Should Columbus Day and Indigenous People's Day Co-exist ?

  

Category:  News & Politics

By:  john-russell  •  2 weeks ago  •  127 comments

Should Columbus Day and Indigenous People's Day Co-exist ?


Some U.S. states have both a Columbus Day and an Indigenous People's Day . 

Is that ok , or if you oppose Columbus, does he have to be removed from any place of honor? 

Many Italians believe that ending Columbus Day is a slap in the face to their ethnicity. 

Is that a good enough reason to keep Columbus Day ? 


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  author  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

I would like to see a search for another Italian American icon to honor with a day to replace  Columbus.

Here's one 

John Basilone  (November 4, 1916 – February 19, 1945) was a  United States Marine Corps   gunnery sergeant  who received the  Medal of Honor  for heroism above and beyond the call of duty during the  Battle for Henderson Field  in the  Guadalcanal campaign , and the  Navy Cross  posthumously for extraordinary heroism during the  Battle of Iwo Jima . He was the only enlisted Marine to receive both of these decorations in  World War II .

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
2  Nerm_L    2 weeks ago

Italian?  Columbus led a Spanish expedition and claimed territory for Spain.  Columbus opened the Caribbean, Central America, and South America for Spanish conquest.  That's why people living south of the US border are called Hispanic.  Columbus Day celebrates Hispanic heritage, not Italian heritage.  Without Columbus there would be no Hispanic people in the Americas.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Nerm_L @2    2 weeks ago
Italian? 

Columbus Day is an Italian American holiday Nerm. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
2.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    2 weeks ago
Columbus Day is an Italian American holiday Nerm. 

I realize Columbus Day was created as a political expediency to address discrimination against Italian immigrants, particularly in New York.  When I was in elementary school the emphasis was on Italian heritage.  But today we're supposed to confront the real history and correct those myths.

Christopher Columbus was born in Genoa but Columbus was a Spanish subject when he led the expedition across the Atlantic.  Columbus did not lead an Italian expedition when he discovered the New World.  And Columbus did not claim territory for Italy.  Italy did not play any sort of role in conquest and colonization of the Americas.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Nerm_L @2.1.1    2 weeks ago

Columbus Day is an Italian American holiday Nerm. If you object take it up with an Italian. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nerm_L @2.1.1    2 weeks ago
I realize Columbus Day was created as a political expediency to address discrimination against Italian immigrants, particularly in New York. 

Not true! Here is the background to Columbus Day:

The first national Columbus Day was proclaimed in 1892 by Republican President Benjamin Harrison to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Italian-born explorer Christopher Columbus’s supposed discovery of America.
But for Harrison, it served another purpose: to help resolve a diplomatic crisis with Italy — and gain support among Italian American voters — after rioters in New Orleans lynched 11 Italian immigrants the year before.
btw:
The first official recognition of Columbus as a so-called "discoverer" of America was on the occasion of the 300th anniversary in 1792. The first monument for Columbus was erected on this occasion in Baltimore, Maryland. Around the same time the new capitol in Washington was officially named the District of Columbia to appease those who wanted to name the country after Columbus. The name Columbus is found throughout American popular culture, national commemorations and memory. Many towns and cities across America are named after the explorer.
 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
2.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    2 weeks ago

mrz101021dAPC20211009084509.jpg

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.5  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

 Most Columbus statues in the U.S. were erected in the wake of an 1891 lynching of 11 Italian immigrants in New Orleans, an era when Italians faced widespread discrimination.

“Columbus represented their assimilation into the American fabric and into the American dream,” said Robert Allegrini, president of the National Italian American Foundation. Mr. Allegrini said Indigenous Peoples’ Day shouldn’t come at the expense of a day that is significant for millions of Italian-Americans and noted there are 364 days to choose for that holiday.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.6  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.5    2 weeks ago

How about John Basilone Day instead of Columbus Day as the nations Italian heritage day? 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.7  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.6    2 weeks ago

How about you pick another day to celebrate indigenous people's Day?



 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.8  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    2 weeks ago

Because the Italians should find another basis to celebrate their Italian pride holiday than Columbus. 

They can keep the second Monday in October if they lose the Columbus. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.9  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.8    2 weeks ago
They can keep the second Monday in October if they lose the Columbus. 

Who says so?  The American left?

No thanks.

Oh, I know, we can celebrate indigenous people's Day on March 17That solves it.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.10  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.5    2 weeks ago

Columbus never set foot in the US what he did do was enforce the ''Doctrine of Discovery'' and the Papal bull Inter Caetera to what is now the US which led to the slaughter of tens of thousands of indigenous in the Americas.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.11  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @2.1.10    2 weeks ago

Tens of thousands slaughtered!

I guess he was worse than Pol Pot!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.12  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    2 weeks ago

Can't stick to the subject, Vic.  You have to try the strawman dodge.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.13  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.9    2 weeks ago

If there were to be justification for that so be it. 

I know all about Columbus, I have read numerous accounts of what he was doing and did.  If he did "discover" America, it was entirely in a context desired by Europeans. The 'Americans' at the time were the indigenous people. "Columbus Day" should be celebrated in Europe, not in the United States. 

But then there are also all the extremely problematic associations with Columbus, such as abuse of the natives he encountered, and the fact that he was unaware of the land we now know as the United States. 

I am all for Italian Americans having an ethnic pride day, but it should not be such a highly controversial figure as Columbus. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.14  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @2.1.12    2 weeks ago

I'm just going by what you told me. Did I get it wrong?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.15  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.13    2 weeks ago
I know all about Columbus,

I have you down for knowing all about 2 individuals. One is a former President and the other is a historical figure from the age of exploration (of ADVANCED NATIONS)


 The 'Americans' at the time were the indigenous people. "Columbus Day" should be celebrated in Europe, not in the United States. 

