After court ruling, activists push prayer into schools

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  hallux  •  3 weeks ago  •  495 comments

By:   Hannah Natanson - WaPo

After court ruling, activists push prayer into schools

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



They say church and state are already too separate


A Michigan superintendent is pondering whether coaches should lead students in pre-game prayer. A school board member in Florida wants her district to teach students about prayer and offer religious studies. In Hawaii, the leader of a faith- and family-focused activism group sees a path to altering state policy that says public-school employees cannot initiate prayer on campus.

A month has passed since the Supreme Court ruled in favor of a Washington state football coach who knelt at midfield to pray and was joined by student-athletes. The court wrote, in a 6-3 decision, that Bremerton High School assistant coach Joseph Kennedy’s prayers were protected by the Constitution’s guarantees of free speech and religious exercise, and that the district was wrong to discipline him for what the majority saw as a private act.

In response, families, teachers and activists are preparing to push religious worship into public schools nationwide — working to blur the line dividing prayer and pedagogy and promising emotional, spiritual and educational benefits for students. Some school officials are listening: In at least three states,Illinois,AlabamaandOregon, school personnel have said they are reviewing their policies on employee prayer.

“Our nation has lost its way in having lost a belief of a higher power,” said Christi Fraga, a Miami-Dade school board member who in May successfully proposed establishing an annual day of prayer in her district. “So in my community, there has been a cry for help — a cry to allow prayer in our schools.” Fraga added of the court’s ruling: “I hope it brings back our country to its foundation.”

Those who say faith should play a role in public schools are thrilled with their gains and eager to push for more next school year. They cite not only the court’s decision for Kennedy but also a June ruling in which the courtdeclared that Maine cannot prevent religious schoolsfrom receiving public tuition grants permitted for other private schools.

In other places, though, educators say not much will change — largely because coach-led prayer at games and invocations before school board meetings were already happening.

The fiercest advocates for church-state separation also concede they were fighting an uphill battle even before the court’s ruling. Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-founder of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, said many districts routinely ignore the string of 1960s and 1970s Supreme Court decisions establishing that public schoolscannot require students to recite prayers,cannot allow teachers to lead students in prayerand generallycannot promote or inhibit religion at school.

Gaylor said her foundation, a nonprofit founded in the late 1970s, is constantly fighting back against coaches who lead prayers with students at school or school officials who schedule prayer into the school day. In an average year, school incidents make up 50 percent of the group’s caseload, she said.

“We were mopping up anyway; it was like whack-a-mole,” Gaylor said.

Some mothers and fathers also fear what the next school year may bring. Those who practice non-Christian religions warn that, in most of America, “prayer” will by default mean Christian prayer, leaving their children alienated and isolated — while those who do not practice any faith worry their children will be coerced into espousing values and beliefs their parents do not share.

Among them is Kristi Robertson, a 33-year-old atheistin Oklahoma whose daughter discovered God and Christianity when her third-grade public-school teacher led the class in daily prayer. Four years later, Aurora, alone in her family, still prays and goes to church.

“There is nothing I can do about that now; she has made her choices to be religious,” Robertson said. “And if she’s invited to pray at school, she’s going to. If I do hear about it, I would probably complain again — but for other students. It is too late for her.”

‘A little bit of a spirit helps you’

Bill DeFrance, superintendent of Eaton Rapids Public Schools in Michigan, has moonlighted for years as a high school soccer referee. When religious schools compete, he has listened as coaches intone team prayers before and after a game. Still, he has never seen a public-school coach lead a prayer.

But in light of the Supreme Court ruling, and pending guidance from state officials, DeFrance said he is open to the idea of coach-led prayer.

If the Michigan Department of Education or the Michigan High School Athletic Association “said they’d like to work … about how you can incorporate prayer into sports events for kids, I’d certainly take it to the [school] board to say, ‘We could help pilot this; we could try this,’ ” DeFrance said. (A spokesman for the state athletic association emailed The Washington Post, saying: “This is strictly an individual school district issue in Michigan. We have no part in this decision-making process.” A spokesman for the Education Department wrote in an email that his agency “has not sent any guidance to local school districts on this issue at this time. We have made a request of our state attorney general’s office for a review of the decision.”)

If done well, DeFrance added, coach-led prayer could yield advantages for his district’s 2,000 students, serving as a way to learn about other cultures.

“I could see some real interesting things like, ‘Okay, Bill, you’re Hindu, you lead the prayer this week,’ and give some background about why Hindus pray,” he said. Plus, “I do think sometimes having a little bit of a spirit helps you to play.”

In Hawaii, Eva Andrade, president and chief executive of faith-based activist group the Hawaii Family Forum, is also eyeing ways to introduce prayer into schools and school competitions. People of faith feel unsafe at school, Andrade said, threatened by a 1947 Hawaii Board of Education policy that prohibits “prayer and other religious observances … organized or sponsored by schools.” The Supreme Court ruling, she said, offers the first chance in decades to change that policy — and her group is determined to take advantage of the opportunity.

“I would like them to allow people to bring their faith into their position without any fear,” Andrade said.

State-level advocacy is afoot in other places, too: In Ohio, an hour after the Supreme Court’s ruling was published, Lt. Gov. Jon Husted urgedschool districts to review and updatetheir policies on school prayer. And a few months before the ruling, in Kentucky, a Republican lawmaker and a Lexington rabbiteamed up on a bill requiring public-school students to silently pray, meditate or reflect in class.

Florida passeda similar law in June 2021that requires a moment of silence each day. Although the law drew strong criticism fromadvocates ofchurch-state separation, it thrilled Fraga, who persuaded her colleagues to hold a National Day of Prayer every May for the district’sroughly 330,000 students.

Fraga’s original proposal suggested school employees facilitate prayer-related events and programs. In an interview, she said she envisioned teachers taking the day to instruct students about the history of prayer and how different faiths worship.

Board vice chair Steve Gallon III, fearing violation of the Constitution, offered an amendment watering down the proposal. The versionthat passed in mid-April, Gallon said in an interview, simply “provides an opportunity for students to freely assemble and express themselves in honor of the National Day of Prayer. … Staff also has the right to do that, during non-duty times.”

Fraga still does not understand why it’s okay for the district to recognize LGBTQ History Month, with school-hosted events and celebrations, but not do something similar about prayer. Although she isrunning for mayor of the city of Doraland plans to leave the school board in November, she intends to continue her education advocacy — bolstered by the Supreme Court ruling, she says it may be possible to introduce more religion classes into public schools.

“I would love to see there be the ability to implement more religious teachings,” Fraga said. “There’s lessons that are taught right now in school that maybe certain families do not believe in, [and] students have to sit there and listen to what history has brought us to.”

Why not, she asked, also offer lessons on the Christianity, the “religion that has formed our nation”? As well as “the different types of religion,” she added.

‘I thought it was required’

In other places, educators are struggling to understand the fuss about the Supreme Court ruling, because prayer has long been part of sports events and school board meetings.

Amy Kruppe took over as superintendent in Hazel Park Schools, Mich., seven years ago. When she arrived from Illinois, she was surprised to find that school board members opened meetings with prayer — sometimes inviting “a man of the cloth” to lead proceedings.

“I said, ‘Wait a minute, this is not constitutional,’ ” Kruppe said. “But their feeling was it was important to them as an organization” — so to this day, the board opens its meetings with Christian prayer, Kruppe said.

Over the years, Kruppe has come around to the idea. There have never been complaints, apart from hers. She said coaches in Hazel Park also lead prayers at games, “and no one says anything about it.” She noted that Hazel Park, a district of about 3,200 students, is about 50 percent White, 50 percent Black and, as far as she can tell, nearly 100 percent Christian.

“I really think it’s the environment, the community you’re in,” Kruppe said. The ruling “just gives some individuals that might have already been doing it anyway the freedom to say, ‘It’s okay.’ ”

Steven Fogg, who sits on the school board of Clovis Unified School District in California, said coaches in hisdistrict of 43,000encourage prayer in a wink-wink-nod-nod sort of way. For example, the coach of his son’s high school football team allowed players five minutes of pre-game “team time,” widely understood as time for student-led prayer.

Fogg said his school board used to open its meetings with prayer — until 2019,when they received a cease-and-desist letter from the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

“So we just moved our prayer to have it before the school board meeting, in a setting where there are no students,” Fogg said. He added that although the Supreme Court ruling will probably make religious employees less fearful to be themselves at school, it “changes nothing” policy-wise “because we already have a strong faith-based school board and administration and many of our coaches.”

Others, though, are appalled by what they see as an erosion of the boundary between church and state.

In Salt Lake City, 50-year-old Thayne Warner is remembering his son’s struggles in high school, when his football coach called on players to pray before every game and at team dinners. The family lived in Aurora, Colo., at the time, and Warner — a former Mormon, now an atheist — grew angry when he saw how the tradition was affecting his boy.

“He had been called on to pray and had to decline and felt terrible afterwards, because he didn’t really know how to pray in the way that everyone else was praying — Mormon praying is somewhat different,” Warner said. “He felt like everyone was looking at him and judging him for not participating.”

Things got so bad, he said, that his son considered quitting the team. Incensed, Warner filed a complaint in 2016 with the help of the Freedom From Religion Foundation. The prayer ceased, and the coach was later fired.

Warner’s three older children are past school-age, and his two youngest do not play sports. But the Supreme Court’s ruling has him worried for other students. He says it will be difficult — maybe impossible — for other parents to act like he did.

“I just think students like my son are just going to be further put in an uncomfortable position,” Warner said.

And in Oklahoma, Kristi Robertson is concerned that more families will undergo what hers did.

Robertson contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation soon after her daughter told her about the third-grade teacher’s prayers, in which she was taught to thank Jesus for things like sunny days and good classroom behavior. The foundation submitted a complaint to the Mid-Del School District in May of 2019.

The family has since switched school districts, and Robertson is unsure what happened to the teacher, if anything. Rick Cobb, superintendent of the Mid-Del district, wrote in an email that he spoke “with school staff about the situation” but declined to share any more information, writing, “We do not discuss disciplinary issues involving students or employees.”

But she knows how the experience changed her daughter. On a video call, sitting beside her mother, Aurora said she enjoys praying and going to church with her best friend, a girl named Maria. She said that she believes in God and that she began believing in God when her third-grade teacher talked about God in class.

“The teacher, she said, ‘He is always watching you and offering forgiveness and stuff,’ ” Aurora said. At first, she thought praying “was a little weird, but I went along with it because I thought it was required.”


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Hallux
Junior Principal
1  seeder  Hallux    3 weeks ago

The Christian Nationalists are coming, the Christian Nationalists are coming!

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Hallux @1    3 weeks ago

There's still time to repent of your wicked ways!

/s

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    3 weeks ago

There is nothing to repent, both Heaven and Hell have No Vacancy signs on their gates.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2  Trout Giggles    3 weeks ago
in Kentucky, a Republican lawmaker and a Lexington rabbi teamed up on a bill requiring public-school students to silently pray , meditate or reflect in class.

What if you don't want to pray or meditate? Reflecting? So daydreaming is allowed in schools now?

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    3 weeks ago
So daydreaming is allowed in schools now?

How do you think I learned French?

J'vous ai apporté des bonbons
Parce que les fleurs c'est périssable ...

Jacques Brel

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @2.1    3 weeks ago

bonbons = candy

fleurs = flowers

J'vous = you and me?

I thought French was required for all Canadiens

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.1.2  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.1    3 weeks ago
  I brought you candy    
Because flowers are perishable

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Hallux @2.1.2    3 weeks ago

You're so sweet!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Kavika   replied to  Hallux @2.1    3 weeks ago

 boon zhoor, niwiciwakan.

 

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.1.5  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Kavika @2.1.4    3 weeks ago

Asani rattles my drum!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.6  Kavika   replied to  Hallux @2.1.5    3 weeks ago

Swahili I believe I think that dayewe'iged (Ojibwe) or taanboor (Michif/Cree) is more fitting for you.

Both mean drum beater or drummer. 

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
2.2  Right Down the Center  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    3 weeks ago

What if you don't want to pray or meditate? Reflecting? 

Maybe they could write "the US is a racist country" 100 times on the blackboard in the towns that have a CRT infested school board.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.2.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Right Down the Center @2.2    3 weeks ago
CRT

Is that Conservative Replacement Theory?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
2.2.2  Right Down the Center  replied to  Hallux @2.2.1    3 weeks ago

I have not heard about that being taught in schools but if it helps you sleep at night go for it.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.2.3  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Right Down the Center @2.2.2    3 weeks ago

Tucker has been schooling his viewers on it just about every night. It's better than drowsy-time tea.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
2.2.4  Right Down the Center  replied to  Hallux @2.2.3    3 weeks ago

I don't watch tucker so I don't know what he is talking about but I am pretty sure he is not in charge of any school boards.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.2.5  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @2.2.4    3 weeks ago

I guess because they are devoted Tucker fans they assume everyone is?

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2.2.6  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Texan1211 @2.2.5    3 weeks ago

Maybe we like Patton read Rommel's book.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.7  Tessylo  replied to  Hallux @2.2.1    3 weeks ago

Only morons believe CRT is being taught in any schools K-12.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Trout Giggles @2    3 weeks ago
What if you don't want to pray or meditate? Reflecting?

I cant help think back to my basic training days , we were given a choice , go to services or not , after a couple weeks most went to services , because those that did not were assigned KP of the barracks . My TI explained it in a way many of the recruits could understand , even if the service was not of our chosen faith , most military services were suppose to be non denominational , it was also instilling a sense of respect for others beliefs even IF we were only getting out of busy work created for us . we all ended up doing that busy work anyway after services .

Even though we may have gone , didnt mean wer had to listen , but the lesson of respecting others  did sink in .

