can't be answered?

You want fries with that?

What - did my compliment to NT regarding your previous record bother you?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.15  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.14    3 weeks ago

You intentionally try to be unclear. It is hard to respond to. No one is here to read your mind. 

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.16  Colour Me Free  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.14    3 weeks ago

I think you must remember there are those that think there are degrees to racism .. slavery is racism that is recognized, yet the Native American is somehow ignored when it comes to slavery - perhaps it is time that the slavery of Indigenous Peoples becomes part of history being taught ..?  

I hear and read individuals speak about 'people of color' .. yet they never seem to add the Indigenous People to that list ...  the disconnect is palpable..

Peace... 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.17  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.3    3 weeks ago

You're wasting your time trying to spin me into a racist. I enslaved nor oppress anybody. Good grief! I do not even have a "ball and chain" relationship for you to sweat me over. Furthermore, if you can't distinguish a racist or treasonous person from the pack of humanity, that's bad on you. You have already made a separation and it is you want to argue in favor of treacherous people and. . . that is bad on you too!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.18  CB   replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.6    3 weeks ago

I just 'moved' to conclusion. It's takes too long to make syrup out of some of these molasses comments.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.19  CB   replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.11    3 weeks ago

Emphatically. 1stwarrior, needs to be reminded it was President Donald Trump who cherished former president Andrew Jackson when giving Native Americans awards under Jackson's steady gaze at the White House and name-calling Elizabeth Warren: "Pocohontas."

file-20201120-15-1rhjehg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=15%2C15%2C5160%2C3422&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip

So if you don't stand up for something or yourself: You get what other folks want you to have in life. That is: The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.3.20  Texan1211  replied to  CB @12.3.19    3 weeks ago

Gee, those Indians sure look mad about it, too!

/s

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.21  CB   replied to  Texan1211 @12.3.20    3 weeks ago

Bye.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.3.22  Texan1211  replied to  CB @12.3.21    3 weeks ago

Oh, you don't have to leave!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.23  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.16    3 weeks ago

That's full of patty. Actually, we have not forgot Native Americans were slaves of Europeans, (even) of other Native Americans. Additionally, Native Americans (so-called, "five civilized tribes") owned African-slaves too like their White counterparts.

Indigenous people are "people of color." Why you don't know this is beyond me. People of Color is a general term signifying minorities groups in the U.S.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.24  Vic Eldred  replied to  CB @12.3.23    3 weeks ago
Actually, we have not forgot Native Americans were slaves of Europeans,

Acrually we have forgotten that many Native Americans held slaves:

“I used to like history,” Smith told the crowd ruefully. “And sometimes, I still do. But not most of the time. Most of the time, history and I are frenemies at best.” In the case of the Trail of Tears and the enslavement of blacks by prominent members of all five so-called “Civilized Tribes” (Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek and Seminole), Smith went one step further, likening the ugly truth of history to a “mangy, snarling dog standing between you and a crowd-pleasing narrative.”

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.25  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.24    3 weeks ago
Actually we have forgotten that many Native Americans held slaves:

Ridiculous, silly, offensive comment. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.26  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.25    3 weeks ago

I thought you wanted history taught?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.27  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.26    3 weeks ago

Why would anyone respond to comments about Native Americans being shortchanged in historical monuments by bringing up that a small number of Native Americans owned slaves? American Indians were victims in this country, not exploiters. 

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.28  Colour Me Free  replied to  CB @12.3.23    3 weeks ago
That's full of patty. Actually, we have not forgot Native Americans were slaves of Europeans, (even) of other Native Americans. Additionally, Native Americans (so-called, "five civilized tribes") owned African-slaves too like their White counterparts.

Yeah and ..?  there were black slave owners as well .. African tribes enslaved and sold there fellow man as slaves to whites.............

indigenous people are "people of color." Why you don't know this is beyond me. People of Color is a general term signifying minorities groups in the U.S.

Yes they are .. glad you realize that .. however when people are speaking of discrimination, racism and civil rights violations it is seldom that the indigenous are included on this list, African American, Asian and Hispanic however always are .. missing and endangered indigenous women are finally being recognized,, and things are beginning to be done thanks to Senators like Jon Tester.

Bye indeed

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.29  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.28    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.30  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.27    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.31  JohnRussell  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.28    3 weeks ago

People who bring up slave ownership by Africans or Native Americans in the US, as if that says something meaningful, are a trip. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.32  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.31    3 weeks ago

People who are trying to divide this country are dangerous.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.33  Colour Me Free  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.31    3 weeks ago

(deleted)

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.34  JohnRussell  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.33    3 weeks ago

Bring it on. Lets see what you got. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.36  CB   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.24    3 weeks ago
12.3.23  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.16    45 minutes ago

That's full of patty. Actually, we have not forgot Native Americans were slaves of Europeans, (even) of other Native Americans. Additionally, Native Americans (so-called, "five civilized tribes") owned African-slaves too like their White counterparts.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.37  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.32    3 weeks ago

then stop

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.38  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.28    3 weeks ago

First, are you a Native American? You might want to declare your intentions before you attempt to on and around this subject matter. Second, Native Americans know they are under the umbrella of "people of color" as they are the 'least' in numbers. Third, it is a well-established fact that Native Americans, Indigenous people of America, for many decades and periods set apart themselves from the inner-workings of U.S. society and policy-making while being dedicated to 'tribal lands, laws, and policies. Fourth, other groups, mainly Black Americans have striven with their White American (majority) counterparts in civil rights pursuits convincingly and for the duration as it is even now on behalf of all people of color—even the 'silent' minorities. Finally, . . .

Colour Me Free, if you are a Native American, you will do well to engage the processes of policy-making at some juncture and speak up for yourself and your people. We can use your proper support—especially right now!

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Guide
12.3.39  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.25    3 weeks ago
Ridiculous, silly, offensive comment. 

How so, John?

Many Native American tribes went to war with other tribes, mostly killing the men and taking the women as slaves.

Prove I'm wrong, John

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.40  CB   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.32    3 weeks ago

C'mon Vic, really? Trump supporters are not unifiers. Indeed, there are articles on the web about red states/blue states 'separation and ultimate divorce.' Which would be meaningful it for the right reasons, instead we have manufactured problems and outright lying and gaslighting of the citizenry from some conservatives driving up fake negatives between people groups here.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.41  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.30    3 weeks ago

If all you are capable of is bringing up ridiculous squirrel tripe about marxism, [deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.42  JohnRussell  replied to  bugsy @12.3.39    3 weeks ago
Many Native American tribes went to war with other tribes, mostly killing the men and taking the women as slaves. Prove I'm wrong, John

Who gives a shit? Have Native American tribes been running America for the past 500 years? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.43  JohnRussell  replied to  Hallux @12.3.41    3 weeks ago

He has a scenario related to US history that he has created in his head. AKA dog eat dog is good and white Europeans are always right. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Guide
12.3.44  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.42    3 weeks ago
Who gives a shit?

Apparently YOU do. Take a look at YOUR 12.3.25 and maybe it will refresh you mind why YOU give a shit, or is it just more BS?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.45  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.30    3 weeks ago

No Vic. That is called history. Indians don't want anything more, than what the US government contracted with them to do. Even SCOTUS agrees with that. A treaty is a contract. 

Oh, and we would like to be respected. How is that different from you?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.46  1stwarrior  replied to  bugsy @12.3.39    3 weeks ago

We'll Bugsy - the Native Americans used their "war efforts" to replenish their populations through the taking of "slaves".  90% of the tribes/nations, after taking captives, would "try" to integrate the captives into viable tribal/nation members to replace the members of the tribe/nation who were killed/died/captured.  Never saw/heard of a tribe/nation mass killing others just to "gain their space" or "own their property" - something dominant society does so readily when they want what's not theirs.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.47  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.24    3 weeks ago

Most tribes did not hold slaves. And all of those tribes are southern tribes. Where do you think they learned that from?

And really that is a deflection from the fact that there was an active program in the US to rid themselves of Indians. That is normally called genocide.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.48  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.45    3 weeks ago
Even SCOTUS agrees with that.

As do I.  


Oh, and we would like to be respected. How is that different from you?

No different.

How's that?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.49  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.47    3 weeks ago
Most tribes did not hold slaves.

True.


And all of those tribes are southern tribes. 

The same ones that allied with the Confederacy?


Where do you think they learned that from?

The evil white man?


And really that is a deflection from the fact that there was an active program in the US to rid themselves of Indians. That is normally called genocide.

Oh yes, there was. They slaughtered the Buffalo on the great plains.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.50  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.38    3 weeks ago

You do know that Native American tribes/nations are SOVEREIGN NATIONS - countries/states/lands totally belonging to them for the past couple thousands of years, right?  We didn't "set apart themselves from the inner-workings of U.S. society and policy-making" - we were, and still are, INTENTIONALLY kept from being included in any of those discussions.  Look at the number of SCOTUS decisions in favor of the Native American tribes/nations being included in those discussions as a result of the 376+ treaties that Congress ignores.  