Where they really Americans? They didn't live in the continental US. Maybe technically they were?  Either way, you want to give them a day. I'm ok with that part. The other part where you and those who think like you want to take away something is where I draw the line. You have no moral authority to decide for everyone else.


But then there are also all the extremely problematic associations with Columbus, such as abuse of the natives he encountered

Bill O'Reilly used to say "they were shooting arrows at him!"  What say you?


 and the fact that he was unaware of the land we now know as the United States. 

We are back to the mantra of "They are Indians because some white guy got lost!"


I am all for Italian Americans having an ethnic pride day, but

But they can go fuck themselves. Got it!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.16  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.15    2 weeks ago
Were they really Americans? They didn't live in the continental US. Maybe technically they were?  Either way, you want to give them a day.

The land all the indigenous lived on later became known as America(North and South) . In any case I'm talking about the indigenous that live in what we now call the United States of America. At the time Columbus arrived THEY were the Americans. Columbus 'discovery' was entirely a European event.  The indigenous didnt believe they had been discovered, the Europeans did.  I dont even mind people saying "Columbus discovered America" as long as it it kept in the context and perspective of the Europeans. 

Bill O'Reilly used to say"they were shooting arrows at him!"  What say you?

Columbus considered the natives to be primitive people to be subjugated, taught to serve the Europeans, and made into Christians. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.14    2 weeks ago
I'm just going by what you told me. Did I get it wrong?

Yeah, you got it wrong by trying to use a strawman, if you were going to do that you should have used Mussolini, a fellow countryman of Columbus and a murderer. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Vic Eldred  replied to  Kavika @2.1.17    2 weeks ago

I leave that one for a rational audience.

To them I ask "Do you still have empathy?"

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
2.1.19  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.5    2 weeks ago

At 10:00 am on December 26, 1862, 38 Dakota prisoners were led to a scaffold specially constructed for their execution. One had been given a reprieve at the last minute. An estimated 4,000 spectators crammed the streets of Mankato and surrounding land. Col. Stephen Miller, charged with keeping the peace in the days leading up to the hangings, had declared martial law and had banned the sale and consumption of alcohol within a ten-mile radius of the town

"The trials of the Dakota were conducted unfairly in a variety of ways. The evidence was sparse, the tribunal was biased, the defendants were unrepresented in unfamiliar proceedings conducted in a foreign language, and authority for convening the tribunal was lacking. More fundamentally, neither the Military Commission nor the reviewing authorities recognized that they were dealing with the aftermath of a war fought with a sovereign nation and that the men who surrendered were entitled to treatment in accordance with that status."

So, by your standards, in 1863, Lincoln "should have", after hanging 38 Dakota, declared Indigenous Peoples Day?

How 'bout -

On December 29, 1890, the U.S. Army’s 7th Cavalry surrounded a band of Ghost Dancers under Big Foot, a Lakota Sioux chief, near Wounded Knee Creek and demanded they surrender their weapons. As that was happening, a fight broke out between an Indian and a U.S. soldier and a shot was fired, although it’s unclear from which side. A brutal massacre followed, in which it’s estimated 312 Indians were killed (some historians put this number at twice as high), over half of them women and children. The cavalry lost 25 men by their own troops.

The conflict at Wounded Knee was originally referred to as a battle, but in reality it was a tragic and avoidable massacre.

Or -

In August 1864, Evans met with Black Kettle and several other chiefs to forge a new peace, and all parties left satisfied. Black Kettle moved his band to Fort Lyon, Colorado, where the commanding officer encouraged him to hunt near Sand Creek. In what can only be considered an act of treachery, Chivington moved his troops to the plains, and on November 29, they attacked the unsuspecting Native Americans, scattering men, women, and children and hunting them down. The casualties reflect the one-sided nature of the fight. Nine of Chivington’s men were killed; 348 of Black Kettle’s followers were slaughtered, more than half of them women and children. The Colorado volunteers returned and killed the wounded, mutilated the bodies, and set fire to the village.

So, where is the Indigenous Peoples Day for those??

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
2.1.20  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    2 weeks ago

Actually, a little bit of an update Vic -

Columbus had two goals in the Caribbean: to find gold and slaves. Columbus returned home to Spain and came back to the Caribbean with 17 ships and 1,200 men. His men traveled from island to island, taking Indians as captives. In 1495, in a large slave raid, Columbus and his men rounded up 1,500 Arawak men, women, and children, and put them in pens. They selected what they considered the best natives and loaded them onto ships back to Spain. Two hundred died en route. After the survivors were sold as slaves in Spain, Columbus later wrote: "Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold."  Facing extermination, the Arawaks organized and attempted to fight back against the Spaniards. But they were little match against the armor, muskets, swords and horses of the Europeans. The Spaniards hung or burned Indians that they took captive. By this point, the Arawaks began committing mass suicides. They fed cassava poison to their infants to save them from the Spanish. In two years, half of the 250,000 Indians on Haiti were dead, either through murder, mutilation or suicide. By 1550, there were 500 Indians. By 1650, the Arawaks had been wiped out from the island.

If captivity and death weren’t enough, Columbus and his men had a particular reputation for cruelty. Bartolome de las Casas, a young priest who participated in the conquest of Cuba and wrote a history of the Indies, describes the treatment of the natives: “Endless testimonies ... prove the mild and pacific temperament of the natives. ... But our work was to exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then.... The admiral, it is true, was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians ...“ Las Casas describes how Spaniards rode on the backs of natives. How the Spaniards "thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades." Las Casas adds "two of these so-called Christians met two Indian boys one day, each carrying a parrot; they took the parrots and for fun beheaded the boys ."

