Trump told Fox News earlier this month that he will "probably" wait until after the 2022 midterm elections to formally announce whether he will run again in 2024.

"I am certainly thinking about it and we’ll see," Trump said. "I think a lot of people will be very happy, frankly, with the decision, and probably will announce that after the midterms."

ATLANTA, GEORGIA - OCTOBER 30:  Former first lady and president of the United States Melania and Donald Trump stand for the national anthem prior to Game Four of the World Series between the Houston Astros and the Atlanta Braves Truist Park on October 30, 2021 in Atlanta, Georgia. (Photo by Elsa/Getty Images)

Meanwhile, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said last week that Biden intends to run for reelection in 2024.

thenewstalkers

Video

Former President Donald Trump , in an exclusive interview with Fox News, said he will "probably" wait until after the 2022 midterm elections to formally announce whether he will run for president in 2024.

"I am certainly thinking about it and we’ll see," Trump said. "I think a lot of people will be very happy, frankly, with the decision, and probably will announce that after the midterms."

The former president said that timeline was "probably appropriate."

TRUMP ON WHETHER HE WILL RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2024: 'I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A CHOICE'

"It doesn’t mean I will," Trump said of whether he will stick to that timeline. "It’s probably appropriate, but a lot of people are waiting for that decision to be made."

The former president said that "a lot of great people who are thinking about running are waiting for that decision, because they’re not going to run if I run." 

Then-President Trump in November 2020. (AP Photo/Patrick Semansky, File)

"We have a lot, they’re all very well named," he said of the GOP White House hopefuls. "But almost all of them said if I run, they’ll never run."

He added: "And that’s nice, primarily because it shows a great degree of loyalty and respect."

As for a potential running mate, Trump said there are "a lot of great people in the Republican Party."

Trump before boarding Air Force One at in Andrews Air Force Base, Md., in December 2020. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik, File)

When asked whether he would consider Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, Trump said: "He’s a good man, but we have a lot of great people. He’s been good."

TRUMP SLAMS BIDEN SPENDING BILLS AS ‘GREEN NEW DEAL,’ WARNS DEMOCRATS WILL LOSE DOZENS OF HOUSE SEATS IN 2022

Addressing whether he would consider former ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley, the former president said that she "every once in a while goes off the rails, and she comes back, which is nice." 

"She said she’d never run if I ran, which I think is a good sign of respect," Trump said. "I was very good to her, I thought she did a very good job at what she did with the United Nations. She did an excellent job."

…read more: 

foxnews

Just like that every Republican presidential hopeful just stuck their head back in the earth for fear of being thought to run. 

Please Trump; for the sanity of the entire nation (especially all of the TDS suffering loons that already will never recover from just 4 years of you in office). Back down, play king maker, make every damn Republican hopeful kiss the ring. Personally vet all of them and back the one you like best and pull in all of your hard core followers; but don't run again!

The longer that this game of his goes on the more likely any Republican hopeful will left out of position to make a run in the national election. The Democrats are gift wrapping the midterms and next presidential election. Only Trump and the Republicans can screw it up.

I don't care what you say, but those are not republicans. A proper conservative has vacated this iteration of red-state governance. Done so out of sense of decency and commonsense. This is Trump's party of madness!

The party is Trump and Trump is the party whether he runs or not.  We have taken the party from the milk toast establishment democrat lite wing that used to control the party against its own base.  

I don't care what you think. TDS is the most destructive force in the US today; and the Democrats have it on steroids.

Democrats will not be rewarded for the last five and half years and counting of sheer stupidity and corruptness. Biden in his bid to undo all things Trump has wrecked the US. There is not a single damn thing he has done right. The only reason the Republicans haven't called for his impeachment is that would leave and even more incompetent jackass Harris in charge.

It is a shame we only have a two party system; but Republicans are the only choice if Democrats are to be removed; and they must be removed!

TRUMP 2024

The party is Trump and Trump is the party whether he runs or not.

Which makes the GOP a party that has lost all its integrity.

Remarkably stupid. Extremists running a political party (again)? It's going to be real interesting to see the longevity of this 'party.' Gaining power and influence is one thing-keeping it through proper governance is another thing!  Just ask the Taliban of Afghanistan!

We might have to learn just how 'hard up' the U.S. is to return to White Male rule and dominance.

