No, the pro-life movement is not about controlling women
By: Dr. Michael Brown
The pro aborts constantly lie and try to slander the people and ideals of the pro life movement. In reality it is the pro life movement that is pro women, pro mother, pro family. The propaganda of the pro abortion militants is degrading of the women who are leaders of the pro life pro family movement. The American Family Association, Concerned women for America, and Alliance Defending Freedom often join with so many pro life movement organizations to defend life and encourage more to simply choose life.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
No, the pro-life movement is not about controlling women
According to a May 2019 article in the New Republic by Laurie Penny, “The goal of the wave of anti-abortion laws in America is to put female sexuality under strict and brutal state control.” More specifically, as the headline states boldly, “The Criminalization of Women’s Bodies Is All About Conservative Male Power.”
This is a common argument from the pro-abortion side: the pro-life movement is all about controlling women’s bodies and sexuality, especially male control.
Michael Brown holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a professor at a number of seminaries. He is the author of 25 books and hosts the nationally syndicated, daily talk radio show, the Line of Fire.
To quote Penny once more, since she repeats common pro-abortion talking points (albeit with a lot of passion and eloquence), “In a sadistic nationwide legislative binge against women’s basic reproductive rights, draconian new anti-abortion measures have also won wide margins of approval in Georgia, Ohio, and Missouri [in addition to Alabama]. This has been coming for a long time.
It’s all part of a strategic frontal assault on women’s right to choose, a deliberate ploy to overturn the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling upholding abortion access as a constitutional right in the United States. These laws are not about whether a fetus is a person. They are about enshrining maximalist control over the sexual autonomy of women as a foundational principle of conservative rule. They are about owning women. They are about women as things.”
The only problem with this argument is that it is entirely fallacious.
No truly pro-life leaders are trying to own women. (In point of fact, many of the most outspoken leaders are themselves women.)
And no truly pro-life leaders view women as things. To the contrary, they care about the needs of the mothers as well as the babies, which is why they are there to offer these women help and support when they choose life. Not only so, but pro-life leaders constantly speak out against gender-selective abortions, since those target female babies much more than male babies.
Indeed, writing for the Lozier Institute, Anna Higgins (yes, that’s a woman’s name) identified sex-selection abortion as “the real war on women.” As she said, “Those who claim to be concerned with women’s rights can no longer ignore the need to ban sex-selective abortion in order to protect girls from ‘gendercide.’”
As for the idea that the pro-life movement exists to enshrine “maximalist control over the sexual autonomy of women as a foundational principle of conservative rule,” this is a figment of the imagination of the pro-abortion movement.
The fact is that we who are pro-life are not telling a woman how to live.
We are not restricting her opportunities in the workplace. Or hindering her education. Or telling her how she must conduct herself in public or private.
We are not telling her who she can or cannot sleep with. Or whether she must be single or married or gay or straight or bi. Or if she can produce a salacious music video.
Those are her choices to make, and she will give account to God for those choices, not to us.
There’s only issue we have, and it is the very issue that Penny and her colleagues miss when she wrote “These laws are not about whether a fetus is a person.”
To the contrary, this is the one and only thing that these laws are about, as I emphasized in a recent article . It is all about the personhood of the baby in the womb.
As Lila Rose noted in a recent tweet (need I point that Lila is a woman too?), “I’m pregnant with our son, due in November.
“His body is *not* my body. I do not have the ‘right’ to kill him.
“No woman (or man) has the right to kill ANY child, even when that child is 100% physically dependent on them.
“Period.”
This is the heart (or, should I say “heartbeat”) of the matter, and no one can express this better than an expectant mother.
And this is why the pro-abortion camp cannot address this head on, instead, hiding behind a refuge of lies and misrepresentations (even if those pushing the misinformation believe it to be true).
And this is why more and more Americans now oppose abortions from the second trimester on: they recognize the humanity of the baby in the womb. In the famous words of Dr. Seuss’s Horton Hears a Who , “A person's a person, no matter how small.”
That and that alone is the crux of the issue, and the only “control” pro-lifers want to exert is the ability to stop an abortion provider from terminating the life of another person, no matter how small.
That’s the gospel truth.
Dr. Michael Brown ( www.askdrbrown.org ) is the host of the nationally syndicated Line of Fire radio program. He holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a professor at a number of seminaries. He is the author of 40 books.
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Well, the pro-life people lie and slander and call pro-choice, pro-abortion, which it is not.
People are either for abortion or for life.
p ro-life people lie and slander and call pro-choice, pro-abortion, which it is not.
Plenty more where those came from
Advocating to flood the country with semi-automatic weapons and mass murder high volume ammunition magazines is considered "pro-life" by the paranoid delusional.
Who is "for abortion?" Some people are for choice. One can be pro-choice and pro-life.
People are either pro-choice or pro female slavery.
No people are either for letting women decide what is right for them or having no choice at all.
Well, the first article I can't read and the second is from a group that is a fringe minority.
Those who are pro abortion constantly lie and try to slander those of us who share the hopes and ideals of the pro life movement. In reality it is the pro life movement that is pro women, pro mother, and pro family. The propaganda of the pro abortion militants is degrading of women who are leaders of the pro life, pro family movement. The American Family Association, Concerned women for America, and Alliance Defending Freedom often join with so many pro life movement organizations to defend life and encourage more to simply choose life.
[Deleted] they have to make the ridiculous claim it's about trying to control women, which is much more supportable. Good post. Dr, Brown is one of those common sense guys I like to read.
Great post. All of it is well said and right on! Thanks for your contribution to my seed.
Love will start a pregnancy.
True love can do that. It also assures that there will be no abortion. No one who truly has real love and human compassion would ever go and get an abortion. Sex without love is what most often leads to elimination of the baby.
What do you base that presumption on? You don't know the circumstance a woman might endure which causes her to contemplate or actually have an abortion.
You can make this argument, but you think the Covid vaccine is a tool to take away your freedom?
Good question. In my view the answer is, it depends. Every person in the military is an example of freedom being taken or limited. I got shots in the Army all the time. Seasonal flu, deployments and whatnot. I didn't mind, however, since I understood the purpose of them. My job was to do what was necessary to defend our country and I couldn't be ready for that at all times if I were getting sick all the time. In spite of my understanding the purpose, understanding was besides the point They were not optional. Now, one could claim I had the right (freedom) to refuse, but is it really a right when the results of exercising it are negative? But, I knew that going in. It's the Army, right? You are literally agreeing to give up rights that civilians have because it's necessary to perform the military's mission.
But civilians? Not in the same boat, or aren't supposed to be. Can the vaccine be a tool to take away freedoms? I tend to look to China for that answer. Mandating the vaccine alone will not make us China overnight, but in the wrong hands, it's another brick in the wall, so to speak. Another little piece of government control of the herd. One more justification for government mandates for some other thing, because it gets us used to it.
Of course, this doesn't even touch on the issue of someone else having the right to stick something into you against your will. That's a pretty hard one to justify and, those who don't think so are the one's I least want in charge of making such decisions. Because, where do they think that sort of thing stops?
I completely agree with you on this. Those are my concerns as well.
Based on this, I submit that you did not fully understand the purpose. You weren’t just vaccinated so that you could be ready at all times. You were vaccinated so that you and the other people in your unit could not infect each other. Vaccines for infectious diseases are never just about you. They are about everyone you might come in contact with.
Actually no one is - or has - proposed that. It’s always conditional and there is an option. For decades, we have required vaccination to attend schools. Don’t want the vaccine? Go to private school, or home school. Many employers have required vaccination as a condition of employment. Don’t want a vaccine? Get a different job. Today, the federal government is simply requiring a new vaccine.
Now - as in the past - you don’t have to get vaccinated. You have to get vaccinated or submit to regular testing - and even then only if you want to take part in activities that bring you into contact with the public.
Um, nope. Of course, there is the idea that vaccinations had the benefit of not infecting others but the bottom line was operational readiness. If you don't think that's the goal, you obviously were never in the military.
Yes, actually, they have proposed that. Everything you say after your initial sentence is evidence. You can say you have a choice but, really, when the choice is do what we want you to do or do something harder, like homeschool or come up with the money for private school, you're really just presenting a false choice for most people. Get a different job? Like that's the same as picking the color you want to pain your living room in, right? It's that simple?
C'mon, Tacos! I have seen hundreds of your posts. I know you know better. We're already seeing that vaccinations are no guarantee of anything.
All you anyone is doing with vaccinations is increasing their odds slightly. People who just follow the propaganda say that if we all would just get vaccinated then everything would get back to normal but anyone with any sense at all knows that's just crap.
If every singe person in the US got vaccinated on the same day, we'd still be right were we are now. The reason is that, to date, every version of Covid that has emerged to date has emerged outside the US. Right this instance, Covid is trying to mutate around the vaccination. This is because most of the world isn't being vaccinated. Nobody cares about "shithole countries." That's where the variants are coming from, not from the unvaccinated in this country. The whole, "the unvaccinated in the US is killing us all" is just political fodder to push agendas. Want to really make a difference? Insist that the US and every other developed country vaccinate the rest of the world. Stop the third world from generating variants. That's where the real danger is coming from.
I don’t know why you think you are contradicting what I wrote. The military does not just care about only you personally. Their concern is for everyone around you. I did not dispute that it’s about “readiness.” The military isn’t vaccinating people out of the goodness of their hearts.
So for the sake of readiness, which do you think they care most about? That just you remain healthy? Or that your whole unit remain healthy?
I didn’t invent the choice today. I described a real choice people have been making for generations. There is nothing unique about the Covid vaccines in this regard.
So what? When did anyone say there was a guarantee coming your way? For that matter, where are the guarantees for anything in your life? You’re applying an impossible standard. Cops are no guarantee that crime won’t happen. So should we get rid of cops? Seatbelts are no guarantee you won’t die in a car crash. So should we stop wearing seatbelts? Most vaccines aren’t 100% effective, though many come close. That’s not a reason to give up trying to vaccinate as many people as we can.
No we would not. That is 100% not true. I invite you to show me scientific data that allows you to make this claim that 100% vaccination would not have changed anything. Stop getting your science from Alex Jones.
Yes, and it does that much easier when it has free reign to infect people. It thrives - and therefore mutates - much better in unvaccinated people, who then spread it to far more people than a vaccinated person can.
That’s insane. What “agenda?” The only agenda is to save lives and get back to a normal kind of life by crushing this virus.
So it’s unreasonable to vaccinate Americans, but it’s ok to vaccinate people in other countries? What do you imagine is so special about those other countries? America leads the world in Covid deaths. Why don’t you want to save American lives?
I think you are contradicting what I wrote because you said I didn't fully understand the purpose. Let me remind you what you said.
For whatever reason you seemed to think I was speaking of my experience as if it was all about me personally rather than taking it as an example of the whole. Instead, you found it necessary to point out what I think should have been obvious. That what was true of me was true of everyone. That is, the military didn't inoculate Drakkonis so Drakkonis wouldn't infect the military, thus preventing a degraded readiness state, they inoculated everyone so that everyone wouldn't infect each other so readiness wouldn't be affected. I don't understand why you are splitting this hair.
I didn't say you invented it. I said it wasn't the simple problem you present it as.