All total, Columbus's arrival and intervention killed over 1.3M Caribe/Arawak/Seboni/Etc. Indians so he could placate the King and Queen with his "service" to the crown by bringing them wealth beyond their dreams.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
2.1.21  1stwarrior  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.8    2 weeks ago

Why?  What 'bout the Germans, Poles, Chezck's, Irish, Greek, Hungarians, French, Russians, Scots, English, etc.. - what day should they all get to celebrate coming to the U.S. and becoming citizens also?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
2.1.22  1stwarrior  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.9    2 weeks ago

Sorry Vic - Native Americans aren't drunks/alcoholics - try another one.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.23  author  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @2.1.21    2 weeks ago

Many ethnicities do have days on the calendar where they celebrate their nationality.  I dont know if they all do, but many do. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.24  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.18    2 weeks ago
I leave that one for a rational audience.

Which rational audience, the one that saw your strawman comments? That One?

You could also ask that rational audience if the Cambodians have empathy for Pol Pot.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.25  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.15    2 weeks ago
But they can go fuck themselves. Got it!

.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
2.1.26  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1    2 weeks ago
Columbus Day is an Italian American holiday. 

This is news to me. 

I believe you if you say so, I do. 

But I've known thousands of Italians in my life and I never remember any of them giving a tinker's damn about Columbus day.

This just seems to me like another example of "outrage du jour" on both sides, where people don't really give a shit about something until it's dangled in front of their face like a shiny object.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.27  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @2.1.26    2 weeks ago

Columbus Day | History, Meaning, & Facts

2-2 minutes


Columbus Day , also called   Indigenous Peoples’ Day , in the   United States ,   holiday   (originally October 12; since 1971 the second Monday in October) to   commemorate   the landing of   Christopher Columbus   on October 12, 1492, in the New World. Columbus Day is celebrated on Monday, October 11, 2021.

Although his explorations were financed by   King Ferdinand   and   Queen Isabella   of   Spain , Columbus was a native of  Genoa Italy , and over the years Italian Americans took up the cause of honouring his achievement. The 300th anniversary of his landing was celebrated in  New York City  in 1792 by the Society of St. Tammany, or Columbian Order, and the 400th anniversary, in 1892, by presidential proclamation nationwide. During the latter half of the 19th century, the day began to be celebrated in cities with large numbers of Italian Americans, and in 1937 it became a national holiday by presidential proclamation. The day came to be marked by parades, often including floats depicting the ships of Columbus, and by public ceremonies and festivities. By the quincentennial in 1992, the holiday was an occasion for discussing the European conquest of American Indians, and some people objected to celebrating the event and proposed   alternatives , among them   Indigenous   Peoples’ Day.

Columbus Day | History, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
2.1.28  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

The first national Columbus Day was proclaimed in 1892 by Republican President Benjamin Harrison to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Italian-born explorer Christopher Columbus’s supposed discovery of America.

It is a bit silly to celebrate the ethnicity of the guy who “supposedly discovered America” by making it clear he was only “born in Italy”.  It kind of makes a mockery of the very concept of ethnicity.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
2.1.29  Nerm_L  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.3    2 weeks ago
Not true! Here is the background to Columbus Day:

What's not true?  It's not true that the Columbus Day holiday was created as a political expediency?  It's not true that the Columbus Day holiday was created to address discrimination against Italian immigrants?

How is the creation of the Columbus Day holiday any different than the creation of Indigenous People Day?  Neither one really celebrates anything significant for the building of America.  Columbus Day and Indigenous People Day are both political pandering to groups who did not contribute to the founding of the United States or the building of America.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.2  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @2    2 weeks ago
As the English, Spanish and Dutch began to explore and claim parts of North America, Jacques Cartier began the French colonization of North American in 1534.  By the 1720’s the colonies of Canada , Acadia , Hudson Bay , Newfoundland and Louisiana that made up New France were well established.

Columbus did not discover the Americas.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.2.1  Kavika   replied to  Ender @2.2    2 weeks ago

Niether Columbus nor any of those that you mentioned discovered America or the Americas, there were millions of people here long before they got here. Difficult to say they discovered anything.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.2.2  Ender  replied to  Kavika @2.2.1    2 weeks ago

True enough.  Haha

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
2.2.3  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @2.2    2 weeks ago
Columbus did not discover the Americas.

Christopher Columbus discovered that it was possible to sail across the Atlantic Ocean and return.  The Apollo 8 and Apollo 11 missions did not discover the Moon; the Apollo missions discovered that it was possible to go to the Moon AND return.  

What made the Columbus expedition significant was the return to Spain.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.4  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Nerm_L @2.2.3    2 weeks ago
What made the Columbus expedition significant was the return to Spain.

How else would the Spanish crown have gotten all the gold they wanted to plunder? 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.2.5  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @2.2.3    2 weeks ago
Nearly 500 years before the birth of  Christopher Columbus , a band of European sailors left their homeland behind in search of a new world. Their high-prowed Viking ship sliced through the cobalt waters of the Atlantic Ocean as winds billowed the boat’s enormous single sail. After traversing unfamiliar waters, the Norsemen aboard the wooden ship spied a new land, dropped anchor and went ashore. 
 
 
 
Nerm_L
Senior Principal
2.2.6  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @2.2.5    2 weeks ago
Nearly 500 years before the birth of  Christopher Columbus , a band of European sailors left their homeland behind in search of a new world. Their high-prowed Viking ship sliced through the cobalt waters of the Atlantic Ocean as winds billowed the boat’s enormous single sail. After traversing unfamiliar waters, the Norsemen aboard the wooden ship spied a new land, dropped anchor and went ashore. 

