The reasons that California really is a "Clusterfuck."
Nobody can deny that California is a one-party state. How is got that way is both perverse and controversial. I'll leave that for another day.
I will only list, once again, the results of democrat rule in California.
California has the highest gas prices in the United States.
California has the highest cost of electricity in the country.
California has the highest number of illegal aliens in the nation.
California had a $70 Billion deficit.
California has one third of all the nation's welfare recipients.
21% of the state's population lives below the "poverty level."
It has the highest property assessments in the nation.
California education is ranked 23rd nationwide.
Homeless encampments can be found in the state's large cities.
40% of the state population is on Medical.
50% of all births are paid for by the state.
And what of the current Governor?
He is busy pursuing a $20 Billion high speed rail boondoggle with not a foot of rail laid down. There are Solar plants that have blown up, and desert Solar plants that had to be demolished. There has been a massive exodus of middle-class taxpayers, while government dependency has increased. Reservoirs that should have been maintained were neglected. Forests that needed upkeep were neglected. All the Governor can seem to talk about is Donald Trump. His hands have been on every disaster that has plagued the state during his 6-year tenure and btw he had little problem getting reelected. That leads back to voting, which as I said I'll leave for another day.
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California's decline wasn't an accident.
It was because of ideological choices.
What decline?
The imaginary decline.
I don't think blue collar or white collar workers that left Cali think it was imaginary....
The fleeing middle class sure screams "the decline is imaginary," doesn't it?
It must the the weather that's causing California to lose Americans to other states for the first time in time in its history.
Everyone I know who left, left because they were retiring and sold there California properties for extremely favorable profits and bought nicer, often much larger properties in PA, NJ or TX resulting in no mortgage.
No one denies that that are disaffected people everywhere who move around for one reason or another in every state.
My Trumper kids abandoned NC for SC over tax issues. It's real, even red states have disaffected people.
I never met anyone that moved out of CA because it was a blue state but I imagine the possibility is real.
Is California's population growing or shrinking?
[from link above, bolding mine]
"It declined by 9,500 between 2024 and 2025, one of 5 states to lose population.
Changes in population reflect birth and death rates, immigration patterns, regional shifts, and even the overall health of the economy. California’s 0.02% annual decrease was primarily driven by people moving to other states.
In the decade between 2015 and 2025, California’s population grew by 1%."
Yeah, that 0.02% decrease between '24 and '25 was devastating. California's population is still projected to grow in the future.
You love you some ridiculous talking points, don't you?
Well, that 9,500 is a huge number to some of these empty States when looked at as a percentage of their populations. Only in California does it represent 0.02% but if one of their States lost 9,500 people it would be seen as a veritable mass migration with entire cities becoming ghost towns.
You love you some ridiculous talking points, don't you?
I love when facts and logic bounce off people.
California is one of five, just five, states that had declining population. People vote with their feet. Dynamic, well governed states attract Americans. Poorly managed sclerotic states struggles to keep residents and devolve to where they are left with the with the really rich and the really poor. The middle simply leaves.
So a quarter more million Americans voted with their feet to leave a state with the best weather In the country. The state that Americans flocked to since its founding that was always the largest receiver of inter state migration now loses Americans to the same states their ancestors fled to move to California in the first place.
In the 20th century, California had the biggest net migration rate of American states. In the 21st, almost 4 million Americans have fled, second only to New York
Imagine claiming that isn’t relevant to the question of whether California is declining. It’s like arguing whether inflation isn’t relevant to determining whether the cost of living is rising,
Two of the most expensive places in the country to live should show negative migration. It's natural to leave and the people leaving relieve the housing crunch and keep prices from rising even further.
They move to states like ID and UT (ugh), or no income tax states like TX or FL or SC where the housing is cheap. Whether they can tolerate the weather issues and electric prices remains to be seen. They may move again.
Another argument filled with facts but no context. The perfect example of starting out with a biased position and trying to justify it.
So what if we turned the question around?
You are making my argument for me. The housing shortage is, of course, a function of policy and governance. Competent states make it possible to build housing affordably.
I also appreciate the window into the contempt progressives have for their fellow Americans. Progressive policies haved forced 4 million Americans, their fellow citizens of California, to leave the state and the response is "good. Just like we wanted!"
I don't even have to say it. You just admit it.
The perfect example of starting out with a biased position and trying to justify it.
That's the perfect example of irony. You are floundering so badly you are trying to claim forcing millions of their fellow citizens to leave the state where they live is good thing. Simply amazing.
And of course, the policy behind making California too expensive for the middle class isn't really about total population. It's the Curly effect in operation. Drive out millions of Americans and then replace them with migrants who will blindly support the Democratic party in return for welfare. So the total population remains about the same,. while that pesky middle class of Americans who might vote independently is pushed out.
Geez you are actually convinced of your own pretzel logic aren't you?
No one forces people to leave CA any more than they force them to move there. there is no conspiracy.
The Curley effect holds that if the wealth can be redistributed like Boston a hundred years ago then electoral security could be maintained for Mayor Brown.for decades but it led to no growth and stagnation.
Purveyors of the Curly effect say it has led to stagnation and decline in many industrial cities like Detroit, Chicago but there are too many moving parts for such an over simplified theory to hold much water. Wars starting and ending, robotics, Foreign car competition, emission standards, burning rivers.
Governance is messy but growth is measurable.
Remind us of your doom and gloom predictions when CA, the fourth largest economy in the world is stagnant and falling in stature not growing by 5% a year.