Yes, people have been making this choice for generations, but that, in and of itself, doesn't mean much. It is not a justification for accepting every vaccine that comes along. If you claim otherwise you are essentially supporting a claim like "All vaccinations are safe because people have been taking them for decades." Knowing you, I'm assuming I don't need to explain why that's wrong.
And call me a conspiracy nut if you wish, but I have a hard time trusting anything the Left is pushing so hard. Politically, I see this as the Left seeing how much they can get away with. The reason I feel that way is that if you're concerned about Covid, get the shot. If you do, what does it matter to you if some backwoods troglodyte refuses to get vaccinated? The usual reply is Covid variants but that's ridiculous for reasons already stated.
I am applying no standard at all. You are, in fact, highlighting what I was talking about. The point I was making was the incorrect assumption that, if only everyone would just get vaccinated we'd all be just peachy, is totally wrong. The truth is, assuming the vaccine is effective for the strain it was created to combat, you increase your odds of not contracting the disease to some degree. Biden and the rest is pushing the false assumption that, if only everyone in the US would get vaccinated, we'd all be safe. That's a false assumption as long as the vast majority of the planet is not getting the vaccination. At this very moment, Covid is mutating in thousands of different ways in third world countries no one cares about, which may develop strains that render current vaccinations useless.
This is not an argument against us getting the vaccination. It is an argument against the currently politically pushed idea that getting the vaccination in the US is the answer. It isn't. The answer is to get the entire world vaccinated as fast as possible, but we aren't seeing that. Unless that happens, we are living in the past. We are fighting the enemy we knew when this first broke out, not the one's emerging right this minute.
Tacos! Please just take a moment, okay? I'm not saying no one should get the vaccine. I'm talking about truth, not propaganda. And I know who Alex Jones is but I can't honestly remember listening to a single podcast or whatever of him. I don't listen to Tucker Carlson or anyone like him, either. I don't pay much attention to any pundits because they all hyperbolize everything so much that it ends up being useless.
In spite of that, you can't seriously claim that what I'm saying is 100% untrue. It is historically provable that people who have been vaccinated have died from Covid. If anyone thinks they are safe if they get the vaccine then they don't understand the issue. My point is, and has been, that unless we make every effort to vaccinate the entire world, vaccine evading variants are the real threat, not the unvaccinated in the US.
As we speak, a lackadaisical effort to vaccinate the third world is underway. The way I see it, all we are doing with this half-hearted measure is providing Covid with samples of the vaccine so that it can work out a workaround. To date, every variant I know of has come from third world countries and it isn't too difficult to understand why.
See previous comment.
There's a saying. Never let a good crisis go to waste. Between the Left and the right, which wants to control you most?
(sigh) I really didn't expect this of you. Nothing I've said justifies what you are saying here. I have only pointed out the falsity of thinking that, if only everyone in the US would get vaccinated, we'd solve the problem. That isn't true. The real problem is the virus's ability to mutate around vaccination. That problem can only be significantly reduced if the entire world can be vaccinated as fast as possible. The only way vaccinating the entire US population could be maximally effective is to close our borders entirely to prevent mutations from reaching us. I don't, nor have I, say that vaccination is useless. I only point out that it's only a temporary measure of limited scope as long as variants are being produced in other places. Evidence? How many other vaccinations, mumps, measles or whatever, do you need a booster shot for? Covid? Six months after receiving the second shot they're already saying I need a booster.
So, getting back to the overall point, I don't blame people for not getting vaccinated. I don't really understand why it's an issue in the first place as, theoretically, only the unvaccinated suffer. I don't consider generating variants to be a valid argument because, considering the vaccination rates in this country, it is far, far more likely to come from outside, as has, to date, been shown.
That’s how you make medical decisions? A Democrat likes it therefore it’s dangerous? Do you know how insane that sounds? It’s a vaccine, not an economic plan. It wasn’t created by leftist ideology.
Do you not remember that Trump signed off on the funding for these vaccines? Do you not remember him being proud of that? Trump has been vaccinated himself. If this is how you make medical decisions, shouldn’t you be pushing the vaccine?
I didn’t say anything like that. I think the vaccines are safe because literally BILLIONS of doses have been administered and they have proven to be both safe and effective. The FDA has approved them. To claim they are dangerous is to deny reality.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have killed exactly zero people. Covid has killed over 4 1/2 million. How is this even a close contest for you? You would have to be a moron of the highest order to choose the vaccines as being more dangerous than Covid.
Plenty of vaccines require boosters. Hepatitis, Tetanus, Influenza, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Diphtheria, Pertussis, Varicella, Shingles, Chicken Pox, Meningitis all require boosters. I’m sure there are more. This has been going on for generations. Suddenly you want to make required boosters some kind of nefarious red flag?
I swear, this willful ignorance is insane, and it is killing more and more people every day.
Where in hell did you get that idea? no one has said “only” the unvaccinated suffer. And by the way, millions of those unvaccinated are children. Every day that the rest of us - 12 and older - go without being vaccinated, that makes it easier to spread to unvaccinated children. But you know, no biggie. Hurray, freedom!
This ignorance and selfishness is painful to watch. You deliberately don’t want to hear why vaccines are critical and you want to pretend they are more dangerous than a pandemic that has killed millions. Madness like this is why we need mandates.
WTF Drak? Are you for real with that? That is a profoundly ignorant statement! The unvaccinated are at higher risk and are the primary spreaders of the virus. But even the vaccinated can still contract Covid, especially with the variants, which the vaccines are not quite as effective against. And the virus isn't coming from the outside. It's already here in the country being spread among the population. The unvaccinated are probably the primary cause of variants emerging, as viruses have a habit of mutating into different strains. Every unvaccinated individual is a potential walking laboratory for a new variant. Current vaccinations are not enough to achieve herd immunity either. And yes, the unvaccinated are to blame! Plain and simple! It's made worse by those refusing to be vaccinated or properly utilize protective measures like masks and distancing.
Actually, it is true! If we achieved herd immunity, then the virus would have much less chance to infect others and possibly mutate. The virus mutates because the unvaccinated are getting infected. This is basic biology and virology. The real problem are those refusing to be vaccinated. And it's that willful stupidity and ignorance surrounding how viruses and vaccines work that necessitate the need for mandates!
No, of course not. What I am referring to is, given that the real threat isn't the millions of unvaccinated in America but, rather, the billions in other countries, I distrust why they are pushing it so hard. According to NPR, 53% of the US is vaccinated. So that means approximately 154 million unvaccinated. According to OurWorldinData.org, only about 41% of the world is vaccinated. Guess which 41%? In the same site, you can see a list of which countries and their vaccination rates. They list only 35 countries. It isn't hard to know why they don't bother with listing the rest.
To use an analogy, HMS Dreadnaught is what we're being convinced we need to build but right now Covid is doing its best to create a Yamato . It's possible that it could build it among the fewer than 170 million unvaccinated right here in the US but it is statistically much, much more likely to build it among the BILLIONS of unvaccinated in third world countries, where health care levels almost encourage it.
Given all that, I find it hard to trust a political party that ignores all that and, instead, tries to sell us on the idea that everything's going to be just peachy if we just get vaccinated. I would trust them a LOT more if their main thrust was to agitate for world vaccination among the nations WAY more than they are, as it seems any idiot should be able to figure out that is where the real threat is.
Great. If only this discussion was about whether the vaccine was safe or not.
I find it astonishing, then, how unaware people are of this "fact". Things like Tetanus and influenza, sure. The rest? Who have you ever met in your life who got boosters for such? I haven't, nor am I aware of anyone who is aware there are even such a thing as boosters for such.
So is smoking, driving cars, owning guns, eating the wrong foods, suicide and a host of other causes. If a person chooses not to get vaccinated, what is that to you if you are vaccinated? How far are you willing to go to impose regulations on citizens to prevent death? It's without question that if we outlawed personally owned vehicles and, instead, mandated public transportation, there would be a lot fewer deaths. If we mandated the elimination of junk food, same thing. The question is, were does your ability or right to mandate what others do or don't do begin and end?
Uh, yeah, I did. That's where I got the idea. Theoretically, only the unvaccinated suffer. That's meta, of course. People who got vaccinated are also dying, but that just adds to my argument.
Yeah, like the universe is fair, right? It isn't that I'm being flippant or uncaring, but for freaks sake, Tacos!, nothing is perfect. And, yeah, hurray, freedom. Ask a lot of the Chinese citizens about that. Or is that what you want? Hand over your freedom to an organization for their promise of safety?
Complete horseshit. I'm a believer in vaccines. If I were not I wouldn't have gotten my Covid vaccine. Well, that isn't strictly true. I didn't know if it was effective or not at the time I got it. I figured, someone has to be the Guinea Pig so why not me? So, totally selfish, right?
In any case, you refuse to accept my point. I don't say you don't understand it because I've seen enough of your comments to know you're savvy enough to get it. You're just refusing to acknowledge it for some reason. That is, everyone getting the vaccine in the US is not the panacea everyone thinks it is. The variants, all of which have come from third world countries proves it.
Absolutely nothing I've said has meant that people here in the US shouldn't get the shot or that it doesn't matter. Rather, what I have said is been to shed light on the real issue. Almost 60% of the world remains unvaccinated and little hope that will change. That is where the variants are coming from. That is what we should be afraid of. There are BILLIONS of culture dishes for Covid to play with and no one is doing anything about it. Instead, they are selling the false idea that if only we'd all just get vaccinated, problem solved. It is a political objective Biden is pushing so that he can be seen as an effective leader. I would be more impressed if he were trying to lead the rest of the world in vaccinating as much of the third world as possible.
But, hey, don't let me get in the way of you having your righteous tiff. Keep on making it about being anti vaccination if you want to. I expected more from you but whatever.
Sorry Drakkonis but you are wrong, just wrong.
Have you tried to use a hospital lately?
God forbid you or someone you love has an infarction
and
IF
the ambulance gets you to a hospital
will you be kept in the ER for hours or days waiting for a non COVID bed to become available?
Will your team of doctors and nurses and techs be well rested
and be able to give you the best care possible?
No the unvaccinated aren't just injuring themselves physically.
They are testing the limits of the healthcare system, the insurance industry
and their own family planning physically and financially.t
These asshats like uninsured Caleb Wallace occupied an ICU bed on a ventilator for 21 days
at the expense of everyone else. He is survived by a wife, 3 daughters and a fourth daughter
due this month.
They don't just hurt themselves.
a family member does IT infrastructure upgrades in hospitals. they're scrambling right now to keep on schedule in one hospital, since the 3 usually semi-vacant wards they were supposed to work in are now filled with pediatric covid cases. that hospital is in a vax resistant state. aka: a mental state...
Doctors and nurses (not to mention EMTs) have quit due to the stress and overwhelming number of Covid patients during the pandemic. Others (non-covid cases) are not able to get appropriate care in a timely manner. Hospitals are over capacity. Staff are overworked, resources are spread thin. And all because people refuse to be vaccinated or utilize proper precautions.
Aka: a stupid state.
Oh and I forgot to mention the O2 shortages in both ambulance services and at the hospitals
Good luck
The dentist from whom I bought my practice has a son-in-law who is 49. He is unfortunately in pretty poor health for his age, and recently had a heart attack. It was not his first. When he started feeling bad, he went straight to the ER, but they didn't want to admit him, because they had over a third of their beds full of Covid patients, and 51 of those (all unvaccinated) were on ventilators. They didn't really have the ICU capacity to take a severely ill cardiac patient.