There's also a theory that Phoenicians traveled to the Americas 2,000 years before Columbus and 1,500 years before Norsemen. 

There is genetic evidence that Polynesians interbred with American Indians before Columbus arrived in the New World.  There is some evidence that a Chinese expedition visited the Americas before Columbus.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
2.3  Gordy327  replied to  Nerm_L @2    2 weeks ago
Italian?

Yes, Columbus was born in Genoa.

Columbus led a Spanish expedition and claimed territory for Spain. 

The expedition was commissioned by the Spanish Monarchy. Columbus was in effect working for the Monarchy. So it makes sense that claims would be made for Spain.

Without Columbus there would be no Hispanic people in the Americas.

They would just go by a different name.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
2.4  Tacos!  replied to  Nerm_L @2    2 weeks ago
Columbus Day celebrates Hispanic heritage, not Italian heritage. 

Columbus Day is really America celebrating itself by looking to the beginning of European settlement of the Americas. But if Italians, or whoever else, wants to embrace it for themselves, they’re certainly welcome to it. Italians - and more broadly - Catholics are some of the oldest supporters of the holiday.

Without Columbus there would be no Hispanic people in the Americas.

I think that’s overstating things. Hispanic people would have come to the Americas eventually. Europeans, in general, would have still come to the Americas eventually, and everything would have unfolded largely as it actually did.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3  Kavika     2 weeks ago

Joe Biden is first president to mark Indigenous Peoples' Day

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
4  Tacos!    2 weeks ago

Columbus and his exploration are worth remembering. Are they worth a holiday? I never thought so, but I don’t mind having an extra holiday, and this is probably the easiest way to get people to learn about it. Most people can’t really name any other explorers.

We should also have a day - or days - for indigenous people. But making it Columbus Day or the day before is dumb. Find some way to celebrate native people on their own terms and pick dates that are celebratory for them.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.1  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4    2 weeks ago
We should also have a day - or days - for indigenous people.

I agree.

But making it Columbus Day or the day before is dumb.

I agree.  I am not a fan of having a Columbus Day, but would like to keep the holiday.  Might not be many objections if we just rename it "Autumn Vacation Day".

Find some way to celebrate native people on their own terms and pick dates that are celebratory for them.

Interesting idea.  Do you have any idea how many Indian Nations are in existence today in the US?  

November is National Native American Month.  I just found it because I googled to see if it had even been considered.  This really needs to be advertised more.  

National Native American Heritage Month

What started at the turn of the century as an effort to gain a day of recognition for the significant contributions the first Americans made to the establishment and growth of the U.S., has resulted in a whole month being designated for that purpose.

One of the very proponents of an American Indian Day was Dr. Arthur C. Parker, a Seneca Indian, who was the director of the Museum of Arts and Science in Rochester, N.Y. He persuaded the Boy Scouts of America to set aside a day for the “First Americans” and for three years they adopted such a day. In 1915, the annual Congress of the American Indian Association meeting in Lawrence, Kans., formally approved a plan concerning American Indian Day. It directed its president, Rev. Sherman Coolidge, an Arapahoe, to call upon the country to observe such a day. Coolidge issued a proclamation on Sept. 28, 1915, which declared the second Saturday of each May as an American Indian Day and contained the first formal appeal for recognition of Indians as citizens.

The year before this proclamation was issued, Red Fox James, a Blackfoot Indian, rode horseback from state to state seeking approval for a day to honor Indians. On December 14, 1915, he presented the endorsements of 24 state governments at the White House. There is no record, however, of such a national day being proclaimed.

The first American Indian Day in a state was declared on the second Saturday in May 1916 by the governor of New York. Several states celebrate the fourth Friday in September. In Illinois, for example, legislators enacted such a day in 1919. Presently, several states have designated Columbus Day as Native American Day, but it continues to be a day we observe without any recognition as a national legal holiday.

In 1990 President George H. W. Bush approved a joint resolution designating November 1990 “National American Indian Heritage Month.” Similar proclamations, under variants on the name (including “Native American Heritage Month” and “National American Indian and Alaska Native Heritage Month”) have been issued each year since 1994.

About this Site

This Web portal is a collaborative project of the Library of Congress and the National Endowment for the Humanities, National Gallery of Art, National Park Service, Smithsonian Institution, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Kavika   replied to  mocowgirl @4.1    2 weeks ago
Interesting idea.  Do you have any idea how many Indian Nations are in existence today in the US?  

There are 574 federally recognized tribes in the US. There are more 200 tribes that are not federally recognized by the feds. 

The largest tribe is the Navajo with a population of 392,000 enrolled members. There are thousands more that are not enrolled for a variety of reason. 

In the 2020 census, the NA population of the US was 9.7 million.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.1.2  mocowgirl  replied to  Kavika @4.1.1    2 weeks ago
There are 574 federally recognized tribes in the US. There are more 200 tribes that are not federally recognized by the feds. 

Thanks for the information.

Do the tribes work together in any way?

I could google, but I wanted information from a trusted source.

I have limited knowledge on Native American cultures and I don't really know how much of it is correct.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.3  Kavika   replied to  mocowgirl @4.1.2    2 weeks ago
Do the tribes work together in any way?

Yes, they do on a one and one basis and also by belonging to the NCAI (national counsel of American Indians) which most tribes belong to. 

I have limited knowledge on Native American cultures and I don't really know how much of it is correct.

Free free to ask me anything you want to know about NA's I'll do my best to answer your questions.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.1.4  mocowgirl  replied to  Kavika @4.1.3    2 weeks ago
NCAI (national counsel of American Indians) which most tribes belong to.