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2.3.1  Texan1211  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3    3 weeks ago
but the lesson of respecting others  did sink in .

Too bad everyone couldn't have understood that.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.3.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3    3 weeks ago

I went to services during basic so I didn't get stuck cleaning toilets. It was a good way to get away from the TI for an hour and nobody screaming at you. But once I got to Tech School, Sundays were for sleeping

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
2.3.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3    3 weeks ago
were suppose to be non denominational ,

non- denominational what?  Christian?

What about all of the other major world belief systems?

If the goal is to make US military recruits respect other belief systems, then why weren't they taught to respect ALL of them - including the ones that do not worship a mythical being?

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3.4  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  mocowgirl @2.3.3    3 weeks ago

Of course i can not speak for what happens now , my memories of basic are 40 years old at best now .

 what i can say is when a basic training class back then was brought in for induction , everyone basically said what their faith was , and the trainers also asked . 

 what i can say is being christianity was the majority faith , but with different sects , the non denominational part focused on that back then , sort of a generic service .

 those that observed other faiths were also allowed to worship and gather to observe their faiths  the groups were just smaller .

 and military chaplins usually are also versed in other faiths practices, and if they are not they were at my time there , ecouraged to do so .  even if they didnt practice that faith  .

 keep in mind , military and civilian is 2 different worlds , so one has to try and figure out where faith s place is  in the military , where the structure is about authoritarian good order in the ranks .

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3.5  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Trout Giggles @2.3.2    3 weeks ago

lol so you were not the "latrine queen ".....

 me i was the chow runner , what was funny is i also had a profile to gain 40 pounds , if you remember , the chow runner presented the class to the attending chowhall TIs in the snake pit  , and ate last after the class was seated or relieved by the next classes chow runner ..... I had to inhale my chow to get out with the others in my class ...

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
2.3.6  mocowgirl  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3.4    3 weeks ago
Of course i can not speak for what happens now , my memories of basic are 40 years old at best now .

There have been major changes that better reflect the US society of today.  

Do you think that the recruits of today will manage to learn to respect other faiths?  

Defense Department expands its list of recognized religions (religionnews.com)

(RNS) Humanist? Deist? No religion?

No problem.

The   Department of Defense   announced a near doubling of its list of recognized religions. It will now formally recognize humanism and other minority faiths among members of the armed forces.

The move, which came at the end of March but was made public this week, means servicemen and women who are adherents of small faith groups are now guaranteed the same rights, privileges and protections granted to their peers who are members of larger faith groups.

The move was lauded by humanist organizations, which have been pushing for full recognition, including their own chaplains, for 10 years.

“Beyond Humanism, the new listing is a win for diversity in general,” Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers,   said in an announcement . “There have been prior declarations that the government or the military has recognized Humanism in one way or another. But this is different.”

Previously, the U.S. military recognized just over 100 religions.   The new list   has grown to 221 to include the earth-based faiths, such as heathens and Asatru, and an additional eight Protestant groups, including the International Communion of the Charismatic Christian Church.

Jewish servicemen and women may now choose among Orthodox, Conservative and Reform instead of just “Jewish.”

Torpy, a West Point alumnus whose humanism was not recognized when he attended in 1998, offered thanks to the Armed Forces Chaplains Board, which oversaw the new list.

Josh Heath, co-director of the   Open Halls Project , which works to support heathens and other earth-based faiths in the military, said the newly recognized groups will now find it easier to get their holidays off, travel off-base to religious services, or keep special religious items in the barracks.

“If you run into any miscommunication about your religious needs you can say this is my official religious preference and be accommodated,” he said.

Heath hopes it will make it easier for military heathens to find each other and form on-base communities.

And there’s another plus: The Department of Defense will now have more accurate counts of each recognized religious group, which varies widely depending on who’s counting.

According to MAAF figures , more than 22 percent of service personnel identify as “no religious preference,” and slightly more than 1 percent identify as “atheist” or “agnostic.” In 2010, the   Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute   estimated humanists make up 3.6 percent   of the U.S. military.

The new policy has its detractors. Writing for   Reporter , the official newspaper of the  Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod , Roger Drinnon said a “heavily secularized military culture, stemming from ongoing atheist activism and LGBT advocacy,” has led to “an environment where restrictions and even punitive actions reportedly are being imposed on chaplains, commanders and lower ranks who seek to serve without compromising their religious faith.”

Humanism was recognized by the Army in 2014 , but this new order expands that to all branches of the military.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.3.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  mocowgirl @2.3.6    3 weeks ago
Do you think that the recruits of today will manage to learn to respect other faiths?  

I’m not at all religious and have been since around 12, but I’m respectful of the religious beliefs of others.  If NT is an indicator, the respect of other or any religious beliefs is on the wane. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3.8  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  mocowgirl @2.3.6    3 weeks ago
Do you think that the recruits of today will manage to learn to respect other faiths?  

That entirely is up to the individual , just as it is in civilian society, also known as personal choice .  and the unenumerated right to freely choose whom to associate with . which is limited or non existant in the military structure .

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.3.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3.5    3 weeks ago

I was deck* sweeper. Did you go to Lackland? If so, then you remember the "deck" underneath the dorms (the dorms created an overhang). That was my chore. I liked it because I got to talk to the men in my flight

*It was called the PAD!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.3.10  TᵢG  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.7    3 weeks ago
If NT is an indicator, the respect of other or any religious beliefs is on the wane. 

Religious belief in the USA is on the wane.

nphi6goorkantlq89natnw.png
Fifty years ago, in 1971, 90% of U.S. adults identified with a Christian religion, 6% were non-Christian or another religion, and 4% did not have a religious preference. Thus, much of the change in the U.S. has been a shift away from Christian religions to no religion at all.

And this poll does not measure how much a religious person really believes.  I suspect quite a few religious people include a healthy does of agnostic factors.

As we learn more (typically via science) it is only natural that people will question what their religions have taught them and, in response, find their religious truths to not necessarily be so.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
2.3.11  mocowgirl  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.7    3 weeks ago
 If NT is an indicator, the respect of other or any religious beliefs is on the wane. 

Is it difficult to understand why adults in today's world don't respect a belief system that teaches mankind is born wicked and must be saved by jumping through hoops to please a being there is zero evidence of existing?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.3.12  Ozzwald  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3    3 weeks ago
but the lesson of respecting others  did sink in

But the people that were being forced to attend were not being respected, so that lesson went out the window.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.3.13  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @2.3.9    3 weeks ago

military-training-airman-air-force-memes.jpg

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.3.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @2.3.13    3 weeks ago

We didn't get ice cream until the second day

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.3.15  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.7    3 weeks ago

When I went to basic training (Army) it was mandatory to purchase a bible. I wasn't Christian but if you didn't buy one they would be very hard on you. 

Meantime I couldn't use the USO club in Augusta GA. because I was the ''wrong'' color. 

Water fountains, restaurants et al were segregated in town, on base they were not but the segregation was alive and well.

Ah yes, those Christians were quite the jokers.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.3.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @2.3.15    3 weeks ago

Augusta huh.  I arrived there in 1976 for my officer basic course.  As a young man from Ohio, GA was a new experience.  In my current and last job, I have been back many time over the past two decades.  Big changes for the better but with room to continue to grow.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.3.17  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.16    3 weeks ago

You should have been there in 1958/59. I've been back a few times none of which was by choice. It's improved in the cities get out in the boondocks and it hasn't changed much at all.  I was stuck at Benning for basic, AIT, and jump school, not a thrilling experience. Didn't mind the military or the training but the area including the entire state of GA was a shit hole as far as one being non-white.

But they were God-fearing Christians. Hallelujah

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3.18  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Trout Giggles @2.3.9    3 weeks ago

yup sure did 3709 , LOL and the small "smoking area and its buttcan where one had to "field strip" their butts  ?

 My TIs waited 4 whole days to say smokers fall to the rear , I had a pack Kool super longs that were all bummed off me because no one thought to bring a pack . 

After 2 drags of those menthol bastages , everyone was on their kiesters and dizzy .

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
2.3.19  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Ozzwald @2.3.12    3 weeks ago

Actually they are given a choice which leads to another lesson, not all choices will be what you want or expect , and all choices have consequenses.

can any former military relate to this scene?

Back into the iggy bin ozzy , see? i just made a choice right there. one to take you out to answer and another to put you back in .

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.3.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @2.3.17    3 weeks ago

I went to jump school after Gordon and a 15 week class at Sill.  I enjoyed jump school but kept getting dropped for laughing at the shit the black hats said:

- I’m going to tell you what I tell my wife every morning when I leave for work, keep your feet and knees together.

- Check can of peas

- Every morning I kick my dog in the ribs and ask, who do you love?  He always replies Yoooooo!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.3.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3.18    3 weeks ago

Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.

Now it’s take a knee, drink water.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.3.22  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.20    3 weeks ago

Knees in the breeze, trooper.

Wasn't Jody part of their repertoire?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.3.23  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @2.3.22    3 weeks ago

Jody was there when I left.

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
2.3.24  arkpdx  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.23    3 weeks ago

You're right!

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.3.25  Ozzwald  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3.19    3 weeks ago
Actually they are given a choice which leads to another lesson, not all choices will be what you want or expect , and all choices have consequenses.   can any former military relate to this scene?

Are you actually trying to justify this by comparing high school football to the military?  Really?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.3.26  sandy-2021492  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3    3 weeks ago
I cant help think back to my basic training days , we were given a choice , go to services or not , after a couple weeks most went to services , because those that did not were assigned KP of the barracks . My TI explained it in a way many of the recruits could understand , even if the service was not of our chosen faith , most military services were suppose to be non denominational , it was also instilling a sense of respect for others beliefs even IF we were only getting out of busy work created for us .

TBH, that seems like a lousy policy.  Kinda like giving smokers extra paid breaks at work over non-smokers.  It's punishing people for doing something that's not at all wrong or against any rules.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.3.27  sandy-2021492  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @2.3.19    3 weeks ago
all choices have consequenses.

When the consequence is a punishment from the government, that's a civil rights issue.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
2.4  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @2    3 weeks ago
So daydreaming is allowed in schools now?

It's always been allowed.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.4.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Jack_TX @2.4    3 weeks ago

Maybe where you went to school. But I was always being told to come back down to Earth and pay attention

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3  mocowgirl    3 weeks ago

We have laws to protect minors from the dangers of alcohol and tobacco use on their developing minds and bodies.

We should add laws to protect minors from indoctrination into religious cults.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
3.1  Greg Jones  replied to  mocowgirl @3    3 weeks ago

Absolutely!

I speak as a survivor of this evil kind of child abuse

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.1.1  mocowgirl  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1    3 weeks ago
I speak as a survivor of this evil kind of child abuse

As least you survived, just a miniscule example of the people who didn't.

Warning:  There are pictures of the dead at the link below.

An apocalyptic cult, 900 dead: remembering the Jonestown massacre, 40 years on | Religion | The Guardian

Followers were expected to devote themselves completely to the church’s utopian project: they turned over their personal wealth, worked long hours of unpaid labor for the church and often broke contact with their families. They were expected to raise their children within the commune. As a show of commitment, Peoples Temple members were asked to sign false testimonials that they had molested their children, which the church kept for potential blackmail.

In his 1980 study of Jonestown, the writer Shiva Naipaul, younger brother of VS Naipaul, argued that the Peoples Temple was at heart a fundamentalist religious project – “obsessed with sin and images of apocalyptic destruction, authoritarian in its innermost impulses, instinctively thinking in terms of the saved and the damned”.

The people of Jonestown, some acceptant and serene, others probably coerced, queued to receive cups of cyanide punch and syringes. The children – more than 300 – were poisoned first, and can be heard crying and wailing on the commune’s own audio tapes, later recovered by the FBI.
 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.2  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @3    3 weeks ago
We should add laws to protect minors from indoctrination into religious cults.

Below is a good example of how easy it is to radicalize youth into jumping into waging/supporting war based on religious beliefs.

We have enough division in the US without promoting even more of it in our public schools.

Shamima Begum makes another plea to be allowed to return to Britain | Daily Mail Online

Begun said: 'The problem is at the age of being a teenager you're very arrogant and you don't listen to people so sometimes you really do have to learn the hard way.

'I could be used as an example, like you don't want to end up like her. If it stops children making the same mistake that I made of course use me as an example.

'Tell the kids "don't be like her, don't become like her".'

She told the interviewers that she was trafficked by ISIS fighters to be a bride, along-side several other British girls who went to Syria. She said that it 'happened so fast' - in less than a year, and that she was radicalised online.

She has since claimed she was groomed by ISIS and her jihadi husband Yago Riedijk from the Netherlands, who she shared three children with.

Yet after being captured near the Syrian town of Baghuz as ISIS fighters fled, she lamented the group for being 'weak'.

She also said that the sight of a 'severed head in a bin didn't faze me at all' because it was that of 'a captured fighter… an enemy of Islam', defiantly adding: 'I don't regret coming here.'
 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

"Under the bill, the moment of silence or reflection of at least one minute, but not to exceed two minutes, will be observed.

The policy must ensure that all students remain seated and silent without distracting anyone so that all may, "in the exercise of his or her individual choice," meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity which does not interfere with individual choice."

Horrifying.  Up to two whole minutes of silence.   The world is ending. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
4.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    3 weeks ago

2 minutes of silence will not stop the world from ending with a bang and a whimper.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2  Tessylo  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    3 weeks ago

Its just the start

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3  Texan1211  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    3 weeks ago
Horrifying.  Up to two whole minutes of silence.   The world is ending. 

I wonder what those opposed to this are really afraid of.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
4.3.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3    3 weeks ago

Not the same thing that proponents are afraid of.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.2  Texan1211  replied to  Hallux @4.3.1    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3    3 weeks ago
I wonder what those opposed to this are really afraid of.