Hyper-rhetorical bull patty. Step up! Put something substantial in your comments. And for goodness sake get some discernment! Republicans can't just impeach willy-nilly (with frivolity), because not only would Congress be frittering and blustering on camera (think how stupid it would look on real-time television and in the annals of history replays), but which "made for laughing-stock" Trumpist lawyers would stake his or her reputation (and possible law license) on dishonest, unethical bull patty allegations?

It reminds me of those two 'loser' Trumpist lawyers sanctioned for their ridiculousness and unprofessional treatment of a time-honored, okay, centuries old profession. Of course, accordingly, DJT bailed and left them (both) short-changed and wondering WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED? 

1. Why can't we make our usual 'jobs' anymore?
2. Why are our standards of living taking a 'dive'?
   

DJT the snake resting on their chests bit down into their hearts and those toxins sank in deeply!

Brainless meme, signifying nothing (like 2020 brainless memes).

No, it has not!  His America first nationalist populist multiracial entrepreneurial, middle and working class coalition is the right message for America.  Our integrity is not based on your bias or judgment.  

There is nothing at all extremist about Trump or his supporters or his issues. He is growing the GOP support among minority communities.  

The meme is right!  We have a big mess to clean up and before then we have to prevent the biggest mess of all (BBB) from ever passing.  

Trump is a narcissist and a pathological liar.   He abused the authority of his office, attempted to coerce officials to lie and engage in unconstitutional acts — even tried to coerce his own VP to do likewise.   He continues to lie about the veracity of the US electoral system after numerous recounts and 61+ frivolous lawsuits.

What kind of mind follows such a person??

Following such a person with a worldwide proven abysmal character harms the integrity of the followers and the organization of which they are part.

Wake up.

The meme is bigly stupid. Trump can't manage a successful 'coup' without sitting his large 'bottom' out on the sidelines. Remember this?

Yes. That happened. Lo and behold, a great many of those yahoos are sitting in federal 'prison iron' this fine Thanksgiving due to a 'talking horse's ass with white-polished teeth' and his collective use of a collective "we,"  and actual lies of marching down to the Capitol alongside and in front of them!

DJT was back in the White House putting the 'finishing touches' on sealing the fates of his 'followers' whom he did not pardon on his way out of office-he left them, wait for it. . . in a "big mess"!

Wakey, wakey, Jefferson, before DJT hangs you out to dry on a windless, rainy day.

Trump and his supporters are not proper republicans or conservatives: Extremists of the worst order.

These foolish followers of DJT, former republicans and fake conservatives easily forget that Donald J. Trump aligned himself with Chairman Kim Jung Un and President Vladimir Putin, and Turkey President Erdogan and so on and so forth effectively favoring them over and beyond European leaders and Ukraine!

This can signify that a return to a Trump regime would spell disaster for our allies, whom will have prepared contingency plans to thwart the re-installed, "American dictator." It is because of Trump that our allies have already cut some of those lesser "supporting" ties (that bind emotionally our countries together). That is, they are in varying stages of 'going it alone' or in new coalitions.

And, no nation on Earth will respect our election processes again after such rough handling and corruption by Trump, who has 'enlisted' lieutenants to call around the country and threaten officials with departure or consequences. One again, ruining the professional lives of a whole new other sector of American institution life respected by the world! (My opinion, that is.)

Trump and his supporters are not proper republicans or conservatives

Then please explain to me in your opinion what is a "Proper" republican or conservative?

Nope. You should be telling me, after all how long have you been a republican and conservative, Nowhere Man? (HINT: A patriot is more than a rhetorical term to be tossed around by white male conservatives in a country occupied by many peoples from diverse areas of our world!  Y'all can't 'own' this term. It belongs to honest, sincere, passionate, decent, and above all wholesome people in ourr nation.)

I am awake.  I support him because he advances ideas and issues I believe in.  I believe he’s the right person to make America great again again. His ideas on jobs, taxes, national defense, trade, religious liberty, social issues are the right ones.  Your diatribes against him only stiffens and strengthens our resolve to support him. If he runs he will be the best person running to MAGA again! 

He told his supporters to go there and peacefully make their voices heard and cheer whenever there was news of a member challenge of a given state.  

Your stereotypes of us are not valid.  

Got any more sweeping generalizations and ridiculous stereotypes of us conservative Republican nationalist populists to share with us and entertain us with.  

I can’t wait to see that answer.  I’m curious what I need to be too in order to be a conservative Republican in good standing according that ideological and religious view point….