That's great.

Is it possible that the NCAI could agree to a date for a national holiday to honor American Indians?

Also, is the NCAI involved in planning activities for National Native American Heritage Month in November?

 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Kavika   replied to  mocowgirl @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
Is it possible that the NCAI could agree to a date for a national holiday to honor American Indians?

Yes, it's possible and they have been quite vocal on the Columbus Day holiday (against it)

Info on NCAI planning for NA Heritage Month.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.1.6  mocowgirl  replied to  Kavika @4.1.5    2 weeks ago
Yes, it's possible and they have been quite vocal on the Columbus Day holiday (against it)

I hope the NCAI can come to an agreement in the near future and propose a date.  There is no logical reason why congress should not be able to pass a national holiday to honor American Indians.

Info on NCAI planning for NA Heritage Month.

Thank you.  I bookmarked the site for reference.  As I age, I have found my memory isn't what it used to be.  I have acquired a memory delete function that I don't find especially useful.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
4.2  1stwarrior  replied to  Tacos! @4    2 weeks ago

H. W. G. Bush "tried" to get the first Monday of November listed as American Indian Day, which is why we now have Native American Month in November - but Congress decided the "Indians" didn't need a holiday.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.2.1  mocowgirl  replied to  1stwarrior @4.2    2 weeks ago
which is why we now have Native American Month in November

This needs to be advertised much more in local and national news media.  I have usually read an assortment of national magazines and local newspapers, yet I wasn't aware of its existence.  

TV networks, throughout the day, should have at least 30 second slots honoring the history and achievements of the Native Americans.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.2.2  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @4.2.1    2 weeks ago

Just some info on National Native American Heritage Month over the years.....

National Native American Heritage Month | Indian Affairs

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.2.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  1stwarrior @4.2    6 days ago

Why not Amerigo Vespucci day for whom America is named after? Italians would probably like that.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
4.2.4  Tacos!  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4.2.3    6 days ago

It wouldn’t do much for the Italians, but I’ve always thought that if we were going to have a holiday for exploration that led to the United States of America, then it should be focused on Jamestown. I mean the USA was born out of English colonies, and Jamestown was the first English settlement that lasted. Just makes more sense to me.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5  Mark in Wyoming     2 weeks ago

i dont think it will matter , people will observe and recognize what ever "holiday" they choose , i say let those that want to, obvserve whatever they want , just dont expect to be paid for it .

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
6  Drakkonis    2 weeks ago

I'm mostly indifferent to Columbus in the sense he proves to be just another human being, when all is said and done. What the Spanish did to the Aztecs was reprehensible, but the people they did those things were reprehensible as well. They were nothing to celebrate, in my opinion, as their society was based on death, fear and intimidation. Essentially, they got what they gave

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2  Kavika   replied to  Drakkonis @6    2 weeks ago

There are no Aztecs in the US and never have been so your comment has no correlation to the US and Indigenous day here.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Principal
6.2.1  Raven Wing  replied to  Kavika @6.2    2 weeks ago

Another armchair NA expert.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
6.2.2  Greg Jones  replied to  Kavika @6.2    2 weeks ago

Whether they were in the "US" is irrelevant. Neither was Columbus..

mrz101021dAPC20211009084509.jpg

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.3  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.2    2 weeks ago

Its not irrelevant to Columbus Day being a US holiday. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
6.2.4  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.3    2 weeks ago

What's next? Tearing down all Columbus statues and monuments?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2.5  Kavika   replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.2    2 weeks ago

Of couse it's relevent, only those with limited ability to see would think it's not. You seem to qualify for that group.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
6.2.6  JBB  replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.4    2 weeks ago

Not so much tearing down as just removing.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2.7  Kavika   replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.2    2 weeks ago
Whether they were in the "US" is irrelevant. Neither was Columbus..

You're right Coumbus wasn't in the US nor did he discover it so why are morons celebrating it? 

Feel free to answer the question.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
6.2.8  1stwarrior  replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.2    2 weeks ago

Bernard Gui wrote the influential guidebook for Inquisitors called “Conduct of the Inquisition into Heretical Depravity” in the early 14th Century. Gui himself pronounced over 600 people guilty of heresy and was featured as a character in Umberto Eco’s novel The Name of the Rose.

There were countless abuses of power. Count Raymond VII of Toulouse was known for burning heretics at the stake even though they had confessed. His successor, Count Alphonese, confiscated the lands of the accused to increase his riches.

In 1307, Inquisitors were involved in the mass arrest and tortures of 15,000 Knights Templar in France, resulting in dozens of executions. Joan of Arc , burned at the stake in 1431, is the most famous victim of this wing of the Inquisition

Yeah Greg - let's celebrate the nice, quiet, peaceful Catholic Church who murdered/killed hundreds of thousands of folks who wouldn't admit to the Church's faith. 

Funny though - don't remember the Aztec's/Mayan's/Etc. going to Europe to enforce their religious beliefs, do you?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
6.2.9  1stwarrior  replied to  Greg Jones @6.2.4    2 weeks ago

How 'bout taking his name is total context - loser.  Didn't know where he was, didn't know where he'd been, didn't know how he got there, living on complete financial dependence of others - and you wanna celebrate that?

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
6.2.10  Drakkonis  replied to  Kavika @6.2    2 weeks ago
There are no Aztecs in the US and never have been so your comment has no correlation to the US and Indigenous day here.

I'll take your word for that but I wasn't referring to Indig day. My comment hand to do with Columbus day. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
6.2.11  Drakkonis  replied to  Raven Wing @6.2.1    2 weeks ago
Another armchair NA expert.