Teaching children that a mythical being is going to torture them for eternity because they are evil, sinful creatures who can only be "saved" if they donate their lives and at least 10% of their income to some guy who heads up a church.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
4.3.4  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.2    3 weeks ago

I've noticed it does not take much to impress you.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.5  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.3    3 weeks ago
"Under the bill, the moment of silence or reflection of at least one minute, but not to exceed two minutes, will be observed. The policy must ensure that all students remain seated and silent without distracting anyone so that all may, "in the exercise of his or her individual choice," meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity which does not interfere with individual choice."

"Under the bill, the moment of silence or reflection of at least one minute, but not to exceed two minutes, will be observed.

The policy must ensure that all students remain seated and silent without distracting anyone so that all may, "in the exercise of his or her individual choice," meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity which does not interfere with individual choice."

Hmmmmm. Where does it say anything about making people pray, or even telling them about God?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  Hallux @4.3.4    3 weeks ago
I've noticed it does not take much to impress you.

And you rarely disappoint!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.7  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.5    3 weeks ago
Hmmmmm. Where does it say anything about making people pray, or even telling them about God?

What is the purpose of imposed silence/reflection on children?  

Could there be a link between the people pushing for it and the reason for it?

If anything, we have way too many self-absorbed people who seem to believe their purpose in life is navel-gazing.  Why would it be beneficial to US society to encourage more of it?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.8  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.7    3 weeks ago
What is the purpose of imposed silence/reflection on children?  

Why answer a question with a question?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4.3.9  Sean Treacy  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.7    3 weeks ago
  Why would it be beneficial to US society to encourage more of it?

I think one of the major problems facing the US is a lack of self awareness. A minute without screens and distractions might actually help. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.10  mocowgirl  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.9    3 weeks ago
I think one of the major problems facing the US is a lack of self awareness.

I could not agree more.  However, the people who are not self-aware are probably not capable of it.  Those folks spend their lives butting into other people's lives where they are not wanted or needed.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.11  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.8    3 weeks ago
Why answer a question with a question?

Why do you ask?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.12  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.11    3 weeks ago

it is fairly obvious if one actually follows the conversation.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.13  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.12    3 weeks ago
it is fairly obvious if one actually follows the conversation.

Do conversations contain questions or are only statements considered to be conversation?

Are there standard rules on what is considered a conversation?

What about debate?  

Are there rules for conversations that exclude debate on NT?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.14  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.13    3 weeks ago

Ah, why be obtuse?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.15  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.14    3 weeks ago
Ah, why be obtuse?

Why not be obtuse?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.16  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.15    3 weeks ago

I will leave that to you.

I hope you know why you act as you do.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
4.3.17  Right Down the Center  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.3    3 weeks ago

Wow, they are doing all that in 2 minutes of silence?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.18  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @4.3.17    3 weeks ago
Wow, they are doing all that in 2 minutes of silence?

Apparently we all didn't read the same article.

Or:

"God works in mysterious ways"

Or:

"It's a miracle!"

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.19  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.16    3 weeks ago
I hope you know why you act as you do.

I experienced firsthand the abuse of living in a country filled with religious zealots who tried to impose their sect's religious dogma into my life to my detriment.

I know exactly how evil to the very core these people are to people both inside and outside their sect from what I have personally lived and from studying the history of their belief systems.

I wouldn't wish that living Hell on anyone, but especially children should never be subjected to that kind of abuse.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.20  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.19    3 weeks ago

Your personal trials and tribulations aside, what you describe as your personal experience is a far cry from what is occurring here.

Best learn to separate the two.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.21  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.20    3 weeks ago
Your personal trials and tribulations aside, what you describe as your personal experience is a far cry from what is occurring here

Isn't this seed about Christians trying to teach their beliefs to children in public schools?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.22  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.21    3 weeks ago

Your devotion to obtuseness doesn't look any better now than it did earlier.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.3.23  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3.22    3 weeks ago
Your devotion to obtuseness doesn't look any better now than it did earlier.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Which is why some people view imposing their religious dogma as their purpose in life and some people see it as completely unacceptable because it serves no good purpose whatsoever except to spread division and hatred. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.24  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.3.23    3 weeks ago
Which is why some people view imposing their religious dogma as their purpose in life and some people see it as completely unacceptable because it serves no good purpose whatsoever except to spread division and hatred.

What you 'think' is happening simply isn't happening.

Pretending that kids are being indoctrinated is all in your head in this instance.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    3 weeks ago
The policy must ensure that all students remain seated and silent without distracting anyone

But what if standing and dancing the whatootsie is your way of reflecting?

"in the exercise of his or her individual choice," meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity which does not interfere with individual choice."

But it is not individual choice, since they are being told what choices they can make.

Horrifying.  Up to two whole minutes of silence.   The world is ending. 

Apparently since the people sponsoring this process feel the world would end if they aren't given those 2 minutes.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
4.5  Jack_TX  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    3 weeks ago
Horrifying.  Up to two whole minutes of silence.   The world is ending.

I taught public school.  I was known as the teacher who could get even the worst kids to behave.  Two minutes of silence every day isn't happening.  Not a chance in hell. 

98% of the faculty in any public school isn't going to be able to enforce it....nor should they.  Good teachers engage kids, not suppress them because some moron who has never taught school thinks it's a good idea.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4.5.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5    3 weeks ago
Not a chance in hell.

If a kid can't sit quietly for a minute a day, he shouldn't be in regular schooling. That's as damning a statement as one can make about a student. That's almost a total lack of self control. 

As I I think about it, you've changed me from a "who cares about a minute"  to believing it's actually would be a great benefit. IF a kid lacks the ability to control himself for a minute, nothing else is really possible. It's like teaching a baby to roll over before trying to teach the 100 meter hurdles. 

ood teachers engage kids, not suppress them because some moron who has never taught school thinks it's a good idea.

So. so much time is wasted during a day, it seems ludicrous to believe a single minute or two will somehow negatively impact performance. And given sitting quietly isn't a skill they've mastered, it seems like teaching that should be the focus until kids have a minimum of self control.

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
5  evilgenius    3 weeks ago

Bow to Baphomet bitches! 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1  Texan1211  replied to  evilgenius @5    3 weeks ago
Bow to Baphomet bitches! 

Whatever floats your boat!

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5.2  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  evilgenius @5    3 weeks ago

and if one says no?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @5.2    3 weeks ago

He'll tickle you with his horns

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
5.2.2  evilgenius  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @5.2    3 weeks ago
and if one says no?

Good luck with that. Very few can say no to Life and Love.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5.2.3  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  evilgenius @5.2.2    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 Life and love are full of choices , problem some people have is they cant force others to make the choices that they want them to.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5.2.4  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.1    3 weeks ago

ever see a polled goat ? 

 if he tries to tickle , he will be lookin for his nubs ....

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
5.2.5  evilgenius  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @5.2.3    3 weeks ago
problem some people have is they cant force others to make the choices that they want them to.

Which is what the dumb religious fuckers in the article are trying to do. If they want to try and force their flavor of religion on others, that leaves them open for others to do the same to them. 

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5.2.6  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  evilgenius @5.2.5    3 weeks ago

It has been my experience that one doesnt have to be religious to be a dumb mother fucker that attempts to force others to their will and do things the way that the DFs want .. i am going to disagree that a 1-2 min moment of silence is forced religious reflection or anything except what it is , a 1-2 min moment of silence where one can do as they please , whatever that is as long as it in silence . it took me longer to contemplate your reply , and then contemplate my response  and then type this out and post than those 2 mins , oh and i did all that , silently..

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
5.2.7  evilgenius  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @5.2.6    3 weeks ago
It has been my experience that one doesnt have to be religious to be a dumb mother fucker that attempts to force others to their will and do things the way that the DFs want ..

True, but not the topic of the article.

i am going to disagree that a 1-2 min moment of silence is forced religious reflection or anything except what it is , a 1-2 min moment of silence where one can do as they please , whatever that is as long as it in silence . it took me longer to contemplate your reply , and then contemplate my response  and then type this out and post than those 2 mins , oh and i did all that , silently..

There is more to the article than 1-2 minutes of silence. There are mentions of pushing other boundaries and outright denial of separation of church and state in schools and school sports. From "intelligent design" to 2 minutes of silence; these are nothing more than an opening for more religion to creep in elsewhere. There are too many places where it's pray to play. 

At present by law there are no barriers for students to follow their religious beliefs. They don't need any help or nods from faculty and any hinderance of such is as wrong as teachers/faculty/coaches implying they should acquiesce. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
6  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

One has to credit it the author for focusing on  an example from years ago,  that was unconstitutional then and remains  unconstitutional  now, and using it to represent the type of "prayer"  that's supposedly trying to be imposed on schools in order to scare gullible readers.  She knows her audience. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
7  charger 383    3 weeks ago

How will this make kids smarter?

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
7.1  evilgenius  replied to  charger 383 @7    3 weeks ago

It doesn't make they smarter, but it does make them more controllable as adult voters.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7.2  Sparty On  replied to  charger 383 @7    3 weeks ago

It won’t.    It’ll just seems to trigger more haters.    And by the way, most don’t participate in sports to get smarter.    Classroom time was for that.    Extracurricular activities were for enjoyment, camaraderie, character development, etc, etc. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
8  Hal A. Lujah    3 weeks ago

In the never ending quest to dumb down the American populace as early and efficiently as possible, is anyone really surprised that time in school is now minute by minute being stolen from practical education and handed over to evangelism?  To those who mock that it’s only two minutes, imagine yourselves being forced into silence to observe the dumbest thing you can think of while in school.  Yes, to nonbelievers the concept of god can be extremely stupid.  To those who have mocked those warning of a coming Dominionism, we told you so.  

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
8.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @8    3 weeks ago

Yep, and the sky is falling

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @8.1    3 weeks ago
Yep, and the sky is falling

Why, don't ya just know the world will end as we know it if someone somewhere prays??

Oh, no!!!!!!!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2  Texan1211  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @8    3 weeks ago

gee, couldn't the nonbelievers simply use the time for introspection?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.1  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2    3 weeks ago

why couldn't the believers be quiet for a minute at home before they go to school?  Or have a prayer there? 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
8.2.2  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2    3 weeks ago

If you were asked in school to take a two minute moment of silence to appease the flat earth society would you find it in any way educational or enlightening?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.3  Texan1211  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @8.2.2    3 weeks ago

I damn sure wouldn't be crying about it!

Live and let live, I say!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.4  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @8.2.1    3 weeks ago
why couldn't the believers be quiet for a minute at home before they go to school?  Or have a prayer there? 

And what makes you think they don't pray at home?

Someone praying should have no discernible effect on anyone else.

It hurts no one.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.5  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2    3 weeks ago

“…gee, couldn't the nonbelievers simply use the time for introspection?”

Jezzus, couldn’t the ‘believers’ simply understand that their beliefs are not necessarily the beliefs of their neighbors?

Pray away as one will, but don’t require it at school, in a gym, on a football field, or at the workplace.

Prayer should never, ever be forced, or worse, enforced. 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.6  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.4    3 weeks ago

“It hurts no one.”

Until it is forced upon everyone. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.7  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.5    3 weeks ago
Jezzus, couldn’t the ‘believers’ simply understand that their beliefs are not necessarily the beliefs of their neighbors?

Yes, and no one is being forced to pray. They are free to be respectfully quiet while others engage in prayer, meditation, or free-thinking of whatever they choose.

I see no where in the article that anyone is being forced to listen to prayers or even participate in them.

Pray away as one will, but don’t require it at school, in a gym, on a football field, or at the workplace. Introspection should never, ever be forced.

It isn't required. Neither is introspection. Let's just stick to the actual facts, eh?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.8  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.6    3 weeks ago
Until it is forced upon everyone.

It isn't being forced on anyone.

Let's stick to the facts.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.9  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.7    3 weeks ago

“They are free to be respectfully quiet while others engage in prayer, meditation, or free-thinking of whatever they choose.”

Neither the time nor the place. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.10  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.4    3 weeks ago
It hurts no one.

The dogma of many sects of the Christian religion hurts women wherever the following is taught and accepted into society.

Below is just one example of how the dogma contained in the OT and the NT is detrimental to women.

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. (biblehub.com)
Context

Instructions to Women
11 A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness.  12   I do not permit   a woman   to teach   or   to exercise authority over   a man;   she is to remain   quiet.   13 For Adam was formed first, and then Eve.…



Cross References
1 Corinthians 14:34
Women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Titus 2:5
to be self-controlled, pure, managers of their households, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be discredited.



Treasury of Scripture

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.11  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.9    3 weeks ago
Neither the time nor the place. 

Not your call.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.12  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @8.2.10    3 weeks ago

If I pray, it has ZERO effect on YOU, no matter how you mangle and twist things.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.13  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.4    3 weeks ago

     " And what makes you think they don't pray at home?"

That is where they should pray.  They don't need to stop everything and make everybody wait while they pray and tell the others to be quiet for them.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.14  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @8.2.13    3 weeks ago
That is where they should pray. 

Actually, they can pray anywhere.

They don't need to stop everything and make everybody wait while they pray and tell the others to be quiet for them.

Students are told to be quiet all the time for a variety of reasons.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.15  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.4    3 weeks ago
It hurts no one.

Depends on what the Christian kids are taught on how to judge and treat others.  

Christian scripture is very harmful to women who don't want to spend their life being a doormat to a man.

25 Warning Bible Verses About Evil Women And Bad Wives (biblereasons.com)

Bible verses about evil women

Scripture lets us know to stay away from evil women. They are greedy, rebellious, unsubmissive, wicked, adulterous, gossiping, slandering, and sexually immoral women. Bad wives and evil women in the Bible have done great damage such as lead Solomon astray, betray Samson, and order the killing of John the Baptist.

