"Experts are desperate to warn the public": Hundreds sign Dr. John Gartner's Trump dementia petition
By: Chauncey DeVega (Salon)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Since at least 2016, a brave, determined, and stalwart group of psychologists and other mental health professionals have been trying to warn the public about Donald Trump's obvious unwellness and pathological behavior. Based on mountains of public evidence of Trump's behavior and what he has encouraged in others, these mental health experts concluded that the corrupt twice-impeached ex-president, a sexual assaulter as confirmed by a court of law, aspiring dictator, and defendant who is now facing hundreds of years in prison appears to be a sociopath if not a full-on psychopath.
In following through on their ethical obligations, the "duty to warn" the public about a uniquely powerful and dangerous person such as Donald Trump, these mental health professionals risked their careers, reputations, and yes, even personal safety. If members of Congress, then President Trump's cabinet officials, senior law enforcement, and others with the power to contain the dangerous ex-president had listened to them and acted accordingly, the country would not be on the precipice of Trump's return to power where he will, as threatened and promised, become America's first dictator.
As seen in the last few weeks and months, Donald Trump's dangerousness is rapidly escalating. At his rallies and other events, Donald Trump is exhibiting obvious and repeated examples of challenges in his speech, language, and memory. In a widely read series of conversations here at Salon, Dr. John Gartner, who is a prominent psychologist and contributor to the bestselling book "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President," has been warning that Trump is apparently suffering from dementia or some other type of brain disease.
Gartner summarizes this as: "Not enough people are sounding the alarm, that based on his behavior, and in my opinion, Donald Trump is dangerously demented. In fact, we are seeing the opposite among too many in the news media, the political leaders and among the public. There is also this focus on Biden's gaffes or other things that are well within the normal limits of aging. By comparison, Trump appears to be showing gross signs of dementia. This is a tale of two brains. Biden's brain is aging. Trump's brain is dementing."
One of Dr. Gartner's colleagues, Dr. Harry Segal, who is a senior lecturer at Cornell University and Weill Cornell Medical School, has gone so far as to suggest that Donald Trump should withdraw from the 2024 Election and seek immediate medical help.
Dr. Gartner is far from alone in his concerns and warnings.
In attempt to raise public awareness, Dr. Gartner has created a new petition at Change.org.: "We diagnose Trump with probable dementia: A petition for licensed professionals only."
Related
Trump's CPAC speech showed clear signs of major cognitive decline — yet MAGA cheered
At the time of this writing, hundreds of verified mental health and other medical professionals have signed the petition. This group includes some of the leading experts in their respective disciplines. Some of these signers have also offered detailed comments about what they have concluded, based on the obvious evidence, is Donald Trump's increasing cognitive difficulties, and why he is therefore unfit for office.
In this, our third conversation about Donald Trump's apparent cognitive problems, Dr. Gartner continues to document the ex-president's behavior, explains the importance of the growing consensus by medical professionals that Trump is apparently experiencing cognitive challenges, and warns that the ex-president should not be given access to classified information because he is untrustworthy and easily manipulated by malign actors.
This conversation has been edited for clarity and length.
Several weeks ago, we began our series of conversations here about Trump's obvious cognitive challenges and how they appear to be getting worse at a rapid pace. It is all unfolding as you predicted.
Our conversations are starting to feel like a weekly dementia round-up. Trump keeps proving my point. This week's lowlights include more phonemic aphasias. Here are a few examples I have noted. "We have becrumb a nation." "All comp-ply-ments" to Joe Biden. "I know Poten." "He can't cam-pay." He can't campaign. "We will expel the wald-mongers."
"The American people are going to have a collective nervous breakdown if Trump takes back power."
We had more examples where Trump couldn't complete a sentence and strung the fragments together incoherently. It's worth noting that his demeanor changes dramatically at these moments. At one point, Trump was making nonsense sounds, struggling to form even a single word. At one of his events, he said "We'll re-ve-du. Ohhhh.." At that moment, Trump took a long-defeated sigh, and looked up at the ceiling blankly, looking confused and de-energized. Finally, Trump is sometimes reduced to simply vocalizing nonsense sounds that are not words at all like an infant. For example, at a recent rally Trump said "Gang, boom. This is me. I hear bing". Trump is literally babbling nonsensically and his followers at these rallies, or interviewers on right-wing media, are nodding their heads in appreciation like he makes sense. This is deeply disturbing.
I am continuing to catalogue examples of what to me, clearly appear to be his cognitive decline. I just gave you some examples from last week, but there are more. Ron Filipkowski has a super-cut reel on Twitter that shows 30 examples of gross cognitive slippage from the last week alone. 30! How much more evidence do we need before the mainstream media starts asking the question: Is Trump showing signs of dementia?
You have started a petition at Change.org where medical professionals can sign and offer a comment if they have come to the preliminary conclusion that Donald Trump is exhibiting signs of apparent cognitive decline. Why did you take this step? What has the response been like?
I knew medical and mental health professionals were seeing what I was seeing: flagrant and increasingly frequent signs of dementia, signs that really can't be that easily confused with anything else, and signs that aren't subtle. We're seeing them week after week, and they are getting worse and worse. And no one is saying anything! I had to find a vehicle to give other medical and mental health professionals a chance to express their professional opinions and have a voice. That was the purpose of the petition. At this point, the petition has over 300 verified signatures. Those numbers are going to grow because the petition has only been available for about a week, or so. These licensed professionals, many of them experts in this subspecialty, are making the medical case, point by point with concrete behavioral examples, that Trump's behavior strongly suggests dementia.