They referred him to the cath lab for a stress test, and he had a heart attack there. He had a bypass right then.
Due to beds being taken up by Covid patients, he was nearly sent home, and he would have died. At 49.
If I could post his daughter's TikTok video, I would.
It is absolutely NOT only the unvaccinated being harmed.
People don't seem to understand that. That's not even considering the cost of healthcare and resource shortages hospitals face as a result.
Yeah, but even so, you're much more likely to die from a car accident than dying from Covid while vaccinated.
Agreed. That sort of is a negative on the vaccine, though. That should not be taken as meaning I think getting the vaccine is pointless. If I thought so, I wouldn't have gotten the vaccine.
I'm sure you are trying to say something other than what this quote literally means. For what you said to be true, Covid, regardless of variants, would have had to have originated here. It didn't. Covid came from outside, as did every variant. So I'm not sure what you mean here. Clarification would be appreciated.
I totally agree. My point is that a few million here in the US are statistically much less likely to create a vaccine evading variant than the BILLIONS of unvaccinated in the Third World no one is doing much about. To date, every variant can be traced back to the third world.
Again, agreed. What my point has been all along is the pervasive idea that, if only everyone would get the vaccine, our problems would be over. That simply isn't true and grossly unethical, in my opinion. There are BILLIONS of laboratories out there that no one is doing anything about. What makes it worse is that their basic standard of medical ability and hygiene is next door to non-existent. That's why you see so many infectious diseases coming from such places. It's as if they are designed to produce them.
I think people should get the vaccination. Enough time has gone by to show that people aren't going to die from it or turn into brain eating zombies. So stop with the anti-vaccer crap. My point is that we aren't addressing the real issue. I'm sure you've heard about why antibiotics are becoming less effective. My belief is, that unless we address the vaccination of the entire world, just vaccinating a small part of it is pissing in the wind. Sure, you may have inoculated some against a specific threat, but that's it. What about the rest of what emerges from all the BILLIONS of other petri dishes out there?
Again, I agree. Where we don't agree is where the problem is coming from. Not one single instance of a variant has originated in this country, nor any other first world country. They all come from third world countries. Why are my words not understandable to you? You constantly tout objective evidence. Well, here's objective evidence. The threat is coming from outside. Why? Maybe because, as imperfect as our implementation of the vaccine is, it's lightyears better than what is going on in third world countries. You know, where most of the viral threats come from???
Perfect. A perfect example of what I'm talking about. You speak as if the US is the entirety of the world. News flash! It isn't. All the variants we are experiencing, every single one of them, come from outside. That isn't to say that it can't happen here but, statistically, the data shows that the threat is greater outside the US than in it. I want people to wake up to that fact. Instead, you guys go on and on about this being some sort of anti-vaccer crap. Wake the hell up!
Thanks for the unnecessary biology lesson. Now, figure out the world doesn't consist solely of the US. You and I are vaccinated. Do you think you are safe from Covid? I don't. The reason is that I understand that the vaccine was intended for a specific iteration of the virus. I understand that mutations in the virus could render the vaccination of that vaccine ineffective. I also understand that such mutations are more likely, as data has empirically proven, to come from outside no matter what we do here. It's that simple.
Covid, like all viruses, is a mindless thing. It could mutate into a human world apocalyptic event depicted in so many movies or it could mutate itself out of the ability to infect humans in a harmful manner. The latter is more likely if we could manage to vaccinate as many as possible. But for that to work it has to be everyone. All of humanity. Leaving nearly 60% of humanity unvaccinated isn't going to do a damn thing and that's my point
But by all means, continue with your anti-vaccer crap.
Concerning what, specifically? That every variant, Covid itself comes from outside?
Not myself, no. My mother did, however. She was seen immediately and was admitted for two days for congestive heart failure. That sounds like she had a heart attack but that isn't what happened. It's just what the medical people called it. She was definitely in danger, but it was for the potential, not the actual thing.
I went to the emergency room for suspected Covid and waited in the lobby for six hours. Same as every other time in my life.
As for the rest of your comments, they aren't relevant to my argument. I suspect it is because I'm not simply quoting the other sheep. That getting the vaccine will solve our problems and open the economy. The reality is, I'm for vaccinations. I just don't ascribe to the idea that things are going to be peachy if every American gets one.
Things are never peachy, but they can get worse. Much worse.
Glad to here your family got the care it needed.
TYFYS also.
My county reported 5 deaths and 2200 people testing positive at area hospitals just today.
Who says that is a given? You? Common sense should tell you that the people you run into in the supermarket are a more immediate threat than someone on another continent. Sensible people protect themselves and others from that threat by getting vaccinated.
That part of it was. Scroll up and reread. I was responding to a comment you made about safety.
For Pete’s sake, it’s got nothing to do with Democrats. Democrats didn’t invent the virus. Democrats didn’t develop the vaccine. Democrats also didn’t invent the concept of a vaccine. How the hell is this political? I’ll tell you: It’s not. It’s a simple matter of the science of infectious diseases. There are more important things at stake than political parties.
Here, look at this story (or just read the headline):
A growing number of Republicans urge people to get vaccinated as COVID-19 cases climb
Republicans are encouraging people to get vaccinated. If you don’t trust Democrats, could you at least trust Republicans? Donald Trump told a crowd the other day to get vaccinated and those morons booed him. Unbefuckinlievable!
Lots of people. Is it so hard to believe?
Then your knowledge and experience are very limited on this point. Open your mind to experiences and knowledge beyond your own.
What Are Booster Shots?
Hope that helps.
There is no such theory. It’s something you just made up. You even admitted that you made it up.
Like the military? Like police? Yes, please.
Which organization is taking my freedom?
Then your hypocrisy is even more dramatic. Or get some sense and encourage people to get vaccinated. Stop endorsing irrational resistance.
If he can do a thing that we need done, then he is an effective leader. Are you seriously so partisan that you would rather see more people die than a Democrat get props for doing a good thing?
Is that supposed to be some kind of rationalization?
Not really. No vaccine is 100% effective. Any vaccine can protect one from a virus. But other factors come into play such as overall health, nutrition, and viral load. But getting a vaccine is a good way to put the odds in one's favor.
Covid is here now and has been for almost 2 years. That's almost 2 years of people being walking laboratories for variants to emerge and/or infect others. Whether it originated here or not is irrelevant. It's here now and vaccines are necessary to get a handle on it.
There's little we can do about 3rd world countries. The problem lies with the millions here who are not or refuse to be vaccinated. That we can do something about.
Do you understand the concept of 'herd immunity?'
On that we agree.
Tell that to the anti-vaccers. They're the problem.
Which is?
Antibiotics is not used and is ineffective for viral infections.
It's not if it's our part we're vaccinating.
Vaccines are designed to combat a specific virus or a few closely related strains.
As long as they're out there and not in here!
It doesn't matter where it came from. The problem is here now and it must be dealt with. Worrying about where it came from is just a distraction from the current ongoing problem here.
Because it's irrelevant to what's already going on here. The virus and its variants are already here.
No, I speak of the US population. Other countries are trying to vaccinate or get the pandemic under control too. But we need to focus on our own population.
I am 90-95% safer.
The current vaccine is relatively effective against variants too. But not as effective as against the 'original' virus.
What we do here can help mitigate the effects of what comes from outside and even from within.
Spare me the melodrama. It's not like the entirety of the world's population travels here. We're dealing with the problem just as the rest of the world is. You make it sound like we're the only ones doing anything.
Are you stating that I'm anti-vaccer? Because based on your post, you lean more towards an anti-vaccer attitude, with a "the rest of the world causes it, so why bother" vibe.
Only slightly ? What is your source for this?
Here is an example from the CDC regarding effectiveness. Are you suggesting this entire study is an outlier?
Now to your repeated point, of course the chances are that an effective variant will more likely come from outside the USA. But so far the vaccines have proved effective (albeit not 100%). Thus everyone should get vaccinated.
You know what? Forget I said anything. Just keep pushing the "if we all just get vaccinated then we'll all be just fine" meme. Have a nice life.
My comment made no such claim. I stated that vaccines have proved to be effective so it makes sense for everyone to get vaccinated.
If everyone was vaccinated we would (with the current variants) have relatively few sicknesses and deaths and our medical facilities would largely return to normal. Infections are less severe and more quickly ended in vaccinated people so we reduce our own (USA) contribution to producing and propagating new variants.
And of course, if a new variant emerges (as noted, typically outside of the USA) that is invulnerable to our vaccine triggered antibodies then we are back at square zero.
I have offered facts; which of these facts are wrong?
You know, TiG, I figured if anyone could understand what I've been saying it surely would be you but apparently not. Rather, you all go on and on as if this were some sort of anti-vaccination discussion. You offer facts that have nothing to do with the discussion and then pat yourself on the back for being reasonable. It's so disappointing to see in someone who defends evolution at the drop of a hat. Every single moment Covid is trying to evolve into a variant for which the current vaccination is useless in billions of laboratories in third world countries. This is the real threat to all of us, not the few millions of unvaccinated in this country. Saying so doesn't mean people therefore shouldn't get the vaccine. I've said multiple times people should. I've simply pointed out what the true threat is.
Okay, I was wrong. I was thinking of a specific thing when I wrote that. Basically, you can still get Covid and spread it to others, even if you yourself don't get noticeably sick. At least, that is what the news leads me to believe. As I understand it, it's why we are supposed to still wear masks, even though we're vaccinated. This is what I was thinking when I made that statement.
I AM GOING TO DO THIS IN ALL CAPS SO MAYBE YOU ALL CAN HEAR ME BETTER. I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED. I DON'T THINK GETTING THE VACCINATION IS TOTALLY POINTLESS. MY POINT IS AND HAS BEEN THAT THE GOAL OF GETTING ALL OF THE UNITED STATES VACCINATED DOESN'T ADDRESS THE TRUE THREAT AND LEFT UNADRESSED, MAY MAKE GETTING THE VACCINE POINTLESS. THAT THREAT IS THE 60% OF THE WORLD POPULATION THAT ISN'T VACCINATED AND HAS NO SERIOUS HOPE OF BEING VACCINATED BY THOSE ENTITIES THAT SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT IT. IT IS AS IF THIS COUNTRY THINKS WE NEED TO FIX A DAM THAT BROKE BUT IGNORES THE 600 FOOT TSUNAMI HEADING FOR OUR SHORES. "IF WE CAN JUST FIX THE DAM," THEY THINK, "WE'D ALL BE SAFE." WELL, THE DAM DOES NEED TO BE FIXED, BUT SOMEBODY SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE POSSIBLY APPROACHING TSUNAMI, AS IT IS THE BIGGER THREAT.
SO, ONCE AGAIN....
I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.
I AM MOST DEFINITELY ADVOCATING FOR SPENDING LESS TIME BEING WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING A BANDAID ON A MINOR CUT WHEN THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE ARTERIAL BLEEDING ELSEWHERE ON THE BODY. THE CURRENT UNVACCINATED PERCENTAGE OF THE WORLD TOTAL IN THE U.S. IS 3.5%. LET ME RESTATE THAT. OF THE ESTIMATED 4,800,000,000 UNVACCINATED PEOPLE ON THE PLANET, THE U.S. SHARE OF THAT IS APPROXIMATETLY 3.5%, OR ABOUT 170,000,000. POINTING THIS OUT DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T NEED TO ADDRESS THE MINOR CUT. IT IS POINTING OUT THAT ADDRESSING THE MINOR CUT IS POINTLESS UNLESS WE ALSO ADDRESS THE ARTERIAL BLEEDING ELSEWHERE ON THE BODY.