However, our wonderous and marvelous DC crowd don't think we know how to manage our affairs so they have to continue "teaching" us - how to be white.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.51  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.50    3 weeks ago

Who is running the reservations now?  Is it tribal leaders or government officials?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.52  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.49    3 weeks ago

Two of the "Five Civilized Tribes" sided with the Confederacy - learn your history.

Yes, they learned SLAVERY from the white guys who had it pretty well perfected.

They slaughtered buffalo as an active program????????  How 'bout they took 1.1 BILLION acres of land from the tribes/nations?  How 'bout they introduced smallpox INTENTIONALLY to the tribes/nations to eliminate the tribes/nations?  How 'bout they took their children and placed them in boarding schools to teach them how to be white?  They killed millions upon millions of buffalo to prevent the tribes/nations from getting food to feed their families, hides/bones for clothing/tools/housing.

Yeah - even though genocide is a harsh word, white society loves using it on populations they feel superior to - such as minorities or anyone who has something they want.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.53  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.49    3 weeks ago
Where do you think they learned that from? The evil white man?

No, some white men (we should say people) are evil. Slaveholders were. And I do not understand this:

Oh yes, there was. They slaughtered the Buffalo on the great plains.

If you are saying that the Buffalo were slaughter to starve out the Indians, you would be right.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.54  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.47    3 weeks ago

The reason that they were called the Five Civilized tribes is that the whites gave them that name because they adopted the white man way including slavery, they bought slaves from the white plantation owners. They were hoping that it would result in them not being forced from their land. Which of course didn't mean shit to Jackson and the whites that wanted their land and it resulted in the ''Indian Removal Act'' and the Trail of Tears. The tribes made a bad choice by trusting the whites and they paid dearly for it. When the Civil War started the south recruited the 5 tribes with the promise of them gaining back their land. Many states in the  north would not allow Indians to enlist in the Union army until later when the north was in need of more troops. Joining the Confederacy split the Cherokee nation and created divides with some of the other five tribes. 

There were 5 tribes that practiced chattel slavery and there were over 600 that did not and many of those tribes were instrumental in helping slaves escape and or hiding them from the slave chasers. 

What most seem to have no knowledge of is that millions of American Indians were enslaved by whites before the unlimited number of blacks were brought to the US. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.55  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.52    3 weeks ago
Two of the "Five Civilized Tribes" sided with the Confederacy - learn your history.

I didn't give a number of tribes. All I said was that some did.


Yes, they learned SLAVERY from the white guys who had it pretty well perfected.

So no tribe did it before the plantations sprang up in the south?


They slaughtered buffalo as an active program????????  How 'bout they took 1.1 BILLION acres of land from the tribes/nations?  How 'bout they introduced smallpox INTENTIONALLY to the tribes/nations to eliminate the tribes/nations?  How 'bout they took their children and placed them in boarding schools to teach them how to be white?  They killed millions upon millions of buffalo to prevent the tribes/nations from getting food to feed their families, hides/bones for clothing/tools/housing.

I learned it in school.


Yeah - even though genocide is a harsh word, white society loves using it on populations they feel superior to - such as minorities or anyone who has something they want.

White society?


 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.56  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.53    3 weeks ago
No, most white men (we should say people) are evil.

On that I'll have to disagree. Most white people are not evil.


If you are saying that the Buffalo were slaughter to starve out the Indians, you would be right.

That is what I meant (and said,)

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.57  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.51    3 weeks ago

Depends.  Most tribes/nations are headed by a leader - governor/chief/chairperson/council but ONLY through the approval of the U.S. government. 

In 1934, the Indian Reorganization Act was passed.  That act was "supposed" be a beginning of the U.S. government allowing the tribes/nations to handle/manage their own populations in accordance with the 376+ treaties that had been signed/ratified by white Congress.  HOWEVER, BUT, the tribes/nations had submit, to the BIA/U.S. government, any newly proposed Constitution for review and approval before they could implement them.  In most cases, the tribes/nations had to re-write their documents 'cause they didn't fit the parameters that the U.S. government wanted implemented.

The tribes/nations have a lot of latitude in the operation/management of their tribes/nations, however but, only as long as those operations/management fall within the guidelines/parameters established by white Congress.  And the same goes for the individual tribal/nation member.  I can't write a will without it having to be sent to the BIA for review/approval because "not all my 'things'" belong to me per the BIA.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.58  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.57    3 weeks ago

So if there is corruption on a reservation in New Mexico, who is to blame?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.59  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.55    3 weeks ago

Read 12.3.46.

'Xcuse me??????  Look at your congressional make up.  Congress remains less diverse than the nation as a whole: Non-Hispanic White Americans account for 77% of voting members in the new Congress, considerably more than their 60% share of the U.S. population.

Yeah - white society.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.60  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.58    3 weeks ago

U.S. government and the pueblo/tribe/nation.  However, the pueblo/tribe/nation will be given the blame.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.61  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.59    3 weeks ago
considerably more than their 60% share of the U.S. population.

Regardless of how the census defines groups, this country is still probably 85% white.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.62  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.36    3 weeks ago

Guess you need to read 12.3.54.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.63  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.60    3 weeks ago
 However, the pueblo/tribe/nation will be given the blame.

That's not what I hear out of NM. I hear the blaming has stopped as soon as those in charge changed over.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.64  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.62    3 weeks ago

I have read it, plus you already told me - every bad habit the tribes took on came from the white man.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.65  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @12.3.54    3 weeks ago

Thanks for filling in the blanks. You gave a far more comprehensive explanation. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.66  1stwarrior  replied to  Kavika @12.3.54    3 weeks ago

Yeah - they "casually" overlook the 25,000 Native Americans sold on the block in Charleston as slaves.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.67  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.56    3 weeks ago

Let me clarify, I updated that comment to say some, which is what I meant to say.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.68  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.67    3 weeks ago

Thank you. I think we can agree (one would hope) that there is good and bad in all groups.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.69  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.66    3 weeks ago

You got that number from?

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.70  Colour Me Free  replied to  CB @12.3.38    3 weeks ago
First, are you a Native American? You might want to declare your intentions before you attempt to on and around this subject matter.

What?  What difference does it make if I am a Native American or not?  Declare my intentions?

Second, Native Americans know they are under the umbrella of "people of color" as they are the 'least' in numbers.

Huh?  Once again, what difference does it make if the Native Americans know they are under the 'umbrella'... it is the country that needs to recognize it..                            ............... 'least in numbers' again what does that matter?  Apparently I am not understanding the point you are making..

Third, it is a well-established fact that Native Americans,Indigenous peopleof America, for many decades and periodsset apart themselvesfrom the inner-workings of U.S. society and policy-making while being dedicated to 'tribal lands, laws, and policies.

There is a reason for this, it is called lack of trust!  Throughout American history the Native men, women and children of tribes across the nation were lied to .. treaties made and broken repeatedly .. the tribes / nations had governed themselves for centuries .. our founding fathers did not know what a 'democracy' was .. the Iroquois Confederacy was used as a model when writing the US Constitution.  

Fourth, other groups, mainly Black Americans have striven with their White American (majority) counterparts in civil rights pursuits convincingly and for the duration as it is even now on behalf of all people of color—even the 'silent' minorities.Finally, . . .

Why should they be fighting for civil rights, it should be a given.  The Indigenous peoples had a beautiful country violently taken from them.. their ancestral language taken from them,  sacred places that were violated .. their ancestral hunting grounds violated .. buffalo herds decimated [the list goes on].. Indigenous means that they were here first.. I am a 6th generation Montana .. 'we' do not even know how far back the generations of Indigenous Peoples go .. 

The African Americans were brought to this country, their history and ancestry was lost as well.  Slavery is a horrid mark, a disgrace of US history.  It is sad disgrace that African Americans have had to fight so hard to assimilate / integrate, to even be consider a person when part of this nation was built off the backs of slaves.   Asian Americans came to this country to be a part of the US, they were abused, yet still they worked to build this nation ...    therein lies the difference Indigenous Peoples desire to govern themselves, as their ancestors.  Their nations should be recognizes, treaties upheld ... 'we' own them a great deal.

Do not want to argue with you CB .. the points you are trying to make I am missing - and that is fine .. we differ in view.

Peace

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
12.3.71  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.47    3 weeks ago
nd all of those tribes are southern tribes.

Not true at all.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.72  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.68    3 weeks ago
I think we can agree (one would hope) that there is good and bad in all groups.

Of course Vic. My intent in this discussion was to clarify that in no way Indians are involved in Marxism. There point that I was trying to make was recognizing that there was an attempt by our government to eliminate an entire race of people. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.73  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @12.3.71    3 weeks ago

Give me a break Sean. This is well established. Those tribes were in the south.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.74  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.72    3 weeks ago
[deleted]

There point that I was trying to make was recognizing that there was an attempt by our government to eliminate an entire race of people. 