Of one thing that is clear to all, if CA had been a GOP state for the last 20 or 30 years, none of this would be of such overstated importance to you.
It's just another partisan bitch fest by people who have nothing to do with CA.
Let me try this again.
Your "hypothesis" is that after so many years of rule by Democrats the negative migration proves they are incompetent in governance.
From 1975 to 2000 under GOP guidance the outflow was close to 2.5% before Inflow began increasing.
But the first year that scale was tipped to the negative was after 7 years of Republican rule under Arnold Schwartzenegger,
so after his last year and 15 years of different Democrats the net migration loss was about 200,000 a year in a state of 38 plus million.
that's something ridiculous like 00.00512%
BFD
Oh and 2024 had a net migration of plus 121,000 and 2025 loss of 89,000.
Your theory holds no water, it's just partisan postulating or jealousy about CA's economic success.
God forbid they should duplicate that across the whole country.
Ain't that the truth.
Where in the world are you getting your data from? Fox News?
I did my own searches for every point you made above, and almost every one of them is wrong or a red herring. I mean, finding this stuff out isn't that hard.
It's actually Hawaii at the moment. It looks like it goes back and forth, though.
Also Hawaii.
Red herring. California does have the highest, but the red state of Texas isn't far behind, and another red state (Florida) comes in third.
The California Department of Finance said state reserves are expected to total $28.8 billion under the 2026-27 budget.
Red herring. They're not the highest. There are different ways to define welfare, but all the searches I made showed California behind several other states (including red states) in per capita terms.
Red herring. According to this site, California come in 19th per capita, behind 16 states that voted red in 2024.
Just wrong. Every site I looked at says no. This particular site has them at 7th, behind New Jersey, New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, and Illinois.
Red herring. That's still in the top half, ahead of lots and lots of red states.
Red herring. They are also found in red state cities, especially those with warm winters – easier to stay alive.
So? Health coverage in the U.S. is still a disaster, especially with Republicans whittling away at the ACA every chance they get. From what I've read, the entire point of MediCal was to lower the number of people depending on emergency room visits, which are much more expensive. In the long run, that's a good thing.
My search says around 40%. But again, so? According to various searches I made, several red states have more than 50% depending on Medicaid for that – Louisiana: 63.5%, Mississippi: 6.6%, Oklahoma: 52.5%, according to this site.
I've said it before, but it's obviously worth saying again...You live in a fantasy world. A hate-based fantasy world at that.
Your unsubstantiated bull shit failed to counter my limited points.
You get high marks for trying to at least put up an argument.
In Conclusion:
California went to being one of the better states (60 years ago) to the "clusterfuck" it is under one-party democrat rule.
While you try to change the focus from Trump to California, your choice for PotUS continues to screw up in a major fashion, affecting not just the USA but the planet:
Perhaps you meant 'concussion'? That would make far more sense considering the brain damaged nonsense that seems to follow it on every seed you've stuck it on.
I think you forgot to add "desperately" in that sentence based on the urgent nature of the comments.
You can tell they're running scared. Mike Johnson was sweating bullets as he told his fellow Republicans that if they don't win in November, they're all going to be held to account for letting Trump run wild for the last two years. I think the sycophants know it too, and they don't want their dear Leader exposed and deposed and spanked in front of the nation and the world. It's going to embarrass them and shame them as their dear accused pedophile Leader is metaphorically neutered before the nation as all his criminal profiteering is scrutinized under the law and the side of congress with a spine takes over for the fucking rightwing conservative wimps and simps who let Trump use them like microwaved melon with a hole in it.
Your neo-fascist propaganda is reaching a fever pitch. It reeks of desperation.
Why isn't Massachusetts a clusterfuck state after 40 years of one party Democrat rule
or is that the root of your bias?
I can attest that Texas is right there with electricity excessive prices and lack of regulations.
Even after the fiasco freeze of 2021 all of the, at first, mandatory upgrades and back up programs were eventually defanged and made voluntary.
It's capitalism run amuck.
Want electric? Install solar and a Generac natural gas generator as a back up.
I think you meant
Because your opinion is just poisonous bile.
Speaking of unsubstantiated BULL SHIT
Probably because with Republican Governors from
1967-1975, Ron Reagan
1983-1991 George Deukmejian
1991-1998 Pete Wilson
2003 - 20111. Arnold Schwartzenegger
It wasn't your imaginary one party rule of 60 years.
So In Conclusion
"F" for the theory and "F" for fact checks.
It is also solidly blue, but for some reason democrat rule hasn't had the same consequences for MA.
Probably because your conclusion about CA is way off
and based on a misunderstanding of large numbers.
Or the Republican years of governance from 1967 to 2011
caused the "decline" you imagine.
CA is still growing in economic power while remaining relatively stable at 39 million for 10 or 11 years running.
Is CA a remarkable economic success - Search
Everything I posted is true. The economy of the state survived, and it is irrelevant as is the climate.
Nonsense, you are so blind to the truth it isn't even amusing anymore.
Well I hate to say this but the climate is relevant. Homeless people in Boston don't shit in parking lots
or make camps because it's too cold and there are 175 public restrooms available 24/7.
Please read my comment here:
Please read my response here:
There shouldn't be homelessness anywhere in this country. We'll make it great again. Don't worry.
Yup, it must seem like that. As the very young White Sox fan famously said "Say it ain't so Joe."