So, please stop with the "We need to vaccinate everyone in the US" crap. I'm not anti vaccination. If anything, I'm the opposite of that. What pisses me off about all of this is that it's treated as if only everyone would get vaccinated in the US we could solve the Covid problem. Utter bullshit. You all keep going on and on about why it's necessary for everyone in America to get vaccinated and it's all true, and all pointless unless we apply those reasons to the entire planet. What effing use is it to achieve a 100% vaccination rate here in the US when no one is doing anything serious about vaccinating the rest of the billions of laboratories out there potentially creating vaccine defeating variants? The piecemeal way we are putting out the vaccine to third world countries amounts to nothing more that providing Covid samples to work with. You're all just sticking your head in the sand over this.
Perhaps you aren’t aware of this, but the United States isn’t the only place people are being vaccinated. You want the rest of the world vaccinated? We’re working on it!
As of today, 5.73 BILLION vaccine doses have been administered worldwide. 2.36 BILLION people are fully vaccinated. Unfortunately, that’s only about 30% of the global population, but to say the rest of the world is being ignored is just flat out wrong.
Let’s discuss variants for a moment. The virus can evolve anywhere. There is nothing special about South Africa or Italy or Brazil or Pakistan or any place else in the world where variants have developed. Brown people or poor people or non-English speakers - or whatever else you think makes these other people unique - are no better at evolving the virus than anyone else.
Evolution of the virus is random, but a little common sense should tell you that evolution is most likely where the most infections are happening because there is more opportunity for mutation. And where is that? The United States.
Consider also what others have said about the source of variation being irrelevant - which it is. Hypothetically: Let’s say you have a very hungry, very aggressive, man-eating lion (named Covid) in your living room. The lion evolved in Africa. Does it make sense to send all your rifles to Africa? Or should you grab the nearest available weapon and shoot the lion that’s in front of you - and as fast as you can?
Um, no. Math would say it's a given.
Tacos!, I have to say you're one of the few people on this site I respect. But this is just disappointing. Dems would politicize paper clips if they could figure out a way to do it. Right now, they are pushing vaccination. Not because they give a damn about you or I but because they feel it will make them seem effective. Vaccination is a no-brainer. They see it as an easy win and a tool against their enemy. If the Dems, or Reps for that matter, gave a damn, they'd be pushing for some sort of leadership in vaccinating the rest of the world. Neither are. Instead, they simply play to their political base rather than what's necessary. What's necessary is leadership on the world stage concerning the vaccination of the planet.
I simply give up. If, at this point, you're still convinced that my point is in some way anti vaccine, I don't know how I could say something, reword it, so that you understand that it's not.
It doesn't. I consider it as adding to what I'm saying. We are arguably the most advanced country on the planet, medically. Even so, we need a booster shot to the vaccine. That would not be a problem if the world consisted of the US alone. It doesn't. Approximately 60% of the planet hasn't even received a single dose of vaccine, let alone the potential for a booster. Maybe I'm just stupid but what that means to me is that, while I may feel all warm and fuzzy about getting the booster to the vaccine for the iteration of Covid it was designed to defeat, there may be someone out there, billions, in fact, who may be the petri dish for a variant that makes it all moot. This is the point. I don't understand why this isn't clear to you.
Um, no. I didn't make it up. I called it meta, assuming this is what you are referring to. That means I'm not speaking about specifics but, rather, overall trends.
What hypocrisy, exactly? Where have I said getting the vaccine is pointless or wrong? Where have I stated a resistance to getting vaccinated? What I have stated, what my point has been all along, is that unless we apply the necessity for vaccination to the entire world and work to make it happen, then simply concerning ourselves with vaccinating the US is most likely pointless. My argument for saying so is that right now, billions of unvaccinated people on the planet are providing Covid fertile ground for producing variants, one of of which may render our current vaccine useless. The only way to prevent that, or at least measurably reduce the risk, is a coordinated and serious effort by first world countries to vaccinate the third.
Except he isn't doing a thing that needs to be done. That's the whole point. He is selling the idea that, if only everyone would get vaccinated here in the US everything would be just fine. That is so not true. Every single variant has come from third world countries. To my mind, an effective leader would be pushing the need to inoculate the third world as fast as possible. Know any world leaders doing that? That's where the real threat is coming from.
All of you go on and on about how the unvaccinated here in the US is killing us all but they are a tiny fraction of the unvaccinated. To be clear, the unvaccinated in this country are a problem. I don't deny that. But what needs to be understood is that what threat they pose is from variants coming from outside. You are all focusing on a few and ignoring the many. Consider antibiotics. They are becoming less effective as time goes on. I'll assume you know why. That's the way I view Covid. The completely imaginary goal of defeating Covid through 100% vaccination rates in the US is a lie. It's completely untrue. That isn't an argument for not getting the vaccine. It is an argument that it isn't nearly enough. For the vaccine to be effective, it needs to be world wide and as fast as humanly possible.
But, by all means, continue as you have. Make this about being anti vaccine. I'm totally mystified that what I am saying is meeting so much resistance. I see it as you guys simply not understanding the obvious, but maybe I'm the problem. Maybe it's me that can't see the obvious. If so, maybe one of you will eventually say something meaningful that will make me see it. So far, it hasn't happened.
Yeah, but paper clips are still useful, right? Would you stop using paper clips just because Joe Biden said they were handy?
Yeah well, right this minute, they control the government, so they are in a position to push it, and they should be. When Trump was president, he pushed it. Was that wrong of him?
But that would be effective. You claim you aren’t anti-vax, but you’re mad that Democrats are pushing a vaccine? That makes no sense unless you care more about partisanship than human lives.
I’ll remind you again that we share a common enemy - Covid. It should not be a political issue. Both Democrats and Republicans have been encouraging people to get vaccinated.
Yes it would. We are - by far - the biggest spreaders of the virus. The vaccine technology is really awesome, but apparently antibodies decline after a few months so we need a booster. It’s really not weird. Some vaccines give solid protection for many years. Others don’t work as long. There is no one single rule for this kind of thing.
You have said over and over that we should be pushing the vaccine on other countries instead of America.
We aren’t only concerning ourselves with America. However, the US has more cases than anyone else. We insist on resisting basic rules that inhibit the spread of the virus. It is best for our country and the world to attack this virus at home. We are donating vaccines to other countries, but I promise you if we sent all our vaccines overseas instead of vaccinating Americans, that would be wildly unpopular. There is no reason we shouldn’t take care of our own people first as much as possible.
Yes, and billions of people around the world are being vaccinated as we speak. But the country that is the most fertile ground for mutation is the United States. No one has had many cases as we have.
You know who had the most new cases in the world yesterday? The United States. And the day before, and the day before that, going back a month or two. More new case means more chances for mutations. Americans are relentless unbridled spreaders of Covid. If any country on the planet needs to be fully vaccinated before all the others, it’s the United States.
Nice. Almost two years after the first case and we have only 30% vaccinated. What percentage of that 30% do you think represents the first world? So, is my claim the "rest of the world" is being ignored actually wrong?
More importantly, how does this information detract from my assertion that vaccinations are likely pointless unless we vaccinate everyone? That is, what's the likelihood of just 30% of the population being vaccinated being safe when the 70% of unvaccinated are petri dishes for Covid creating a variant that defeats the vaccine the 30% rely on? Mathematically, the odds don't look good.
Boringly, you keep on making this about being anti vaccine when my point is that we aren't doing it nearly enough.
You're making a political point, not a scientific one. To date, every single variant has come from third world countries. Theoretically, you're correct. Empirically, you're wrong.
Nice, but untrue. You can get statistics to say whatever you need them to say. Yours makes it seem as if the US is the hotbed of Covid. It's not. Search covid by per capita and you come up with this . The US doesn't even make the list.
And I find it depressing that you can state " but a little common sense should tell you that evolution is most likely where the most infections are happening " but apparently ignore the indisputable fact that every variant has come from outside. It's as if you need for us to be responsible for it all.
Again, it's as if you have some emotional need for this to be all about the US. The source being irrelevant? That would be laughable if it weren't so utterly insane. You are stating that source doesn't matter, only ideology. I would love to see you discuss your views with those who work so hard to find patient zero. And your analogy is bad. Covid isn't a lion in every living room, it is a lion in every community.
And, once again, my argument isn't against vaccines or the need for it. My argument is that we may be pissing in the wind unless we inoculate everyone on the planet, or a close to that as we can.
Irony.
(sigh)
I don't object to their pushing it. I object the reason they do so. I would feel the same way if it was Republicans. You may be of the opinion that it doesn't matter as long as the right thing gets done. All I can say is that it matters to me. That sort of philosophy is how tyranny takes root.
I am "mad" because I see what the Dems, or if it had been the the Repubs, as simply a tool to achieve their larger purpose.
We shared a common enemy with Soviet Russia.
This is too ludicrous to respond to. It isn't even mathematically possible. Just look at India.
No, I haven't. I have stated that what we are doing is most likely pissing in the wind unless we address the third world problem, from which it is empirically evident variations to Covid come from. There is nothing about such a view that states we shouldn't be concerned with vaccination in this country.
According to what? India has almost certainly more infections than the US, the second most populous country, the US being third. Go ahead and present me with a website that shows different. All I will tell you is that anyone with common sense and a basic knowledge of India knows that India is underreporting. More to the point, your claim relies on overall numbers. Since the US is the third largest country in the world, population wise, it isn't hard to claim we have a higher infection rate than, say, Zimbabwe. However, when you look at the per capita rates, the US doesn't even make the top ten .
Source? Because I'd list it as in the thousands, not billions.
Correction. We reported the most new cases.
Considering the inarguable history of politics, why do you think we did so? Out of a humanitarian sense of truth or because it was politically convenient for someone's purpose? Call me cynical, but experience has made me so.
Really? I didn't know that! I guess my point that a measly 3.5% of the world's total population of unvaccinated is moot, then. Obviously that 3.5%, if inoculated, will take care of the 96.5% of the rest of the unvaccinated.
This is, without a doubt, the stupidest thing you've ever said. Seriously. It is the sort of thing I'd expect Tessylo to say. I can only hope you intended this as hyperbole.
Ok Let’s.
Happy to.
According to the World Health Organization , the United States has had over 40 million cases with 653,000 deaths. Meanwhile, India has had ”only” 33 million cases with 442 thousand deaths. And they have four times our population.
As for vaccines, the United States has administered almost 380 million doses, but India has administered almost 700 million - nearly twice as many. If you’re the looking for the elephant in the room, in ain’t Indian. It’s American.
Did you not read this in my reply to you?:
Now does that not connote that the threat for new effective variants emerging is greater outside of the USA than inside the USA? Does that suggest that if we are all vaccinated that all of our problems go away?
Now, on my 2nd reply to you:
I wrote this specifically to acknowledge your point. Drakk, all you had to do was read what I wrote.
But I did not go on and on. I was quite brief. It just turns out that the best action we can take at this point is to get everyone vaccinated. So I stated that.