I think we can all agree on that.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.75  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.74    3 weeks ago
Just to clarify my point!

Just to clarify, you have no point. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.76  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.74    3 weeks ago

Vic,

Things exist outside the extreme American left. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
12.3.77  Sean Treacy  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.46    3 weeks ago
ever saw/heard of a tribe/nation mass killing others just to "gain their space" or "own their property

Joy of the slaughter then? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.3.78  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.74    3 weeks ago
Then I agree, but I still say that the use of oppressors/the oppressed is a Marxist tactic - now used by the American left

Tactic?    Do you think that the mere mention of oppressors and oppressed is ipso facto Marxism?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
12.3.79  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.73    3 weeks ago
Those tribes were in the south

Slaveholding was not confined to the South. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.80  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @12.3.79    3 weeks ago

Sean, I never said it was.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
12.3.81  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.80    3 weeks ago

Then I misunderstood you. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.82  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.69    3 weeks ago

Phillip Weeks - "The American Indian Experience"; John Ehle - "Trail of Tears"; Charles Wilkinson - "Blood Struggle"; Dee Brown - "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee'; Vine Deloria, Jr. - "Red Earth, White Lies"; Vine Deloria, Jr., - "Custer Died for your Sins"; Jack Weatherford - "Indian Givers"; Jack Weatherford - "Native Roots"; USCCR - "Indian Tribes"; Robert Berkhofer, Jr., - "The White Man's Indian"; Fergus M.Bordewich - "Killing the White Man's Indian"; Peter Matthiessen - "Indian Country".

Got plenty more after you've read those.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.83  1stwarrior  replied to  Sean Treacy @12.3.77    3 weeks ago

Awww c'mon Sean - Wikipedia as a reference????

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.84  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.63    3 weeks ago

NM???  NM hasn't had a Tribal Liaison for over 3 years.  The rest of the Indian Affairs Department has been working with the governor's closely in coordination/conjunction with the All Pueblo's Indian Council (19 Pueblos), 3 Apache and the Navajo, Hopi, Zuni tribes/nations.

90% of the "blaming" has/had to do with political wins/loses - all personality spats - nothing - repeat NOTHING like the U.S.Congress and the Dem/Rep "parties".

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.85  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.69    3 weeks ago

Hi Vic .. 25,000 is actually probably a low ball number, especially when you take into account the US governments 'tendency' to always try and make themselves looks good .. the US government authorized something like 1500 war / raids / attacks on Natives..

Granted disease killed a vast number ...  guesstimates [there was no census among the tribes] Natives may have numbered as high as 15 million [once again I would say that is a low ball number] .. by the late 1800s there was said to be under 240k remaining ..

Honestly Vic, I do not think the accurate numbers will ever be know

Peace

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.86  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.85    3 weeks ago

He is not talking about "the Indian Wars,' he is talking about 25,000 Native Americans being auctioned off as slaves.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.87  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @12.3.78    3 weeks ago
Do you think that the mere mention of oppressors and oppressed is ipso facto Marxism?

When it is used systematically, it is. They were well taught.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.88  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.76    3 weeks ago

Yes a lot of what is good still exists.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.89  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.24    3 weeks ago

Ahh yes - the "opinion" of a white male, who graduated from Stanford University in California, with a degree in Science, Technology & Society and now writes for both Smithsonian Magazine and the World Bank's Connect4Climate division. He is also a published crossword constructor and a voracious consumer of movies and video games.  Published the article 3/6/2018.

Would have been better if you had paid attention to the views of Tiya Miles, an African-American historian at the University of Michigan, who was also a collaborator to the "article" written by Smith.

Tiya Miles is a professor at the University of Michigan in the Department of American Culture, Department of Afro-American and African Studies, Department of History, Department of Women Studies, and Native American Studies Program. Her research and creative interests include African American and Native American interrelated and comparative histories (especially 19th century); Black, Native, and U.S. women's histories; and African American and Native American women's literature. Her most recent book, The House on Diamond Hill: A Cherokee Plantation Story, was published by the the University of North Carolina Press in 2010. She also wrote Ties That Bind: The Story of an Afro-Cherokee Family in Slavery and Freedom, published by the University of California Press in 2005, and a co-edited book with Sharon P. Holland, Crossing Waters, Crossing Worlds: The African Diaspora in Indian Country, published by Duke University Press in 2006.

She, apparently, has a bit better understanding of the trials and tribulations that both, Blacks and Native Americans, went through during the "slavery" debacle.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.90  1stwarrior  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.85    3 weeks ago

Colour Me - the "latest" figures for NA population, prior to Euro advancement, ranges from 80 to 120 million with over 1,200 tribes/nations and 1,600 distinct languages.

A mention by a number of "adventurers" states that, upon arrival to the shores, whose beaches and woods were so well lit with fire pits/lodges, that, even during the darkest hours, it seemed as though it were daylight.  That's how many of the Indian communities we saw upon arrival - and that was just in the early 1600's.

However, the U.S. Census of 1900 placed the Native American population at 230,306, 1910 at 262,355, and 1920 at 223,515.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.3.91  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.87    3 weeks ago

Presumption often leads to 'knowing' things that are not true.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Guide
12.3.92  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.75    3 weeks ago
you have no point. 

Oh...the irony

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.93  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.86    3 weeks ago

Ooops my bad...

My (not so) lil man did an in depth report his senior year of high school so it has been a couple year .. but if memory serves me, it is estimated that somewhere around 50k were captured by other tribes and sold into slavery in Virginia and the Carolinas.. not sure about the dates mid 1600s to 1720 ish (?)  I would have to look up dates..

Soooo that leaves another 150+ years for more to have been sold.  The reality's of what the indigenous peoples endured has been ignored through history - not trying to diminish the ugliness of what the African Americans endured - there is a certain kindred'ness between the two and how the truth has not been told.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.94  Colour Me Free  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.90    3 weeks ago

Thank you for that information 1st .. much appreciated. 

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.95  Colour Me Free  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.93    3 weeks ago

Just texted my (not so) lil man.. he sent me this link

The Untold History of Native American Enslavement (thoughtco.com)

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.96  Kavika   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.95    3 weeks ago

Good link but it leaves out slavery of NA's in CA and a few other western states. 

On Main St in downtown Los Angeles, there was a thriving slave market of Native American's from 1850 to 1870. 

Of course one can go back to the so-called Spanish Christian missionaries that enslaved the local NA population for a century or so. The RCC has made saints out of some of the enslavers.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.97  Colour Me Free  replied to  Kavika @12.3.96    3 weeks ago

I commented to Vic that there was another 150+ years of history that I was not introducing...

Soooo that leaves another 150+ years for more to have been sold.  The reality's of what the indigenous peoples endured has been ignored through history - not trying to diminish the ugliness of what the African Americans endured - there is a certain kindred'ness between the two and how the truth has not been told.

It was not my intent to neglect the full history..  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.98  Kavika   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.97    3 weeks ago
It was not my intent to neglect the full history..  

I didn't think that it was, I was just pointing out that the article didn't cover the WC. 

I doubt that there are many people that know there was an active NA slave market in downtown LA for 20 years, 1850 1870. Or many that understand the so-called Spanish missionaries that enslaved NA for a hundred years. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.99  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @12.3.91    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.100  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.93    3 weeks ago
My (not so) lil man did an in depth report his senior year of high school so it has been a couple year .. but if memory serves me, it is estimated that somewhere around 50k were captured by other tribes and sold into slavery in Virginia and the Carolinas.. not sure about the dates mid 1600s to 1720 ish (?)  I would have to look up dates..

Oh God, don't say they were captured by other tribes and sold into slavery!  We'll have an insurrection right off the printed page!


The reality's of what the indigenous peoples endured has been ignored through history

If that's true (and it hasn't been in my lifetime), then we are more than making up for it now.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.101  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.97    3 weeks ago
The reality's of what the indigenous peoples endured has been ignored through history

You can't forget a single incident!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.102  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.50    3 weeks ago

Sorry to have taken so long a time to get back to you! (Smile.)

And, thank you for some enlightenment from a Native American (NA) perspective. I get so little of it 'out here.'  I would love to hear more of the Native American perspective as often as I can. Kavika and Raven must be acknowledged for their good efforts, but equally more focused input can add dimensions to my, our, online community!

Now then, I do understand your tribes/nations to be sovereign. Also, I do understand for example in California that casinos petitioned (and eventually won) 'establishment' in U. S. society proper through state legislation. My understanding is Donald Trump had a similar 'case' of sorts over NA petitioning for casino/s opening/s in New Jersey.

Moreover, this nation has its first  "person of color" NA Secretary of the Interior Debra Anne Haaland.

How that for inclusion?