I was a democrat for 12 years, I then became a republican 14 years, and ever since I've been a plain old unaffiliated libertarian...

I've ALWAYS been a libertarian... At one time the democrats had room for Libertarians, when we were booted out of the big tent, I was welcomed into the Republican fold until we were booted out of that party as well...

You stated an opinion, I asked for your reasoning behind that opinion... Not because I thought you would give one, but because I believed you wouldn't...

Thanks for proving me right... Not a lot of heart there...

Did Donald Trump set foot on the Capitol grounds on January 6, 2021, Jefferson? Do you have footage or any other evidence to present that Donald Trump kept his word to march to the capitol with his assemblage (in tow)?

If you can't prove it, then just stop defending the indefensible. It makes this weird.

DJT is an old tired, smelly 'fart' that won't evacuate public spaces. BTW, I know you want the 'right person' to lead us or at least in spirit: Let me introduce you or maybe reestablish a link to Lester Maddox, a hard-working businessman who came up from 'dirt' and became Governor of Georgia (1967-1971):

If you like his spunk let us know! BTW, 'listeners' can speed up the video by using the video "settings" cog feature.

You're welcome. And I don't feel I need to oblige your libertarian tendencies to vote republican party. Enjoy this "discussion" as my indirect and illustrative response to your 'concern':

Oh yes,please note the passing similarities to [Trump] from a 'baffled' life-long conservative from a by-gone era of republicanism: (NOTE: The video starts in earnest at 8 seconds.)

Conservatism is the tacit acknowledgement that all that is finally important in human experience is behind us; that the crucial explorations have been undertaken, and that it is given to man to know what are the great truths that emerged from them . William H. Buckley, Founder - The National Review.

Trumpism is an alternative reality that has no basis in great truths. And I am no conservative now, though I once upon a time voted for two conservative presidents.

Good night. More later.  Psst. Trump is an autocrat in his heart. He desires 'slaves' and not individualists and truth-tellers. That is, Donald 'injects' his strong vision of the world into the minds of his followers and then sets about keeping any of that from leaking out!

And finally this from: 

en.wikipedia

Confessions of a Republican

William Bogert a paid actor in a paid for commercial for LBJ... In this clip he claims he voted for Richard Nixon {chuckle} The ideal was reused in the Hillary campaign against Trump, hardly a statement of libertarianism and the only proof of his "Republicanism" was his say so? Really? Ok, his daddy was a republican I guess that qualifies him... And he was scared of Goldwater? Doesn't matter I was a democrat back then...

He gave an interview in 2016 ....  In it he admitted that it was a scripted ad, but that they allows him to ad-lib it a bit... a paid for hit piece that had to be delivered by a republican so they didn't get in trouble and get sued...

Ok blows this one right out of the water as anything definitive on conservatism... He had a contractual money motive for doing it....

Didn't say trumpism was and what he is in his heart I could care less although I would like to know where the proof is that he's an autocrat, hopefully from someone other than a liberal academician...

You quote William F Buckley from his 1959 book "Up from Liberalism" but it's a quote from what source? some quote website? Probably.. I'm about to go into my libary and get my copy of it and see the context in which he wrote it... Cause I'm familiar how quotes are used without context to say things that wasn't intended... Since it is a quote from a work, there is a LOT of context to be had...

Wikipedia? really? {chuckle} I would hardly quote a website that is mostly edited by liberals... especially on anything conservative...

Will come back when I've found the passage in his original work in context......

The quote you made is in a passage out of his 1959 book "Up from Liberalism" ISBN 0-8128-2969-7 My edition is the second printing 1985 edition.... 

Part I the Failure of Contemporary Liberalism, The Liberal... "His Root Assumptions" section The Idea of Liberalism pg. 175...

The section is ten pages long and the quotation is on page 182.... (BTW; the quotation you pasted above is abridged)

How much of it do you want me to quote? Cause from what I'm reading it clearly misstates what he's talking about, in fact misstates in a way that allows it to be used for whatever someone wants to convey to misstate libertarian thinking...

Does anyone really want to read what he really meant? OR, is this going to be the typical about to get caught in a subterfuge so drop it scenario?

I mean guys on your side of the aisle just LOVE to misquote libertarians or conservatives to make them appear as clueless imbeciles when the opposite is actually true... And in the process basically lie about our positions....

the full section is ten pages and I know most of you liberals aren't willing to read that much, you prefer things dumbed down to single passages as it's easier to misrepresent what is being said that way. And then there are those who are going to ridicule it without even reading it simply cause it is a libertarian thinker probably more educated that all of us put together...