The petition includes signers from the faculties of the country's best medical schools. These are people who know what they're talking about.
These experts are desperate to warn the public, because they see the signs of Trump's cognitive decline through the eyes of years of training and experience.
They know better than anyone the alarming implications of what we are all seeing with our own eyes. It's maddening to them that no one with the right letters after their name is sounding the alarm. The licensed professional experts who signed this petition are medical whistleblowers, risking their reputations and their livelihoods to warn the country of looming catastrophe. Lots of my good colleagues begged off signing this petition, admitting to men that they were afraid of potential reprisals, both professional and personal. These signers are heroes in my book.
Why do you think the American mainstream news media, for the most part, is staying away from this issue of Trump's obvious aberrant behavior? Why are they not talking in clear and explicit terms about what all of us can see?
I really don't know what their motivation is. Sometimes I'm very cynical, and I just think that these media outlets are owned by huge corporations that are inherently conservative and right-wing. Sometimes I just think they're cautious. In Jennifer Rubin's column in the Washington Post, she called out her colleagues in the media for harping on Biden's age and while remaining silent about Trump's increasingly obvious cognitive decline. She mentioned our conversations here as a model for how the story should be reported. But Rubin is an outlier. I want to shame the American news media into covering Trump's readily apparent cognitive decline. We are imperiled as a country and a people. I want to make enough noise so the media can't keep ducking the question.
The press has flogged the non-story of Biden's age to death. Yes, Biden's old. So am I. He forgets names and dates. So do I, and so do most of the people in my age cohort. So what? To say we're less able because of these blips is just plain ageism, pure and simple. News flash: We senior citizens have something you young whippersnappers don't: the wisdom and judgment that comes from experience. Most societies revere their elders but we ridicule ours.
Meanwhile, the press edits out the most disordered parts of Trump's speeches or normalizes his behavior with innocuous euphemistic words, like "rambling" The press is pathologizing the normal in the case of Biden and normalizing the pathological in the case of Trump. It's perverse.
How do you rebut the obvious, and at this point tedious, pushback that you and your colleagues are violating the so-called Goldwater Rule?
It has become a type of blanket denial, this hiding behind the Goldwater Rule. Apparently, no matter what symptoms we are seeing, no matter how much evidence there is, and no matter how many people with direct contact with Trump say that there is a serious problem with his precipitous decline, medical and mental health professionals are supposed to ignore it and treat the whole matter as some type of unknowable thing—because we didn't meet personally with Trump. Does that make sense to you? Obviously, Donald Trump is not going to submit himself to a psychiatric examination from neutral parties who are real experts and then give them permission to report their findings to the public. Ultimately, the people who have the expertise to explain what appears to be happening with Trump's mind and brain are forbidden from commenting on it.
We are the only medical specialty or profession of any kind under a permanent gag order, and all because Barry Goldwater embarrassed the American Psychiatric Association when he sued a magazine in 1964 for some ill-advised psychiatric opinions they quoted. And if a mental health professional has the courage to speak the truth, they're told that what they have to say is entirely invalid because of this antiquated ethical precept. First of all, we really should make a distinction between invalid and unethical.
If you want to argue that I'm being unethical for diagnosing Donald Trump, well that's one argument we can have. But that doesn't mean that I'm not accurate in my diagnosis. Looking at the petition, these are very serious and expert people, real professionals with decades of experience, who have reached the conclusion based on the available evidence — which is overwhelming — that Donald Trump appears to be showing signs of probable dementia. One can potentially argue that they shouldn't be speaking publicly about this, but one cannot reasonably deny their expertise or the evidence. So, in the end, who are you going to believe? Medical experts with years of experience, making fact-based arguments based on observable data who are literally risking their careers to warn the public or the MAGA apologists and propagandists?
What is the consensus that has been reached by the medical professionals who have signed your Change.org petition?
Trump's a classic case of dementia. He ticks all the boxes. He's shown a precipitous decline from his baseline—He once had a rich vocabulary and spoke in polished paragraphs. And he shows the classic disturbances in memory, language, behavior, and motor performance that we see in dementia patients. If Trump were their patient or my family member, they would urgently refer him for an emergency neuropsychiatric evaluation. And under no circumstances would a patient showing this level or organic cognitive decline be capable of being president.
Donald Trump commands the support of tens of millions of people. His most diehard followers exhibit the behavior of being in a cult. Trump exalts in being a de facto cult leader. In terms of the leader-follower dynamic, what will happen to our society if Trump, given his apparent cognitive and emotional and intellectual difficulties, were to become president again?
It is a national emergency. If Trump were to take back the White House, the American people would be living in what would be the equivalent of an insane asylum. The leader would be like a mad king, and everything would make no sense. The country would be ruled by the chaos emanating from President Donald Trump. Most people cannot imagine how bad it is going to be when Donald Trump has absolute power. The American people are going to have a collective nervous breakdown if Trump takes back power.