Finally, it has been my understanding that NA did not want to be included in U.S. civil society proper and the outcome was to move onto reservations. I mean, I understand it was not a wholly non-violent process (e.g., "Trail of Tears), but are you stating Indians did not consent, but begrudgingly were told to populate sovereign lands?

(I would appreciate learning your perspective on your heritage regarding this.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.103  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.52    3 weeks ago

1st warrior, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, because I am not being patronizing. But, I so like seeing the sharing and 'mixing it up' with truth and emotion. I think it is a side of you that I have not really seen much of over my time on NT. That is, I view you as a conservative carrying the party line and little more.

This is while interesting and refreshing on several levels.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.104  CB   replied to  Kavika @12.3.54    3 weeks ago

I appreciate such sharing. It is important to have it out and about doing a "good work." (I really mean it.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.105  CB   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.61    3 weeks ago
Regardless of how the census defines groups, this country is still probably 85% white.

What does this even mean? And for crying out loud. Communicate your point as best you can (already).

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.106  Vic Eldred  replied to  CB @12.3.105    3 weeks ago
What does this even mean?

It's a very clear cut statement.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.107  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.62    3 weeks ago

To be clear, when I first learned about the Indian ownership of black slaves I was shocked and horrified. It is great to read (and compare) different perspectives on this 'happening' in history. For the record, the Black community does not really discuss being owned by other than Whites. (And even so, it was not all Whites in this country that owned slaves).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.108  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.66    3 weeks ago
What most seem to have no knowledge of is that millions of American Indians were enslaved by whites before the unlimited number of blacks were brought to the US.

This is where NAs can help with the 'heavy lifting' to get people informed about truths of Native American life, political life, and more. Recently, Chinese Americans are becoming more vocal and writing more. . . Mexican Americans likewise. It's all good for us. It helps to 'nourish' the U.S. 'body."

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.109  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.99    3 weeks ago

Enough with Marx ... he is not a topic in this seed.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.3.110  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.99    3 weeks ago

A galactic extrapolation.   That kind of thinking could enable someone to see 'Marxism' in pretty much everything.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.111  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.70    3 weeks ago
I am a 6th generation Montana ..

Okay, are you Native American ? It would help to know  because for one thing I do not comprehend why you do not know NA are "people of color" if you are. Secondly, @ 12.3.28   above I wonder why you think outside ethnic and racial groups should speak up or even know intricate matters and issues breaking out on sovereign Native American land.

I am sorry, and I probably need to clean this up more, but I am seriously out of time for tonight. Incredibly big day tomorrow.

Good night all!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.112  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @12.3.110    3 weeks ago

I see

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.3.113  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.112    3 weeks ago

Talk about off topic and what do they have to do with anything?

That was posted back here on NT in 2015 I'm sure.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.114  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @12.3.113    3 weeks ago

I'm just answering TiG.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.3.115  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.114    3 weeks ago

Still off topic and had nothing to do with it.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.116  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @12.3.115    3 weeks ago

You mean both of us?

Thank you for pointing it out. I have now made a note of it.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.117  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.100    3 weeks ago
If that's true (and it hasn't been in my lifetime), then we are more than making up for it now.

You have been fortunate to know the struggles the Indigenous People endured as 'we' took their land and language from them...  I learned a great deal from my great grandfather ... he encouraged me to see all sides before making up my mind .. he was a young boy on a farm that skirted the Crow Nation reservation .. his father learned from the Crow how to grow corn .. told me the story of Red Scout being given a ear of corn to plant in the mid 1400s .. and how in the early 1700s the Crow acquired horses .. the history is rich!

Not sure what you mean  'we are more than making up for it now' ...? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.118  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.117    3 weeks ago
Not sure what you mean  'we are more than making up for it now' ...? 

What I mean is that we are hearing about the aforementioned struggles almost on a daily basis. I think you and I have been members of two unique discussion platforms. How many times in the past 20 years have we discussed these historical topics?  History is an enormous subject. How often have we discussed slavery in the US and/or the treatment of Native Americans in the late 1800's?

How often are teachers talking about it?

How often are politicians talking about it

Or the media?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.119  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.100    3 weeks ago
If that's true (and it hasn't been in my lifetime), then we are more than makingup for it now. 

Were you born yesterday, that is most ignorant comment made on NT for quite some time,  [removed]

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.120  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.100    3 weeks ago
Oh God, don't say they were captured by other tribes and sold into slavery!  We'll have an insurrection right off the printed page!

Except for 1st already said this. I said it, too. So what is your point?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.121  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.118    3 weeks ago
History is an enormous subject. How often have we discussed slavery in the US and/or the treatment of Native Americans in the late 1800's?

It is and it doesn't seem that you have much of a grip on it. How about the treatment of NAs in the 1900's and 2000's....Or is that beyond your scope of understanding?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.122  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.120    3 weeks ago

Neither of you said that. Look back at what was left out.

Post 12.3.66 Yeah - they "casually" overlook the 25,000 Native Americans sold on the block in Charleston as slaves.

Do you see what is different from that statement and what Color said?



 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.3.123  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.116    3 weeks ago

You are the one who is always off topic - and this is not your article - so you can't delete my comment for pointing out the truth.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.124  JohnRussell  replied to  Kavika @12.3.121    3 weeks ago

People have to understand something, and I can see it in this very discussion. There are white people, in the millions, who believe that white people are the real current victims in this society, because others want to have there be "accountability" for past racism and for the taking of the indigenous peoples land on this continent by the white Europeans. 

These white people want "bygones to be bygones" and if they dont get that response then they are ready to say that the grievances of people of color are "marxism" or "communism". 

How is this country ever going to get beyond race when we have so many tens of millions of whites who want to dictate how the issues will be discussed? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.125  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.120    3 weeks ago
So what is your point?

My point is that when people talk about history they should get it right. The sellers also have to be damned.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.126  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.122    3 weeks ago
Do you see what is different from that statement and what Color said?

Actually, I don't Vic. What you are trying to do is discredit the whole idea that Indians were abused by this government with the idea that a few tribes behaved badly. Do you know what that is like? It's like saying that all Italians are in the Mafia. You do realize that was a commonly held idea by the mainstream population when Italians immigrated in mass to this country.

How do you feel about that? Is that commonly taught in school?

And no insults are not tolerated. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.127  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.124    3 weeks ago

No John, most Americans are good people, but we've had enough from the indoctrinated. And Iv'e been warning people long before it left the college campus and entered our society.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.128  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.118    3 weeks ago
How often have we discussed slavery in the US and/or the treatment of Native Americans in the late 1800's?

African American slavery is being spoken of often nation wide .. not so much regarding the Natives history that I am aware of, not in depth at least - seems to me it is more of a hit and miss depending on what tribes are in your area ....  Are you speaking of things like the Washington Redskin dropping Redskin from the football franchise?

How often are teachers talking about it?

I was not taught much outside of Lewis and Clark thus Sacajawea .. but nothing about her...  General Custer of course was taught, but with a spin on the savage Natives ambushing him - of course I learned later it was Custer's arrogance / ignorance that got the men in his charge slaughtered..    My sons are now out of school ..  It was (not so) lil man that chose to do a paper on slavery...  he had no idea what he would find regarding the slavery of Natives .. honestly neither did I .. his focus then shifted to the slavery of Natives.

How often are politicians talking about it?

Politicians carry no weight with me .. they only talk about what benefits them..

Or the media?

Once again, carries very lil weigh with me, the media only reports that which they can spin to make it click bait ... that said I do not see much regarding Native Americans outside of finally the missing and endangered Indigenous women are being brought to the forefront ...

I think you and I have been members of two unique discussion platforms.

That is a good thing .. once we come together, we can share that which we have learn in a civil and respectful manner - we do not have to agree Vic, we only need listen.. : )

Peace is a very important thing  ..!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.129  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.126    3 weeks ago
Actually, I don't Vic. What you are trying to do is discredit the whole idea that Indians were abused by this government with the idea that a few tribes behaved badly.

No, I'm telling the finger pointers that there was plenty of blame to go around 140 years ago!


 Do you know what that is like? It's like saying that all Italians are in the Mafia.

Lol...And they were!


You do realize that was a commonly held idea by the mainstream population when Italians immigrated in mass to this country.

No. Back then they were regarded as cheap labor and non-white.


And no insults are not tolerated. 

I really didn't mean that for the comment to you. That was for my dear friend.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.130  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.127    3 weeks ago
No John, most Americans are good people, but we've had enough from the indoctrinated.

Indoctrinated with what? You mean these events didn't happen? And how is the truth left-wing or otherwise? The truth is the truth. 

As for most Americans being good people, you might want to explain to me something I saw with my own eyes in California. We were driving up the back roads to Yosemite, when we came into this little town. The local bar there had a sign up that said "No dogs, No Indians". Are those the good people you are talking about?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.131  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.129    3 weeks ago
 Do you know what that is like? It's like saying that all Italians are in the Mafia.Lol...And they were!

No, they weren't. 