It wasn't your imaginary one party rule of 60 years.
I clearly didn't say the one-party rule began 60 years ago.
You posted my comment correctly, why didn't you read it?
California went to being one of the better states (60 years ago) to the "clusterfuck" it is under one-party democrat rule.
It did not become a disaster at all, you are merely trolling anything blue for partisans sake.
60 years ago all you knew about CA was Disney and Hollywood.
I can post historical records that show migration in and out of the state was largest under GOP Administrations but statistically insignificant even then 1975-2000.
The population has been steady within .005% for almost 12 years while adding 305 million jobs and growing at a 5% per year rate.
That's not a disaster.
Yes their few problems are magnified by their size, not the letter after the Governors name.
Thank goodness you are incapable of changing CA at all with this nonsense.
In Utopia that's true. But here in reality there have been and will always be retarded people walking around thanks to Reagan emptying the asylums
(which were undoubtedly horrendous) Then there are people who simply outlived their savings and lost their homes.
Up and down the West Coast from Mexico to Canada there are homeless people in RV;s that move them every day to avoid citations.
It's the climate. Even in OR it would be unusual to get down to 36, it's always mild, great for camping and thats what happens.
Getting rough with homeless citizens and their camp borders on fascism ( but we have a long history of doing so )
Giving them free housing or too much help smacks of socialism.
So pick your poison.
It's always great to patriots, even with its warts and checkered past.
Why wait?
Shall we list the Counties in the North or the suburbs of LA & San Diego that still vote Red.
And the dream that won't die, of secession to a 51st state or joining the white nationalists in ID?
Almost sounds like the GOP is the racist party, lol.
Here’s why readers say they’re leaving Mass. in 2026
And hundreds of billions in unfunded future liabilities.....
At any moment someone will tell us about the state's GDP, which was based on things that are now under assault.
Maybe someone will tell us that the state has a great climate.
Lots of things in this country are unfunded. War in Iran, for example.
Here is another thing that cannot go ignored:
"Deadbeat California lawmakers still haven’t paid off a $20 billion federal loan for unemployment claims during the COVID-19 pandemic — and struggling businesses are picking up the ballooning tab.
Employers are on the hook for an extra $42 in payroll taxes per employee next year to pay down the massive debt, and that tab will rise every year until the debt is cleared, according to KCRA . That’s because California lawmakers decided to spend the state’s money elsewhere, and under federal rules, employers have to pony up."
California hasn't paid $20B loan for COVID-19 unemployment claims
All that and somehow certain people expect us to believe Mexifornia has the best economy in the country.
I suppose they need to comeback with something. It's either the GDP or the climate.
In the meantime, here is a nice photo of downtown LA:
I've heard some refer to LA as "Los Toilet"
I hear that people don't even like driving through LA anymore. Let us not neglect San Francisco.
From The San Francisco Standard:
"San Francisco has a reputation for sweeping vistas — but it’s also known for trash-plagued corridors and the infamous “ poop map (opens in new tab) .”
A new report from the Controller’s Office for the city and county of San Francisco, tallying sightings of feces , litter , and graffiti from July 2023 to June 2024, provides some relief — and some horror.
Citywide, sightings of litter dropped slightly. But poop sightings are way up."
Rejoice: Litter is down! (But sidewalk poop has shot up) | The San Francisco Standard
Careful where you walk!
But let a communist dictator come and they'll clean it up in a matter of hours.
True, but first they'll have to decide on accomodations:
Weren't those "accommodations" called mental institutions a few years ago?
Yeah, that's something a total Shit Head would say.
No, you don't.
Correction:
Yeah, that's something a TOTALLY IGNORANT Shit Head would say.
Wasn't a leftist that said it.
Obviously it wasn't a leftist that said something that stupid. That's the sort of idiocy that can only come from a right winger.
Yeah! That's what the whole city is like all the time! No rightwing conservative should ever visit San Francisco even though I'm sure they'll just be devastated having to cross that off their bucket list. /s
So, please do keep showing your picture to everyone you know. But don't show them these pictures because that might undermine your narrative and then we'd have a bunch of poorly educated bigots wanting to visit which is the last thing anyone in San Francisco wants. So, keep up the good work with scaring the low income poorly educated rightwing conservatives away from California. I, for one, couldn't be more thankful.
Yes, I do. I know people living out there. I know all about the missing traffic through downtown LA and the truckers in the left lane on your freeways blazing along way over the speed limit, and the all-too-common hit & runs, not to mention the danger of driving the 101.
Some must like it.
Sure you do.
Uh huh. Where did it go?
I've NEVER seen that. No one ever complains about that happening. It's non-existent. We do see lots of trucks with out of state license plates, but they generally drive safely, also.
Mostly caused by people from out of state, like the people visiting from Boston, who don't know how to drive and don't care what kind of destruction they cause. People say the hit and run rate in Boston is through the roof.
The biggest danger by far of driving the 101 is that you might get caught in traffic, so the rule is "Leave early".
California has a total population of 39.3 million people and the homeless rate is 48 per 100,000. Naturally first out of 50 states
Massachusetts has a total population of 8.1 million and the homeless rate is 42 per 100,000, ranked 4th of the 50 states but the weather sucks most of the year.
Where are you going to move to?
Uh...That was Trump's entire campaign. SMFH
Aside from that, name one person on the political stage, upcomer or otherwise, actually aspiring to be a "communist dictator".