If Donald Trump is in fact suffering from some type of cognitive deterioration as you and your colleagues have initially concluded, how would this impact his impulse control? The ability to self-censor his thoughts and speech for example? To behave responsibly and self-regulate?
There's a lack of awareness about his own behavior from Trump. Many of the experts who signed the petition made that observation. Trump makes these gross verbal errors, talking in gibberish and nonsense, but he has such confidence that he keeps going. He just barrels through without embarrassment or being self-conscious about his obvious problems. Because of his severe personality disorder, he's always lacked a capacity for self-awareness and critical self-reflection about hideous behavior. But now, he's oblivious to the fact that his mind appears to be rapidly deteriorating before our eyes.
Donald Trump does not have a moral core. He has demonstrated that repeatedly through his decades of life. But now it appears that Trump is having problems with self-regulation. That is a horrible combination, one that results in chaotic random evil behavior. In the end, Trump's apparent inability to self-regulate is just an aggravating factor that magnifies all the other pathologies that we've seen thus far.
Donald Trump, because of his status as the de facto Republican presidential nominee, is poised to begin receiving classified intelligence briefings. Should Trump have access to this information?
We know that Trump will sell the information to the highest bidder. Given Trump's character, that would be the case excluding any neurological problems. Trump has no loyalty to the United States. He is only loyal to his own self-interest — and based on his behavior perhaps Vladimir Putin too. If someone is charged with multiple indictments for stealing classified documents, you probably shouldn't give them more classified documents.
To that point. Trump just met with the autocratic leader Viktor Orban of Hungary. Trump openly admires Putin and other political gangsters, thugs, and tyrants. Given your conclusion, how easy would it be to manipulate Donald Trump?
Very easy. We're not talking about a demented Ronald Reagan, who still loved America, and in the end wanted to do right for the country. Donald Trump has shown himself to be a traitor who will do anything he can to hurt the country for his own benefit. That is Trump's default position. Were Trump to become president again, how hard would it really be for our foreign adversaries to manipulate a president who can already be won over with simple ego-stroking and bribes, but is now also experiencing obvious cognitive decline?
Donald Trump, because he's fundamentally corrupt at his core, attracts confidence men, de facto psychopaths, and swindlers into his inner circle. In a vulnerable demented state, there are going to be lots of people working for Trump who are being paid by foreign governments and other hostile interests to manipulate him to do things that are favorable for them and not America.
Do you believe that President Biden should directly engage these questions about Trump's mental and emotional health? If one of his advisors or some Democratic Party campaign consultant reached out to you, what would you tell them?
President Biden has always done better when he's gotten more aggressive. The State of the Union speech was a great example of this. Why wouldn't Biden and the Democrats not inveigh against the real dangers presented by Trump's severe cognitive decline? I would argue they're obligated to. It's the truth! And people need to know.
Otherwise, the Republicans control the false narrative, focusing on Biden's age when we should be focusing on Trump's dementia.
Beyond any clinical observations or evaluations, as a human being, how are you feeling watching Trump behave like this?
It's terrifying. This is a nightmare scenario. I have been speaking to my colleagues and also those medical professionals who have contributed to the petition and they are telling me that they are scared too. They're all saying that this person is uniquely incapable of being president because on top of his malignantly narcissistic personality, he now appears to be losing his cognitive abilities. Can you imagine a worse combination? I'm learning to be more spiritual and to give more trust to the universe. That's the only way I'm surviving. We must continue to sound the alarm. Those of us who can see what is going on with Trump's obvious cognitive challenges must not let ourselves be gaslit into thinking that this is all somehow normal. We are not hallucinating or imagining things. Donald Trump is dangerous and becoming even more so. That's obvious to anyone paying attention.
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about this topic
- "Obviously low IQ": Former DHS official says "Donald Trump has apparent repeated memory lapses"
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- "Like someone pulled the metaphorical plug": Dr. John Gartner on Trump's "accelerating dementia"
More desperate leftist propaganda. Talk about a biased and unbalanced article, without a bit of supporting evidence.
It doesn't take a graduate degree in psychology to make the diagnosis that both Trump and his minions are all insane.
So you think that Trump deserves refuge in insanity pleas.
It kind of reminds me of the 50 former intelligence officials....who signed onto a lie to hurt Trump.
Yea, sure, everyone is lying, but the guy who told 30,000 lies in 4 years, that's you're beacon of truth.. Wow.
The former 'president' has been demented/dementing for quite some time now and it gets worse by the hour/day.
Hilarious that leftists screamed at the sky continuously when many in the public deemed Biden as having dementia, saying that no one with merit has actually given a cognitive evaluation and formally given the diagnosis of dementia, but are quick little lemmings to fall for this leftist nonsense.
The hypocrisy is mind boggling.
Watched the State of the Union speech and there is nothing wrong with Biden's mind.
Quite a few folk realized that their worries were only the result of far right wing propaganda fueled by Putin's propaganda ministry.
What are the numbers that you’re seeing?
He’s totally fine….
I'd rather sign Biden's first.
Really, for i don't see how the two are comparable, but that's just me, i guess
It's called opposite sides of the fence. You believe what you will and I'll believe what I want. I respect your right to your views and only ask the same in return. You have a good evening.