You do realize that was a commonly held idea by the mainstream population when Italians immigrated in mass to this country.

No. Back then they were regarded as cheap labor and non-white.

That is correct. Just like the Irish, and the Jews. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.132  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.127    3 weeks ago

Why would people keep saying something so silly and irrelevant as  "Native Americans owned slaves too", or "blacks owned slaves too" as if that will take the heat off whites for taking the Indians land or bringing Africans here to make them slaves?

Those people should just accept that whites were in the wrong in both cases and let our society make amends and then lets build a just an equal society for everyone. 

But people would rather pretend there was justification for this national wrongdoing because "they were doing it too". It is ridiculous. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.133  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.128    3 weeks ago
  Are you speaking of things like the Washington Redskin dropping Redskin from the football franchise?

I'm speaking of all people who are now being hoisted into the spotlight, for various & sinister reasons.

I was not taught much outside of Lewis and Clark thus Sacajawea .. but nothing about her...  General Custer of course was taught, but with a spin on the savage Natives ambushing him - of course I learned later it was Custer's arrogance / ignorance that got the men in his charge slaughtered..    My sons are now out of school ..  It was (not so) lil man that chose to do a paper on slavery...  he had no idea what he would find regarding the slavery of Natives .. honestly neither did I .. his focus then shifted to the slavery of Natives.

Me too on the explores, Custer and the Indian Wars AND that Native Americans were starved onto the reservations - IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!  That was enough. There is a lot of history we weren't taugh because, as I say it is a big subject. I don't know about you but, I was taugh all about who did what to whom as far as the slaves and Native Americans. We weren't taught about all the ethnic discrimination that went on - probably because we were living through it and it is largely forgotten. Funny how that never made it into a history book.


Politicians carry no weight with me .. they only talk about what benefits them..

And this does and has benefited those on the left


Once again, carries very lil weigh with me, the media only reports that which they can spin to make it click bait ... that said I do not see much regarding Native Americans outside of finally the missing and endangered Indigenous women are being brought to the forefront ...

Well, it's played to the hilt in the media and it's all to divide this nation.


hat is a good thing .. once we come together, we can share that which we have learn in a civil and respectful manner - we do not have to agree Vic, we only need listen.. : )

Peace is a very important thing  ..!

Ahhh...that's classic Color Me Free

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.134  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.131    3 weeks ago
No, they weren't. 

Lol...I know I'm just having a little fun.


That is correct. Just like the Irish, and the Jews. 

So, how is it those groups could survive, prosper and assimilate without being duped by a bunch of radical professors?  Oh, let me guess - because they are white and they must be the foil!

That's it!

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.135  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.118    3 weeks ago

Let's do a real simple answer Vic - NEVER - how does that suit your perspective?

Discussed slavery?  A lot when dealing with the Blacks.  NONE when dealing with the Native Americans.

Teachers talking about it?  A lot when dealing with the Blacks.  NONE when dealing with the Native Americans.

Politicians talking about it?  A ton of shying away from the topic of slavery with the Black ethnicity 'specially now with this "repatriation" crap that's going around.  Gotta please the voters, eh?  NONE when dealing with the Native American tribes/nations UNLESS minerals or other monetary gains they can get by changing what/where/why the Native Americans don't need it and the rest of their constituents do.

The media??????  Futch them.  Let's run headlines 'bout a white girl who disappears and winds up being found, evidently murdered.  Oh, the 721 Native American WOMEN who have disappeared and eventually found to be dead get ABSOLUTELY NO - ZER0 - NADA - NONE coverage - PERIOD.

Yeah - good discussions but let's make sure we DON'T DISCUSS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM that's been there for 529 YEARS.

Yeah - I get it - Futch the Native Americans - let's play footsy with the Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and ILLEGAL ALIENS.  Let the Native Americans take care of themselves while we increase their inability to by enacting more and more and more and more laws (See 25 CFR INDIANS with their 342 laws/regulations ONLY AGAINST Native Americans).

No Vic - there hasn't been, and some people on NT try to ensure there won't be, ANY discussion on Native American slavery/bondage/massacres/"imminent Domain" "stuff" with any real discussion.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.136  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.132    3 weeks ago
Why would people keep saying something so silly and irrelevant as  "Native Americans owned slaves too", or "blacks owned slaves too" as if that will take the heat off whites for taking the Indians land or bringing Africans here to make them slaves?

John, there is no heat on me or any other white man or woman living today. And none us should feel guilty about anything that happened 140 years ago.


hose people should just accept that whites were in the wrong in both cases and let our society make amends and then lets build a just an equal society for everyone. 

There are no "amends" John. No balances due.


But people would rather pretend

We all heard what you want. You are not getting it!

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.137  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.134    3 weeks ago
So, how is it those groups could survive, prosper and assimilate without being duped by a bunch of radical professors?  Oh, let me guess - because they are white and they must be the foil!

It was a long hard toil, and yes being white did help. They could pass. You don't see Asians assimilating as easily. Stop trying to blame the boogy man of radical professors. And btw... in case you haven't noticed, that Jews are still on the outside with some people in the US. Maybe you can explain to me why.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.138  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.100    3 weeks ago

You forgot the "/S" on your two comments.  

Why do I say that?  'Cause those comments show your total lack of understanding or "want to" understand what is being written/said regarding a very harsh subject.  

We all know you don't denigrate other's comments, right?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
12.3.139  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.127    3 weeks ago
most Americans are good people

Absolutely, at least 65% to 70% of us. Most of the rest are a collage of white supremacists, religious extremists, criminals, gang members, wannabe mobsters, vandals, anarchists, Nazi's, looters, ammo-sexuals and those with huge chips on their shoulders bent on revenge for some perceived wrong.

we've had enough from the indoctrinated

Definitely, the indoctrinated religious zealots have had their way for long enough, those desperately desiring their white Christian patriarchy to rule America society should give up, it's never going to happen again.

And Iv'e been warning people long before it left the college campus and entered our society.

Oh, I don't think you'll find many of them on college campuses, the subversive religious zealots often ridicule higher education because it conflicts with their indoctrination in a faith based reality, where the earth is only 9,000 years old and the universe was created in a literal 6 days, Satan planted the fossils to fool mankind, there was a global flood even though there's no global geological evidence, evolution is bogus regardless of how much scientific evidence supports it, all the facts they would learn in college might explode their fragile indoctrinated minds.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.140  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.130    3 weeks ago
"No dogs, No Indians"

That would have insulted Vic if the sign included 'no shoes'.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.141  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.125    3 weeks ago

Making a bold statement there Vic - "they should get it right".  Guess, by the looks of it, that you have made yourself the judge and jury as to what is or isn't or what should or shouldn't be considered as "accurate" history.

As far as attempting to be the judge/jury of what should/shouldn't/could/couldn't be claimed as history regarding Native Americans, I'd recommend you stop before you even start.  

Believe me, you haven't "walked a mile in my moccasins".

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.142  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.136    3 weeks ago

Why do you bring up that Native Americans "owned slaves too" , or blacks "owned slaves too"? It is ridiculous.  The treatment of native Americans and blacks in this country was based on and fueled by white racism. 

Why do you want to turn the whites into innocence? 

The idea that American Indian grievance over past and current mistreatment is "marxism" is just as stupid. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.143  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @12.3.139    3 weeks ago
Satan planted the fossils to fool mankind

Hey, I helped and at least he paid a decent wage unlike the other fella who took great delight in punishing good deeds.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.144  1stwarrior  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.130    3 weeks ago

Having lived in Mississippi many years, I would guess that having been told to get the the back of the bus you "Red Ni**er" - by white people - my neighbors - school mates - teachers - leaders of the community - all white people - really isn't a form of discrimination, eh?

But, of course, having not experience it, I can kinda understand why you keep saying "white people are good".

BS

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.145  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.135    3 weeks ago
Let's do a real simple answer Vic - NEVER - how does that suit your perspective?

We talk about it here do we not? 


Discussed slavery?  A lot when dealing with the Blacks.  NONE when dealing with the Native Americans.

I agree on that one. I never heard what you told me here.


Teachers talking about it?  A lot when dealing with the Blacks.  NONE when dealing with the Native Americans.

I have no doubts about the teachers. I am also sure that a modern history textbook is telling the story better now than ever.


Politicians talking about it?  A ton of shying away from the topic of slavery with the Black ethnicity 'specially now with this "repatriation" crap that's going around.  Gotta please the voters, eh?  NONE when dealing with the Native American tribes/nations UNLESS minerals or other monetary gains they can get by changing what/where/why the Native Americans don't need it and the rest of their constituents do.

Let's be fair. The government was willing to stop an important pipeline because Native Americans opposed it. Two major sports teams (one a foundation team in the American League) have changed their names and uniforms, In many states only Indian Tribes can own/operate casinos. No matter how scarce the Salmon become, who gets the right to take them?