Incidentally, Trump is the most autocratic president we've ever had, and you just love him, so it's not as if you really have a problem with the idea of dictators, as shameful and un-American as that is.
I know 4 people living out there. As a matter of fact, you knew one of them. He was very religious and faced a lot of animosity for it as a member here. Another is struggling with permits to build a house in Richmond CA, another is struggling to get by in Lancaster CA, and one who is as old as me and grew up on a farm in Selma CA. I get the most interesting stories from him.
Uh huh. Where did it go?
Less business as I understand it.
"A vicious cycle as the persistent lack of foot traffic continues to lead Downtown’s shifting urban landscape. This downward spiral has sucked both century-old legends and modern pioneers into a “doom loop” downward spiral. A stark departure from the promise DTLA once held during its mid-2010s “Renaissance,” as the year comes to an end, here is a map of the loss of beloved spaces in 2025, once the primary pillars of the Downtown Los Angeles experience."
Echoes of the Doom Loop: Mapping the 2025 Business Closures of Downtown Los Angeles
I've NEVER seen that. No one ever complains about that happening. It's non-existent.
High-severity crashes are concentrated on rural two-lane highways and high-speed urban freeways. Pedestrian fatalities have increased sharply since 2020, now accounting for roughly 25% of all traffic deaths in the state — well above the national average of 17%. NHTSA State Traffic Safety Facts Speed-related crashes remain the leading primary collision factor in fatal crashes statewide. CHP Annual Report
California Crash Statistics — Traffic Accident Data CA
Mostly caused by people from out of state, like the people visiting from Boston,
That would be a long ride. Tell them that I said a plane would make it much easier.
Thanks for the questions. I hope I helped.
Oh, you're talking about the brain-dead reactionary propagandist who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Yes, I imagine those would be your "sources".
The Covid epidemic wreaked havoc on businesses in downtown L. A., thanks in large part to Trump's disastrous so-called leadership. There have been growing signs of improvement.
High speed? In L.A. That would be a surprise to anyone who drives on the freeways around here. Maybe between 2 and 6 am. You haven't provided any credible evidence that traffic problems in L.A. are drastically different, per capita, than any other large city. Pedestrian deaths are a concern and we are taking actions to combat it.
You haven't answered anything. As usual.
He says he loves you too!
The Covid epidemic wreaked havoc on businesses in downtown L. A., thanks in large part to Trump's disasterous so-called leadership. There have been growing signs of improvement.
Based upon what I see on the streets of LA, I think covid might have had a cleansing effect.
Pedestrian deaths are a concern and we are taking actions to combat it.
What are they?
Btw I was watching an old episode of Columbo. Jou know most of those episodes were filmed in and around Los Angeles in the early 70s when Reagan was the Governor of California. It is really amazing to not see homeless encampments or people shooting up or entitled migrants floating around. I don't think they could produce Columbo these days. Imagine him walking through feces trying to get to a Taco stand?
Sorry. He's not my type.
A place you have never seen. Are you trying to fool yourself? Because you certainly aren't fooling anyone else.
You were happy to see people die. Got it.
These are some of the governmental initiatives but they have not been successful enough yet.
There are also private initiatives such as Crosswalk Collective LA. It is increasingly becoming a prioirity for everyone.
He emptied the mental institutions and was responsible for flooding the streets with people who desperately needed the help he refused to fund. As President, his administration slashed the Department of Housing and Urban Development's (HUD) budget, effectively ending federal support for affordable housing construction. That was the beginning of our homeless situation. Thanks, Reagan, for nothing.
You think what you see on TV shows is real. That's pretty delusional.
That only exists in your imagination. Kind of sick.
All I can say is wear your boots for walking and start saving for reparation payments.
No Skid Row of LA. All you have to do is an image search.
I need to wear boots to wade through your comments. Deep shit.
Name any large city or cities in the U.S. that aren't dealing with homelessness and/or traffic and/or crime. And prove it.
There is a Skid Row in L.A. The Los Angeles City Council just approved a $2 billion 7.6 acre mixed-use redevelopment project there.
Amazing how some people, especially people who have never even been here, think they have any idea what is going on when, in reality, they don't have a clue. Of course, there is no reason to listen to them, is there?
You don't know that California, literally did, what I stated right?
You're right!
I think I'll choose a city right in California, one that you may not like:
FRESNO
"The ordinance in Fresno, California, bans sitting, lying, sleeping or camping on public property anytime, anywhere, with a penalty of up to a year in jail."
Many more cities ban sleeping outside despite a lack of shelter space • Stateline
That is literally 1 street in LA. I was just in LA. It didn't look anything like that. Want me to cherry-pick an image from Boston? Here is Mass and Cass:
I can literally do that for every big city, be it blue or red, because homelessness is a nationwide problem.
Vic, here is my issue. You are always complaining about the sensationalism coming from the liberal media, and then you find the same sensational stuff from the conservative media.
1. I don't dislike Fresno, but you must. After all, it's in California
2. You didn't understand my comment, on purpose I'm sure. I said show us a city that doesn't have an issue like homelessness, etc. to deal with. Obviously, Fresno does and they are dealing with it, like so many other cities in California and around the country.
Try again.
That's Boston? What a Clusterfuck.
But he has four friends who say they live in California and say it's a shit hole, so who are you going to believe? The 40 million people who live and work here or the 4 supposed people Vic knows?
I know who you are talking about... Serious question? What happened to him.. I didn't always agree with him but liked his posts.