I do not recall me being disrespectful in our encounters, and each is entitled to their own, just can't seem to understand, who it is, you wish to
I did not mean to imply any disrespect as I did not see any from you. If I gave that impression, please accept my apologies. What I was trying to get across was agree to disagree and let it go at that. I hope that clarifies things.
It’s funny watching the left trying to make Biden’s problem (mental acuity degradation) Trumps problem. That said Biden scares me much more than Trump. Not completely because of Joe but because of what’s behind him. Kamala …..
It's not even just that, the propaganda arm of the DNC is constantly exaggerating ever mental lapse that trump experiences while covering and hiding Bidens oblivious mental decline into senility. If he dies on live TV we will see reports of late onset narcolepsy to explain his sudden drop at the podium, followed by excuses involving trump why he no longer makes public appearances.
His entire life is a mental lapse
A lot more people are on to that gambit in 2024 than in 2020. Plus people can compare the jobs they did now. The sky screaming is going to be copious and much louder this time around. I really expect some of those folks to snap completely.
We might lose some of our friends on the left here on NTers.
No hair off my ass. Would make the place much saner.
lol John - his brain and mind are lapsed - we don't have to exaggerate a goddamned thing.
The endless defense of the defensible is so tiresome.
I think you meant "indefensible".
You should know. Thanks for the correction.
And probably much more polite at that.
And certainly no one will be exempt from being held responsible for various infractions.
It would actually be fair all around.
Did research into Kamala and found she is quite intelligent and more than capable of being a great president.
That's probably why far right wingers hate her so much. Jealousy.
You know how to tell a joke!
Opinions do vary. Greatly in this case. Feel free show your “research” and maybe change some minds. Otherwise yours is just another opinion. Nothing more.
Nah, I have no reason to feel that way. Hate and jealousy seem to be emotions many liberals tend to use when it comes to politics. I don’t. There is just nothing remotely impressive about her imo. She is good at dropping the ball though. The border is proof of that.
Jealousy indeed:
“We must together. Work together. To see where we are. Where we are headed, where we are going and our vision for where we should be. But also see it as a moment to, yes. Together, address the challenges and to work on the opportunities that are presented by this moment.”
“I love Hanukkah because it really is about the light, and bringing light where there has been darkness. And there is so much work to be done in the world, to bring light.”
“So, Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia is a powerful country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine. So, basically, that’s wrong, and it goes against everything that we stand for.”
“The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time.”
”It is time for us to do what we have been doing. And that time is every day. Every day it is time for us to agree that there are things and tools that are available to us to slow this thing down”
Trump's cognitive deficiency is significant and accelerating rapidly. He is noticeably deteriorating on an almost daily basis. It is very likely he will be totally non-functioning and require institutionalization within the next 6-9 months.
Biden, as any careful and honest observor is able to discern, is fully functional, in command of all of his mental faculties and exhibits no deficits other than some that are minor and to be expected of any other individual of his age.
President Biden soundly and thoroughly kicked maga ass at the SOTU and they're all still licking their wounds. The projection is palpable.
Many right wingers have a compulsive need to lie in order to feel better about themselves, and maybe they even believe their own lies. Not unlike their Dear Leader Trump. Normal people aren't buying any of it.
Honestly Gsquared - if that's your opinion of either/both of the two - does that mean you're gonna vote for Schiff/Harris?
Both candidates would probably not fare well on cognitive tests.
Which really makes me wonder:
What do voters see in either one that earns their vote?
For many, the only thing required is to belong to their party.
For others, they vote based on policies and disregard most other factors.
The rest are probably best described as those who genuinely are voting for the candidate.
And let's not forget those who resign themselves to voting for the lesser of two evils.
You asked about voters who consider the candidate to have earned their vote.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is by definition NOT voting based on an earned vote.
Yes, I know what I wrote.
I wasn't going to point it out, but now I will.
Your "answers" fell short of describing what any candidate has done to EARN your vote.
"For many, the only thing required is to belong to their party. (Note: NOT something a candidate does that EARNS a vote)
For others, they vote based on policies and disregard most other factors." (Note: NOT necessarily what a candidate does to earn a vote.)
What specifically has Joe Biden done to EARN your vote?
Neither the R or D candidate has earned my vote. Haley earned my vote. Others earned my vote. But none of them are viable candidates.
I have repeatedly explained to you in detail how I do NOT support Biden for PotUS yet you still do not understand that he ipso facto has not earned my vote.
The Ds on this site seem to understand that I do not support Biden ... and they are not all that pleased with it. Why is it that this escapes you?
Do the math, Texan. This is easy.
So Biden has done nothing to earn your vote, but still gets it. The Democratic Party is depending on voters just like you to prop Biden up.
Let's get something straight. Every time I disagree with you does NOT mean I don't understand something, and it is an ignorant, weak argument to make when I have told you over and over and over I understand.
I consider you "supporting" Biden because you told me you will vote for him. To me, and millions of others, that is called "support". I realize, recognize, and know you think differently.
Suffice it to say you WILL vote for Biden even though you claim he has done nothing to earn it and don't support him.
Where does that make you fall in the categories of voters you described in post 6.1?
You're wasting time and bandwidth on snark. That's great.
Enter the concept of lesser of two evils. I am voting against Trump.
Ignored.