Was there something wrong with my comment? Should the Aztecs be celebrated? 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
6.2.12  Kavika   replied to  Drakkonis @6.2.10    2 weeks ago

Actually, your comment didn't have anything to do with what was being discussed or the article as it pertains to the US/Columbus/Indigenous Day.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
6.2.13  Drakkonis  replied to  Kavika @6.2.12    2 weeks ago

I must be confused, then, about a few things. First, I'm unaware of an article being discussed. It seems to be just a question JR poses. If there's an article I don't seem to see it. Second, I started a different thread to avoid intentionally stepping on other discussions. 

Lastly, I thought discussing Columbus was relevant to the question. Although I am no more an expert on Columbus than I am on Native Americans, it seems clear he didn't lack his share of flaws. I don't think the man should be put up on a pedestal. Is that not relevant to the question JR poses?

But my original comment was also intended to include Native American's in that, whether in the northern or southern continent, the Aztecs being the most egregious examples, in my opinion. I do not hold to some Walt Disney version of Native Americans in my mind. They were people like anyone else, as far as I can see, with their own flaws. It seems to me that some NA cultures were better than others but still, we're all just human beings, with all the same faults, when you get right down to it. 

In the end, I'm not really a fan of putting either one up on a pedestal. 

I should add, though, that I don't think negatively of NA's any more than any other group on earth. I think there's some great things about NA culture. But from my view of reality, we all need God. He's the only one I put up on a pedestal, so it isn't something I just direct at NA's. 

 
 
 
MsMarple
Freshman Silent
7  MsMarple    2 weeks ago

Lots of good thoughts on this thread. 
And John Russel, you ask a good question "Should Columbus Day and Indigenous People Day co-exist?"
Frankly, I don't have a good answer, and I've given it a LOT of thought.

I have Italian immigrants in my extended family, and now I also have a native American, too.

Whether Columbus Day was a "bone thrown to Italy" or not, I do know Italians in America somehow take it as their national pride. Even though Columbus sailed across the ocean courtesy of Isabella, the Queen of Castile, because the Genoa/Florence bankers refused to subsidize Columbus' "folly of an idea" - and he arrived in Central America, not North America. 

Columbus did NOT discover North America. Neither did Amerigo Vespucci. But Amerigo Vespucci (sailing just a few years after Columbus) stumbled upon South American and realized it was a new continent. He called it  the "New World", not "another India", like Columbus thought (that's why Native Americans were called "Indians"). 

In either case, questions like - was this "discovery by Europeans" beneficial to the locals? Whose culture was better? The human-sacrifice Aztecs or Inquisition Europeans who were busy burning people alive and expelling all the Jews from Spain (like Queen Isabella who bankrolled Columbus)?

NONE of them, that's my take. That's the state of humanity 500 years ago - everybody was a savage, trying to survive. But, one culture came and conquered another culture. Did atrocious things to them, in their own home. It's a miracle any of the original peoples survive. 

So, to answer the original question: "Should Columbus Day and Indigenous People Day co-exist?"
My personal belief is - at this point, it's too late, TOO LATE to determine which one is worthy or righteous. Too much time has passed. Too much history has changed. 

Yet, Indigenous people should be treated with honor and respect and somehow appreciated in some way ( such as not living in utter poverty on the reservations). Because, how come they still have not assimilated into the American society? I don't know the answer here. Somehow it is just not working for them!

But I really doubt an "Indigenous Peoples' Day" is going to right the wrongs that happened to them, and continue happening. 
Maybe respect their wishes when they don't want a pipeline built on their tiny piece of the World, like the Dakota pipeline? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MsMarple @7    2 weeks ago

Good comment. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
PhD Expert
7.2  Greg Jones  replied to  MsMarple @7    2 weeks ago

It's not their land.....

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.2.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 weeks ago

Greg, if enough Mexicans were to proceed into California and Arizona that they were able to have the political power to get those areas to leave the United States and rejoin Mexico again, would Mexico own those lands? 

You seem to think that the Indians lost all claim to land because they lost the war. 

In that case all claims to land ownership are tenuous, including yours to the land your house sits on. 

 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
7.2.2  1stwarrior  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 weeks ago

Well, according to SCOTUS, the tribes/nations still "hold title" to all their aboriginal lands - it's called "Aboriginal Title".

Next statement?

 
 
 
r.t..b...
PhD Participates
7.2.3  r.t..b...  replied to  Greg Jones @7.2    2 weeks ago

“It's not their land.....”

Just what are you attempting to defend?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.2.4  Tessylo  replied to  r.t..b... @7.2.3    2 weeks ago

He has no idea

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
7.2.5  devangelical  replied to  r.t..b... @7.2.3    2 weeks ago

the original version of hostile takeovers...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
7.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  MsMarple @7    2 weeks ago
Because, how come they still have not assimilated into the American society? I don't know the answer here. Somehow it is just not working for them!

The white settlers have already tried erasing their culture, heritage, and history. I can't blame Native Americans for not wanting to assimilate.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
7.4  1stwarrior  replied to  MsMarple @7    2 weeks ago

Because, how come they still have not assimilated into the American society? I don't know the answer here. Somehow it is just not working for them!

Quite simply, they are Sovereign Nations, here 30,000 years before the Euro's even got developed.  Did you know that Cahokia and Mexico City had over 1M residents, each, in the 1400's while Europe's largest city was London with 5,000, Paris with 3,000 and Alexandria had 7,000?

Native Americans will never give up their individual tribal/nation membership because they are, indeed, Sovereign Nations.  They don't want be "anybody else" - they want to be their own individual tribe/nation.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8  author  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

Here is an article in todays Daily News, in defense of Columbus Day. Interestingly, the writer offers almost no defense of Columbus, other than the old stand by "he was a man of his times". 