Evil women will cause Christian men to compromise and sin. They are on the wrong path and will bring you down with them. Beware!

In every nice-sized church there are worldly women put there by Satan to trap godly men.

They might profess to know Christ, but watch out. It doesn’t matter how beautiful she is.

It doesn’t matter if you think it’s love. If a woman is persuading you to sin or is giving signs that she will not be a submissive wife, end the relationship.

It is best for a Christian man to find a true Christian woman. Proverbs 31:12 “She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.”  What fellowship can light have with darkness ?
 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.16  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.14    3 weeks ago

why do they get to be special? 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.17  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.11    3 weeks ago

“Not your call.”

And neither is it yours.

Hence the debate. Does one accept diversity of thought in the understanding ‘prayer’ should not be part of the educational environment or does one endorse it, vote accordingly, and then applaud the legislation? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.18  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @8.2.15    3 weeks ago

If you can find where it says someone must pray to a Christian God, you will begin to have a hint of a point.

Pray, meditate, reflect, remain still and quiet, whatever.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.19  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.17    3 weeks ago
Hence the debate. Does one accept diversity of thought in the understanding ‘prayer’ should not be part of the educational environment or does one legislate it and thus endorse it? 

Prayer isn't being demanded here.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.20  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @8.2.16    3 weeks ago
why do they get to be special? 

Do you think it is even possible to outlaw all prayer in schools?

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.21  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.14    3 weeks ago
Actually, they can pray anywhere.

Seems ... "Seperation of Church and State" is getting "Warped Again !

“Congress shall make no law [1] respecting an establishment of religion, or [2] prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” Notice that clause [1] does not state that “Congress shall make no law respecting a person with religious convictions. ” It states “ Congress shall make no law respecting an  establishment  of religion. ” In other words, the government cannot establish a national religion funded by taxpayer dollars.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.22  Texan1211  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.21    3 weeks ago

I think that some folks confuse 'freedom of religion' with 'freedom from religion'.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.23  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.19    3 weeks ago

“Prayer isn't being demanded here.”

Call it or don’t call it whatever you want…it is unnecessary, not to mention unconstitutional…which is the real reason for all the shenanigans…to get this before the current SCOTUS and see another freedom disappear.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.24  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.23    3 weeks ago

Please point out where prayer is being demanded.

Or where students are forced to participate in it.

Barring that, you have no argument that makes a lick of sense.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.25  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.12    3 weeks ago
If I pray, it has ZERO effect on YOU, no matter how you mangle and twist things.

This is about children being exposed to religious observance sanctioned by the government.

It will have an effect on them.

It will be an attempt to validate religious belief as having a reality that there is a supernatural being that should be acknowledged, worshipped and obeyed.

No matter how it is dressed up as innocent, there is nothing innocent about indoctrinating children into religious belief in a public school.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.26  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @8.2.25    3 weeks ago
This is about children being exposed to religious observance sanctioned by the government.

You simply invented that, because it isn't happening in this case.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
8.2.27  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.3    3 weeks ago

I damn sure wouldn't be crying about it!

So if the left starts clamoring for minutes of public school time to be devoted to silent thought to honor anything you consider idiotic, you will not cry about it.  Good to know (liar).

This is why I stopped wasting brain cells on NT.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.28  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.26    3 weeks ago
You simply invented that, because it isn't happening in this case.

How many years have US schools operated that students did not need a government sanctioned break to pray? 

Have students neglected to pray all those years when there was not a government sanctioned break to pray?

Why the push to have one now?  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.29  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @8.2.28    3 weeks ago

A couple of minutes of silence isn't demanding prayer, nor is it government sanctioning prayer.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.30  Texan1211  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @8.2.27    3 weeks ago

Cease communicating to me if you insist on calling me a liar.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.31  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.29    3 weeks ago
A couple of minutes of silence isn't demanding prayer, nor is it government sanctioning prayer.

Then what has changed that there should be a government sanctioned silence for any reason other than a national observance of some monumental event?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.32  Ender  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @8.2.27    3 weeks ago

Having the whole school sit for several minutes in silence is idiotic in itself.

The people defending this...even more so.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.33  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.30    3 weeks ago

“Cease communicating to me if you insist on calling me a liar.”

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
8.2.34  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.33    3 weeks ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
8.2.35  Right Down the Center  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.9    3 weeks ago

Yea. The last thing we want in school is free thinking about anything you wish.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.36  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.20    3 weeks ago

             "Do you think it is even possible to outlaw all prayer in schools?"

Not as long as they have tests and pop quizzes

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.37  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.29    3 weeks ago

It is a waste of time that the students are required to be there and taxpayers are paying for and government employees with need to enforce.   

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
8.2.38  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.23    3 weeks ago
not to mention unconstitutional

I would love to hear the rationalization , of how creating a 1-2 min moment of silence in a classroom would be unconstitutional.

 If it were used for forced prayer , you might have a case , but since it is silent , there is no telling what would be thought , or done .

 one girl could be thinking about what she will wear on her date later , little johnny ( that dirty rascal) might have just heard george carlins bit on 6 sins in one feel and wondering if he can beat that six ., someone might be praying in their head for any number of things , like a test or that someone isnt knocked up or that they pass their drivers exam . Some may even be moved to discuss later why there is such a 1-2 min moment of silence or what the 1st  actually says about religion

Thing is , the 1st says the government cant establish a religion as the national religion , what it also says is that the free exersize can not be restricted if one chooses to do so ,  the second you try and restrict or deny someone from freely exersizing their religion , you have just violated the constitution in doing so .

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.39  Ender  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @8.2.38    3 weeks ago

One does not have a right to shove their religion down others throats.

Why make all kids sit silent for two minutes every day? Who came up with this idiotic idea?

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
8.2.40  pat wilson  replied to  Ender @8.2.39    3 weeks ago
One does not have a right to shove their religion down others throats. Why make all kids sit silent for two minutes every day? Who came up with this idiotic idea?

One does NOT have the right to shove their religion down others throats, you're right.

To have kids sit silent for two minutes every day is brilliant, to me. It teaches patience and possibly self awareness. What could possible go wrong with children (or adults) to sitting quietly for a moment.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.41  Ender  replied to  pat wilson @8.2.40    3 weeks ago

It is the dumbest thing I have ever heard and has no point to it what so ever.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
8.2.42  pat wilson  replied to  Ender @8.2.41    3 weeks ago

Got it.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
8.2.43  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Ender @8.2.39    3 weeks ago
One does not have a right to shove their religion down others throats.

With that i wholeheartedly agree with,  no one or entity has any right to demand someone follow whatever their religion is or what it demands , at the same time no one should use their religious beliefs  to attempt to force someone to conform to what those beliefs are , example someone wont contribute to some cause ? well thats not very christian of you is a response i have heard , without knowing if the person is a christian or not , it is simply assumed .

 all the first says about religion is that the government , federal and on down , can not make any one religion or a sect of any religion the de facto religion of the land , it also says that no law can be passed to abridge or infringe on any persons right to freely practice their religion . so there really shouldnt be any places that if aperson desires to pray or make a statement of religious connotation  should exist .

 if i follow what you say about any expression of religion anywhere is to be "shoving it down my throat , " then i would also have to consider 2 men kissing in public as the shoving of homosexuality down my throat , i do not of course , but you get the point ,  and to me irrelevent because i also have the choice to ignore and simply smile and walk away . i use to have fun when i was younger with the born agains doing just that when they started their sermons , still do it to some tooand always get a kick out of their reaction .

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.44  Trout Giggles  replied to  mocowgirl @8.2.10    3 weeks ago

And that all comes from Paul. Jesus never said anything like that

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.45  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.22    3 weeks ago
I think that some folks confuse 'freedom of religion' with 'freedom from religion'.

That's a "Given" !

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.46  afrayedknot  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @8.2.43    3 weeks ago

“so there really shouldnt be any places that if aperson desires to pray or make a statement of religious connotation  should exist .”

Agreed.

But there should also never be a rule, law, or amendment that requires a moment of silence to allow for prayer in any public setting. Congress included.

An antiquated ritual that is symbolic at best, and embracing symbolism that if it excludes any one, or requires any accommodation, it is antithetical to everything we supposedly stand for.

Prayer is by definition a private matter, it has no need and no place to become part of the public domain. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.47  Ender  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.45    3 weeks ago
I think that some folks confuse 'freedom of religion' with 'freedom from religion'.

Another dumb thing. So people can have freedom of religion yet no one has any freedom from any religion?

Do you all hear yourselves? It is saying it is ok to be religious and no one has any freedom from it....

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.48  Ender  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @8.2.43    3 weeks ago

It has long been held that government should be secular as to avoid religious preference. Now we have people outright saying that the nation should be run according to their God...

Is that not saying the government should be a religion?

Sounds like it to me.

As far as 'praying', which to me is just code word for idiots asking for a favor, Pray all anyone wants. Just don't make everyone else have to sit there in silence while you do.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.49  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @8.2.47    3 weeks ago

I had a conversation with a co-worker about prayers before a high school football game. He said if you don't like it, don't listen to it. That was pretty dumb. How am I supposed to avoid listening to a Big Giant Voice telling me to get on my feet and pray with everyone?

Do you find yourself at a meal with people who pray before they eat? Do you wait for them to finish or do you go ahead and eat? I used to wait, but not anymore

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.50  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Ender @8.2.47    3 weeks ago
yet no one has any freedom from any religion?

You have the Power to "Change the Channel" all on your own. It's not like your "Forced" to Stand and Rubber Neck. If you do, that's your choice, NO ONE ELSES ! 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
8.2.51  afrayedknot  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.50    3 weeks ago

“…the Power to "Change the Channel".”

And just who is doing the programming, dropout, that it requires those that don’t adhere to quietly and respectfully acquiesce?

If you choose to take a moment, say two minutes…and reflect upon it, with every parenthetically abused deflection, you are actually making the argument for those you chastise. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.52  Ender  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.50    3 weeks ago

I do not have to alter my time or schedule just so some jackass can pray about a bunion...

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
8.2.53  evilgenius  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.50    3 weeks ago
You have the Power to "Change the Channel" all on your own.

So do the aggrieved religious wingnuts. No one is forcing them to stand around and be a nuisance. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
8.2.54  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  charger 383 @8.2.1    3 weeks ago
why couldn't the believers be quiet for a minute at home before they go to school?

"When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get." - Matthew 6:5

Because some need to be seen being supposedly righteous as their faith is nothing but a façade hiding their truly corrupt hearts from the eyes of others. I believe many, religious conservatives especially, wear their faith as a badge they believe denotes a superior identity that they cling to as they look down on others.

If they didn't constantly attempt to show their faith publicly, how would anyone else be able to know how righteous they are in order for others to look up at them in awe? How would they look down their noses at other faiths and non-believers if they weren't publicly displaying their supposed superiority? There are as many if not more practitioners of Christian supremacy as there are those of white supremacy with many right wing conservative Christians in America combining both.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.55  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.49    3 weeks ago

I use to try to ignore it and just look around at the people. It was always funny to me as some of them would have their eyes open, looking around and not even paying attention.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.56  charger 383  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8.2.54    3 weeks ago

you are very correct

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.57  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @8.2.52    3 weeks ago

And who asked you to alter your precious schedule?

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
8.2.61  arkpdx  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.49    3 weeks ago
How am I supposed to avoid listening to a Big Giant Voice telling me to get on my feet and pray with everyone? 

Why can't you? You seem to ignore everything else you don't want to see or hear 

Do you find yourself at a meal with people who pray before they eat? Do you wait for them to finish or do you go ahead and eat?

I wait. It is the polite and mannerly thing to do. 

I used to wait, but not anymore 

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.69  Texan1211  replied to    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.76  Trout Giggles  replied to    3 weeks ago

"Look at me!"

"Look at me!"

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.77  Trout Giggles  replied to    3 weeks ago
What is typical and unsurprising is you have zero argument and only want to try to disparage others.

He's not alone here.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.78  Ender  replied to    3 weeks ago

This is the first time I have commented to you in months, if not a year.

Delusion is strong in some.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.79  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.76    3 weeks ago

Exactly. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8.2.81  charger 383  replied to  arkpdx @8.2.61    3 weeks ago

If I am at a private event or dinner by choice where there is a prayer I don't mind, if it is not too long.      

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.82  Texan1211  replied to    3 weeks ago
Most definitely

A good upbringing that includes tolerance is noteworthy today!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.86  Trout Giggles  replied to  charger 383 @8.2.81    3 weeks ago

I do, too, I just said that to get a rise out of someone.

But if somebody at my house wants to say a prayer over the meal I just cooked, I tell them go ahead, I'm eating

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.88  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  evilgenius @8.2.53    3 weeks ago
No one is forcing them to stand around and be a nuisance. 

A nuisance to ....... Whom ?

I'm not overtly or Majorly  Religious, But someone Praying in front of me never bothered me. Why does it Bother YOU and some others soooo much ?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.89  Texan1211  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.88    3 weeks ago
Why does it Bother YOU and some others soooo much ?

One word:

Intolerance

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.90  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Ender @8.2.52    3 weeks ago
I do not have to alter my time or schedule just so some jackass can pray about a bunion...

When did that happen to YOU ?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.93  Ender  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.90    3 weeks ago

Are you people for real?

I posted a construct.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.94  Trout Giggles  replied to    3 weeks ago

I really resent someone who knows I don't pray wanting to come into MY house and insist on praying before we eat! That takes a lot of nerve.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.95  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.89    3 weeks ago
Intolerance

But........ hmmmmmm.

Isn't that the opposite of "THE RELIGION" of the "left" ?