So what do you say? should I dispose of this particular lie of low information? or should I leave it alone.... {chuckle} Anyone wants to try this again? My specialty on News Vine was taking these liberal lying misquotes and revealing just how duplicitous the poster is being by posting the actual plain quote that everyone can read... Directly exposing the lie so to speak and by doing this revealing how much the poster doesn't know.... So do we want some actual real truth?

Let me know please

Why are not telling the whole story about Mr. Bogert?

Nope, it does not "blow it out of the water" because paid actors and "actual patients" happen in ads to this very day. Mr. Bogert, says some 80 years later that he was a republican then and now, but NEVER voted for Goldwater! Tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help _______ .

Please do. For that matter I do not usually quote Wikipedia, but alas it was terrible late on a major holiday night and I had some early morning "activities" to engage in. (I did.) Still, need more sleep, but (alas again) got some must-see yard-work with my name on it today- "Black" Friday.

This is not my first time reading the quote, for the record. It's old hat for me, but you no I did not read a book on the term even then. Since you question it (why don't you question Donald and some conservatives who are plainly lying to you everyday?) I will back track it and get back to you.

Yard-work calls with immediacy out to me!

Despite your poor taste at insult, I will 'entertain' William F. Buckley's quote tonight and get back with you. Your insults are childish. Why because you can't properly criticize the biggest asshole idiot who performs as such passionately daily and lifelong. You don't try to 'prank' him - so I take naive critiques of liberals with a grain of salt from some conservatives.

Will get back to you as time permits (don't worry) I will be "right back."

Despite your poor taste at insult,

You may not believe it, but no insult was intended, At least not to you personally, yes insult was intended to liberal tactics using out of context quotes.. That quote is mostly used to say that libertarians and conservatives are living in the past and refuse to advance into the future, which is completely out of context...

I have the ten pages as images for upload so everyone can read exactly what he meant by that in his own published writings... Just in case analysis tries to claim it as something it isn't... And it has nothing to do with living in the past....

(BTW; the quotation you pasted above is abridged)

"Duh." Makes sense to me, why do you feel the need to share that tidbit with me?  In the larger scheme of discussion that added detail is superfluous,. That being said, I have the 1959 book 'open on my desk and I would love to compare "Up from Liberalism" with your stated page 182 version.

Quote away. Please proceed. Let's synch up the pages, before you start dissing (again).

Conservatism is the tacit acknowledgement that all that is finally important in human experience is behind us; that the crucial explorations have been undertaken, and that it is given to man to know what are the great truths that emerged from them .   azquotes

This is the quote I mostly have published in several comments in recent past.

I want to apologize for being 'exhausted' and having a long Thanksgiving day (leading into) and a long "black Friday" with 'enduring' yard work such that I simply left off the source reference to my quote the other day and failed to get back to providing it overnight. Now that I have some "substantial" rest here it is together:

azquotes

To be clear, the gist of my comment on this article is not about "defending" what conservative ideology is, because it is clear that whatever it was Donald J. Trump and the present "party apparatus" is altering it drastically. A tacit acknowledgement that change, however horrible, can exist in conservative politics.

More later. After you respond.

Incidentally, do you really need to post 10 pages of text to make the point that the above quote is seeking to provide? Maybe, you can understand why "AZQUOTES" balked at doing so? It would drastically shift the focus to reading and not "pithy." One might even forget the point they were initially striving to make in a comment!

Before you upload 10 pages to this discussion at risk of changing the direction of discussion, consider that I have access to the book online. If your focus is me and my takeaway then be. . . conservative and just reference the pages that have the context I should see.

Also, you dropped a new term into this thread: Libertarianism.

It strikes me you have not explained how it fits or is relevant to conservatism/conservatives to add it.

Also, you dropped a new term into this thread: Libertarianism. It strikes me you have not explained how it fits or is relevant to conservatism/conservatives to add it.

William F Buckley is the most renown LIBERTARIAN journalist America has ever had...

When you used his quite you brought libertarianism into the conversation...

You do understand that not all liberalism is equal? there are two distinct brands of it, American Liberalism and European Liberalism...

American Liberalism is commonly known today as Classic Liberalism, of which all of our founders were a huge part of creating...European Liberalism for all intents and purposes is socialism... 