I've acutally been to Boston and I liked it a lot.
I think we can both remember when there were no homeless encampments in this country.
Do you ever ask how this happened?
No, I posted facts that are beyond dispute.
Not quite. We don't have the same rate of poverty although we do have a racist mayor.
Perrie is clearly not that old:
Dispute must be a little town on the way to Bullshit then.
I don't recall seeing street people and homeless encampments growing up. You are pointing to something from the 1870s to counter that?
Let me just leave you with the words of Peggy Noonan:
"And I have a feeling that people are thinking that they don't really like all that they have seen of the 21st century, and they had a sense that Mr. Trump didn't like it either. That's why they elected him twice. And more than half the country, I think, is just in a major pushback against the establishment."
Peggy Noonan: People Are Not Liking All They've Seen In The 21st Century, That's Why They Elected Trump Twice | Video | RealClearPolitics
I pointed you to the fact that homelessness has been a problem in the USA that predates all of us. That it has a different form than your experiences is to be expected.
Peggy’s quote does not corroborate your point. She makes a valid point but at a very general level.
ChatGPT's explanation of your memories:
And here is Copilots explanation of why it was not a problem in the 20th Century:
Why Homelessness Wasn’t a Problem in the Past — and Why It’s a Crisis Now
Historically, people with severe mental illness were often housed in large state psychiatric hospitals, which provided not only treatment but also stable living conditions. In the mid‑20th century, these institutions were the primary way to care for individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other serious conditions. Because patients were under supervision, they generally had access to food, shelter, and medical care, so homelessness was rare among this group casra.org +1 .
However, starting in the 1950s and accelerating through the 1980s, the U.S. began a process called deinstitutionalization — closing large psychiatric hospitals and shifting care to community-based outpatient services City Relief +1 . This was driven by several factors:
New antipsychotic medications (like chlorpromazine) that reduced the need for long-term hospitalization neurolaunch.com .
Civil rights reforms and public outrage over institutional abuse neurolaunch.com .
Cost-cutting by states, especially after Medicaid expanded in 1965, which incentivized moving patients to cheaper community or nursing facilities neurolaunch.com .
Political and social shifts that made large asylums seem outdated or inhumane The Commentator .
The Community Mental Health Act of 1963 promised a nationwide network of outpatient centers, but funding and staffing never matched the scale of the institutions it replaced neurolaunch.com +1 . As a result, many people with serious mental illness were released without adequate housing, social services, or follow-up care. Instead of going home, they often ended up on the streets, in shelters, or in jails City Relief +1 .
Today, about one-third of chronically unhoused people have a severe mental illness , and over half have co-occurring mental health and substance use disorders City Relief . Emergency rooms, shelters, and law enforcement have become the default response to crises that should be met with housing and treatment. In fact, jails now hold more people with serious mental illness than psychiatric hospitals do neurolaunch.com .
In short: Homelessness wasn’t a problem in the past because people with severe mental illness were institutionalized and cared for in a system that provided housing and stability. Deinstitutionalization removed that system without building the support network to replace it, leading to a sharp rise in homelessness among this population.
In other words, the liberal reformers caused this mess!
I'm sure the America you remember was all sunshine and roses and didn't include all the places where people were struggling to survive. That's why so many really stupid old bigots want to go back to the 1950's and think of that time as idyllic when it was anything but idyllic for millions of Americans who weren't the right shade or religion.
Less than half voted for him and I believe many of those who voted for him did so based on complete lies and bullshit narratives pushed by dishonest scum bags but were apparently enough to convince the poorly educated that Trump was somehow not going to shit on America as he has done since day 1. It's really a challenge to find anyone dumber and more out of touch with reality that a Trump supporter, with the only real competition coming from Putin supporters.
As usual you blame liberals. It is like a boogeyman thing, if you see a problem then it is 'those guys' who caused it. That is not critical thinking, it is emotional.
ChatGPT's response to Copilot and your "the liberals did it" reaction:
The state of our nation is a result of many factors. D and R, liberal and conservative, etc. have all had their hands in the shaping of our current state. When someone claims, as you do, that it (substitute anything here) is because of liberals, one would be well advised to deposit your claim in the trash heap unless it is backed with persuasive evidence and rational logic.
Did they not teach you about the great depression and the Hooverville encampments? Did you never read or see Grapes of Wrath? Have you just been completely ignorant of the last 250 years of American history? We have a LOOOOOONG history of poverty and living on the edges of society for virtually every minority group since our founding, but you imagine homelessness is liberals' fault?
Just when I thought rightwing conservative arguments couldn't get any dumber, I get surprised once again at the new level of complete idiocy.
HA! Homeless rates spiked across the country in 1983 when Reagan closed mental health facilities.
Also, on this.
While Peggy makes a good point, the other point to be made is that too many people had a fantasized perception of Trump. They thought they were electing a competent business genius who would fight the corruption and wasteful spending in the Federal government. What they elected, however, was a pathologically lying, incompetent, irrational, immoral, criminal, vindictive, corrupt psychopath.
Kudos to those who have at least recognized their mistake. Disgrace to those who stubbornly stick with the fantasy rather than admit they were wrong.
YES, I DO!
Of course you do, Vic. That is one of the most predictable things in this forum.
You always blame liberals and defend conservatives. That alone should be your first clue of flawed reasoning. Liberals cannot always be the wrong and conservatives cannot always be right. Seriously, Vic, everyone should recognize that fundamental truth.