I figured They Revered it (tolerance), Practically Worship it (tolerance) !

Do THEY now have short circuit they can't figure out, or "Care" to figure out ?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.96  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.94    3 weeks ago

Isn't it moronic those folks that say we're intolerant of their religion being forced down our throats and being made the law?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.97  Ender  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.94    3 weeks ago

I really think some people think everyone does it (Or thinks they should).

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.98  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Ender @8.2.93    3 weeks ago
Are you people for real?

Why....of course. I just pinched myself to make sure.

Thanks for checking on me, maybe even praying for me.

Again....Thanks !

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.99  Texan1211  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.95    3 weeks ago
Isn't that the opposite of "THE RELIGION" of the "left" ?

Normally, yes. But in matters of religion, all bets are off.

Tolerance for everything EXCEPT religion.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.100  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to    3 weeks ago
It didn't.

But....it may have been a "Theory" I guess. We know how those go  though !

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.101  Ender  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.98    3 weeks ago
even praying for me

Not gonna happen. I believe in karma.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Expert
8.2.102  Raven Wing  replied to    3 weeks ago
You should probably just put him back on ignore and let him make a fool of himself.

I have him and some others like him on Ignore, as they have nothing to say that interests me in the slightest, so I don't see their inane, hate induced and deliberately worded to incite comments that have no purpose other than to make fools out of those who endlessly play their games. However, I still see the comments by others to them that does nothing but give them their desired and craved attention. We all know who they are, and so do they. They are laughing their sick asses off at how easy it is to make a fool of those who keep endlessly commenting to them, thinking they are showing others how big a fool the hate mongers are, when they are in fact making a bigger fool of themselves for falling for their BS. 

The actual contributors to their BS are those who endlessly feed their extreme ego and self-aggrandizement are to blame for allowing them to continue to make NT look like a hate fest site.

Ignore them. All of them. Only then can the rest of us feel inclined, or even have any desire, to participate in discussions and debates.

If this garners me a ticket, so be it. I no longer care.

JMOO

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.103  Tessylo  replied to  Ender @8.2.93    3 weeks ago

Pay no mind to certain folks.  They're the ones who refer to President Biden as Brandon.  

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
8.2.104  arkpdx  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.51    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.105  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Ender @8.2.101    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.106  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.99    3 weeks ago
Tolerance for everything EXCEPT religion.

Well.... "Certain" religions anyway ! 

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
8.2.107  evilgenius  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.99    3 weeks ago
Tolerance for everything EXCEPT religion.

Get back to me when groups start advocating legislation to teach science during church services. Until then your point worthless. 

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.108  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  afrayedknot @8.2.51    3 weeks ago
And just who is doing the programming,

YOU....of Course !

That requires nothing more than going about YOUR OWN business and making YOUR OWN life !

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.109  Texan1211  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.106    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8.2.110  Texan1211  replied to  evilgenius @8.2.107    3 weeks ago
Get back to me when groups start advocating legislation to teach science during church services. Until then your point worthless. 

Says he who claimed he doesn't even read my posts!

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.111  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.109    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
8.2.112  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @8.2.97    3 weeks ago

I know, right? Even after I have specifically told them I don't believe in God

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
8.2.113  arkpdx  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @8.2.111    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
8.2.114  arkpdx  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.94    3 weeks ago

So who is now trying to force their views on others. Tell me just how does it hurt you to have someone else pray either in your house or in public. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
8.2.115  arkpdx  replied to    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
8.2.116  mocowgirl  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.94    3 weeks ago
I really resent someone who knows I don't pray wanting to come into MY house and insist on praying before we eat! That takes a lot of nerve

Why are these people in your life?  What purpose do they serve if they are that rude, that disrespectful to the hostess?

When I became ignostic, I mislabeled myself as an atheist to friends/family.  This only resulted in harassment and hate.  

Of course, they don't really understand ignostic any more than they understand atheist so I have given up even trying to have any contact with them because they can't help themselves but to eventually wind the conversation back to my lack of belief in their deity and why there absolutely positively has to be God and it is their God.

I really don't care what most religions believe and practice until they make it a point to impose their religious beliefs in my government.

To date, I think I am still on good terms with all of the Hindus, Buddhists and Jainists because none of them have insisted I learn about, respect and adhere to their religious laws on any level.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
8.2.117  seeder  Hallux  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.94    3 weeks ago
I really resent someone who knows I don't pray wanting to come into MY house and insist on praying before we eat!

As my dad said to my mom many a year ago, "then why are you serving burnt offerings"? A slight he paid for many a time over a score of years.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
8.2.118  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  arkpdx @8.2.113    3 weeks ago
removed for context
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9  Texan1211    3 weeks ago

Why are folks so easily perturbed if someone prays?

Or quietly stands or sits for 2 minutes?

 
 
 
GregTx
Junior Participates
9.1  GregTx  replied to  Texan1211 @9    3 weeks ago

ADD fueled jealousy?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Ender  replied to  GregTx @9.1    3 weeks ago

Jealousy of someone praying? That is a laugh...

 
 
 
GregTx
Junior Participates
9.1.2  GregTx  replied to  Ender @9.1.1    3 weeks ago

Nah, being able to be still or quiet for a couple minutes….

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
9.2  Right Down the Center  replied to  Texan1211 @9    3 weeks ago

Why are folks so easily perturbed if someone prays?

Some people start every day with their panties in a bunch. It doesn't take much to twist them 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @9.2    3 weeks ago
Some people start every day with their panties in a bunch. It doesn't take much to twist them

Some of those very same folks think that freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.3  charger 383  replied to  Texan1211 @9    3 weeks ago

cause they are trying to make everybody do it

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.4  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @9    3 weeks ago
Or quietly stands or sits for 2 minutes

if only that was the case ...

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
10  Ender    3 weeks ago

Some people consider snake handling their worship.

I sat let them bring rattlesnakes to school to show their faith.

 
 
 
evilgenius
PhD Guide
10.1  evilgenius  replied to  Ender @10    3 weeks ago
Some people consider snake handling their worship.

Wait until someone in class brings up sex magic.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
10.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  evilgenius @10.1    3 weeks ago
Wait until someone in class brings up sex magic.

Christians do that every time they preach/teach about the supposed 'immaculate conception'...

Young virgin female, "Abracadabra!" and poof, she's pregnant... sex magic! A show like that would kill in Vegas...

It will also be a good excuse for all the young girls now living in red States where abortion is banned to tell their fundamentalist parents that got pregnant by "magic"...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10.1.1    3 weeks ago

Brilliant!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @10    3 weeks ago

I hope they tell us in advance....

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
10.3  devangelical  replied to  Ender @10    3 weeks ago

I say let them put those rattlesnakes in their boxers...

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Freshman Expert
11  magicschoolbusdropout    3 weeks ago

I find this to be Funny !

When one "Pushes" something before (starting about 2016) and finds it to be worthy, and another wants to "Push" something in the present (2022), and all of a sudden that pisses off the 2016'ers !

NOW,  catastrophe is upon us (Sky is falling ...... AGAIN ) !

LOL !

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
12  seeder  Hallux    3 weeks ago

Yikes 125+ comments and nary a deletion! I must be doing something wrong.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
12.1  charger 383  replied to  Hallux @12    3 weeks ago

Amazing!  Whatever is happing, I will be  silent for 2 minutes to keep this good behavior up.  

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
12.1.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  charger 383 @12.1    3 weeks ago

I spoke too soon ...

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
13  Jack_TX    3 weeks ago
“There is nothing I can do about that now; she has made her choices to be religious,” Robertson said. “And if she’s invited to pray at school, she’s going to. If I do hear about it, I would probably complain again — but for other students. It is too late for her.”

I wonder if Ms. Robertson would feel the same way about her daughter choosing a new gender.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1  Tessylo  replied to  Jack_TX @13    3 weeks ago

Bullshit deflection

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
14  mocowgirl    3 weeks ago

Pretty much only old people belong to or attend a church.  

Could this be one of the major reasons the church hierarchy is pushing to get access to children in public schools since the majority of their parents don't attend church?

American church attendance hits historic low: survey (nypost.com)

American church bells aren’t ringing so much as they are tolling, a new survey has found.

For the first time in 80 years, Gallup has found that less than half of US adults belong to a church, synagogue or mosque.

“Americans’ membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup’s eight-decade trend,”   Gallup reported   in a Monday post. “US church membership was 73% when Gallup first measured it in 1937 and remained near 70% for the next six decades, before beginning a steady decline around the turn of the 21st century.”

Membership numbers dropped to 50% by 2018, and last year slipped to 47%.

The decline in membership is due to not only a decline in religious Americans belonging to a church, but also an increase in Americans who do not follow a religion at all, according to Gallup.

“Over the past two decades, the percentage of Americans who do not identify with any religion has grown from 8% in 1998-2000 to 13% in 2008-2010 and 21% over the past three years,” the report added.

The trend is likely to continue, with Gallup noting that church membership is “strongly correlated with age.” While 66% of Americans born before 1946 belong to a church, only 58% of baby boomers do. Meanwhile, membership for Generation X is 50%, and just 36% for millennials. Available data on adult members of Generation Z appear to mirror millennial rates of religiosity.

The decline rates are similar but slightly steeper in Catholics than Protestants, but proportionately smaller among conservatives, Republicans, married adults, college graduates, Southerners and non-Hispanic black adults, all of whom maintain some of the highest rates of church membership.

“The US remains a religious nation, with more than 7 in 10 affiliating with some type of organized religion,” the report concluded in its “Implications” section. “While it is possible that part of the decline seen in 2020 was temporary and related to the coronavirus pandemic, continued decline in future decades seems inevitable, given the much lower levels of religiosity and church membership among younger versus older generations of adults.”
 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
14.1  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @14    3 weeks ago

more info on the Gallup poll at their website .

U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades (gallup.com)

The challenge is clear for churches, which depend on loyal and active members to keep them open and thriving. How do they find ways to convince some of the unaffiliated religious adults in society to make a commitment to a particular house of worship of their chosen faith? Roughly one in four U.S. adults are religious but not members of a church, synagogue or mosque.

Church leaders must also grapple with the generational slide away from religion. Millennials are much less likely than their elders to indicate a religious preference, and presumably the nearly one-third of millennials without a religious preference are unlikely to ever join a church. But the roughly two-thirds of millennials who do express a religious preference may one day be convinced to join, perhaps as more get established in their lives, including having families, which can be an impetus to becoming a part of a faith community.

Another obstacle churches face is Americans'   eroding confidence in the institution of organized religion . While organized religion is not the only U.S. institution suffering a loss of confidence, Americans have lost more confidence in it than in most other institutions.

In addition to the ongoing trends toward declining religiosity, Americans who are religious may also be changing their relationship to churches. They may not see a need to, or have a desire to, belong to a church and participate in a community of people with similar religious beliefs.

These trends are not just numbers, but play out in the reality that thousands of U.S. churches are closing each year. Religious Americans in the future will likely be faced with fewer options for places of worship, and likely less convenient ones, which could accelerate the decline in membership even more.
 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
15  charger 383    3 weeks ago

What will be the penalty for non compliance with this?

What will happen to a kid who laughs out loud doing this time?

What if he is laughing because the kid in the next seat farted? 

If you have ever had to deal with middle schoolers, you know this will cause  problems and high schoolers will be worse.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
15.1  Sparty On  replied to  charger 383 @15    3 weeks ago

I don’t recall it ever being a problem in any of the schools that I attended.   But then again, society in general tends to be more triggered these days.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
16  sandy-2021492    3 weeks ago
People of faith feel unsafe at school, Andrade said

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

Always with the persecution complex.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1  mocowgirl  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16    3 weeks ago
People of faith feel unsafe at school, Andrade said

Does this mean that they don't have faith that their supernatural being isn't powerful enough to protect them from harm?

Either they need more faith or a more powerful supernatural being or treatment for their paranoia that the world is out to get them. 

The world is indifferent to the survival of any species, including our own. 

Other people are rarely a threat unless they are paranoid or have other mental issues that make them prone to violence.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
16.1.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1    3 weeks ago
Does this mean that they don't have faith that their supernatural being isn't powerful enough to protect them from harm?

Ironic, eh?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.2  mocowgirl  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.1.1    3 weeks ago
Ironic, eh?

The Christians, in the US, have more faith in guns than their God, the Vatican used to have its own army before taking over governments and using those armies to force people to swear allegiance to the Pope.

Christianity is not a peaceful religion - never has been.

Christianity is a doomsday religion that believes everyone will eventually die, but then their souls will come to life again. Their souls will be judged, and their souls will then either spend eternity worshipping the God that judged them or spend eternity being tormented by the God that found them not worthy of spending eternity worshipping it.

Depending on the sect, during Armageddon, there will be huge amounts of suffering by the wicked before they die as God tortures them to make them worship it.  The Earth may or may not be destroyed.  The Earth may be destroyed and "renewed" as the eternal paradise.  Heaven may or may not be in this dimension.  Heaven may be a celestial body where the most faithful will have their very own planet for eternity.  People's souls may or may not be reunited with their body.

Just about everything in the Christian religion is ambiguous when it comes to how the world will end and how God will reward the faithful.

It is crystal clear that the Christian God despises just about everyone it ever created and only bothers to converse with a few men so they can tell everyone else how awful their Creator views its creations.

This is psychological warfare.  No one should be subjected to being told that this type thinking has any place in their life.

No one who believes in the Christian Armageddon should be commanding armies or have control of nuclear weapons.  They are on the same threat level to our lives as the Muslim zealots that we are supposed to eradicate in the Middle East.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.2    3 weeks ago

I dont think anyone can know the nature of God. After all, by definition God encompasses everything we do know or could ever know, and more. If God is real, it is beyond human understanding. 