Good. But you really should have attributed only what I wrote to me. You seem to project what they wrote (or how you interpreted what they wrote) onto me. That is obviously both unfair and problematic.
And I presume that you recognize, with your point acknowledged, that the best action we can take as a nation is to get everyone vaccinated. So far the variants (alpha through mu) have not nullified our vaccines. In the future, that might occur but the results thus far are encouraging. And even though the variants have emerged outside of our borders, a new variant still could emerge here in the USA. So, regardless of origin, we have the same basic options:
And yes, even if everyone took every precaution, we still have the possibility of a new disruptive variant setting us back to square zero. True. But that is beyond our control. So, reasonably, we do what is within our control and hope for the best in the areas that we cannot control.
( By the way, the known variants are only the most common variants recognized. We are producing variants here in the USA. That is the nature of biology. It is just that, thus far, none of our many variants have taken hold to the point of appearing on our radars. Thus, to help mitigate the spread of infections and variants of the virus we remain left with the options enumerated. )
Bottom line, of course our problems with coronavirus do not disappear if everyone in the USA is vaccinated. But that would put us in a substantially better position. And remember that it is quite possible that we never see an effective variant that defeats our vaccines. So even though the threat exists, we as a nation will be in a far better position to get back into some normalcy.
Are you claiming India has captured and reported anywhere near the percentage of cases or deaths the US has?
How do you imagine that as of July 67% of Indians (about a billion people) have covid antibodies, at a time only 8% had received two doses of a vaccine. Yet India reports 33 million cases.
Getting vaccinated is not pissing in the wind even assuming the balance of the world remains unvaccinated. See, this is why I noted that even though your point regarding the origin and ongoing source of variants is valid, that vaccinations are important. Your point, without the qualification I added, would indeed be an argument against vaccinations. So I am suggesting that you be careful with how you phrase your point lest people see you as an anti-vaxxer.
Um, yeah. Think about that. A country with four times our population and not nearly the level of health care we have is reporting less cases. Call me contrarian, but that's simply absurd.
You know what? I'm done with trying to convince you guys of the real threat. By all means, continue as if my argument is that vaccinations in this country is pointless. Continue to act as if vaccinations in this country will effectively neutralize the threat from outside. Continue to pretend what I am saying is anti vaccination.
Yes, it is. Do you not understand what variants are, how they come about or what they may mean concerning the specific strain the vaccination was designed to combat? For goodness sakes, TiG, how hard is it to understand? Assuming the news media is reporting anything like the truth, we are constantly bombarded with this fact. The vaccination may not be effective, or not as effective, against strains of Covid it wasn't designed to combat.
Only an idiot would think that vaccination is about the individual. Get it and you're going to be safe. The reality is that for the vaccine to matter significantly, it has to be administered as widely as possible as fast as possible. That isn't happening. As I have repeatedly stated, vaccination efforts in this country only matters if we close our borders entirely. Turn ourselves into Fortress America, in other words. Unless we do that, it doesn't matter if we achieve 100% on vaccination, as variants will come in and render the vaccine anywhere from somewhat ineffective to totally ineffective, depending on the variant.
Do you understand what I am saying? It doesn't seem as if you do. Rather, it seems as if you are focusing on 10% of the problem and ignoring the other 90%.
Well it is clear why we have had problems in the past. Twice now I have stated that your point of the source of new variants have come from outside of our borders and that it is logical to presume new variants will also most likely come from outside of our borders.
Now, I have stated it three times.
How is it that you refuse to acknowledge my agreement with your point and instead twist my comment into: 'vaccinations in the USA will effectively neutralize the threat from outside'?
Clearly, Drakk, the problem lies with you.
That is a classic case of pissing in the wind. Yes, it's true. It's possible that a variant capable of totally bypassing the vaccine won't emerge, but that isn't the point of vaccination, is it? The point of vaccination is to prevent the opportunity for such a development in the first place. On the personal level, people think of the vaccine as a solution to their personal problem of infection, but that isn't the point at all, else why the political glustergrope over the issue? No, the real purpose of the vaccine is, or should be, the prevention of not only the original strain but to limit to the extent possible, variants.
Really? Then why are you arguing with me? What is the basis of your argument? What is it that I have said that you find it necessary to contradict?
Now you are being insulting. What facts in my comments are incorrect? What on Earth would lead a rational mind to hold that I do not understand the nature of variants and that a new variant could emerge that would nullify our vaccinations. Really, Drakk, after all you certainly should have read this from me:
Now how could you possibly write what you did given what I just quoted?
As noted, clearly the problem is with you since you cannot seem to acknowledge agreement on your key points.
For my last two posts the basis of my argument is that you fail to acknowledge agreement and act as though I have disagreed with you on your key point.
Apparently you are not even bothering to read what I am writing.
Well we exist in the real world and human beings are not smart enough (yet) to devise a vaccine that can cause our immune system to develop antibodies for every possible future effective variant of the coronavirus.
In the real world, we have a vaccine that seems to be doing rather well against the known variants. And, repeating myself, while a new variant could indeed emerge that is immune to the created antibodies, the vaccine does do what it was intended to do and more (given it offers a degree of protection against known variants).
Also, it is possible that we will never see an effective variant that can bypass our antibodies. You need to recognize that possibility too.
Look, I am tired of trying to convince you that I have been acknowledging your point as valid. Given how difficult is has been to agree with you, it is no wonder that others in this seed are engaging you in debate. And it is no wonder that they are taking your collective arguments as anti-vax.
It’s not my claim. The numbers are published by the World Health Organization and the link is in the text of my comment. If you don’t like their reporting, you can take it up with them or give us a rational reason why we should disregard it. But just putting your head in your hands and chanting “I won’t believe it” isn’t very rational.
If you want to make counter claims, I suggest you link to evidence, as I did.
I’ll tell you what I told Sean.
The numbers are published by the World Health Organization and the link is in the text of my comment. If you don’t like their reporting, you can take it up with them or give us a rational reason why we should disregard it. But just putting your head in your hands and chanting “I won’t believe it” isn’t very rational.
If you want to make counter claims, I suggest you link to evidence, as I did.
I will also remind you that you asked me to support my point of view with a link. I did that. And it’s not some absurd, off the wall lunatic fringe site. It’s the globally recognized authority on this kind of thing.
By the way, a very specific answer to your question is what I wrote in my first reply to you:
I objected to your implication that the vaccine is largely ineffective against variants and is only providing a slight protection against the general threat of coronavirus.
And look, in that very same comment at the end I close with:
Right there, upfront, first comment, I state agreement with your foundational point.
First, just use a little common sense. Do you imagine we live in a world where every country has the same level of public health services and access to covid testing? Because if your claim is to reflect reality, that's the argument you have to make. If, you apply a little common sense, you'd undsterstand the reporting of covid cases is dependent on a country's ability to capture actual covid cases, and not all countries are equal in that ability.
Even Trump figured this out. Remember the scandal when he said how if we stopped testing, our numbers would go do down? It's amazing! IF you don't test, you don't report cases and then people who don't think critically believe covid has gone away!.
just putting your head in your hands and chanting “I won’t believe it” isn’t very rational.
What a dishonest strawman of an argument. I pointed out that India's seroprevalence testing indicates about a billion people have covid antibodies. The reporting claims 33 million. Given the spread of antibodies, please feel free to provide a rational explanation of why you believe India has only had 33 milllion cases of Covid and explain the hundreds of millions who have antibodies without immunizations.
Vaccines can help and be more or less effective against variants. They cannot prevent variants of HN!, HN2 or Sar 2 from changing.
The beauty of Rna vaccines by Pfizer & Moderna is that WHEN necessary they can modify the vaccine to cover whatever comes along next.
Like the annual flu shot, the annual COVID booster is here to stay.
A few points:
Asymptomatic infection is quite common. This is well known.
You don’t have antibody counts for the US or other nations so we can’t compare. We also don’t know the sampling conditions that produce the data you claim.
Are you suggesting also that India is incapable of counting its dead? That wouldn’t seem to require too much in the way of innovative technology or advanced medical systems.
Are you also suggesting India is incapable of counting the number of vaccine doses it has administered? That number is twice what the number is in the US. Is that number wrong, too?
Does India both count too high and too low depending on what argument you want to make?
I just want to establish what WHO data you will and won’t believe so we can understand if there is any rational basis or consistency to your “skepticism.”
Utter nonsense. It isn't beyond our control any more than climate change is beyond our control. No, we can't totally exert control over every aspect of either climate change or Covid, but for crying out loud, we certainly can affect some things. Else what is the the fight over climate change or vaccination about in the first place?
Of course, for you it is ultimately about you, so you say I'm being insulting. A bit narcisisstic, don't you think? You ask a BS question like what facts in your comments are incorrect, ignoring that what you do with those facts is the issue. That is, because you present facts, therefore your point is true. Nope.
The issue I am bringing is a scientific one. Inoculating only a small, or hell, even half of a planet's population against a virus isn't the answer. The answer is to inoculate as much of the planet as possible, thereby limiting the virus' ability to mutate. It's that simple. My argument is that the current push in the US to get people inoculated doesn't address the real danger. It's selling a solution that isn't really a solution, as we are constantly being made aware of in the media with every new variant. It is emphatically not that getting the vaccination is useless. It is that inoculation in the US isn't enough. Not by a long shot. Yet you continue to push your argument, which rests on splitting hairs for some purpose I can't fathom other than your own personal glory. You just have to be right, no matter what.
How, Drakk, does the USA control the balance of the planet to ensure they are all vaccinated and that all potential hosts for new variants are eliminated?
By the same token, how does the USA control the climate without the cooperation of the rest of the planet?
How is my statement that total worldwide vaccination is beyond our (the USA's) control 'utter nonsense'?
LOL. So you call my comment utter nonsense and then come back and note essentially what I wrote. What is the problem here Drakk?
It is a BS question to ask you which of the facts I stated are wrong? Interesting new rule you have invented. And what, specifically, have I done with these facts that are wrong? Be clear.
And where do you see me disagreeing with that? Quote me ... and do not omit context. Also, if we cannot inoculate the entire planet (which we cannot) then do you not see value in inoculating as many people as possible? Be clear. You say you are not against vaccinations yet you seem to be arguing that unless everyone is vaccinated we are wasting our time. That suggests you do not recognize that partial vaccinations slow down the spread. Do you not recognize that?
You write this as if you have not seen me agree with you three times now. It is incorrect to believe that the vaccination makes it impossible for the inoculated individual to be infected ... especially given the infection could be a result of a future (currently unknown) variant. But, by the same token, it is wrong to deem getting most people vaccinated 'pissing in the wind'. That goes against the science and goes against the metrics that have been accumulated thus far.
So it is not 'pissing into the wind'? Well, good. Let's make this stand on its own.
And you state this to me yet again as if I have not agreed with you. This is really bizarre shit Drakk. The USA getting 100% vaccinated would not necessarily protect us from future variants. Certainly you agree with that. Now, do you have any data that shows the likelihood that a variant will emerge in the near future that will be invulnerable to our vaccinations? That is, do you have a reason to be so dismissive of partial-planet vaccinations? And if the whole planet were to be vaccinated, do you think that means we are now safe from a variant emerging from sources other than human beings? The point is that there is no realistic scenario where we are all absolutely 100% safe in perpetuity; what we are seeking is 'safer'.