As I noted, merely blaming liberals sans persuasive evidence and sound reasoning is something one should reject as emotional — based likely on confirmation bias.
Another grand self delusion.
Peggy Noonans claim to fame was making Ronald Reagan sound intelligent in his first 6 years.
Other than that, her opinions have the weight of Alred E Neuman
Meh.
She was more importantly a columnist for the Wall Street Journal. Her poignant comments about the 21st century resonate with many Americans. She may have been a speech writer for Ronald Reagan, but she isn't much of a Conservative. She is at times, all over the political spectrum.
Why?
I also blame Naziism for all of the problems Germany faced in the post war period. Are you saying that a pervasive ideology can't possibly be to blame for most or all of a nation's problems?
Liberals are not Nazis and liberalism is not Naziism; they are more at the level of libertarians and conservatives than Nazis, Fascists, and Soviet-style Communists. Your posts indicate that you have fabricated an extreme fiction about liberalism and have it as your go-to boogeyman explanation for anything you dislike. That is an emotional view, not critical thinking.
ChatGPT super summary (many more details if you wish):
Clearly not, nor was I comparing liberals to Nazis. I was demonstrating how one group or idea could be responsible for an overwhelming amount of consequences. Liberals once existed in both parties by the way. Nelson Rockafeller, Richard Nixon, Earl Warren, George H W Bush and Mitt Romney were also liberals.
That is not the democrat party of today. Today's democrat party is a revolutionary party, and the proper comparison is to the Jacobins of the French Revolution. Entitled, intolerant and eager to burn everything down.
From Copilot:
The Democratic Socialists of America’s platform, “Workers Deserve More!,” calls for expanded public services, labor empowerment, social ownership, and sweeping political and economic reforms.
Core Economic and Social Policies
DSA’s platform emphasizes strengthening worker power and reducing economic inequality . Key proposals include Medicare for All , tuition-free public higher education , universal childcare and pre-K , paid family leave , and universal rent control . The organization advocates for a 32-hour workweek without pay reduction , stronger union protections, higher taxes on the wealthy and corporations, and a wealth tax . DSA also supports public ownership of major corporations, transportation, energy infrastructure, and natural resources to ensure democratic control and accountability
Yahoo +2 .
Labor and Electoral Strategy
DSA prioritizes a rank-and-file labor strategy , aiming to organize workers in key sectors like education, healthcare, and logistics. The platform combines electoral endorsements with grassroots activism, training candidates and chapters to support democratic socialist policies while building a mass movement for systemic change
dsamomentum.org +1 . The organization operates as a big-tent movement , including social democrats, Marxists, and other leftist currents, which produces internal debates over tactics and platform content 
factually.co .
Immigration, Civil Liberties, and Justice
The platform calls for immigration reform , including amnesty for all immigrants , voting rights for noncitizens , and the abolition of ICE . DSA supports abolitionist approaches to policing and prisons , treating drug addiction as a health issue, and eliminating cash bail and mandatory minimums. It also emphasizes reproductive and gender-affirming care and opposes restrictions on marriage
Yahoo +2 .
Political and Constitutional Reforms
DSA proposes sweeping institutional changes , including abolishing the U.S. Senate , replacing the presidency and Supreme Court with branches subordinate to Congress , ending the Electoral College , and drafting a new constitution based on a single federal legislature with proportional representation. These reforms aim to increase democratic control and reduce the influence of money in politics
Yahoo +2 .
Foreign Policy
The platform advocates for non-interventionist foreign policy , including reducing the U.S. military budget , closing overseas bases , ending economic sanctions on countries like Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran, and supporting Palestinian sovereignty . DSA emphasizes international solidarity and human rights in its foreign policy positions
Yahoo +1 .
Long-Term Vision
DSA’s ultimate goal is to build a democratic socialist society where workers control the economy and government , basic needs are guaranteed, and peace and social justice are prioritized globally. The platform blends immediate reforms with long-term structural change , aiming to create a society where people come before profit
You sure as hell did:
You used Naziism as an example of why you blame liberalism. That is exactly a comparison.
So you would like to switch your ire from liberalism to the Ds? Same problem. Blaming the Ds for most everything bad in the USA is emotional and irrational.
The Democratic Party and the Democratic Socialists are not the same entity. Nor do they have the same objectives or ideology. Further, even the most well-known DS, Bernie Sanders, does not ascribe to all that the DS's desire.
People like Sanders are not out to change our system from capitalism to socialism (per Marx). They are out to make our system fairer (as they see things). That means they want to reign in the runaway capitalism that produces such massive entities as Tesla, Amazon, etc. which continue to increase the disparity of the uber rich from the other 99% of Americans. It means they want to create social programs such as universal healthcare. You could put forth rational arguments as to why this is wrong, or why the ideal is good, but the implementation approach is wrong. But stick with reality rather than exaggerate all of this into a ridiculous fantasy.
Merely blaming the Ds (or whatever) is, IMO, overly-simplistic and reflects emotional confirmation bias rather than critical thinking.
Communism was Germany's problem post war, in some cases until the 1990s.
No, but there were far fewer Nazi adherents left in Germany than Communists.
They still have a Communists party because free Germany is less than 40 years old and most of the grumpy old men were born and raised Red Commies.
I think the "democrat Socialists" now run the party.
Merely blaming the Ds (or whatever) is, IMO, overly-simplistic and reflects emotional confirmation bias rather than critical thinking.