Human religions are cultural expressions, and as such are neither inherently right or wrong. They just are. 

The "failings" of religion are less connected to doctrine than they are to the individual people who promote them. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.4  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.3    3 weeks ago
I dont think anyone can know the nature of God.

That is your belief and you are entitled to that belief.  Some of us want a clear, concise definition of God so we can understand if that God is even possible.  It is fairly easy for most of us to dismiss the probability of unicorns, leprechauns, and other myths.  

After all, by definition God encompasses everything we do know or could ever know, and more.

There is no way to test that theory.  None.

If God is real, it is beyond human understanding. 

Then any religion that claims to speak for a God would be illogical.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.4    3 weeks ago
That is your belief and you are entitled to that belief.  Some of us want a clear, concise definition of God so we can understand if that God is even possible. 

By definition God is a supernatural entity, which means God wholly or partly exists beyond nature. Nature is human beings physical experience of existence. 

No one will ever know God's true properties, if there is a God. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.6  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.5    3 weeks ago
No one will ever know God's true properties, if there is a God

Why should anyone care if there is a God or not?

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
16.1.7  afrayedknot  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.6    3 weeks ago

“Why should anyone care if there is a God or not?”

Tis a salve for those that desire definition, require guidance, seek assurance and ultimately salvation. All well and good as anything it takes to navigate their lives, but never assume those beliefs are to be put upon anyone else. 

For others, simply accepting that our time here is finite is enough. Knowing it is finite is actually liberating…for it allows one to appreciate every single moment, encounter and experience. It also allows one to share those moments, encounters, and experiences with every other soul in a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. Peace. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.8  mocowgirl  replied to  afrayedknot @16.1.7    3 weeks ago
Tis a salve for those that desire definition, require guidance, seek assurance and ultimately salvation.

This is why if people really studied world religions, they could probably find one that is far more mentally soothing to their existence than Christianity.

I like aspects of Buddhism - especially where the goal is work on self (instead of others) to achieve the ultimate peace and escape rebirth.

15 Afterlife Beliefs From Different Religions | TheRichest

What do you believe about life after death? Is it just a myth for you, or do you actually believe that the grave is not the end? Most people grow up in societies where their introduction into a religion happens as soon as they are born, and the chances of such people holding onto their faith and beliefs to the day they die are very high.

The social influence, coupled with today's media and peer pressure, play a huge role in shaping what we believe, as well as questioning what we believe. That all makes it very difficult for people to think about life after death objectively, as opposed to leaning on what they have known was true from as far back as they can remember.

People who only know what their religion says about life after death find what other people believe to be absurd and, to some extent, funny and impractical, but is there a way of proving which religion is right and which is wrong?

People who embrace science to the extent that they stop believing in religion and life after death, because they find no evidence and cannot find any form of measurement for it, tend to dismiss all religions as a whole.

However, should we expect that matters concerning life after death be measurable in a laboratory or in the field, like other things on this side of life? Wouldn't trying to conduct that experiment be like trying to measure the speed of the wind or the flammability of some materials when you are under water? It would not make sense.

Here are 15 religions from different parts of the world and what they believe about life after death. What do you believe?
 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
16.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.5    3 weeks ago
No one will ever know God's true properties, if there is a God. 

If there is a god ('whatever that word means') then we might know its properties.    Not sure I would preclude that.   We likely would not be able to fully understand this god, but we certainly could know more than what we know now (which, basically, is nothing if said god is a deity).

Now, if god were defined as: 'that which enabled the universe to form' then I think we could define god as essentially energy and as we proceed with science, we will naturally learn more about god's true properties.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
16.1.10  TᵢG  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.6    3 weeks ago

I would like to know.   Essentially, to me, the question of 'what is god' is entirely in line with scientific research.   Science is on the bleeding edge of knowledge regarding reality and the more we learn through science the better chance we have of answering that question (at least in part).    I am, of course, considering 'god' as the agent of creation (of the universe) but not presuming god to be sentient (not precluding it either).

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
16.1.11  afrayedknot  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.8    3 weeks ago

To meditate (through any form that brings one relaxation; art, music, literature, exercise, etc.) is essential if one is to survive in this world. Only when one is grounded and comfortable in their being is one properly equipped to engage with others in a mutually beneficial way. The ultimate goal really.

And that is not saying when you encounter hate, ignorance, or dishonesty that you look the other way…just the opposite, for those traits serve no purpose and only act as a disease, personally and societally. 

Name it, claim it, and embrace it…good and bad and without judgement (the truly difficult part) should be the mantra. Not sure what ‘religion’ that copies or adheres to, but as another agnostic, it works for me. Always enjoy your comments, friend. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.12  mocowgirl  replied to  afrayedknot @16.1.11    3 weeks ago
Name it, claim it, and embrace it…good and bad and without judgement, should be the mantra. Not sure what ‘religion’ that copies or adheres to, but as another agnostic, it works for me.

Probably, humanism might apply.

Always enjoy your comments, friend. 

Thank you, sincerely.   

Humanism - Wikipedia

Humanism   is a   philosophical   stance that emphasizes the individual and social potential and   agency   of   human beings . It considers human beings as the starting point for serious moral and philosophical inquiry.

The meaning of the term "humanism" has changed according to the successive intellectual movements that have identified with it. Generally, the term refers to a focus on human well-being and advocates for human freedom, autonomy, and progress. It views humanity as responsible for the promotion and development of individuals, espouses the equal and inherent dignity of all human beings, and emphasizes a concern for humans in relation to the world.

Starting in the 20th century, humanist movements have typically been   non-religious   and aligned with   secularism . Most frequently, humanism refers to a   nontheistic   view centered on human agency, and a reliance on science and reason rather than   revelation   from a   supernatural   source to understand the world. Humanists tend to advocate for human rights, free speech, progressive policies, and democracy. Those with a humanist worldview maintain religion is not a precondition of morality, and object to excessive religious entanglement with education and   the state . Humans, according to humanists, can shape their own values, and live good and meaningful lives

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.13  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.9    3 weeks ago
If there is a god ('whatever that word means') then we might know its properties. 

That depends on whether or not you believe God is "supernatural".  If it is supernatural , meaning outside this nature, then we cannot know the ultimate properties of God. It would be impossible for us to understand anything which is outside of our experience, or nature. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
16.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.13    3 weeks ago

Supernatural is a very important word to get correct in this context.   I usually go with Oxford so here goes:

supernatural ≡ (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

If we use that definition then what is supernatural today might not be supernatural tomorrow (science keeps expanding our understanding).   So we really do have a way to understand that which is supernatural.

If we instead use your definition:   supernatural ≡ outside this nature,  w e need to know what you mean by 'nature'.   If you mean 'laws of nature' then I assume you mean the laws that are in effect regardless of whether we have discovered them (yet).   So with that assumption, I agree with you.   If god is that which is beyond nature and we are confined by nature (can never escape its scope) then we would never know god unless god did something special to enable it.

Now, that established, nobody can say it is impossible for a supernatural god (by your definition of supernatural) to exist.   But if said god is indeed supernatural then by definition nobody really knows anything about this god.   So maybe it is best to go about our lives and do our best to keep learning and thinking and not concern ourselves (as in abide by) with human-conceived notions of that which we could not possibly understand.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.15  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @16.1.14    3 weeks ago

this is what wikipedia says

The  supernatural  is phenomena or entities that are not subject to the  laws of nature . It is derived from Medieval Latin  supernaturalis , from Latin  super-  (above, beyond, or outside of) +  natura  (nature).

... The philosophy of  naturalism  contends that nothing exists beyond the natural world, and as such approaches supernatural claims with  skepticism . [

Supernatural - Wikipedia
 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.16  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.13    3 weeks ago
That depends on whether or not you believe God is "supernatural". 

Supernatural is another term made up to explain things that were not understood by people in medieval times via Christian theology.

Supernatural - Wikipedia

The  supernatural  is phenomena or entities that are not subject to the  laws of nature . It is derived from Medieval Latin  supernaturalis , from Latin  super-  (above, beyond, or outside of) +  natura  (nature) [1]  Though the corollary term "nature", has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the medieval period [2]  and did not exist in the ancient world. [3]

The supernatural is featured in   folklore   and   religious   contexts, [4]   but can also feature as an explanation in more secular contexts, as in the cases of   superstitions   or belief in the   paranormal . [5]   The term is attributed to   non-physical entities , such as   angels ,   demons ,   gods , and   spirits . It also includes claimed abilities embodied in or provided by such beings, including   magic ,   telekinesis ,   levitation ,   precognition , and   extrasensory perception .

The philosophy of   naturalism   contends that nothing exists beyond the natural world, and as such approaches supernatural claims with   skepticism . [6]

Etymology and history of the concept [ edit ]

Occurring as both an   adjective   and a   noun , descendants of the modern English   compound   supernatural   enter the language from two sources: via   Middle French   ( supernaturel ) and directly from the Middle French's term's ancestor, post- Classical Latin   ( supernaturalis ). Post-classical Latin   supernaturalis   first occurs in the 6th century, composed of the   Latin   prefix   super-   and   nātūrālis   (see   nature ). The earliest known appearance of the word in the English language occurs in a Middle English translation of   Catherine of Siena 's   Dialogue   ( orcherd of Syon , around 1425;   Þei haue not þanne þe supernaturel lyȝt ne þe liȝt of kunnynge, bycause þei vndirstoden it not ). [7]

The semantic value of the term has shifted over the history of its use. Originally the term referred exclusively to Christian understandings of the world. For example, as an adjective, the term can mean "belonging to a realm or system that transcends nature, as that of divine, magical, or ghostly beings; attributed to or thought to reveal some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature; occult, paranormal" or "more than what is natural or ordinary; unnaturally or extraordinarily great; abnormal, extraordinary". Obsolete uses include "of, relating to, or dealing with metaphysics". As a noun, the term can mean "a supernatural being", with a particularly strong history of employment in relation to entities from the   mythologies of the indigenous peoples of the Americas . [7]

History of the concept [ edit ]

The ancient world had no word that resembled "supernatural". [3]   Dialogues from   Neoplatonic philosophy   in the third century AD contributed the development of the concept the supernatural via   Christian theology   in later centuries. [8]  
 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.17  JohnRussell  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.16    3 weeks ago

God has to exist , at least partially, outside of nature. Otherwise it would have to have created itself. 

I dont really care whether or not people believe in God, but the concept is far beyond the Bible or other earthly scriptures. Human religions are cultural expressions, and all religions have to worship the same God, for there could only be one God. 

An assertion that there are multiple gods misuses the term. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.18  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.17    3 weeks ago
God has to exist

Why?

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
16.1.19  afrayedknot  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.17    3 weeks ago

“and all religions have to worship the same God, for there could only be one God.”

I understand the concept, but perhaps a lowercase ‘god’ or another term altogether would have saved countless lives, unimaginable horrors, and never ending confrontations in defending one’s uppercase ‘God.’

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
16.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.15    3 weeks ago

That is pretty much how I presumed you were defining the word.    So I have already commented given that definition.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
16.1.21  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.17    3 weeks ago
God has to exist , at least partially, outside of nature. Otherwise it would have to have created itself. 

Why must a god exist?    If you define god as 'the agent of creation' then I would agree with you.   An agent of creation need not be sentient, it need only be that which was necessary for our universe to exist.   It is entirely devoid of properties other than the agency of our existence.

I dont really care whether or not people believe in God, but the concept is far beyond the Bible or other earthly scriptures. Human religions are cultural expressions, and all religions have to worship the same God, for there could only be one God. 

Not so sure that there can be only one god.   For example, is it possible that there are multiple universes?   Let's say it is.   Then would it not be possible for each universe to come into existence due to the agency of different gods?   It boils down as always to the definition of god.   Now if you were to say that all these gods are not really gods and the only real god is that which enabled the existence of this group of gods then I would see that as singular.   In essence, you would then be defining god as the supreme singular agent for all that exists.

( But of course, god also necessarily exists so we have that little issue. )

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
16.1.22  JohnRussell  replied to  mocowgirl @16.1.6    3 weeks ago

You have a grudge against Christianity which is simply pointless to engage with. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.1.23  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @16.1.22    3 weeks ago
You have a grudge against Christianity which is simply pointless to engage with.

I see no point in supporting an ancient belief system that is centered around making people slaves to men in a church hierarchy in the only existence we know of and give them promise that they will be paid handsomely after death by a being there is zero proof of existing.

I view the system as one elaborate con, a pyramid scheme that rewards the men at the top to the detriment of everyone else.

I don't have a grudge against Christianity.  I would feel the same way if the Ayatollah of Iran was doing the same thing.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
16.2  mocowgirl  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16    3 weeks ago
Always with the persecution complex.

In an article, I read today, even close to half adults are avoiding people with opposing political viewpoints in their workplace.

Workers are avoiding their colleagues because of conflicting political views—and employers are afraid to choose sides, HR expert says (msn.com)

In multiple surveys of hundreds of U.S. workers in 2020,  Gartner  HR found that 44% of Americans have actively avoided coworkers because of their political views.

Describing the current social climate as “a period of extreme cultural and political conflict,” Gartner said political differences among employees had partially been brought on by companies who told their workers to bring their whole selves to work.

“That’s actually created conflict,” Brian Kropp, distinguished VP of research at Gartner, told   Fortune .

He added that Gartner’s research showed three-quarters of workers expected their employer to get involved in political debates.

Picking a side

When it came to workers wanting their employers to speak out on potentially contentious issues, one-third generally wanted their company to be on one side, one-third wanted them on the other side, and the final third were indifferent to their employer’s political opinions.
 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
16.3  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16    3 weeks ago
Always with the persecution complex.