The media??????  Futch them.  Let's run headlines 'bout a white girl who disappears and winds up being found, evidently murdered.  Oh, the 721 Native American WOMEN who have disappeared and eventually found to be dead get ABSOLUTELY NO - ZER0 - NADA - NONE coverage - PERIOD.

A white man was responsible (most likely) for the murder of the white girl. Tell me 1st, you do tell the truth, who do you think is responsible for the 721 Native American women who have disappeared and eventually found to be dead?  The media is ignoring that story - do you really want it covered?


Yeah - good discussions but let's make sure we DON'T DISCUSS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM that's been there for 529 YEARS.

We did it here.


Yeah - I get it - Futch the Native Americans - let's play footsy with the Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and ILLEGAL ALIENS.  Let the Native Americans take care of themselves while we increase their inability to by enacting more and more and more and more laws (See 25 CFR INDIANS with their 342 laws/regulations ONLY AGAINST Native Americans).

That is a valid complaint. And we know why, right?



No Vic - there hasn't been, and some people on NT try to ensure there won't be, ANY discussion on Native American slavery/bondage/massacres/"imminent Domain" "stuff" with any real discussion.

Real discussions sound like this one. No echo chamber here.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
12.3.146  Trout Giggles  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.144    3 weeks ago

Mr Giggles experienced racism in Texas back in the 90's. He was sitting at a table with a friend of his and this guy walked by, put his hand up, and said "How". Mr Giggles didn't do anything because what could he do? His dad was turned away from a gas station back when Mr G was growing up and told "we don't serve your kind here". I think that was in Colorado

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.147  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.133    3 weeks ago
I'm speaking of all people who are now being hoisted into the spotlight, for various & sinister reasons.

By politicians and the media?

Me too on the explores, Custer and the Indian Wars AND that Native Americans were starved onto the reservations - IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL! 

Not in my grade school .. American history in the 70s in Montana was 1 quarter long and was taught by the social studies teacher Ms Watson - I so clearly recall her arguing with me about the things my grandfather taught me .. as an adult I now see it must have been her own prejudices that kept her from being able to teach us about the true history

And this does and has benefited those on the left Well, it's played to the hilt in the media and it's all to divide this nation.

I do not think the 'free press' exists any longer in main stream.. opinion based and what boosts ratings is what it is all about these days.  Hard to find non biased reporting.  If you find any send up a flare!

Ahhh...that's classic Color Me Free

Yeah well I seem to have lost my Halo a time or two .. deleted my comments, but that does not change the fact that I was reduced to one line insults 2 times in a row direct at he who shall remain unnamed .. !

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.148  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.137    3 weeks ago
You don't see Asians assimilating as easily.

Actually, I do. At least where I live. I don't know about west coast cities but where I am they have done well.


Stop trying to blame the boogy man of radical professors. 

What are they teaching?


And btw... in case you haven't noticed, that Jews are still on the outside with some people in the US. 

Who are those people specifically?


Maybe you can explain to me why.

Because the American left, for the most part, has become very anti-Semitic (despite that vote of present)

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.149  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.136    3 weeks ago

No balances due??  How 'bout honoring the 326 treaties that the "Whites" have violated time and time again?  That would be a damn good balance.  

But, then again, honoring and trusting and believing anything coming out of the DC crowd is absolutely hilarious.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.3.150  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.145    3 weeks ago
"No echo chamber here."

Not on this article, no but that's what you're trying to make it - with your opinions absolutely void of any facts.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.151  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.138    3 weeks ago
'Cause those comments show your total lack of understanding or "want to" understand what is being written/said regarding a very harsh subject.  

Iv'e heard and I understand and I need you to understand - I'm not to blame for any of it.


We all know you don't denigrate other's comments, right?

Did I slight you in some way?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.152  1stwarrior  replied to  Trout Giggles @12.3.146    3 weeks ago

May not mean much, but tell him/you that I've got your back on that BS.

Sadly, they never know the harm/damage they do trying to be cute in front of their friends.

Thanks for sharing Trout.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.153  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.145    3 weeks ago
A white man was responsible (most likely) for the murder of the white girl. Tell me 1st, you do tell the truth, who do you think is responsible for the 721 Native American women who have disappeared and eventually found to be dead?  The media is ignoring that story - do you really want it covered?

Of course they do. That is how they will find the 721 missing women. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
12.3.154  Split Personality  replied to  Hallux @12.3.140    3 weeks ago

Brownsville TX circa 1920, I'm sure I have one that says no Indians.

512

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.155  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.147    3 weeks ago
By politicians and the media?

Yes, EXAMPLE: Telling a black audience that Republicans would "put y'all back in chains."  That was guess who?   That was done to win an election!


Not in my grade school .. American history in the 70s in Montana was 1 quarter long and was taught by the social studies teacher Ms Watson - I so clearly recall her arguing with me about the things my grandfather taught me .. as an adult I now see it must have been her own prejudices that kept her from being able to teach us about the true history

I learned it from the nuns in the early 60's. How's that?


I do not think the 'free press' exists any longer in main stream.. opinion based and what boosts ratings is what it is all about these days.  Hard to find non biased reporting.  If you find any send up a flare!

The flare is now 25 years old.


Yeah well I seem to have lost my Halo a time or two .. deleted my comments, but that does not change the fact that I was reduced to one line insults 2 times in a row direct at he who shall remain unnamed .. !

I understand - It is the terrible time we are living through.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
12.3.156  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.148    3 weeks ago
Actually, I do. At least where I live. I don't know about west coast cities but where I am they have done well.

Then you really don't know any intimately. While they prosper with school and business, they are not accepted by the mainstream. There is more to the American dream then just doing well.

What are they teaching?

My kids learned the sciences. 

And btw... in case you haven't noticed, that Jews are still on the outside with some people in the US. 

Who are those people specifically?

Is this a joke? How about those people who marched in Charlottesville? How about Marjorie Taylor Greene, who posted about space lasers controlled by the Rothschilds. The extreme right is no less antisemitic than the extreme left. The fact that you want to ignore this, is kind of insulting.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.157  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.148    3 weeks ago
What are they teaching?

I taught drawing and painting. We discussed Kandinsky and Chagall ... oops!

1st wife taught music ... Mussorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Prokofiev ... oops!

2nd wife taught translation French to English, not a Commie in sight ... aw!

3rd wife taught International Finance, mostly the Japanese Keiretsu banking system ... aw, still not a Commie in sight.

Who taught you the boogeymen are coming, the boogeymen are coming? Nuns?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.158  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @12.3.157    3 weeks ago

And the other wives??? jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.159  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.104    3 weeks ago

CB - 1st of all, in the Native American world I live in/was raised in, Kavika serves many purposes - 'specially to me.  He's my leader, mentor, teacher and Elder.  If you wanna know anything factual 'bout Native Americans, he's the "go-to" person  I respect him highly and "attempt" to honor him through my actions/activities.

None better - fer shure, fer shure

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.161  seeder  Hallux  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.158    3 weeks ago
And the other wives???

They formed a collection agency.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.162  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.102    3 weeks ago

CB - I'll try to keep this relatively short 'cause you've opened up a large platform for discussion/education :-)

The Cali tribes who spearheaded the casino legalities did so through their treaty with the Feds and the fact that they are on their own reservation, which is sovereign - two primary requirements for tribes/nations who desire to open casinos.  Cali, as usual, has/is ripped/ripping them off with their "demands" for increased "profit sharing/taxation".  At the present time, Cali is getting 28% of the gross - not net - earned by the Morongo tribe, which opened the casino in 2004.  The state is suggesting a higher rate.

Trump lost his NJ/Detroit casino bids due to falsifying the documentation, showmanship, theatrics,  and grandiose statements  Tribes/nations don't do that

From the beginning of the European colonization of the Americas, Europeans often removed native peoples from lands they wished to occupy. The means varied, including treaties made under considerable duress, forceful ejection, and violence, and in a few cases voluntary moves based on mutual agreement. The removal caused many problems such as tribes losing means of livelihood by being subjected to a defined area, farmers having inadmissible land for agriculture, and hostility between tribes.

The first reservation was established in southern New Jersey on 29 August 1758. It was called Brotherton Indian Reservation and also Edgepillock or Edgepelick. The area was 3284 acres. Today it is called Indian Mills in Shamong Township.  The first non-governmental reservation was established by the Pumonkey Indian tribe and the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia.  The tribe asked the Colonial government to guard and protect the boundaries of the Pumonkey's tribal lands against the overly aggressive white settlers who wanted their lands.

Reservations are where the Feds placed the Native Americans, who had no choice.  The Feds would tell the tribes/nations, in essence - "hey look.  We'll take your 35M acres of land and allocate 3,500 acres of land for your tribe to live on - forever.  No deal?  We'll just kill you all and have all of it to ourselves."  The reservation system ran from 1758 'til 1871, at which time the Feds said no more treaties - no more treaties, no more reservations.  In a nut-shell, that is what happened and it was always to the detriment of the tribes/nations.