It is not Ds and Rs anymore. It is now Jacobin revolutionary's vs Trump's Counter Revolution. If one loves this country, one is with the Counter Revolution.
Germany being divided up with its eastern precincts put under Soviet Control, as well as much of its eastern territory being incorporated into Poland was a direct result of Naziism and losing the war. Starvation goes unmentioned.
No, but there were far fewer Nazi adherents left in Germany than Communists.
"Germany has stringent anti-Nazi laws as a direct response to its historical legacy under the Third Reich, where the Nazi regime perpetrated unprecedented atrocities, including the Holocaust. These laws, enshrined in the German constitution and penal code, aim to prevent the resurgence of Nazi ideology, symbols, and organizations by criminalizing the dissemination of Nazi propaganda, the display of swastikas, and the denial of the Holocaust.
Rooted in a commitment to democracy, human rights, and historical accountability, these measures reflect Germany’s proactive effort to confront its past and safeguard its future from extremist ideologies. By enforcing such laws, Germany not only honors the victims of Nazism but also reinforces its dedication to fostering an inclusive and tolerant society."
Why Germany Enforces Strict Anti-Nazi Laws: Historical Context And Legal Framework | LawShun
They still have a Communists party because free Germany is less than 40 years old and most of the grumpy old men were born and raised Red Commies.
No, there are Communists everywhere, because Communism was not defeated in WWII. Naziism was defeated.
I believe you do hold that belief. Note that not even Sanders supports the DS objectives in whole. Those who claim to be DS are typically social democrats seeking to constrain runaway capitalism and use those resources for social programs like universal healthcare. They do not call for the abolishment of capitalism (in effect what the DSs want).
This is sickening. You equate love of our country with supporting Trump. Just fucking incredible.
That may be true, but they are passing by him. The democrat party should be very careful who they have with them.
Good grief man, stop parroting Trump. Communism (per Stalin) is no threat in today's USA.
Sometimes I think the MAGA here are just pranking everyone.
Are you paying attention to what Mandami is doing to the city of New York or what happened to the state of California?
They are doing this stuff
Here is the midst of so much rational thought/ s.
They have dropped the pretense of being the democrat party and are finally telling us what they have wanted for years.
Nope. Their lack of education, their absolute groveling loyalty to Trump, their mindless deflections and corroded sick white nationalist religious bigot ideology is all very real.
You continue to conflate social democracy with Democratic Socialism (essentially contemporary classical Marxism — and NOT Stalinism, etc.)
Social programs funded by a regulated private sector are a characteristic of social democracy which is a form of capitalism.
Democratic Socialism is (in its most idealized form) anti-capitalism. It is both critical of capitalism and seeks to replace it in the long term. That established, if you think that New York city and CA are trying to abolish capitalism, then you are fundamentally misreading reality. The focus is on social programs and regulating capitalism. That, Vic, is properly social democracy.
People voted for Mamdami for social change, not to eliminate capitalism, impose authoritarian rule (or whatever else you have imagined).
I agree.
They have it right
No, you look what your precious MAGA is doing to our America!
Other appropriate word bubbles for that pic:
"Well at least the gays are back in the closet!"
"Now we can trust election results!"
"I bet I can scratch my brain with my thumb up my nose, wanna see me try?"
"Who's a total white supremacist religious bigot who loves fascism with at least one thumb? This guy..."
We actually don’t care what ignorant MAGA believes.
And yet here you are.
Yes, I’m here to disabuse you of the erroneous notion that you’re “on to something by exposing what’s wrong in California.” You people obsess on liberal places like Chicago and California to keep from looking too long in the mirror.
But we do care about what Marxist scum do in office.
Good luck with that.
Oh ok. They’re also on your lawn, if you wanna go yell at them.
Then you must care for Trump's dear friend, the Marxist Xi, in the same loving manner Trump does.
Lmfao. What a joke.
After decades of the far right calling damn near everyone in the opposition socialists, communists, Marxists, etc., almost always ignorant of definitions, it's really getting old. You guys need some new material.
Worse, it is willful ignorance.
Cold war red scare fear mongering doesn't works anymore...
[deleted][✘]
It’s a distraction. They hope it will get people talking about something other than the corrupt criminal gang in the White House, or the Epstein files, or any of the long list of shit they should be embarrassed about.
they're all dipped in maga shit, while at the same time complaining about how badly others stink ...
Notice how the Rape of Gazza disappeared?
LA homeowners say ballots keep coming in mail despite repeated efforts to stop them
Exclusive | LA homeowners say ballots are coming even for those who moved away
Is it illegal? Or is it that you don't like it because trump told you to?
The MAGA obsession with California is simultaneously creepy and pathetic. Think of something productive to work on.
Well, those are two things rarely found in the MAGAverse, 'thinking' and 'working'.
This is from the Washington Post (Not exactly MAGA)
Do you know why the Election and the inauguration are so far apart?
So that all of the votes can be counted; prior to the 1930s in was one ballot at a time times all of the states and territories
and all of the requirements to get the docs to the Capitol to count the EC votes.
It's not easy.
I think MAGA going around claiming - without evidence - that elections are rigged does a lot more to undermine faith in elections. That kind of toxic fear-mongering prompts people to attach significance to otherwise innocuous features, like slow counting.
Mmmm, in the 21st century, why would "slow counting" be a "thing"?