What argument am I pushing? What hairs am I splitting? I do not think you have a clue at this point given what you continue to write.
Finally, I will say it yet again: do you still not realize that I have been agreeing with your foundational point?:
Even if the USA is 100% vaccinated, we are still at risk from new variants arriving from outside of the USA (just like the original COVID-19 infections arrived).
I'm glad you get that. And it's also common that symptomatic people don't get tested, or can't get tested if they want to. So put all those facts together and what does it tell you about believing the reported cases equates to the actual amount of Covide cases?
ou don’t have antibody counts for the US or other nations so we can’t compare.
We don't need them. India has roughly four times the population of America. So if 2/3 of Indians have had covid, it's mathematically impossible for the United States to have had more covid cases.
Are you also suggesting India is incapable of counting the number of vaccine doses it has administer
Not at all.
at number is twice what the number is in the US. Is that number wrong, too
So less than half on a per capita basis. And the discrepancy was even larger in July.
s India both count too high and too low depending on what argument you want to make?
Not at all. My argument is perfectly consistent and your numbers only help it.
ust want to establish what WHO data you will and won’t believ
Why do you keep saying things that are untrue?. I've never said any WHO data is false. The WHO surely reports the numbers given to it accurately. The problem is that you are misusing those numbers to make an argument the numbers can't support.
What facts? Guessing at whether or not India is good at counting cases is not “facts.”
What you’re describing isn’t really math. You are assuming facts not in evidence and extrapolating.
Sometimes analyzing data on a per capita basis is more useful, but this is not one of those times. What actually matters when counting vaccinated people is the total number. If that’s what really matters to you, then according to this data , the US is behind the UAE, Uruguay, Singapore, China, UK, France, Germany, Turkey, and Japan. Frankly, I don’t think that tells us anything useful.
I wasn’t aware you had made an argument. Our entire exchange has been about some data from India, which I cited to support a discussion I was having with Drakkonis. All you have done is dispute the data on the WHO website with no actual citations of your own.
key word here is urge. I agree. I got the vaccine and I too urge others to do likewise if they have not yet done so. Notice the absence of words like demand or force in that headline?…
I’m not an anti vaxxer and neither is drakkonis. I got my 2nd shot 6 months ago. We are anti coercion. I support education and positive reinforcements in efforts at persuasion to get the job done. Demands and threats only stiffen the resolve of the hesitant and turns them even more militantly opposed to it.
Correct. It’s like the global warming issue. Socialists here using the GW issue act as if the 4% of the worlds population here can act here enough on the issue to counteract what is happening everywhere else. We can’t. We need to change what is happening everywhere to make a real difference. We should be distributing the three American vaccines all over the world as fast as they can be made and get that Chinese crap that is worse than nothing out of the picture. If the rest of the world were as vaccinated as we are, the problem with spin off variants would decline dramatically.
nothing was wrong with him. He pushed it. He pushed the 15 and 30 days to slow the spread and lockdowns and all sorts of other federal recommendations. He never made any of it a federal commandment. He always deferred to the individual and state and local governments to choose to follow them. That is why so many of us to this day respect and support that man.
Oops, my bad. Thought I was responding to TiG but apparently I'm responding to Tessylo. So, never mind.
I never said that either of you were.
Do you think children are being coerced when they are required to get childhood vaccines to attend school? Or is it an expectation?
That's all well and good, except that alone is not getting the job done.
And that just shows how irresponsible and stupid people really are.
Why in the world would you think that the push in the US to get people inoculated stops at our borders? Who has given you reason to believe that it does?
.It's not guessing. We already know India doesn't count every case (nor does America), two seconds on google will show you any number of articles from around the world detailing India's problem counting cases, and you have yet to offer a rational explanation as to how about a billion Indians had Covid anti-bodies in July, when only a couple hundred million had received even one vaccination.
You can't contest any of this, so you do nothing but putting your head in your hands irrationally chanting “I won’t believe it” .
You are assuming facts not in evidence and extrapolating.
Then contest them. Tell us why the India governments serologicial survey resulted in numbers that are off by hundreds of millions
mes analyzing data on a per capita basis is more useful, but this is not one of those times
I'm providing context. You claimed that India has provided double the number of vaccination shots compared to America, while leaving out important context. You used current numbers, making them useless to explain the wide spread of covid antibodies in July. Moreover, "double the US" doesn't explain a billion people with antibodies, if, as you claim, India has only has 33 million cases. .
lI wasn’t aware you had made an argument.
I'll try and dumb it down for you. Your claim that the number of reported cases equates to actual number of covid cases in a country is laughable. It flies in the face of common sense and the data provided by the Indian government. It's indefensible, which is why you've resorted to strawmen, condescension and irrelevancies rather than explaining how a billion odd Indians had covid antibodies at a time your source claims that only 31 million had covid. So add reported infections, plus those who received a vaccination and explain why that doesn't come close to a billion.
Drakk, I find your behavior to be entirely out of character; it is bizarre. I have repeatedly told you that I agree with your foundation point that even if the USA is 100% vaccinated, we are still at risk from new variants arriving from outside of the USA (just like the original COVID-19 infections arrived).
You refuse to acknowledge this agreement. Instead you respond as if I disagree.
Further, I make a point that it is not possible for the USA to control the rest of the planet to ensure everyone is vaccinated and you deem that to be nonsense.
This (and more) shows that you are either intentionally trolling or you are not reading what I am writing. So which is it?
My position is that we should continue to push getting the entire USA population vaccinated (and make vaccines available to those nations that need it most) because the vaccines are indeed effective (albeit not 100%) against the known variants and thus the more vaccinated the fewer sick. Fewer sick means less drain on our medical resources and a quicker return to a normalcy.
The fact that a new variant could emerge from the unvaccinated outside of our borders does not mean that we should lessen our drive to vaccinate.
You keep harping that the vaccine should not be sold as 'we all get vaccinated and now we are all 100% safe' is of course correct. But note that the way you have made your case makes you appear like an anti-vaxxer. You shout that you are not, but the better approach is to be more careful in how you express yourself.
And if someone agrees with a key point you make, you might try working with that agreement instead of pretending it was disagreement.
There are some (many, it would seem) who are against the vaccination based on emotion and group think. That is, they are not against the vaccine based on facts and reason. Thus education and positive reinforcement will not be effective. They will shake their heads and pretty much ignore.
They will not change.
Trouble is, these uber-stubborn individuals are causing harm to society. Resources (both physical and psychological) are being expended to deal with people who continue to get infected and the super-majority of these are unvaccinated.
You want restrictions, etc. to go away. So does everyone else. But when a group of uber-stubborn individuals will not listen to reason and are affecting society (not just themselves) the only remaining course of action is coercion.
What "facts and reason and common sense" are you referring to? Do you mean that my insistence that putting out 10% of a fire isn't all that effective?
Do you ever get tired of embarrassing yourself? I'm guessing not, because you don't even see it.
Um, the fact that no one is doing anything about infections in the third world maybe? You know, where all the variants are coming from?
You know the US has donated vaccines, yes?
Which is what you are apparently trying to make my argument about. If it were otherwise, you'd simply upvote my comments and be done with it. Instead, you act as if the fate of the planet hangs on the anti-vaccers in this country. I know you aren't stupid, TiG, so it mystifies me that you are dwelling on 10% of the fire while ignoring the other 90%.
Yeah, your going to deny that, even though you prove it with every comment you make. Here's the facts about that. Some don't trust the vaccination for whatever reason. Deal with it. If I were to attain enough power to impose my beliefs about God, are you going to believe? No. Why? It doesn't matter. Your reasons are yours. It's the same for vaccinations.
Yeah, but the same argument could be made about you for not believing in God or following His commands. Some of us believe the US is willingly feeding itself into a woodchipper and calling it sane. Compared to that, Covid is nothing.
Awesome! To understand just how awesome that is, imagine us religious people imposing our beliefs on the rest of you for the same reasons.
"... no one is doing anything ..."
That is pure imagination from you. My point is simply that we should continue to vaccinate the unvaccinated. We have far more control (and far more interest) in doing this locally with people that are here in our borders infecting others. But the USA, and other nations, are also donating vaccines and support to other nations.
You seem to be arguing (implicitly by your tone and focus) that we drop the push to vaccinate locally and put all of our effort on poorer nations.
And where am I doing this? Because I am in favor of getting most Americans vaccinated??
Yet another vague claim that you refuse to evidence with quotes.
Those who willingly run about without vaccines (and especially those who do not take precautions) are demonstrably doing damage to society. The fact that I am not persuaded that the Christian God exists does not damage society and, most importantly, is based on facts and reason — not stubbornness.
How do you think the world has grown so many religious people in the first place? Do you understand the practice of proselytizing in religious organizations? Do you know the history of religious culture coming from conquest? Coercion is fundamental to religions. So I do not need to imagine religious coercion, it is and has been well known and on full display.
Now, that established, I clearly am not in favor of coercion except as a last resort. We have hit the point where all that is left is coercion. Unvaccinated people (here and on the balance of the planet) manifest a threat. Unvaccinated harm more than just themselves. Someone not believing in your particular definition of god is not harming anyone.
Note, Drakk, how you have again refused to acknowledge that I agree with your fundamental point and instead engage in both strawman arguments and unsubstantiated declarations followed by contrived attempts to be disagreeable (i.e. bringing religion into the context).
Yes, I know that. I also know that the two children in third world counties that I sponsor isn't even a drop in a bucket. What I dream of is that the US cared more about the third world suffering from Covid than it does about making political points concerning the unvaccinated here. That would be my idea of making America great.
Children are not adults and don’t have all the same rights, particularly at school during school hours. Without a parental medical or religious exemption, I have no problem having early elementary through 7th grade mandatory vaccines for kids. Adults are another matter.
So, you admit that we've donated doses, but somehow think we don't want them going into non-american arms.
A very illogical conclusion, and one based on partisanship.
No, my tone and focus is, and has been, that the Left is simply using the unvaccinated in this country as a tool. They really don't care one little bit about Covid beyond that.
Oh, yeah. Evidence. Right.
so, 4,800,000,000 verses 170,000,000 might be hard to understand so lets remove a few distracting zeros.
4,800,000 vs 170,000
still too distracting?
4,800 vs 170
Nope?
48 vs 1.7?
Gosh! Somebody should do something!
I know! Let's focus on the 1.7! Let's make them responsible for all of it and simply ignore the other 48.
So, no, I'm not arguing we drop the vaccine locally. What I am trying to do is EDUCATE those who seem to think vaccination is about the US. For some, we literally can't be guilty enough. It has to be our fault. I'm literally waiting for some genius to blame the US for the extinction of dinosaurs. Nope, what I am trying to do is expose the idea that the finish line is just a few yards ahead of us when in reality, there are thousands of miles to go.
What?
Seriously, just "what?"
Well no wonder you have people on this thread disagreeing with you. That is one argument rebuttal you have not falsely accused me of (yet).
Now, where do you see me making that argument?
I disagree with your scale but agree (as I have five times now —you still refuse to acknowledge this—) that 100% vaccination in the USA still will not ensure safety. That we (the world) need to achieve planetary herd immunity. And that means all nations should be helping to that end. But the priority should be: take care of your own house first. That does not mean we cannot do two things at once (we are and have been doing so). But if we get the unvaccinated in the USA down to a single digit percentile we will be able to get back to a normalcy. And, critically, we will not have an overloaded medical system.