And when I explain to you that I am not supporting Biden but rather using my vote against Trump you continue to make obtuse comments like this. Lesser of two evils is not a difficult concept. If Trump was not the GOP nominee, I would quite likely be voting R given Biden is the presumptive D nominee.
I fall in NONE of those categories because, as I explained to you, those categories are addressing your question of earned vote. Biden has not earned my vote.
You keep asking questions like this and then whine that my answers do not deliver the level of respect you desire. It is up to you to do better.
So my statement is 100% correct, Biden gets your vote although he has done absolutely nothing to earn it. You aren't "supporting" Biden, just voting "against" Trump. I got it!
Not a thing obtuse about it. Nothing.
No one said it was a difficult concept. No one said it was easy, either. I just didn't feel the need to say it since no one has made the argument.
But he WILL garner your vote. Do you think it matters in some way WHY you vote for Biden?
Like I have stated earlier, I prefer my candidates to EARN my vote. It is important to me to know that I vote for someone with integrity, intelligence, statesmanship, and common sense-----far more than "He isn't as bad as your guy" reasoning ever can or will.
Yet more unwarranted snark from you. Kind of boring.
Biden, if younger, would be a consideration. As I have explained to you in detail in the past, there are policies of Biden that I like such as continuing the evolution away from fossil fuels to renewable clean energy, support for Roe v Wade (or equivalent), responsible actions to mitigate climate change, support for NATO, etc. And I consider Biden presidential (albeit awkward). So if he were 15 years younger I might be in a position that he has earned my vote. But at his age, there really is no way for him to earn it. And his illegal immigration policies are a disaster. He is simply too old (Trump is too old too).
But yes, I am voting against Trump. Everyone should. Trump is a scoundrel who should never be allowed access to the presidency. Those who do not try to stop him are acting irresponsibly, irrationally, and unpatriotically.
It seems to matter to you ... you seem obsessed with it.
Interesting that keeping Trump out of office is more important than having someone good in office. I see the "successes" that type of thinking has led to with our current crop of candidates. Fantastic, no?
And yet, you dodged the question!
You make this comment and then whine that I treat it as obtuse.
No, Texan, it is much more important to me to have someone good in office. In reality, we have Biden or Trump. Which is the good one? There are no other viable candidates, so who do I vote for?
Be realistic.
You can argue the things I don't say until the cows come home. You don't need my participation for that.
I'm a registered Democrat and I'm not fully behind Biden, either. So you can count me as one who is not displeased with you.
But I have to say if it comes down to Biden or T-rump in November, I will vote Biden, unless I see a viable third option
I'm not displeased with your nonsupport of President Biden. That's your choice. I respect that.
I don't agree with some of your views/thoughts/choices. That's my choice. I believe you respect that.
I am displeased with those, who as you see, and everyone else here, that some do anything to disparage President Biden and go to unbelievable lengths to defend the indefensible, the former 'president'. Again, my choice and I have absolutely zero respect for those folks.
You must not be reading or talking about my posts then. I am not defending Trump and have repeatedly said I am not voting for him.
But you have weighed in showing that you have indeed recognized that I do not support Biden even though I plan to vote for him as my best shot at voting against Trump.
As I have pointed out, this is a small forum and there is no excuse for someone to repeatedly misrepresent my voting intention as support for Biden. It is dishonest and is almost certainly done simply to be obnoxious.
I am confident that virtually every one of your fellow Ds on this forum understand my position as you do.
Agreed all around. I tire of the obnoxiousness of some and completely ignore and disregard and disrespect those (for the most part) who do that endlessly.
I respect also that you would have voted for Haley if she was an option though I would never vote for any republican that I can think of, except possibly the rare few with a spine.
So you're attempting to shame about half of the electorate. That's just plain stupid and illogical.
And yet you sound willing to vote for someone who is demonstratedly worse, even as you claim to not support him.
But it isn't any of those things if you vote for Joe!
/s
Anyone voting for Trump should be ashamed.
Your thinking that Biden is worse is irrational. Trump is an order of magnitude worse for this nation than Biden.
As should Biden voters.
That thinking is irrational and obviously partisan regardless of proclamations to the contrary..
If Trump wins there is about a 0 percent chance democracy as we know it will end. Policies, many of them good, most of them better than Bidens, will be similar to what we saw during his presidency. Hardly the worst thing for the country.
If Biden wins there is more than a 75% chance he will bring us farther down the toilet than we already have gone based on his policies. There is 100% chance his dementia that he refuses to get tested for and his minions hide him for will get worse and his decisions will get worse and worse for the country. For sake of discussion I believe there is a 50/50 chance we end up with Kamala as president and that may be worse than Joe if that is even possible.
I give the senate and Congress about 50/50 to be dem. If the stars align for the dems and Joe is president and the dems get both houses the dems will be full out left wing nut job central. About as bad as it can get for the country.
Based on probabilities of what could happen I think your order of magnitude worse could be on the wrong foot.
As for you daily Jan 6th proclamations there is very little relevance to how he would do in the future except for the 0% chance Trump would end democracy if he were elected.
So by your logic, which is basically nonexistent in my view, a president can try and steal his reelection and get away with it as long as enough people think that his next time as president would be good for some segment of the country.