Because inherently all people mistrust machines and they count, count again, recount and then audit because they think that statistically it would be impossible to get the same result 4 times out of 4, so in the past when adults ran the parties and approved the candidates, when some one lost, they lost;
Now the results are challenged, over and over, even 6 years later at least by the GOP or the loser.
Like appealing over and over again to the SCOTUS, some people think 9 = 4, there's' always a chance, right?
I don’t love it either. I want them to find ways of getting it done faster. But there’s nothing about it that should undermine confidence in the validity of the election.
California is trying to make it as easy as possible for people to vote by expanding methods of voting, but they also have security measures in place that slow the counting process.
How in the 21st century did a large passenger jet fall off the face of the Earth?
I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Surely it's not literal....
Are you suggesting that it's a failure of the technology involved that is to blame?
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 - Wikipedia
CORRECT.
You seeded this article and thus believe that the factors you listed are worthy of criticism. So surely, since you mentioned Trump, you would recognize that these are even more impactful (affecting the entire nation and the planet) bad results from Trump:
Chronicled, fact-checked, and linked by ChatGPT:
Rational assessment would immediately recognize that the problems caused by Trump dwarf the claimed problems of California.
While I find this an informative list and I am able to read more than a few paragraphs without getting bored, no one who really should read this, will. I have to stop myself sometimes from posting long logical rational arguments, as I often wonder if it's really even worth it. We are shouting into a tempest, and the rightwing conservative tempest is bitter, angry, arrogant, has a room temp IQ and the reading comprehension of a kindergartner, just like their dear Leader.
They don't really give a shit about California; they'll likely never get to visit. They just want to whine and scream like little babies and fling their poo at things they're jealous of that don't give a shit about them either.
It's not a seed, just his own warped version of reality.
True, this is a post, not a seed.
There is no credible basis for criticizing anyone while supporting the 800-pound gorilla who is shitting on our Constitution and incompetently, irresponsibly, and corruptly abusing the powers of his office for personal aggrandizement, revenge, and greed.
True or false:
True
False. It's Hawaii.
True, but Texas is not far behind
False: I like the "had"... had when? California currently projects no budget deficit . In his May revised budget proposal for the 2026–27 fiscal year, Governor Gavin Newsom announced that unexpected surges in tax revenue have eliminated the state's prior shortfalls, leaving a balanced budget with a projected surplus and nearly $30 billion in reserves . [ 1 , 2 , 3 ]
Well, kind of. In raw numbers yes. But as a percentage of population, no.
Again, kind of. as a raw number yes. As a percentage of the population no.
????Which means that there are 27 ranked under it. You seem to forget that the UC system is considered one of the best in the nation. btw... I am not sure where you got that rank number, but there seems to be a wide variation on where their school system ranks.
True, but this is true in many cities in both blue and red states... so it really means nothing.
38% but I will give a true to that. But that is not an unusual thing. Louisiana has 40%
Flase. The state pays for 38-40% of the births, which of course is the same as the number of people on Medical
So, of the 11 points, you rate 7 true, reluctantly and adding context (like "kind of" or "but") for those who don't like the facts.
Thus, let me focus on the 4 you claimed as "false."
1) Hawaii does surpass California at 46.62¢ per kilowatt-hour (kWh) , nearly 148% above the national average of 18.83¢.
Electricity Rates by State (July 2026) | Electric Choice
So, you got me there. I forgot the state that isn't part of the Continental US and depends totally on importing fossil fuels.
California had a $70 Billion deficit.
2) That one is true . I clearly said HAD and it was for fiscal 2024-2025 following a supposed $100 Billion Surplus.
After A $100 Billion Surplus, California Now Faces A $73 Billion Budget Deficit | Hoover Institution After A $100 Billion Surplus, California Now Faces A $73 Billion Budget Deficit
Thus, I was correct! Funny how nobody ran my statement on Google to simply see when the HAD was? It was last year!!!
3) New Jersey does have a higher property assessment than California. I got that Cleary wrong. I was dead wrong on that one.
4) 50% of all births are paid for by the state.
In California, Medi-Cal pays for nearly half of the state’s roughly 500,000 annual births.
Medi-Cal Explained: Paying for Maternity Services
That one I was 100% right on.
Out of 11 points, 2 were wrong.
Is this how we try to counter the premise of the article? Why would anyone try to dispute that California has been terribly run?
I'll give you credit for getting me to take the time to respond to post # 1.2 . If that was the goal, mission accomplished.
Re: #2 I didn't say you were wrong. I noted you said, "had". You were implying that the deficit was Newsom's fault. But budgets vary for many reasons, and if the deficit was his fault, so was the surplus, which you seem to doubt, for no known reason. Btw, the gov has only some impact on fiscal budgets. They change because of many economic factors.
I will give you #4, since it came directly from them.
But somehow you seemed to miss that they are the biggest economy in the US. That is not a clusterf*ck.
No, out of 11 points, most were accusations against CA that while true, are shared by MANY States and have much worse offenders among the Red States. And the two that were wrong were completely egregious and yet you just paint over them as if there's nothing to see here without explaining to everyone why you felt the need to LIE about California. But I'm not surprised. It's clearly par for the course for Trump and the sycophants that follow him around eating his turds and trying to convince the rest of us they're precious 'Trump power pellets' that make them smart and strong.
Because it's a lie pushed by arm chair quarterbacks with some sort of emotional partisan axe to grind.
It's imaginary.
Well, if they are mostly true, they aren't accusations. Actually, it was mostly common knowledge.