Under European Liberalism, Conservatives are the monarchs and dictators, essentially stateism, Conservatism in Europe means the old worn out way, It's why in Europe, Nazi's are considered rightists on the political spectrum when they really are a different flavor of socialism...

One must ask why European Liberalism treats Nazism as conservative, Because the elite socialists of Europe can explain away communists being socialists and needing a dictator to run them, THEY CANNOT explain away Nazism as being socialist... So they change it to being conservative as it had an absolute dictator as it's leader... So did Communism for that fact... 

THIS is why you guys call Trump a Nazi, a dictator an autocrat and republicans/conservatives as autocrats that fall right into line with him....

William F Buckley explained this quite clearly in that ten page passage you quoted from, he explains the difference between Classic Liberalism and European Liberalism in terms (for the most part) that anyone can understand... (in european liberalism the conservatives are the dictators)

What is Amazing is he wrote that ways back in 1959 and it is a perfect picture of what exactly is happening ideologically in the United States today..... 

Classic liberalism and European liberalism have been fighting a war over the American political landscape for longer than anyone in the nation has been alive... today is just the current battle over it and yes it is a war, a war on liberals yes it certainly is.... It will be going on after everyone alive in the nation right now are in their graves as well...

European liberalism stands for the ideal that government is all powerful, the good of the many outweigh the good of the few or the one... essentially the founding precept of socialism

Classic Liberalism (read American liberalism) stands for the precept that government is created by the individual to protect the individual and thru the individual we protect the whole community/nation...

Those two philosophies are completely inapposite of each other... they will always be at war with each other...

Buckley explains this in the entire passage you quoted from he also covers the problem with the academics of our society who are primarily European liberals and how they control a fair chunk of our higher education system.. (a lot larger chunk of it today with almost complete control of basic education)

That passage pretty clearly represents the state of politics in our nation today... and does it very well....

So where does conservatism fit in all these "isms"?

Conservatism mean exactly the same thing to a Classic Liberal as it does to a European Liberal it means the old way of doing things...

Europe has a long long history of autocrats, monarchs and dictators throughout it's history... Stateism IS the old way of doing things there, one overall grand leader with absolute authority..

America doesn't have that thousand years of history behind us in fact we left Europeans ideologies behind when we left to get away form the abuses those ideologies practiced there... Conservatism in America harkens back to our founders and the ideals of the enlightenment that freedom to choose is a greater force for good than ever being a subject to a monarchy, dictator or government... 

So yes there is a war on Liberals going on in this country... And the European liberalism they wish to install here... And you all damn well know that it will go to guns before it is finally settled if europeanism gets close to taking over here... There is no question about that...

So the ideals of the Founders are as relevant today as they were when formulated... Liberal disparagement of them (like trashing Thomas Jefferson) doesn't matter, we KNOW what America stands for and it isn't what you liberals are preaching or supporting...

No I'm not going to post the pages, I've given the references and as you say it is available online if one cares to look for it... in fact read the whole book, it's a revelation...

I've said all I'm gonna say here at this point... The board over time has become a bastion of European liberal thinking along with the lies and hate that brings...

Sad for me to see.... this one was a place for independent thought and free discussion.. Sadly it isn't anymore..

Classic Liberalism (read American liberalism) stands for the precept that government is created by the individual to protect the individual and thru the individual we protect the whole community/nation...

But in this country, INDIVIDUALS do not PROTECT THE WHOLE community/nation. It is the failure of the (Conservative) majority (not all Whites) - for example, which uses choice to move away into new enclaves seeking to get away from their fellow citizens of color. This identifies one area of this nation's greatest CORRUPTIONS of true individualism and self-reliance.  For conservatives and some conservatives do not want liberals to have the same self-reliances they grant to themselves.

For conservatives and some conservatives do not want liberals to have the same self-reliances they grant to themselves.

Oh wow, {chuckle} HOW can one be self reliant when they depend upon government to tell them what they can and cannot do?

What you believe in REQUIRES government to control the population. Socialism does not work without government force...

That's all you got is propaganda? conservatives and whites are holding us back based upon racial lines?

You didn't address anything I posted, nice trying to shift the goalposts to something else......

Got any more?

You think you are self-reliant? So you supply food stock for yourself only through what you kill? You medicate with only what you prescribe yourself? You vanish your foes only with the use of your own mind and self-built weaponry? You pave your own paths, streets, and roads? You sew and patch your own garments? You perform surgery/ies only through your own hands? You patrol your community and defend the nation at-large?