Whatever happened , in your mind , to the idea of holding criminals responsible for their behavior? Trump tried to steal the 2020 election, the evidence is overwhelming, and yet to you, from what you pretty clearly said, it's OK to put him back in office because he might do some policies that you agree with.
Let's see if you can corroborate your claims. If not, they are just comments intended to be obnoxious.
Not anything I have claimed or have ever claimed. Strawman.
I have rarely criticized Trump's policies. I have criticized his handling of the pandemic. I would, if policy was more important than character, criticize his policies regarding renewable energy and the rights of women. Other than that, my criticism of Trump deals with him being the face of our nation and holding the most powerful office on the planet. Trump is a loose cannon who will clearly be worse if reelected. He has demonstrated that he puts himself first over country and Constitution. He has demonstrated that he does not listen to advisors and will surround himself with sycophants who agree with whatever nonsense he spews. He is entirely unpresidential. He should never be allowed access to any political power, much less the presidency.
A 75% claim! No facts, just a claim with a specific number. Impressive!
A clinical diagnoses of dementia by RdtC of NT, M.D.
And a specific 100% quantification at that!
Even Harris is an order of magnitude better than Trump IMO. And I am no fan of Harris. But I do agree that Biden could easily not finish his second term. Mortality is a real thing.
Even that does not in any way justify voting for Trump. Amazing that you even consider Trump!
Your probabilities are unsubstantiated. They are meaningless. They cannot be taken as premises for a sound argument.
Again, I have made no such claim. Do better than produce strawman arguments and put forth unsubstantiate probabilities and clinical diagnoses.
Yours is a fine one-sided comment that suggests you will be voting for Trump.
Talk about uncorroborated claims.
It is still there. That is why we have laws and courts, to hold criminals accountable.
The irony is deep.
Sooooooo. You do like some of his policies, but instead of using those reasons as to why he has earned your vote, you are going with "he's not Trump"
A little odd reasoning as to why you would support someone,
What has confused you?
The fact that I like some of Trump's policies does not even come close to justifying voting for him given his plethora of negatives. Besides, I do not hold the bizarre belief that only Trump can support these policies.
The negatives greatly outweigh the positives. Is that (somehow) not clear to you?
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Never said you did. Why did you being up something never accused?
"The negatives greatly outweigh the positives. Is that (somehow) not clear to you?"
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And you don't?
and yet you do the same thing on a regular basis.
Demonstrated to whom?
In my opinion, not voting should be criminal but 40% usually do not vote.
The 60% have to decide whether to join the 40% or hold their nose
and vote for the better candidate or the lesser of two evils.
Thus it has been and thus it will likely always remain.
Just spare me the rhetoric...
pence just announced he wouldn't endorse the former 'president' in 2024, not because he is a traitor many times over and incited the mob against him on 1/6 but because he's not conservative enough
Politicians suck.
Some D's on this site know I do not like Biden and flat out hate me for not sharing their worldview because I am a conservative Independant which seems to be anathema to some here on NT. It does not matter that I have also been critical of Trump whom I also dislike. Then again some are passive in their dislike. You and I did not get along at first but we learned to respect each other as people and each other's views even though we don't always agree, but that is what friends do. My sincere thanks to you.
"Politicians suck."
It's the nature of the beast.
I typically get along well with honest people like you. I have little tolerance for those who routinely use dishonesty as a tactic.
As for being an independent, there is no winning. In the political world, if one is critical of one party (or member of a party) it largely does not matter that one has a history of also being critical of the other party. Not caring about which party is involved when criticizing or praising is a freedom of an independent but the non-independents act as though they cannot believe it possible for someone to truly not care about any political party.
Once properly convicted in a court of law then they can be held accountable and punished accordingly if found guilty by a judge and jury. Before that happens,due process is the law of the land.
Texan - it's not who the candidate is or what they represent. All they have to have after their name is a "R" or a "D" - party first - always - party first.
U.S. Citizens are so numb and lacking in the understanding of how/what/why our government functions - whatever their "party" tells them - that makes it just fine.
Futch the candidate.
Yeah, I like for candidates to earn MY vote.
if more people did likewise, maybe we would end up with better people in office.
If only leaders would stop starting wars.
If only people would not try to steal from others.
If only people would just be nice to each other.
The problem is that reality does not always accommodate our wishful thinking. Rational thinking involves taking actions that have a realistic chance of making a desired difference.
Specifically, in 2024, you refusing to vote for a viable candidate means that others will make the real decision.
I see it differently and think that comment is rather ignorant.
You will no more make a real decision than anyone else.
If your candidate doesn't win, is your vote wasted? Did only the voters whose candidate won "make the real decision"? That is what you imply, so clarify if that isn't what you actually meant.
That is irrational. If only Biden or Trump can win the presidency, casting a vote for one of them is taking real action. Casting a vote for someone else is merely symbolic.
It is AT LEAST as "rational" as your claim.
Why won't you answer that if Biden loses, did you waste your vote?
Do you need me to spell every little detail out to you?
Of course I do not consider my vote wasted if Biden loses! My vote does not determine the election. It is just one vote. I will have done my part regardless of the outcome.
My vote helps keep Trump from the presidency, it does NOT determine the winner.
Good grief man, this is basic stuff.
Well, gee, why do you consider my vote wasted if I don't vote for Trump or Biden? That is irrational thinking. We are both voting for who we CHOOSE to vote for no matter the reasons why. My vote is no more wasted on a third party candidate than yours is if Biden loses.