Further, if a new breakthrough variant which renders our vaccines impotent does not emerge, we will be good until the next catastrophe (e.g. another terrorist attack).
To wit, we are not IMO thousands of miles away. We are much closer than you express. You are apparently presuming that a variant will emerge that renders our vaccines impotent. Given what has taken place thus far, I am not so pessimistic.
I freaking haven't accused you of anything! Why are you trying to make this about you?
[DELETED] I'm talking about the overall trend concerning vaccinations in this country.
Okay. Let's play this game according to your rules. Where have I suggested otherwise? Answer? Nowhere. My point is, and has been, that we are pissing in the wind if we don't do something about all the other petri dishes out there. That is not happening. Instead, vaccination is being used as a political tool.
No, we haven't. Not in any meaningful way. To my amazement, Biden isn't rolling over and peeing himself over China. He's trying to build a consensus among nations to fight back. We need the same effort concerning Covid. Unless that happens, unless we try to do everything we can to stop variants, we're pissing in the wind. Its that simple.
But rather than simply agree, you have to make this about you. You have to find some way, some angle, in which you feel you can be right. Not one word I've said argues against vaccination in this country. My point remains that it is, for the most part, pointless unless we address it on a global scale. Variants are proving my case. We are vaccinating a specific strain. Covid, to personify it, is working around that vaccination. The only realistic tool we have to fight it is to vaccinate as much of the world as humanly possible, as fast as humanly possible, for the reasons the Left harangues the Right over.
And that idea right there is the problem. We're thinking in terms of personal convenience. If only... If only could get everyone vaccinated then things would go back to what they were. Horseshit. Variants are a reality that prevents this. We are being sold on the idea that, if only everyone would get vaccinated the problem would end. NOPE! For effs sake, TiG, you of all people here should know this. the threat doesn't come from the 1.7, the threat comes from the 48. That is, yes, it's possible a variant can come from the 1.8 but, statistically, and provably, variants are far more likely to come from the 48.
For fracks sake, TiG, stop arguing with me simply because it's me.
I have an entire thread of quotes from you that say otherwise:
I could go on but the prior comments are suppressed so I will stop here. You seem to not be aware of what you are writing.
I object to you putting words in my mouth and you call me a narcissist for calling you out on it. You are playing games.
I did not state that you suggested otherwise. I was being complete in my commentary. What you have claimed, however, is wrong. You (as shown in the quote) claim that we are not taking any actions with the rest of the world. That is false. You are incorrect. We are and have been acting to get the rest of the world vaccinated. Second, we are not pissing in the wind by vaccinating domestically. You are wrong. We are mitigating infections and reducing the load on our medical facilities. Third, you claim that vaccination is being used as a political tool. Sure, everything is used as a political tool. But in the large, how is getting more vaccinations of political advantage? You likely are going to claim that because most unvaccinated are R that the push to get everyone vaccinated is necessarily partisan. To me that is just bullshit partisan crap from you. Forget the fucking politics Drakk and focus on what matters.
I disagree. Again, you presume that while we focus on local vaccinations that a new variant will emerge (from outside the USA) that will be invulnerable to our vaccines. So far that has not occurred. What drives you to be so confident that our vaccines will be rendered useless?
The sensible approach is to vaccinate people because the vaccines are shown to be effective (albeit not perfect) against all known variants. That is very encouraging.
You are the one making this about me. My guess is that this is simply another slimy tactic from you. I have articulated my positions and provided rebuttals. You, however, have refused to acknowledge the fundamental points of agreement no matter how many times I make you aware. That, right there, is absolute proof that you are playing games. And when I call this out you claim that I am making this about me. Slimy deflection.
I have not once accused you of arguing against vaccinations. I stated that the way you are expressing yourself could easily cause people to see you as an anti-vaxxer.
How? You did not explain. So far the variants are being largely stopped by the vaccines. It is the unvaccinated who are (by far) getting sick.
You take my words: "But if we get the unvaccinated in the USA down to a single digit percentile we will be able to get back to a normalcy. " ignore my comments on also fighting infections worldwide and then pretend I am arguing that all we need do is vaccinate ourselves.
You are the problem here Drakk.
That is exactly what I think has been going on with you but I chose to not make the declaration. My first reply to you was a rebuttal on one point: that vaccines are indeed making a difference in the variants. I agreed with you from the beginning that a new disruptive variant would more likely come from the unvaccinated worldwide than the unvaccinated domestically.
I did not pile on with the other arguments made by your interlocutors in this thread. It is your strawman allegations that cause me to expand my comments into what we have now.
All this shit is because of you.
Oh.
Yeah.
Apparently, pointing out what you are self evidently doing is an accusation of some sort rather than just pointing out what you're already doing.
Just to you understand me, to my mind, accusing you of something would be something like saying you're responsible for black people being poor because you're white. It wouldn't be something you are actually already doing, which I feel should be apparent enough to not bother with pointing out.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand were back to your favorite place, Me-ville. The town where everything is about TiG.
Right. I'm totally wrong in the face of the evidence you provided and I admit it.... er... wait? isn't there supposed to be evidence here? Or are you just making a statement you feel should be true? So, please, provide a link where Pfizer and other producers of the vaccine are working tirelessly to provide vaccinations to the third world, free of cost, because, hey, doing so benefits us all.
No? What? Do you mean you mostly find article how Pfizer and the rest are making wicked profits off of this? How, financially, Bill Gates claims that Vaccines are the biggest, most profitable venture he's ever made?
Okay. I admit it. I'm wrong. The force of your argument leaves me no other choice. NOT. For your statement here to be factual you have to be stating the only iteration of Covid that matters is the one the vaccine is designed to combat. Good luck with that.
So, let's take an honest look at what I'm actually stating rather than the meaning you are attempting to impose. What I have repeatedly stated is that vaccination here in the US is pissing in the wind if we don't stop the sources of variants to the extent possible. While vaccinating in this country is better than not doing anything, focusing on it, as is the wont of social media, ignores the true threat. Variants. We are being sold on the idea that, if only everyone would get vaccinated, we'd solve the problem. Not by a long shot.
That isn't the political issue. The political issue is getting us used to the idea the government has the right to force us to accept government actions. You know, like China?
Um. Yeah.....
If I were "likely" to do that I would have done it already, wouldn't I? So, gosh, I don't know. Maybe I haven't because I don't see this as a political issue, even though the left is trying to use it that way. Maybe, as everything I've said so far indicated, I consider the problem more along the lines of math. Like the billions of petri dishes out there trying to develop a workaround to the vaccine? For fracks sake, TiG, champion of evolution that you are, this should be obvious to you. Instead, you feel you need to argue with me over your manufactured objections. That is, claiming I'm saying something I'm not.
Of course you disagree. Tiresome, really. My point is and has been that, unless we vaccinate all as fast as possible, we're likely pissing in the wind. My argument isn't that a Chicxulub is inevitable but, rather, not addressing Covid on a global scale is fertile ground for creating one. The proof for saying so are the variants already existent.
Thinking all we have to do is just get as many inoculated in this country as we can is a deception of the worst kind. This lie is being perpetuated for political reasons. It doesn't matter which side is doing it. Let's bash the right for a moment. FREEDOM! I should have the freedom to not get the vaccine, right? What is that going to do to prevent variants? Not a thing. What is getting vaccinated going to do to prevent it? Nothing statistically significant unless we vaccinate the world. Not just the first world, but the entire world.
And don't bother me with how we are donating viruses. That's the equivalent of putting them in a bottle and tossing it into the sea. There isn't a serious effort to vaccinate the third world any more than there is an effort to ensure they don't starve to death. So please. Just stop.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand you're not stopping. Your still trying to make this out to be some sort of anti-vax thing. I'm not going to bother with trying to explain to you why it isn't. If you don't get it by now, my explaining it isn't going to help.
Right. So let's put this into it's true perspective. You responded to me, not I to you. My point is now, and has been from the beginning, that inoculation is pointless unless we apply it to the entire planet. My reason for saying so, is variants. Variants are not a "what if", they are a reality. To stop, or reduce the production of variants to the extent humanly possible, we need to vaccinate everyone we possibly can. That means the world, not simply the US.
Apparently, though, you feel a need to argue with this. Apparently, you feel that inoculating 4 percent of the world population will make a significant difference.
Okay. that's unfair. It isn't only 4%. I'm not taking into account the other first world countries. so we bring that total to around 40%. leaving 60%, or nearly five billion petri dishes to create vaccine evading variants.
But by all means, keep making this out to be some sort of anti vax thing rather than what I am claiming. That we aren't vaccing enough. Not nearly enough.
This is just boring.
I'm not sure how it is that you don't understand the points you yourself are making.
You're the one claiming the push for inoculation does not extend outside the US.
You also admit the US has donated vaccines to other nations.
These are both claims you've made.
Seriously? Because the points I'm making is that vaccination efforts aren't remotely enough. Why can't you understand that? Maybe because it isn't politically convenient for you? What the hell else could it be? I feel certain that even people like you can grasp why antibiotics are creating more problems than they are designed to combat. Why is it, then, you can't extrapolate the same concerning Covid. I mean, how friggin hard is it to understand that 60% of the population being petri dishes is a bad, bad thing?
But, you know what? I've been trying to preach to the brain dead. You guys claim the right is the problem when someone like me comes along and claims we aren't vaccinating enough and you take it as an attack. I mean, seriously, what the F? I am literally siding with you guys and you reject it.
Seriously, Sandy, just what the hell are you objecting to? My claim that we aren't taking vaccination seriously enough? No? Then your objection must be political and I'm not excoriating the Right to your satisfaction. If that isn't it, by all means, correct me.
I wish I could meet you in person. [DELETED]
Yes, seriously, Drakk. While focusing on putting words in the mouths of others, you have forgotten your own words and their implications. That's what happens when you're determined to interpret a political party's intentions in as pejorative a manner as possible - the mental gymnastics required to hold such an opinion (Dems don't care about vaccinations beyond our borders) while admitting as true refutations to that opinion (the Biden administration directed the donation of vaccines to other nations) become obvious to everyone but you.
A (false) accusation is claiming I am doing/saying something that I am most definitely not doing/saying.
And now you provide another example. I provided a link showing worldwide efforts to vaccinate other nations. You now pretend that I have claimed that Pfizer, et. al. are working tirelessly to provide free vaccines to third world nations. You take a fact I provided to emphasize that we are not exclusively working domestically and pretend that I have argued something far more grand (and specific).
Yet I have stated that the vaccines have been effective (albeit imperfect) against all known variants and that we do indeed have a risk that a new variant could emerge that would render our vaccines impotent.
And I have agreed (repeatedly) that the source of ongoing variants is indeed a threat. But thus far the vaccines have been effective against the variants. Thus it is not pissing in the wind to continue a push for domestic vaccination while also providing vaccines to nations that need them.
You ever read anything like that from me Drakk? How many times must one repeat a point before it sinks in? You are the one perpetuating this exchange by ignoring points, remaking the same wrong claims and thus triggering the same rebuttal from me.
How many times am I supposed to reply to this repeated statement by you? Truly, Drakk, do you not comprehend that I agree with you on the threat but that I think our current dual strategy is the most sensible course of action?