Goodbye, Columbus? Those urging the explorer be thrown overboard need to do their homework - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)

That explanation is not good enough in these times. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
8.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @8    2 weeks ago
other than the old stand by "he was a man of his times". 

The thing is, that if he was just "a man of his times" then he wouldn't have been arrested and tried by people of his times for his cruelty and abuses when he was governor.

"The report, by Francisco de Bobadilla, lay undiscovered in a state archive in the Spanish city of Valladolid until last year. Bobadilla had already been named governor of the Indies, replacing Columbus, at the time of the report.

The 48-page document gathers evidence from Columbus' enemies and supporters of his seven-year reign. Ms Varela, one of the two Spanish historians to have studied the document, described life in the colony as "horrifying and hard".

Bobadilla collected the testimonies of 23 people who had seen or heard about the treatment meted out by Columbus and his brothers. "Even those who loved him had to admit the atrocities that had taken place," Ms Varela said.

Columbus and his brothers were forced to travel back to Spain. Columbus was in chains."

"As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on the first Spanish colony in the Americas, in what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic. Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets and selling them into slavery."

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
9  Hallux    2 weeks ago

Appears we need a special American Indignant Day for some.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
9.1  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @9    2 weeks ago

Actually Hallux - as in North above our lines, what we really need is for the U.S./Canadian governments to HONOR the treaties they forced us to sign.

That's what's needed.

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
9.1.1  Hallux  replied to  1stwarrior @9.1    2 weeks ago

Alas, what's needed tends to happen when it's too late.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
9.1.2  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @9.1.1    2 weeks ago

Donchano :-(

 
 
 
Moose Knuckle
Freshman Participates
10  Moose Knuckle    2 weeks ago

Columbus didn't discover anything, and Native Americans weren't the first settlers in North America. Ice age Mariners from Europe were the first to settle the Americas.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Moose Knuckle @10    2 weeks ago
Ice age Mariners from Europe were the first to settle the Americas.

Good to know. 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
10.1.1  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  JohnRussell @10.1    2 weeks ago

It is my understanding that the first people here migrated over a natural land bridge via Asia.

 
 
 
MsMarple
Freshman Silent
10.1.2  MsMarple  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @10.1.1    2 weeks ago
Ice age Mariners from Europe were the first to settle the Americas.

"Ice age Mariners from Europe were the first to settle the Americas." No, not quite. 


Unless you mean "Ice Age mariners" were actually the people who
walked over from Africa to Europe and then through the Bering Straight to North America. 

In other words, It is not true.
"European mariners" were not first to settle the Americas. Europe didn't even exist  then.


The first American settlers were nomads, who came to these continents when the Bering Straight was still a Land Bridge. They say 15-17,000 years at most, or some say less than 12,000 years ago. 

Europe did not even exist 12,000 years ago. Not even Egypt as we know it now existed back then. That was well before the "human age".

It was the age of apes when the Americas were first populated. I suggest reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" - still the best book on explaining our human predicament so far

:):):) 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.1.3  Kavika   replied to  MsMarple @10.1.2    2 weeks ago

There is actual proof that we were here at least 23,000 years ago. The latest discovery is the footprints in NM.

More and more of the scientific field believe that we go back in in Americas at least 50,000 years. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3  1stwarrior  replied to  Moose Knuckle @10    2 weeks ago

Wow - you really believe the "ice age mariners" got here 30,000 years ago - before the original inhabitants, the Native Americans???  

Cool - gonna hafta change my Anthro books 'cause they got it all wrong.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.3.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3    2 weeks ago
Wow - you really believe the "ice age mariners" got here 30,000 years ago - before the original inhabitants, the Native Americans???  

Its written in the Book Of Schnooks

 
 
 
Moose Knuckle
Freshman Participates
10.3.2  Moose Knuckle  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3    2 weeks ago

This explains the West Eurasian genetic signatures among Native Americans predating the modern European colonization, and yes it is likely that we got it all wrong.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.3  1stwarrior  replied to  Moose Knuckle @10.3.2    2 weeks ago

Intermingling of the folks who traveled 'cross the Bering Straits 'bout 20,000 years ago explains it.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.3.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3.3    2 weeks ago

So it's likely that North America was inhabited by both Asian and European ancestors?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.3.5  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.3.4    2 weeks ago

It doesnt matter who came to the land 12,000 years ago. What matters is who was on the land when the Europeans came in the 15th-17th centuries. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @10.3.5    2 weeks ago
What matters is who was on the land when the Europeans came in the 15th-17th centuries. 

Why does that matter and not who came here earlier?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.3.7  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @10.3.6    2 weeks ago

Because I have a brain and can understand things. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.3.8  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @10.3.7    2 weeks ago
Because I have a brain and can understand things. 

Now, if you could only explain things you claim to understand.

oh, well............................................

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.9  1stwarrior  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.3.4    2 weeks ago

More probability of the Asian - not really a lot of proof on the Euro side.

 
 
 
Lucifer Morningstar
Professor Guide
10.3.10  Lucifer Morningstar  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3    2 weeks ago

There is no such thing as indigenous people to North America.   And even if there were, it really doesn't fucking matter.  [deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.3.11  Kavika   replied to  Lucifer Morningstar @10.3.10    2 weeks ago

Of course, historians, scientists, anthropologists and archeologists and all of their evidence are wrong and some bozo on the net knows it all....