And there is yet more petty snark from you.
Yes. In 2024, voting for anyone else or not voting at all accomplishes nothing. There is no viable third party for you to vote for. Your vote will simply make you feel better. So that is what it accomplishes ... you feel better.
Frankly, I fully expect you to vote for Trump regardless of what you claim. Your comments are always over-the-top negative on Biden and always defensive against criticism of Trump. So my hypothesis is that you are simply claiming to not vote for Biden or Trump so that you can (falsely) claim that "I did not vote for him".
What does voting for the loser accomplish to you?
I have never claimed any of that. How will it make me feel better, and better than WHAT?
When I leave the voting booth, I will be proud to have voted for the person I think best suited for the job.
As I fully and always figured you to be a Biden voter no matter your claims.
One of us has ALWAYS maintained that he won't be voting for Biden or Trump this election and one of us hasn't.
Good luck (you'll definitely need it!) proving THAT "hypothesis"!
In my opinion, the term viable candidate can sometimes be highly subjective.
What, specifically, do you mean?
In 2024, who are the viable candidates for PotUS?
Then that is a profound failure of logic given my support for Haley.
I find it very odd that when I have told you numerous times of my support for Haley, you conclude "logically" that I am voting for Trump, yet when you tell me of your support for Haley, it magically is a 'failure of logic' on my part. Very odd.
That is true.
Personally, if I don't like either major candidate, I just won't vote for either of them.
I also don't think any vote is a waste.
Most certainly not Trump or Biden that's for sure. Still trying to decide on anyone else. Problem is I don't think there are any left running.
Flag on 6.2.7 was dismissed, addressed member responded to it directly below, shortly after it was posted. (note flag was not by member addressed).
I have no doubts that you are correct. Me thinks many here doth protest too much . . .
????
If member addressed responded to the comment it stays in play
This thread has been cleaned up for meta. Please take the meta into "Metafied"
While I agree on the problem, the word 'viable' in this context means 'realistically electable'. It is not intended to mean: 'good choice'.
Right now there are two viable candidates for the presidency. I am confident that these will be the only viable choices on election day (barring some disruptive event).
thanks for cleaning it up
Your criticism is almost exclusively of Biden — even on the chickenshit and invented partisan allegations. You will typically take a defensive position with regard to Trump. The legitimate opportunities to criticize Trump for his behavior are in abundance yet you are largely silent except to opine in defense or to deflect to Biden.
That profound disparity in your comments does not correlate well with your claim that you are not going to vote for Trump. So you can claim all you want, but your claims defy your comments. My hypothesis is thus well supported by the facts.
In my case, I criticize both Biden and Trump but since Trump is an order of magnitude worse, my criticisms reflect that. I have stated that neither should be nominees yet, miserably, both are. My comments consistently show a major disparity between Trump and Biden where Trump is demonstrably an order of magnitude worse for the nation. My voting intentions correlate exactly with that.
Sorry, but it can't be just one way.
You tried to play me as being illogical while espousing something ridiculously illogical.
Every conservative on here that says, now, that they are not going to vote for trump is going to vote for trump
For the most part, I agree. There are a few who I believe are true to their word. But that is because their comment history correlates with their claims.
That is false.
The great "Carnac the Magnificent" has spoken!/s
They never attack trump and always attack biden. What other evidence do we need?
Like those who only attack Trump but never Biden.
What the hell is it to you? It’s none of your business who anyone votes for.
Carson’s best routine.
If those who attack Trump but never Biden say they are voting for Biden, then that is logical.
In contrast, if someone attacks Biden almost exclusively and mostly defends Trump, then their claim to not vote for Trump fails the bullshit test.
That seems a bit without logical thinking. If they say they aren't, they aren't. Why is that so fucking hard for you to swallow? I voted for Haley in the primaries like I posted here I would. Sorry she didn't pull it off but, there is a long way to go and who knows?
Your bullshit test needs some serious fixing.
This whole thing has already been explained to you in detail but you choose to ignore it.
And you always attack Trump but never Geriatric Joe...................
Might want to adjust your critical thinking. Your bullshit test fails the bullshit test.
Well that is just the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. S/
Why do you think anyone would care enough of what you think that they would lie to you?
It is hard to get some folks to change their mind once it is made up. It would mean they were wrong.
I am using my power of reasoning to deduce what you all are going to do
that is the beginning and the end of it
Might consider recharging your power.
How persuasive ...
Do you believe everything that is stated? Especially when what is stated is contradicted by a long history of comments?
When Trump claims that the election was stolen, do you believe him because he said so?
The truth often is
A nuh'uh response.
Why do you think anyone would care enough of what you think that they would lie to you?
Nope, not even close.
Already explained it once, is it really necessary to do it all over again after the first time was ignored?
6.2.13
He needs to prove something to you?
Yep.
But you are voting for Biden, no?
That is because they are not equivalently bad
But both are bad. Period.
You say that as if it means something.
Going into debt is bad. Going to jail is bad. If you were arrested for a crime you did not commit would you take no action or would you choose between two bads: having to pay $$$ to a law firm to prove your innocence or going to jail?
Just because both are bad does NOT make them equivalent.