Is alive and well in the anti religion crowd.    The whole reason for kerfuffles like this.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
16.3.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sparty On @16.3    3 weeks ago

Sure, sure.  Those in the  minority  are always the persecutors.

You might as well just say "I know you are, but what am I?"

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
16.3.2  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16.3.1    3 weeks ago

If the shoe fits, put that sucker on

And persecution?    Lol!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
16.4  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @16    2 weeks ago

in my elementary school, the preacher's kid would periodically feel the need to proselytize on the playground. it was always real funny when the catholic kids would remove his slacks and toss them into the tree branches where the janitor couldn't easily retrieve them. everyone in the classrooms on the playground side watched the extrication process thru the windows after recess while he sat in the principal's office in his tighty whiteys. he was obviously a slow learner, as this schoolyard melodrama played out a least a half dozen times during 5th-6th grade. it only took him one time to learn to leave his religion at home in jr. high after he got his ass kicked at the fairgrounds by somebody that didn't like it being implied that their religious beliefs were inferior and incorrect. a couple years later, his preacher dad got caught up in a church based wife swapping scandal that rocked the small farming community and the family pulled up stakes and disappeared.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
PhD Guide
16.4.1  Drakkonis  replied to  devangelical @16.4    2 weeks ago

You know, it's absolutely disgusting how you and all the rest in this place ridicule and denigrate people of faith in here, all the while not giving a second's thought to the proselytizing going on in our schools by the LGBTQ and woke crowd. It's hundreds of times worse than anything people of faith are doing. You people are completely blind to the absolute fact that everything you accuse people of faith of, you yourselves do, only more so. But, of course, it isn't confined to schools, is it? You people proselytize everywhere. You all do whatever you can to impose your beliefs on everyone else. People of faith are a spilled glass of water compared to the catastrophic flood of your hypocrisy. 

You guys love to talk about the Crusades, witch trials, inquisitions and blame most wars on religion and never ever, not once, consider that what you people do is exactly what you religiously fight against. "But," you say, "our cause is just and righteous! That gives us the right to behave in the way we accuse our enemies are doing! That's the [difference!"deleted]

You guys need to wake the hell up. Take a good, honest look at yourselves. Everyone wants to believe they're good people but the method they use to determine whether or not they are is to compare themselves to someone else. That's an incredibly stupid standard. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.2  Tessylo  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago

You guys take the fucking cake.

Always the victims here.

help.gif

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
16.4.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago
u know, it's absolutely disgusting how you and all the rest in this place ridicule and denigrate people of faith in here, all the while not giving a second's thought to the proselytizing

It would require self awareness. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.4  Tessylo  replied to  Sean Treacy @16.4.3    2 weeks ago

[deleted

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
16.4.5  arkpdx  replied to  Tessylo @16.4.4    2 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
16.4.6  pat wilson  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago
You people proselytize everywhere. You all do whatever you can to impose your beliefs on everyone else. 

Who, what and where are you talking about ????

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
16.4.7  sandy-2021492  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago

What proselytizing, Drakk?

Are the schools trying to recruit kids to be LGBT?

Of course they're not.

"Don't bully your classmates for being gay" is not proselytizing.  It's telling children not to be bigots.  I'm not sure why that's such a problem for some people.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.8  Tessylo  replied to  pat wilson @16.4.6    2 weeks ago

He doesn't know.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
16.4.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago

Hey! If you don't like the liberal proselytizing...IGNORE IT!

That's what I get told

Was your rant based on the dumb preacher's kid who couldn't learn to keep his stupid mouth shut? Or that it was the Catholic kids who tortured him? Personally, I think it's funny

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.10  Tessylo  replied to  arkpdx @16.4.5    2 weeks ago

I see who your friends and who voted that up.

With friends like that who needs enemas?

All you have are ignorant insults.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.11  Tessylo  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago

Seems like you need to wake the hell up and take a good look at yourself.

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
16.4.12  arkpdx  replied to  Tessylo @16.4.10    2 weeks ago
With friends like that who needs enemas? All you have are ignorant insults.  

 [Deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
16.4.13  Tessylo  replied to  arkpdx @16.4.12    2 weeks ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
16.4.14  Jack_TX  replied to  Drakkonis @16.4.1    2 weeks ago
You guys need to wake the hell up. Take a good, honest look at yourselves.

Why would they want to do that?

Introspection and awareness are complete buzzkills when they're on a moral superiority rampage.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
17  charger 383    3 weeks ago

What if some students wanted to face east or kneel on rugs during this time?

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
17.1  afrayedknot  replied to  charger 383 @17    3 weeks ago

…or even, some god forbid, one dare to giggle during the exercise? 

 
 
 
arkpdx
PhD Participates
17.2  arkpdx  replied to  charger 383 @17    2 weeks ago

What if they do? No big deal except for you it seems. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
18  seeder  Hallux    3 weeks ago

And the rational for locking over 125 comments on my seed is what? Humbuggery?

 
 
 
GregTx
Junior Participates
18.1  GregTx  replied to  Hallux @18    3 weeks ago

Somebody was mean? 

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
18.1.1  seeder  Hallux  replied to  GregTx @18.1    3 weeks ago

Or thin skinned.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
18.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Hallux @18    3 weeks ago

I am not a moderator, but that was a pretty pointless section of the seed. Lot of "no values". 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
18.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Hallux @18    3 weeks ago
And the rational for locking over 125 comments on my seed is what? Humbuggery?

I haven't been here all that much for months, but I don't understand at all why those comments were locked.

What rules on this site were violated and are all seeds moderated so harshly these days?

I am very puzzled.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.1  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @18.3    3 weeks ago
I haven't been here all that much for months, but I don't understand at all why those comments were locked.

You will in time.

What rules on this site were violated and are all seeds moderated so harshly these days?

The tickets issued will have some explanation, and no, not all seeds are moderated like this one has been.

I am very puzzled.

Join the crowd.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
18.3.2  pat wilson  replied to  mocowgirl @18.3    3 weeks ago

I'm here pretty often and I'm puzzled too. And not to get to Meta here but don't ever think you ("you" in general) have friends here 'cause you don't. People you'd least expect will turn on you in a hot minute.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
18.3.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.1    3 weeks ago
You will in time.

If so, I am guessing there will be a meta fest????

The tickets issued will have some explanation, and no, not all seeds are moderated like this one has been.

It is a very contentious subject, but I've seen far worse in other discussions where a few comments were censored, but not comments without violations.

Join the crowd.

Texan, surely you jest. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
18.3.4  mocowgirl  replied to  pat wilson @18.3.2    3 weeks ago
I'm here pretty often and I'm puzzled too.

This is beginning to feel like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone.

And not to get to Meta here but don't ever think you ("you" in general) have friends here 'cause you don't. People you'd least expect will turn on you in a hot minute.

Thank you for the warning.  I know exactly what you're speaking of.  I'm still reeling from all of the verbal abuse I received from my online "friends" when I declared I wouldn't support Clinton if I were held at gunpoint.   This is why I usually only spar with people who oppose my position on anything.  If they have shown the capacity for compassion/empathy then it can be an interesting debate.  If they do not show the capacity for compassion/empathy, then I don't feel any pleasure with interacting with them and usually avoid it unless it is to advice a discussion on the talking points that I want to discuss.    

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
18.3.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.1    3 weeks ago

Thats hilarious, since your endlessly inane and pointless comments were very likely a main reason the thread was locked. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
18.3.6  1stwarrior  replied to  pat wilson @18.3.2    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
18.3.7  JBB  replied to  pat wilson @18.3.2    3 weeks ago

You got that right! 

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
18.3.8  seeder  Hallux  replied to  pat wilson @18.3.2    3 weeks ago

Been there and more than once over at the old NV.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.9  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @18.3.3    3 weeks ago
If so, I am guessing there will be a meta fest????

No, that isn't allowed.

It is a very contentious subject, but I've seen far worse in other discussions where a few comments were censored, but not comments without violations.

Not all articles are moderated in the same way.

Texan, surely you jest. 

Nope!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.10  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @18.3.5    3 weeks ago
Thats hilarious, since your endlessly inane and pointless comments were very likely a main reason the thread was locked. 

Please stop talking out of your ass about more shit you don't have a fucking clue about,

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
18.3.11  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.10    3 weeks ago

“Please stop talking out of your ass about more shit you don't have a fucking clue about.”

Folks…this coming from an apologist. All you need to ‘no’. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.12  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.11    3 weeks ago
Folks…this coming from an apologist. All you need to ‘no’. 

You may fuck off now, too. I am sure you and someone else have something to discuss.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
18.3.13  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.12    3 weeks ago

“You may fuck off now…”

Chicken shittery. Eek. Bleak. Weak. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.14  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.13    3 weeks ago

I must play to the audience my remark is intended for whether they can understand it or not.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
18.3.15  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.14    3 weeks ago

“I must…”

And thus the conundrum, tex…you invariably must. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
18.3.16  Tessylo  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.15    3 weeks ago

They say ignorance is bliss . . . . 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.17  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.15    3 weeks ago
And thus the conundrum, tex…you invariably must. 

Here I was, not talking to you, and yet somehow, you HAD to throw your two cents worth of shit in.

As before, you may fuck off now.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
18.3.18  afrayedknot  replied to  Texan1211 @18.3.17    3 weeks ago

“…you HAD to throw your two cents worth of shit in.”

Well, given our dire inflation woes, it is now worth at least two bits. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.19  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.18    3 weeks ago
Well, given our dire inflation woes, it is now worth at least two bits. 

Your hero did that--but you needn't worry your head about it, Joe told you LAST year inflation was just temporary.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
18.3.20  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @18.3.11    3 weeks ago
this coming from an apologist.

Doesn't appear you even know what an apologist IS.

Try again?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
18.3.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @18.3.16    3 weeks ago

It really is especially when you can't read some people's conments

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
20  Revillug    3 weeks ago

I suppose they can make us pray but they can't control what we are praying for.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.1  Sparty On  replied to  Revillug @20    3 weeks ago

 No one is “making” anyone pray that I can see or have ever seen.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2  mocowgirl  replied to  Revillug @20    3 weeks ago
I suppose they can make us pray but they can't control what we are praying for.

I was wondering what it would be like if the two-minute timeout was announced with "And Now, A Word from our Sponsor".  So I went to youtube to find a clip.

I may (or may not) have found the perfect intro to put students in the perfect frame of mind to pray, meditate, or consider the aspects of what is right and wrong.  The clip only had 172 likes so it doesn't seem to have gained a large following, but maybe promoting it like a religion it may gain a more widespread following and become an accepted mantra for US society. 

If it becomes popular, it should boost the profits of the people who own stock in Jif since we will all know the penalty if we are not choosy enough.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.1  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2    3 weeks ago

This might be a better inspiration for reflection on things that matter in the US since it combines consumerism with US patriotism.  

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
20.2.2  Revillug  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.1    3 weeks ago

Has a bit of a Squid Game feel to it.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Revillug @20.2.2    3 weeks ago
Has a bit of a Squid Game feel to it.

I have seen references to Squid Game, but that is all I know about it.  

I would have probably never found either of these two videos if I had not been old enough to remember when commercials were not announced with "And now a word from our sponsor".

I thought the first one was just an innocent ad for Jif peanut butter.  Initially, I was shocked and wondered if I had found a potential mass shooter.  Then I was amused by remembering that the most effective advertising that politicians and religions use is ads with shock value.  

I realized that I accidentally stumbled onto one of the ways that indoctrination into the Christian religion is done.

Generally, first a person is told that they are special and loved.  Then, secondly, they are told they are evil and most atone to Yahweh for being evil because they had murdered his son, Yeshua.  

There are variations on how people are indoctrinated, but usually, it begins with the carrot, that progresses to the stick very quickly and stays there until the person dies.  Yahweh constantly needs money according to his spokesmen and the sinners are obligated to supply it.... or else.

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
20.2.4  Revillug  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.3    3 weeks ago
it begins with the carrot, that progresses to the stick very quickly and stays there until the person dies.

And in that time a person is leaned on for an awful lot of money.

My mother-in-law was on a fixed income but her tithings remained a financial burden for her until the day she died.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.5  mocowgirl  replied to  Revillug @20.2.4    3 weeks ago
And in that time a person is leaned on for an awful lot of money.

I don't understand why they don't question a god's need for money to do its "will".

Why does a god that created everything need money to do anything?

My mother-in-law was on a fixed income but her tithings remained a financial burden for her until the day she died.

That is so disgusting.  

I remember watching the 700 Club in the 80s.  The message was that no matter how poor a person was, they should send at least $15 a month to the 700 Club and Yahweh would reward them.

This is why I view religion as a pyramid scheme when I look at the men at the top living in wealth and splendor off of the people they have conned.

I was just watching some inane stuff on youtube and stumbled onto an interview with Frank Abagnale.  It was a reminder of how gullible people were and still are.  We want to believe in the best of people.  That is why we are so easily conned.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
20.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.5    3 weeks ago
Why does a god that created everything need money to do anything?

I think its safe to say that God doesnt need money.  You are confusing God with entirely fallible human beings.  Why doesnt God stop the humans?  I suppose it is a free will thing. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.7  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @20.2.6    3 weeks ago
I think its safe to say that God doesnt need money. 

I think most people, outside of the gullible, know that it is the con men who need the money. 

You are confusing God with entirely fallible human beings.

An an ignostic, the only confusion I have is when people can't accurately explain their belief system well enough that it can be verified and understood enough to be deemed remotely credible.  

When it comes to the Christian religion, we know there never was an Adam and Eve.  And that is just the beginning of all of the inaccuracies in the Bible.  To make the creation story credible in today's world, the Bible will have to go through a serious re-write.  