The tribes/nations have sovereignty over the reservation, but the land is not theirs - it belongs to the Feds.  The tribes/nations can manage (govern) what occurs on the reservations, but the Feds, actually, have the last word of what is to be allowed.  However, a number of SCOTUS cases have kinda shut the Feds down a bit, but it still keeps happening.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.163  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @12.3.161    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

Welcome to the club.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.164  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.153    3 weeks ago

And John, the add-on.  Missing Indian women investigations are the FBI's responsibility according to the Major Crimes Act.  One trouble is that the FBI only accepts jurisdiction on 15 - 25% of the "Missing Persons" for Native Americans because, as they say, they ain't got enough people to handle the investigations - that's just one of the reasons.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.165  1stwarrior  replied to  CB @12.3.103    3 weeks ago

Keep an open and inquisitive mind - there's a lot out there.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.166  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.145    3 weeks ago
A white man was responsible (most likely) for the murder of the white girl. Tell me 1st, you do tell the truth, who do you think is responsible for the 721 Native American women who have disappeared and eventually found to be dead?  The media is ignoring that story - do you really want it covered?

Of course, all Indians would and I would say 1st is in that category of finding out. Interestingly enough 80% of all sexual assaults on Native women are committed by non-Indians on reservations. Yeah, I'm sure as hell hope that they get every one of them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.167  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.136    3 weeks ago
John, there is no heat on me or any other white man or woman living today. And none us should feel guilty about anything that happened 140 years ago.

Were you not living yesterday, or a decade ago or two decades ago, the 60s, 50s, all that happened didn't end 140 years ago even as much as you seem to want it to. For someone that claims to know history, you're woefully lacking in the last 140 years of US/American Indian history. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.168  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.3.156    3 weeks ago
The fact that you want to ignore this, is kind of insulting.

The fact that you ignored the tops on the list is disppointing.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.169  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @12.3.166    3 weeks ago
Interestingly enough 80% of all sexual assaults on Native women are committed by non-Indians on reservations.

Link please.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.170  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.169    3 weeks ago

Pardon me Kavika, but Vic has been given this information twice that I know of.  Please slap my hand or have Wiki give me her tongue lashing for stepping out of bounds.

MURDERED AND MISSING NATIVE AMERICAN WOMEN CHALLENGE POLICE AND COURTS

Native American women across the country are being murdered and sexually assaulted on reservations and nearby towns at far higher rates than other American women. Their assailants are often white and other non-Native American men outside the jurisdiction of tribal law enforcement.

In some U.S. counties composed primarily of Native American lands, murder rates of Native American women are up to 10 times higher than the national average for all races, according to a study for the U.S. Department of Justice by sociologists at the University of Delaware and University of North Carolina, Wilmington.

Other possible victims have never been found. As of 2016, there were 5,712 cases of missing Native American women reported to the National Crime Information Center.

“The numbers are likely much higher because cases are often under-reported and data isn’t officially collected,” said the U.S. Sen. Heidi Heitkamp, a Democrat from North Dakota, who has introduced legislation to improve how law enforcement keeps track of missing and murdered indigenous women.

“(Murder and sexual assault) is a real fear amongst Native American women,” said Lisa Brunner, co-director of Indigenous Women’s Human Rights Collective and professor and cultural coordinator at White Earth Tribal and Community College in Mahnomen, Minnesota.

“Native American women are victims of violence far greater than any population in the country simply because of who we are as Native women, and what we represent, our tribal nations,” Brunner said.

Native American women still have the highest rates of rape and assault

A new Department of Justice study  shows that of over 2,000 women surveyed, 84 percent of Native American and Alaskan Native women have experienced violence, 56 percent have experienced sexual violence, and, of that second group, over 90 percent have experienced violence at the hands of a non-tribal member . Most women reported they were concerned for their safety, and around half said they had experienced physical violence like pushing, shoving, or being beaten. Over 60 percent had experienced psychological aggression or coercive control. Experts say these record numbers still underestimate the number of women affected by violence, and the infrastructure for women to report and handle incidents is underfunded.

These stats on sexual assault rates among Native women will shock you

A 2010 survey that was recently made public showed 94 percent of Native-American women in Seattle had been raped or coerced into sex at least once .
Vic - I'd recommend you start using Google more in the future so you don't put yourself in this predicament.  
Believe me, when Kavika says something happened, it happened - and you can take that to the bank..
 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.171  Kavika   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.170    3 weeks ago

Miigwech niijii.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.172  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.169    3 weeks ago
Link please.

Have you heard of VAWA (violence against women act)?

It was voted in by congress after years of fighting for it. Native Women were left out of it because republicans fought including NA women in the bill. The NA women were finally part of it the second time around. 

There are numerous articles on it, so to further your historical knowledge you might want to start researching it. 

Here is a start for you. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.173  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.135    3 weeks ago

Tell me, us, your truths. It should be heard loud and clear. Black people have never wanted a 'lock' on civil rights, we are thrusted into the foreground and pinned there by conservatives and some conservatives who keep an eye on our passions, successes, and yes failures. Especially our failures.

I need to hear about Native Americans: Good, Bad, Beautiful, and Ugly. We need to spend our time wisely, making it matter. Getting some 'stuff' off our collective chests.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.174  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.159    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_124_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.175  CB   replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.162    3 weeks ago

Immeasurably thank you. I did not know much, most of this. It helps to get everybody's perspective and those perspectives can go beyond books, news, and 'the loudest voices in the room.'  I appreciate you so much right now for "seeing me" out here trying to learn about other people.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
12.3.176  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.124    3 weeks ago
because others want to have there be "accountability" for past racism 

That's not what you want.  You just want to "feel better". You want to spend some as yet undefined amount of other people's money to buy yourself a temporary respite from your white liberal guilt addiction.

These white people want "bygones to be bygones" and if they dont get that response then they are ready to say that the grievances of people of color are "marxism" or "communism". 

Some white people simply don't accept responsibility for actions they had nothing to do with, especially actions that took place decades or centuries ago.  The "marxism" remarks are made because Marxism is a favored method for seeking white liberal guilt relief.

How is this country ever going to get beyond race when we have so many tens of millions of whites who want to dictate how the issues will be discussed? 

You're one of those.  You refuse to accept that any view differing from your own can be valid.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.177  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.170    3 weeks ago

All I asked for was a link.

When somebody alledges that 80% of crimes were committed by a specific group, I think it requires a link.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.178  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @12.3.176    3 weeks ago

I have no "liberal white guilt" , I have information. 

America has been a racist country from the beginning. When the Civil War ended, the country had race based laws allowing unequal treatment of people of color for another 100 years.  A hundred years of segregation and denial of rights. Denial of blacks and others to accrue generational wealth. These issues are only now beginning to be addressed. 

Your position , is "its not my fault"..   Whose is it then? 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.179  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.177    3 weeks ago

Over the past year, I've seeded four threads/seeds on the topic of violence against Native American women.  Reviewing them, I found that you were a participant in the discussions - and, the discussions included the information provided above.

That's why I was curious as to why you would ask for a link to something you've already discussed with the links for supporting information already included.

Just curious.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.180  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.178    3 weeks ago

Actually, Europe has been a racist continent from the beginning.  They just brought their dirty trash to the states to support a "new" beginning - of racism.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.3.181  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.178    3 weeks ago
America has been a racist country from the beginning. ... Whose [fault] is it then? 

Explain who, alive today, is at fault for slavery that took place through much of our history.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12.3.182  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @12.3.181    3 weeks ago

Is "its not my fault" a reason not to address racial disparities ? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.3.183  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.182    3 weeks ago

Where do you see that in my request?  

Try again John.

You implied by your question (that I quoted) that people alive today are at fault.   Thus I asked you to:

Explain who, alive today, is at fault for slavery that took place through much of our history.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.184  Vic Eldred  replied to  1stwarrior @12.3.179    3 weeks ago
Just curious.

I've already told you. Whenever somebody makes a claim about the actions involving a group it requires a link. Your seeds & articles do carry links, so I have no problem with those.



 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
12.3.185  Vic Eldred  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.168    3 weeks ago
Just curious.

BTW I think this entire thread is beyond insulting. It's been nothing more than virtue-signaling and I see no virtue in it.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
12.3.187  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.184    3 weeks ago

Didn't mean to start something - just an automatic response.

Mea culpa.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
12.3.188  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.185    3 weeks ago
I see no virtue in it.

Kind of difficult to do when you think of yourself as the harbinger of virtue.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.189  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.177    3 weeks ago

The link was posted 14 hours ago in direct response to you. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.3.190  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.185    3 weeks ago
BTW I think this entire thread is beyond insulting. It's been nothing more than virtue-signaling and I see no virtue in it.

Of course you don't. It's difficult when one has blinders on and see's only what they want to see. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
12.3.191  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @12.3.178    3 weeks ago
I have no "liberal white guilt" , I have information. 