I never claimed they were equivalent--I clearly stated that they are both bad. Strawman argument.
Thus you recognize that Trump and Biden are not equally bad for the nation.
Since you can see they are not equally bad, you have no basis on which to criticize voters who vote for the least bad since one of these bad choices will be the next PotUS.
[deleted]
Is there any point to me commenting if you are going to tell me what I recognize?
I clearly stated this:
But both are bad. Period.
That seems very, very clear to me.
If it isn't clear to you, ask and I will try to clarify it further.
I won't get hung up on all that "My guy isn't as bad as that guy" bullshit in place of lucid arguments.
Your earlier post was nothing but a strawman argument, as I never claimed that they were equivalent, although you seemingly thought I did.
Skipping all the whining to focus on the point:
Since you acknowledge that Trump and Biden are not equally bad, you have no basis on which to criticize voters who vote for the least bad since one of these bad choices will be the next PotUS.
To wit, it is perfectly logical to take the least bad path. Your criticism of those who will vote to determine which of these two will be the next PotUS is unfounded.
Perhaps you could quote me where my statement of "But both are bad. Period." says something even close to criticism of anyone.
But we both know yours is nothing more than a weak straw man argument.
Instead of inventing things you wish I had said to argue about, how about a rational discussion of what I really DID say?
It is also perfectly logical to stand one's ground and vote for what you believe is the best choice, not necessarily the least bad.
You take note of his criticism of how others will vote while you criticism him. Reminds me of a line my mother once told me, those who live in glass houses should just stay quiet and ignore the other side.
Where did he say that. I see he never claimed that they were equally bad, he never claimed they were not equally bad. He did claim that they were both bad.
Excellent point!
Straw man arguments, completely ignoring what I did write.
[deleted]
Of course.
So you have a problem with me illustrating that his criticism of others is unfounded?
By your reasoning, you are criticizing me for being critical of Texan's argument. Anytime anyone disagrees and makes a supporting argument do you find that bad?
[deleted]
[deleted]
Once or twice, not a really big deal. When it continues on over and over it gets ridiculous. By continuing to reply doesn't mean you are winning (or losing) the argument. And it's obvious you are not changing minds.
Maybe it's time to walk away rather than continue to beat that horse.
do you have a steady stream supporting your pist argument?
What are you talking about?
Apparently you are unaware of how often this occurs because I often do just walk away. Just not always. There is no elegant way to deal with people who constantly engage in dishonest tactics. And I choose to not be silent and always allow this crap to continue unchallenged.
Now, that said, if you want to continue to criticize me for holding people accountable for their bullshit and entirely ignore the bullshit itself, that is your prerogative. I do not find such behavior to be credible, but that of course is just my opinion.
Apparently since all 91 counts against the former 'president' are flimsy.
Since you acknowledge that Trump and Biden are not equally bad, you have no basis on which to criticize voters who vote for the least bad since one of these bad choices will be the next PotUS.
To wit, it is perfectly logical to take the least bad path. Your criticism of those who will vote to determine which of these two will be the next PotUS is unfounded.
This ⇡ is not a strawman argument. It illustrates that it is entirely unfounded for you to criticize people for voting for the least bad of the available choices.
Now if you want to claim that you never do this, I can provide links.
[✘]
“Reminds me of a line my mother once told me, those who live in glass houses should just stay quiet and ignore the other side
.
Really, cause my mom told me to guzzle Windex and then shoot Kidney stones out my Ureatha Franklin my Deer, i d g a F, so now clean house like my spouse who just had a super fast modem slow down her modern fantasy wear she wore yellow ribbons cause she didn’t wish to win the blew 1on one whilst feel in green with The Giant all jolly and envious n such….
Fellows it really isn’t that tuff. Due ewe think know won sees the little game you guys play in an attempt to portray yourselves as getting one over on TiG by annoying him, with rookie word play, that you attempt to pass off as mysterious ambiguous contemplation, in attempts to , confuse and fool a nation, who should not need more to handle than the two they possess , witt feelings
This thread is locked at author's request for off topic.
Biden is smart and cares for his fellow humans.
Trump is stupid and hates everybody except himself.
Biden is a dullard and could care less for anyone who disagrees with him.. [deleted]
No, but nice projection anyway...
[deleted]
from the article
It's already like all the mental patients (MAGA (with the former 'president' as their leader of course) escaped all their respective asylums and are trying to get the fucked in the head former 'president' back into the White House and to be their dictator - that's what they want!
Reagan shut down mental institutions just so his base could vote. Trump reaps the benefits.
The number of mental institutions began declining in the 1950’s. Numerous social forces led to a move for deinstitutionalization; researchers generally give credit to six main factors: criticisms of public mental hospitals, incorporation of mind altering drugs in treatment, support from President Kennedy for federal policy changes, shifts to community-based care, changes in public perception, and individual states' desires to reduce costs from mental hospitals.
That's ridiculous.
ah shuck Ma, i just got here..,
and you shut all the fun down …,
oh well
[removed]
Democrats sure love their partisan douchebags who sign petitions. It’s amazing that there are still enough ignorant people who value these bullshit petitions that they get published and talked about.
More sleight of hand from our friends on the left in the hopes it will cover for uncle Joe’s very real mental and physical issues.
Sad!