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
20.2.8  Revillug  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.5    3 weeks ago

What a great video link. I might share that with people I know.

I have a complicated view of religion. There are churches near me, both Catholic and Protestant, that are dedicated outposts of social service and social justice.

I'm an atheist but I could torture a theology out of my upbringing that would rationalize Jesus as the word of God (whoever she is) revealed to us in its most perfect form.

If I felt a greater need for community I might do that.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.9  mocowgirl  replied to  Revillug @20.2.8    3 weeks ago
I'm an atheist but I could torture a theology out of my upbringing that would rationalize Jesus as the word of God (whoever she is) revealed to us in its most perfect form.

Man created gods, not vice versa.  Looking at the characteristics attributed to a god says a lot about the personalities of the men who created and worshipped it.

If I felt a greater need for community I might do that.

If I was a joiner, I would prefer to join a gardening club, a book club or maybe a coven.

The Abrahamic religions have a history of bloodshed and division.  

I often wonder how many people have ever actually read the words of the man they claim was born to bring peace to the world.

How does a person twist these words to claim that Yeshua's purpose was to bring peace?

This may be one of the reasons that Yeshua's followers feel justified in pushing their belief systems on others.  Men, at this time in the US, have the right to keep these fanatics out of their lives.  Women are losing ground.  And now schoolchildren are next to have their rights to a religion free education stripped away from them.

The only way that Christianity is not divisive is when one sect has enough power in a country to ban knowledge and observance of all of the other sects and all other religions.  

Christians are always claiming everyone has free will, but they do their damnest to make sure that no one gets to use it.

Luke 12:51 Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. (biblehub.com)

Not Peace, But Division
50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!  51 Do you think   that   I have come   to bring   peace   to   the   earth?   No,   I tell   you,   but   division.   52 From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.…

Cross References
Matthew 10:34
Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:52
From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
Treasury of Scripture

Suppose you that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, No; but rather division:

Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Zechariah 11:7,8,10,11,14
And I will feed the flock of slaughter,   even   you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock…

Matthew 10:34-36
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword…

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.2.10  Sparty On  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.9    2 weeks ago

I just love it when non believers cherry-pick the words of the books they say don’t believe in, of the religions they don’t believe in, to rationalize the reasons of their own non belief.

Funny!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.11  mocowgirl  replied to  Sparty On @20.2.10    2 weeks ago
Funny!

Do you also find it funny that the majority of atheists in the US know the Bible better than most people claiming to be Christians?

The main reason that I know what is in the Bible is because I was a Christian for over 50 years of my life.

The main reason that I became an atheist is because I could not logically reconcile all of the inaccuracies in the Bible with reality.  

When I look at Yahweh objectively, he is a vain, self-obsessed, violent god that initially required the blood sacrifice of his subjects to please him.   

I am not the one who is cherry-picking the Bible. I wonder how many people would be a member of the Christian religion if they knew its god used to demand child sacrifice?

Polytheism and Human Sacrifice in Early Israelite Religion | HuffPost Religion

Tell us more about this evolution from tribal deity to monotheism.

Well as Chris Rollston argues, there are various stages in Israel's progression from polytheism to monotheism. Yahweh begins as a junior member of the divine pantheon. This is the view during the tribal confederation period of Israel's history. After Israel became a monarchy, Yahweh gets a promotion to head of the pantheon, taking his father Elyon's place. (This parallels similar ideas in Babylonian literature, in which Marduk's ascendancy to king of the gods mirrors the rise of the Babylonian empire.)

Over time, Yahweh and Elyon are conflated, they sort of merge into one god. At this stage Yahweh starts to be seen as creator-god. But in this period, Israel still believes in other gods; it's just that they're not supposed to worship other gods because they owed their allegiance to Yahweh, their patron deity. Of course, Yahweh was believed to have had a wife, Asherah, and it is clear that Israelites worshiped her as Yahweh's consort.

This seems to have been acceptable orthodoxy until the seventh century BCE or so. At that point, prophets like Jeremiah began to polemicize other gods, calling into doubt their very existence. This idea that Yahweh alone is God is solidified during the Babylonian exile in the sixth century for a complex set of reasons. This is when official Israelite religion finally became monotheistic.

And early on, the chosen people practiced human sacrifice? Let's hear it. What's your evidence?

Well the evidence is complex, and I lay much of it out in my book. But the short version is that human sacrifice was a rare but widespread practice in ancient Near Eastern religion, and there is evidence that until about the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, it was an acceptable part of Israelite and Judean religion as well. There's the story of the near-sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham. It is popularly believed that because an angel prevented Abraham from killing his son at the last moment, the story constitutes a condemnation of child sacrifice. But that's not the case. Isaac is spared not because human sacrifice is seen to be immoral, but because Isaac was the child of promise and needed to survive. In reality, the account depends upon the logic of human sacrifice, because Abraham is praised for his willingness to kill his own son to appease Yahweh.

There is evidence that ancient Israelites believed that human sacrifices could be offered to Yahweh in exchange for victory in battle against their enemies. The Israelite warrior Jephthah sacrificed his virgin daughter to Yahweh in fulfillment of a vow he made in order to secure Yahweh's help in battle. The same ideology can be seen in some early accounts of the Canaanite conquest, in which Yahweh gives Israelites victory against Canaanite armies, and the Israelites in turn slaughter all of the women and children in payment to Yahweh for his aid.

There's also evidence that Yahweh commanded human sacrifice in the law of Moses. Later, when the practice of human sacrifice fell into disrepute among elite circles, the prophet Ezekiel confirms that Yahweh commanded human sacrifice, but interprets that command as a form of punishment for Israel's disobedience. Ezekiel needed a way to deal with that tradition found in Exodus 22, and did so by claiming that Yahweh ordered them to kill their firstborn sons as a way of getting back at them for their lack of faith in him. Obviously Ezekiel's solution to the problem was problematic in itself, but at least we can thank him for helping to put an end to the institution of child sacrifice in Israelite religion.

I've heard evangelicals explain that the reason God prescribed scorched earth policies in the Old Testament was because the surrounding nations were so evil -- that they practiced child sacrifice. (God sent warnings; they didn't heed them.) Is this just a desperate attempt to justify the unconscionable?

Yeah, well that justification is in the Bible itself, in texts that were written or edited   after   the institution of child sacrifice fell into disrepute. But the reality is that Israelites practiced child sacrifice too. As I argue in chapter 6 of my book, the real motivations for the conquests were much more nefarious. It had more to do with land and the consolidation of political power than anything else.

Wouldn't most Christians and Jews find this shocking?

Of course, and rightly so. It is shocking. I was shocked. But what I find even more shocking is the fact that some believers go to such great lengths to try to defend these genocides and moral atrocities. The same people who preach against the evils of abortion in the name of absolute, objective morality throw their absolute, objective morality out the window in order to defend the child-murders of an ancient tribe who thought they were doing the will of God. That's what's most shocking to me.

 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
20.2.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.11    2 weeks ago
Do you also find it funny that the majority of atheists in the US know the Bible better than most people claiming to be Christians?

How is that knowable?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
20.2.13  mocowgirl  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @20.2.12    2 weeks ago
How is that knowable?

Surveys give a pretty good indication.

It mirrors my personal experience being raised and still living in the Bible Belt.  

Also other things to take into consideration.  What is the adult literacy rate in the US and the most religious countries compared to countries that are less religious or non-religious?

How many versions/translations of the Bible are in existence?  How many people have read any of them?  How many people can read any of them?

For too many people, their religion is based on a game of telephone.  The people, who are able and really care about finding the one and only, truer than true religion, are more likely to research to make sure they are not making the wrong choice of god or religion since they have been taught their life depends on it.  

Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious : The Two-Way : NPR

The Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released   a survey on religious knowledge   today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons.

That's overall, but when you get into specific religions it does show a startling lack of basic knowledge by practitioners. From the report:

More than four-in-ten Catholics in the United States (45%) do not know that their church teaches that the bread and wine used in Communion do not merely symbolize but actually become the body and blood of Christ. About half of Protestants (53%) cannot correctly identify Martin Luther as the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation, which made their religion a separate branch of Christianity. Roughly four-in-ten Jews (43%) do not recognize that Maimonides, one of the most venerated rabbis in history, was Jewish.

The study also showed that Americans have a fairly poor understanding of religions other than their own. Only about half of the people surveyed know that Martin Luther inspired the Reformation, the Dalai Lama is Buddhist, and Joseph Smith was a Mormon. Why are Atheists and Agnostics better informed?   The   Los Angeles Times   quotes   one of the researchers who has a theory:

American atheists and agnostics tend to be people who grew up in a religious tradition and consciously gave it up, often after a great deal of reflection and study, said Alan Cooperman,   associate director for research at the Pew Forum.

"These are people who thought a lot about religion," he said. "They're not indifferent. They care about it."

Also interesting is that Black Protestants and Latino Catholics scored at the bottom of the survey.
 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2.14  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @20.2.10    2 weeks ago
I just love it when non believers cherry-pick the words of the books they say don’t believe in, of the religions they don’t believe in, to rationalize the reasons of their own non belief.

Why do you question a non-believer's non-belief in the Bible?   You doubt that there are people who are not persuaded to believe the Bible is the inspired word of the grandest possible entity, the arbiter of truth and objective morality, the creator of everything who is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent ... yet condones the owning of people as property and myriad atrocities?    You think it odd that one is dissuaded from believing the Bible is truth when it defines an omniscient entity which can be surprised or disappointed or change its mind?

Nobody needs to rationalize not being persuaded to believe something.   Do you need to rationalize your lack of belief in Zeus or Santa Claus or little green Martians?  It is very much the opposite;  one would need to rationalize belief in extraordinary claims that are not supported by any evidence.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
20.2.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  mocowgirl @20.2.13    2 weeks ago

Thanks for the link to the Pew study. 

On questions about Christianity – including a battery of questions about the Bible – Mormons (7.9 out of 12 right on average) and white evangelical Protestants (7.3 correct on average) show the highest levels of knowledge.
 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.2.16  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @20.2.12    2 weeks ago
Do you also find it funny that the majority of atheists in the US know the Bible better than most people claiming to be Christians?

First of all I doubt that is true.    Feel free to back that statement up though with an unbiased source.

I don’t doubt that many Atheists are good at cherry-picking the Bible for passages that support their faithless position.    They are also good at leaving out the positive passages.

The Bible isn’t a technical manual.    Some of it has to be taken on faith.    One can’t expect folks that have lost their faith for one reason or another or those who never had faith to be capable of such a thing.    And that’s okay in my book.    I’ve never been much of evangelizer, more a live and let live guy.

In my experience, especially here, I see atheist’s bagging on people of faith A LOT more than the other way around.    Lots of angry Atheists out there.    Lots of them.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2.17  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @20.2.16    2 weeks ago
 Feel free to back that statement up though with an unbiased source.

See @20.2.13

They are also good at leaving out the positive passages.

Who claims that the Bible does not have good parts like the Sermon on the Mount?    The criticism of the Bible is regarding its claim of divinity, not that the collection of books have no value.

The Bible isn’t a technical manual.    Some of it has to be taken on faith.  

Of course, if one does not have supporting evidence to believe something, one necessarily must believe on faith.   The only way one can believe, for example, that there truly are exolife entities inhabiting our planet and slowly taking over human minds is by faith since there is no supporting evidence for the belief.   The criticism is indeed regarding believing the Bible divine based on faith (and in spite of the substantial evidence to the contrary ... in the form of biblical contradictions such as an omniscient entity that can be surprise or the arbiter of objective morality condoning the owning of a human being as property).

Lots of angry Atheists out there.  

I suspect you think that logical criticism must be driven by anger.   When you criticism Biden, is it because you are angry with him?    When you criticize a flawed bridge design, is that a result of anger?   

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.2.18  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @20.2.14    2 weeks ago
Why do you question a non-believer's non-belief in the Bible? 

I don’t and never said I did.    Once again my comment stands on it’s own and doesn’t need to be put through your rationalization generator.....

I’m not going to have another debate with you about definitions of the word faith.

It’s a waste of time.    I won’t agree with you and you won’t accept a valid definition faith.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2.19  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @20.2.18    2 weeks ago
I don’t and never said I did.

Is this you?:  

Sparty @20.2.10I just love it when non believers cherry-pick the words of the books they say don’t believe in, of the religions they don’t believe in, to rationalize the reasons of their own non belief.

You explicitly used the language:   "they say don't believe in" vs "they don't believe in".   Surely you understand the former to be questioning the non-belief vs the latter acknowledging the non-belief.    I will assume you simply misspoke.

Once again my comment stands on it’s own ...

Yeah, I know the, in your words, 'schtick' you use:

  • Make a claim
  • Read a rebuttal
  • Deny what you wrote
  • Declare that your comment stands
  • Include some snark
  • Leave nothing but meta in the comment

All you had to do was state that you did not mean to imply that atheists do believe in the Bible.   I would have taken you at your word.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.2.20  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @20.2.17    2 weeks ago
When you criticize a flawed bridge design, is that a result of anger?   

Lol .... there you go again.    Trying to equate a technical decisions with an emotional one.     I’ll say this one more time because I’ve already said it to you numerous times.

Engineering and design is not an emotional field.    We don’t deal in faith.     We deal in technical facts as they are known to be at the time.     No “faith” involved at all.

One’s belief system is not usually technical but more emotional.    That is for everyone but Spock.

So no, anger doesn’t come into play in design.     It only comes into play when the design is done and if it fails.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
20.2.21  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @20.2.19    2 weeks ago
All you had to do was state that you did not mean to imply that atheists do believe in the Bible.

Your logic and reading comprehension fails you again.    I didn’t imply that.    That’s simply just the way you took it.

And that my friend is your problem not mine.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
20.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @20.2.20