Riiiiight.

These issues are only now beginning to be addressed. 

They're not being addressed.  In what universe do you imagine any of these issues are being addressed? 

The only thing being addressed is silly white people's "feelings".

Your position , is "its not my fault"..   Whose is it then? 

Lots of people.  Those who initiated the racist policies to which you refer.  Those who sought to defend them.  

People who still perpetuate racist behaviors.....including.....since you asked... silly white liberals.   You know, the people who take down a statue or rename a school and then convince themselves that because THEY feel less guilty that other people's lives must magically be better. 

The people who never miss a chance to march around and shout at the sky demanding somebody ELSE solve a problem they don't begin to understand.  The same people who love the feeling of righteous indignation at practices that stopped 50 years ago but aren't willing to lift a finger to change the state of minorities in this country today. 

The people who would rather lower academic standards instead of hold teachers and schools accountable for the gargantuan educational (and therefore income and wealth) disparity we have.   The ones who look at a vast difference in SAT/ACT scores by race and then blame the test instead of the people who failed to prepare the kids.  The people who feel all warm and fuzzy when a black kid goes to college but are then repulsed when somebody suggests a black kid learn to drive a truck or be an electrician.

These people aren't actually morons.  It's just that their "feelings" get in the way of their willingness to do what must be done.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
12.3.192  Colour Me Free  replied to  Vic Eldred @12.3.155    3 weeks ago
Telling a black audience that Republicans would "put y'all back in chains."  That was guess who?   That was done to win an election!

Instilling fear [the sky is falling] and race baiting has been going on for decades .. granted, now there is a white supremist hiding around every corner and they are all from the party of (R) emboldened by the Trump presidency ... blah blah blah rinse repeat..

 When Obama was in office ... if one did not agree with a policy of his, that individual was a racist .. it is a game that is played, albeit a rather successful one .. 

It is what it is Vic .. Trump fired up fear of the southern border to win an election .. I am sure you recall this..........

They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people   - Donald Trump

Racist comment?  .. perhaps not... yet hateful nonetheless!

If individuals are so malleable to believe things a politician in a campaign says, or only read one source and accept it as truth, they are beyond help .. there is a reason I support not making voting mandatory!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.193  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.192    3 weeks ago

Hype rhetoric. People are entitled to have their "archie bunker" stereotypical realities and alternate realities. What people are not entitled to is to wage war on properly-built opinions, facts, and truth!

You have no way to determine how read up on subject matter any one else here outside of yourself and those who explicitly tell you what are their specific shortcomings. You have no cause to suggest we can't accept a politician at his or her word—because if, and it is a big IF, you voted for Donald J. Trump, you voted based on his words, ideas, and proposals and nothing more, for the man has never ran for "dog catcher" even to illustrate you can trust his actions-politically speaking.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.194  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.192    3 weeks ago

Furthermore, I take exception and I might as well let it be known here and now, to you and others willy-nilly telling Blacks and even other people of color they can not trust their experiences with racists, racism, and nuanced prejudicial treatment.

I don't need you, Colour Me Free, or any other person to validate my Black experiences in the U.S. of A. for me. That is, you have a large and sufficient enough "job" validating why some conservatives can't cope with leaving liberals the hell alone to live their lives-outside of being a 'model' conservative.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.195  CB   replied to  Colour Me Free @12.3.192    3 weeks ago
there is a white supremist hiding around every corner and they are all from the party of (R) emboldened by the Trump presidency

Surely you do not mean to suggest white supremacists are 'paling' around with god-less liberals and people of color as party officials? It was Donald J. Trump who chose to publicly message to the Proud boys and other white supremacists of their value at his January 6, 2021 Washington rally.

No mere slip of the tongue in those messages. Dog whistling so clear, humans can decipher it!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.3.196  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @12.3.191    3 weeks ago
People who still perpetuate racist behaviors.....including.....since you asked... silly white liberals.   You know, the people who take down a statue or rename a school and then convince themselves that because THEY feel less guilty that other people's lives must magically be better. 

You mean the "silly white liberals" who voted for a self-confessed black man to be president twice and again for a woman person of color to be vice-president, while republicans are still "dicking" around with the concept?

Those liberals?

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
13  Ed-NavDoc    3 weeks ago

Are there any statues or monuments anywhere regarding the Irish slave trade in the USA? Interesting that we almost never see anything mentioned about that but it is indeed a historical fact.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
13.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @13    3 weeks ago

It took less than 10 seconds to find this.   And dont say its just your opinion so its ok. 

The Irish slaves myth is a pseudohistorical narrative that conflates the penal transportation and indentured servitude of Irish people during the 17th and 18th centuries, with the hereditary chattel slavery experienced by the forebears of the African diaspora. Some white nationalists, and others who want to minimize the effects of hereditary chattel slavery on Africans and their descendants, have used this false equivalence to deny racism against African Americans or claim that African Americans are too vocal in seeking justice for historical grievances. It also can hide the facts around Irish involvement in the transatlantic slave trade. The myth has been in circulation since at least the 1990s and has been disseminated in online memes and social media debates. In 2016, academics and Irish historians wrote to condemn the myth.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
13.1.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @13.1    3 weeks ago

Do come down off the lecturing high horse John. I was simply asking what I felt to be a legitimate question. I found the same article you quoted after I posted the question and then just as many that said otherwise and compared and equated indentured servitude to slavery, being a matter of convenient semantics of the times. There was zero intent to argue this here.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
13.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @13.1.1    3 weeks ago

There was no Irish slavery.  Some Irish were indentured servants. Indentured servitude ends at a certain time. Not so with slavery. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
13.1.3  CB   replied to  Ed-NavDoc @13.1.1    3 weeks ago

Indentured servitude was detested by Whites in early America, because it carried a stigma: "Unfree."  Of course, that put those whites infected with indebtedness and social oppression under others in a state similar to chattel slaves, as both types of laborers served under their masters and 'betters.'

Also during their era in time there were considered to be two types of rhetoric about workers: freemen (owners) or enslaved.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
13.1.4  CB   replied to  CB @13.1.3    3 weeks ago

However, the fact that there was not terms in use in the period for what we label "boss" and "employee" today does not mean "unfree" meant serving in the exact duties, responsibilities, and/or receiving the same treatment as chattel slavery! I

ndentured servants did what they were told and "expected" to do under the methods allowed (and gotten away with individually) and that could be rough and tumble at times even "slavish."; chattel slavery were oppressed people and considered 'beast' under their owner's complete and utter control!

And yes, the term, slave, was the rhetoric of the day for anyone laboring under the authority of another-as the rules of workers and how to speak of distinctions overall were yet to be parsed.

My understanding is, a visitor could come to the door of another's home, be greeted by an indentured servant and would (insultingly) ask to speak with his or her "Master" about some matter of interest. And the (indentured and insulted) servant would have to explain that as a white person they were not owned by any 'master.'

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
13.2  Colour Me Free  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @13    3 weeks ago
Are there any statues or monuments anywhere regarding the Irish slave trade in the USA.

They are lost under the heading of 'indentured servitude' .. my great great grandparents on my mom's mothers side were sold into servitude as young children under the guise of there being a time limit once debt was paid .. for them it never happened til the farmer that 'owned' them died 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
13.2.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Colour Me Free @13.2    3 weeks ago

The story of the Irish in America is unique. It totally defies the opressor/opressed narrative.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
13.2.2  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @13.2.1    3 weeks ago
The story of the Irish in America is unique

It's unique to any country they emigrated to ... though perhaps not as unique as the London Scotts.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
13.2.3  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @13.2.2    3 weeks ago

The regiment, restaurant or ball team?

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
13.2.4  seeder  Hallux  replied to  1stwarrior @13.2.3    3 weeks ago

The London Scotts were the 2nd born and on downward. Not being the first born they inherited nothing and were sent to British Universities as a recompense; many of them emigrated to N.A. were they built just about everything of stature (banks, universities, gov. buildings) A fascinating history by Arthur Herman titled: How the Scots Invented the Modern World THE TRUE STORY OF HOW WESTERN EUROPE'S POOREST NATION CREATED OUR WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
13.2.5  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @13.2.2    3 weeks ago
It's unique to any country they emigrated to

No, not in the way I mean.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
13.2.6  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @13.2.4    3 weeks ago

I'll be darned - didn't see any links regarding Scottish generationalism.

Cool.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
13.3  Split Personality  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @13    3 weeks ago

They were indentured servants or sold as such to the Railroad companies and such to pay off debts.

The railroad workers were treated much worse than slaves.

There's an archeological dig near my Philadelphia home where they found a mass Irish grave site of Rail Road workers

most of whom died of cholera, a few of whom were murdered.

Fun stuff to research.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
14  seeder  Hallux    3 weeks ago

Your sins are not absolved because someone somewhere else committed the same sins. The 'they did it too' argument is the leakiest of buckets drenching the ground in hypocrisy. 

 
 
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