For the sixth time (I think) now, I agree that there are billions of hosts for new variants out there. Hello? This is a new level of intellectual dishonesty for you Drakk.
And yet again your present a strawman ... arguing against a claim I have explicitly NOT made.
Yet again, no, not even close. Who are you and what have you done with Drakk?
Now for the seventh time?, I agree that we need planetary herd immunity. I disagree with your claim that domestic vaccinations are 'pissing in the wind'. They are demonstrably not since they are preventing infections for all known variants. This would reduce the strain on medical resources and would help us return to a normalcy. The liability is the possibility of a new variant that renders our vaccines impotent. Thus far, no such variant. Thus the strategy of domestic vaccinations coupled with global efforts makes good sense.
I have stated this so many times now, you must have a mental block of some kind to not see it. Regardless, this exchange is solely your fault.
A very good way to close to illustrate utter intellectual dishonesty by you. I think anyone reading my collective comments would see that I have NOT made this an anti-vax thing. Not only have I never accused you of being anti-vax but I have explicitly stated that fact.
You will never make headway with me if you engage in intellectual dishonesty. The more you do it, the more I will dig in.
I made one point in my first comment to you. I provided facts that show vaccines are indeed effective (albeit imperfect) against the variants. I did not pile on and repeat the claims that the others in this thread were making. I simply corrected that point because it is important to the big picture.
The subsequent exchange between you and I stems from you emotionally leaping into strawman accusations and continuing to do so no matter what I wrote. And still, after all this time, you refuse to acknowledge that I have repeatedly (even from my first post) noted that worldwide unvaccinated are indeed the most likely source of a new disruptive variant (and thus a threat that could launch a new pandemic).
That alone proves a level of intellectual dishonesty I have not seen in you before.
There's still a reason why vaccines are mandated for them. It's the same reason why vaccines should be mandated for adults.
Religious exemptions are BS.
Neither do I.
Not really. Adults who refuse vaccination are clearly idiots. Just as we vaccinate kids to prevent the spread of diseases (and to protect them), we need to vaccinate adults for the same reasons.
It’s interesting that the side that says “my body my choice” on the abortion issue without regard to the human body inside have no respect for “my body my choice” in the context you added to the conversation. They only affect themselves and possibly others making the the same choice.
No, it’s not “interesting.” It’s childish. It’s deliberately obtuse. Don’t think you can lump me into this hypocrisy that the Left and Right are engaging in. I have long recognized and acknowledged that pro-life people are concerned for the life in a woman’s womb. Their primary motivation is saving that life, not controlling the woman. Claiming that they are primarily trying to control women is a disingenuous deflection.
Similarly, objecting to a vaccine for a global pandemic as some kind of infringement on your individual person is just as disingenuous. You know perfectly well that the government isn’t trying to control your body with a vaccine. We have lost 650,000 Americans to this disease (not to mention the people who survive with long term disabilities) and another 4 million worldwide. Getting people vaccinated is an attempt to stop that. Anyone who can’t acknowledge that is either mentally retarded or full of shit.
The other side totally blew it from day one. First they called the vaccines in to question because Trump developed them and based on that alone we know that if Trump had won last year that vaccine resistance on the left would be huge to the Trump vaccine. Then they botched the J&J vaccine causing a lot of questions and then like the blue city mayors and blue state governors they all went into mandate and coercion mode on masks and vaccines at whatever level they could and preferred belittling and arrogant condescension to friendly persuasion to get the job done.
Think beyond pure partisanship. This is a case where you should be trying to find the most accurate approximation to truth rather than engaging in fighting 'them'. Those who continue to engage in conformist partisanship — continuing to make this pandemic political — are doing a great disservice to our country.
[Deleted]
The pro life movement is a group of great and moral people who are loving and friendly. We are caring and compassionate. The same can not be said of the opposition.
You forgot self righteous and sanctimonious.
and a complete asshole.
The murderer of Dr. George Tiller is certainly a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The woman who shot Dr. Tiller in both arms is a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The anti-choice terrorist who firebombed Dr. Tiller's clinic is a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The murderer of Dr. David Gunn is a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The murderer of Dr. Bernard Slepian is a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The anti-choice terrorist who stormed the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs and murdered 3 people is a great, moral, loving, caring, compassionate person, right?
The list could go on.
The person who associates himself with these murderers and terrorists says "the same can not be said of the opposition".
That's the first true statement he's ever made!
No. You added something not true.
Except it is, and quite obvious too!
Reply to 3.1 Drakkonis
The first smallpox vaccine was mandated in Massachusetts in the 1850's.
It's been the law of the land since 1905 when SCOTUS held 7-2 in Jacobson V Massachusetts over the smallpox vaccine mandate
and the $5 fine for refusing it. ($121.00 today )
The Supreme Court reaffirmed its decision in Jacobson in 1922, 1927, 1955, 1944 and 1995.
All 50 states and both the Trump Administration (Oct 2020 ) and the Biden Administration ( July 2021)
have declared or extended existing Public Health Emergency orders due to COVID.
Oh I don't know, there are roughly 30,000 statutes enacted by Congress over the years.
We all know the big ones, Thou shall not kill, steal covet etc.
We also habitually conform to modern common sense rules to keep more of us alive, against our wishes.
speed limits, stop signs, no using cell phones while driving our 3,000 lb chariots of destruction....
Why do you quote from another members post and start your own thread with it rather than maintaining the continuity of the conversation by responding directly in thread to the post you are reacting to?
Sometimes it’s an accident. I don’t know if that’s what happened here, but a lot of times, I think I’m replying within a thread only to come back later and realize my “reply” started a new thread.
Other times, people want to pick a fine point out of a more general discussion and expand on it separately.
Thanks, not sure what happened but would not be surprised if it has something to do with the seeder photo bombing his
own seed and disrupting the site bandwidth.
There have been times the site is slow to load and the reply button in response to a post doesn’t work for a period of time but yet one can start a new thread at the bottom.
I’m just glad that they had a certain effect on some here.
It’s ridiculous. You’d think we had never passed a law or regulated behavior before.
Pro Life Meme
The top one is out in the open and functioning on it's own.
And no one is advocating for aborting a full-term baby.
What they are advocating is for aborting this:
Looks human but has no brain.
And there’s laws against dismembering the top one while alive in order to kill it.
some threw a fit when an appeals court in its ruling pointed that out in ruling that the bottom one deserved the same consideration and respect.
There are people out there advocating for the NY law that makes all abortion legal on demand right up until the second before the babies head emerges at birth.
I do not support such a law and I am sure that if it passes it will be a knee jerk reaction to the Texas law.
People who have cows usually want them and have the resources and ability to take care of them
You know nothing about NYS, so please stop posting shit about it.
That is either a lie, or you're woefully misinformed. Which is it?
You all were saying?…
read more:
An opinion piece of hyperbole based on someone's own bias and misinformation. If you bothered with actual facts, you would know NY law does not allow elective abortions up until birth. Here's what the NY law actually does:
1) It allows for late-term abortion (i.e., after 24 weeks) if the health of the mother is threatened or the fetus is not viable. Previously, late-term abortions had only been legal in New York if the life of the mother was at risk.
2) It expands the list of health care professionals who can perform abortions beyond physicians to also encompass highly trained nurse practitioners, licensed midwives, and physician assistants.
3) It removes abortion from the criminal code and places it entirely within the realm of public health law. Performing a late-term abortion had previously been a felony in New York, which as the Syracuse Post-Standard observed, “had a chilling effect on doctors in New York who were reluctant to provide abortions after 24 weeks when the mother’s life was in danger or the fetus was no longer viable. In a widely reported case, one New York woman had to travel to Colorado to terminate her pregnancy when she found out after 31 weeks that the baby she was carrying would not survive outside the womb.”
Spreading someone else's lies only makes you complicit in the lie!
Your article is from 2019. The law was signed in 2020. Please stop writing shit about NYS because you have NO FUCKING CLUE what is going on in our state.
Just regurgitated lies, right?
Yep...no clue.
Hey, that would make it a good anti-abortionist.
No clue. Just lies and misinformation. Seems like a standard tactic of the pro-life group.
But an AR-15 has a functioning safety and you are free to clean it out when ever you want.
Is human
Apparently, you are making an argument that a "centralized authority", such as government, should dictate how we live our lives.
That is the way progressives leftists see things. They really specialize in the art of making laws they demand we obey while they casually ignore them in their own personal lives.
They don't already?
Come'on, man!
Wake up, buckle up, drive 55, don't speed or sell drugs or talk on a cell phone while driving in a school zone.
Smoke in designated spaces if you must smoke or vape in stadiums, churches and many hotels and restaurants.
In Texas you literally have to read the front door of most businesses to see if you can enter with a concealed gun or open carry.
Texas where the government is more worried about mixing religious freedoms into civil law and changing it's own
Constitution than preventing a collapse of the electric grid in the dead of winter or summer.
Come,on man!
Restrictions on abortion isn't about control. They're about personal responsibility.
The arguments over mask mandates aren't about masks; they're about personal responsibility. The arguments over vaccine mandates aren't about vaccines; they're about personal responsibility.
Many intellectuals have told us that masks and vaccines are proven means of protection against COVID. Well, there are proven means of preventing pregnancies, too. Avoiding unwanted COVID infections and unwanted pregnancies are both a matter of personal responsibility.
There's personal responsibility by 11 or 12 year old girls and 14 - 15 year old boys?????????
There is a huge disparity between when children become viable breeders
and when they become responsible adults.
Isn't that age 25 in women and 28 in men?
Currently over 45% of our annual 6 million pregnancies are unintended or unwanted.
Globally that's 44%
So you are talking about changing the personal responsibility of 3.8 billion people?
Good luck with that.
Obviously religion and contraception methods aren't working.
Other methods need to made easier, not harder to obtain,
unless you have the miracle key to changing the very DNA of humanity.
They are not, but nothing is going to stop some of them from having sex
Exactly.
And unfortunately, nothing is going to stop some of them from being the victims of rape and incest. Some states have introduced anti-abortion laws that would force these children to risk their lives and health carrying to term a pregnancy forced on them.
No. But is has nothing to do with smart enough.
The Prime Directive of every living thing from a virus to an elephant is to reproduce. It's in the DNA.
As a species we are way too successful because of our technological advances
to the detriment of most every other species on our planet.
Unwanted pregnancies are the result of the raging hormones, mostly male hormones, which have developed
over millennia.
That is a key statistic and I think if true feelings were known it would be much higher
My opinion is immaterial. Texas law allows 18 year olds to get married or seek services like abortion without their parents input.
17 and under need the permission of at least one parent to get married if they are between 14 & 18.
17 and under pregnant girls by law need at least one parent's consent for abortion but Texas also allows emancipation by the courts on a case by case basis.
Minors and Abortion Care | Planned Parenthood South Texas
I agree
Then let us be responsible.
TEXAS PINUP
You would think that if they were truly pro-life and truly wanted to help, they wouldn't vote against ANY and ALL federal help for babies.
No to welfare, housing, education, clothing, healthcare, etc...
If they want these babies to survive...why vote against these things?
Because they are pro-birth and that's it. I don't care what doctor dickhead says, it IS about control..always has been, always will be. You don't see any of these people adopting kids now and they never will.