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.3.12  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Kavika @10.3.11    2 weeks ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.13  1stwarrior  replied to  Lucifer Morningstar @10.3.10    2 weeks ago

Well Lucy - considering where you're at, there ain't a lot of Native Americans with you since we bother with the truth too much.  Ohhhh - you're thinking of those lost white guys who are cuddled 'round you in masses that like to lie so much.

Got it.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.3.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3.9    2 weeks ago

I bow to your superior intelligence. That is not a slam. You know more about these things than I do

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.15  1stwarrior  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.3.14    2 weeks ago

Kavika and I - and a few others here - just get more and more curious each time "new" information comes up 'bout who came from where.

Ain't got nothing on being intelligent - just like my wife sez - "you're just too friggin' nosy" - ya think?

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.16  1stwarrior  replied to  Lucifer Morningstar @10.3.10    2 weeks ago

Dawned on me last night - "Morningstar" - George A. Custer - hmmmm - you getting ready to start petitioning for a holiday for Ol' Arrow Shirt George?

Just curious - not trying to be offensive.

 
 
 
zuksam
Sophomore Silent
10.3.17  zuksam  replied to  JohnRussell @10.3.5    2 weeks ago
It doesn't matter who came to the land 12,000 years ago. What matters is who was on the land when the Europeans came in the 15th-17th centuries. 

Actually none of it really matters. We are who we are now, the past is the past and nothing will change it.

 
 
 
Lucifer Morningstar
Professor Guide
10.3.18  Lucifer Morningstar  replied to  1stwarrior @10.3.13    6 days ago

Haven’t you heard,  I’m vacationing up here, LA to be precise but I do get around at will. 

Even better news God is retiring and I guess who got the named to replace him?

And Yeah I guess you missed the part about sore losers.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.3.19  1stwarrior  replied to  Lucifer Morningstar @10.3.18    5 days ago

Never address someone's comments to themselves.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Moose Knuckle @10    2 weeks ago

Proof?

 
 
 
Hallux
Sophomore Principal
10.4.1  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.4    2 weeks ago

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.4.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @10.4.1    2 weeks ago

Thank-you. I see Moose Knuckle couldn't be bothered

 
 
 
Moose Knuckle
Freshman Participates
10.4.3  Moose Knuckle  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.4.2    2 weeks ago

I apologize, we just had a lady take a fall near the pharmacy and I had to fill out an accident report. Now I am watching video and will be for a while. Did she do this to bilk the Walton family or was it a real accident.

 
 
 
Moose Knuckle
Freshman Participates
10.4.4  Moose Knuckle  replied to  Hallux @10.4.1    2 weeks ago

I want this not to be true, I need the Lamanites or my entire life's religious believes are in question and I might have practiced bigamy in an unholy manner.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.4.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  Moose Knuckle @10.4.3    2 weeks ago

I'm the one that needs to apologize.

My apologies

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.4.6  1stwarrior  replied to  Hallux @10.4.1    2 weeks ago

Interesting - I've got a spearhead that I pulled up from the Indian River, next to Canaveral, that's identical to the pics show in your link.

Also should be noted was/is the Mayan influence in the Atlanta area

Interesting to me is that my tribe/nation, Chickasaw, came to the SE during that time period with their brothers, the Choctaw.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
10.4.7  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.4.5    2 weeks ago

save it...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.4.8  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @10.4.5    2 weeks ago

Actually, that is a theory that is much like the Phoenicians and Seal hunters theories. The article is from 2012 there have been many new discoveries and huge advancements in science and DNA

This is evidence from 21,000 years ago in NM.

This is more evidence that NA DNA markers match with groups from Siberia.

There are more discoveries and evidence that NA's match up with Siberians. 

Lots of information can be googled.

It's complex, to say the least.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
10.4.9  Kavika   replied to  Moose Knuckle @10.4.4    2 weeks ago
I want this not to be true, I need the Lamanites or my entire life's religious believes are in question and I might have practiced bigamy in an unholy manner.

Isn't it the belief of the LDS that Native Americans are descendants of the Lamanites? That would make us remnants of the ''House of Israel'' Which DNA testing has proved to be false. 

Comprehensive DNA surveys of approaching 20,000 Native Americans and Polynesians have failed to find any plausible scientific evidence of pre-Columbian Hebrew migrations into the New World or Pacific Islands. In fact, scientists find such claims highly implausible. Dr. David Glenn Smith, a molecular anthropologist at U.C. Davis, pointed out that “Genetic research, particularly that using mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers, provide quite emphatic refutation of any such relationship between Jews and Native Americans.” [2]

I can see why you wouldn't want Hallux link to be true, which btw it isn't. It's a theory that is very outdated.

Could you explain to me why the LDS masqueraded as Paiute Indians when they slaughtered a wagon train of settlers heading to CA from Arkansas. Men, women and children were massacred by the LDS.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.4.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @10.4.8    2 weeks ago
There are more discoveries and evidence that NA's match up with Siberians. 

then it makes more sense that they came across the Bering Strait

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.4.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @10.4.9    2 weeks ago

I had to google Lamanites to understand what MK was talking about. The LDS is full of screwed up people and ideas

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
10.4.12  1stwarrior  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.4.11    2 weeks ago

I had no idea what he was talking 'bout - thought it was a new floor covering.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
11  Paula Bartholomew    2 weeks ago

We don't have CD here any longer (CA) so I think a First People's Day would be great, but not on the old CD date.  They deserve their own day, not a recycled one.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
PhD Participates
11.1  r.t..b...  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @11    2 weeks ago

“They deserve their own day, not a recycled one.”

Agreed, as a symbolic gesture.

What is truly needed is less a singular day of remembrance, but a holistic approach in taking responsibility for all that was taken…and in that taking, honoring all that was lost. 

 
 
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