Do you see how much you take for granted or 'man of the community'?

Individualism and self-reliance is white male propaganda talk, designed in the past and now to invoke visions of the white male as 'strength' and others as weak. Actually, what this talk of self-reliance and individualism is - is talk by some groups of whites (not ever all Whites) to express their NON-ACCEPTANCE of getting along with People of Color and Accepting People Of Color and Others into their CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITIES.

That is, it's coded speech used by White Separatists and MODERN CONSERVATIVES knowingly or unknowingly appropriating the lingo!

Furthermore, that is why SEPARATISTS can't agree to federal rule of law, because to do so, would mean blending into one national ("all") and that is remote to the conservative way of looking at life in this country.

So your one of those Obama "You didn't build that" sychophants? The government is responsible for everything? Without government we would still be living in caves I suppose?

You have a very literal definition of individual don't you, according to your ideal you just posted any two people working together becomes community and thence non-individual....

God, such a restrictive ideal... Individuals don't help each other, individuals don't work together to a common purpose based upon their own choice, individuals have nothing in common with anyone else... Individuals I guess are singular to you... 

Revelation of a very small vision of humankind don't you think? man is completely helpless if it isn't for government...

But again this is but a deflection from what Mr Buckley was saying in the quote you posted...Hence not the topic of discussion...

PS: interjecting race again is a nice touch, you got anything other than racialized terms to discuss, or is everything racial to you...

Moving goalpost #2

Care to try again?

Like I said elsewhere, we thank God for the industrial revolution and capitalism….It’s not about race but about economic freedom, individual rights, and religious liberty.  The government is ordained by God among men to protect and preserve our rights not to strangle them in a big brother nanny state.  

Ok, the government is ordained by god.....

If socialism was religious that is EXACTLY the thing they would say... 

Jeff, I can appreciate the fact that your a true believer, but sometimes the stuff you come up with defies imagination....

The founders believed that Governments are ordained (to use an expression you will understand) BY IT CITIZENS.... the consent of the governed? did you forget that one?

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." [87]

Preamble

"We hold these truths to be self-evident , that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness .—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it , and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

God expects that government will respect and preserve the inalienable rights He gave us.  When it doesn’t do that, the Declaration of Independence says that we the people can and should replace said government that does not protect or recognize those rights.  

Where does it say God Ordained Government?  I'm failing to see it..

It says that it’s the duty of men in government to protect those God given inalienable rights. If they do not then that government can be replaced.  

So your one of those Obama "You didn't build that" sychophants? The government is responsible for everything? Without government we would still be living in caves I suppose?

I am going to overlook this, with public notice.

Race is the root issue, modern conservatism, is using "scented words" to hold people of color in a 'holding pattern.'  I won't insult you by questioning your understanding of this, but nor will I be condescended to when I know better.

Another way to look at the state of play: Conservatives and especially some conservatives, have transitioned race, people of color, out of the spotlight, and put in place a (new) political war against liberals, secularists, gender identity, other non-religious persons (and non-Christians), and so forth. Interestingly, not a republican or conservative affilitation in the list!

I, we, are wise to such 'displays.'

Lastly, I am busy these days, and have much to share on various 'story-lines' - the question was asked (of you) about what you consider conservatism to be or words to that effect, to which you deferred to questioning me about my views. I tentatively answered the 'question' with a quick reply about a William F. Buckley quote to which you have latched on to (for dear life) as if you think you can win by 'beating me' verbally with it. You can not. Everyone knows who matters that Buckley was the 'father' of what it means to be conservative in the U. S through is long-running journal, The National Review.

So either say something helpful to this discussion, move on, or just sit and stew.

Race is the root issue, modern conservatism, is using "scented words" to hold people of color in a 'holding pattern.'  I won't insult you by questioning your understanding of this, but nor will I be condescended to when I know better.

Yeah this is the third time you have avoided the issue I raised and have tried to turn this into a discussion of RACE... Thank you for not questioning my understanding I know for a fact you do NOT want to address the issue I raised EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID YOU WOULD... Even online you probably haven't read the passage from Buckley which contains the line you quoted.... (and if you have, you know you will lose that debate fairly quickly, it doesn't mean what you claim it does nor intimate what you wanted it to)

Another way to look at the state of play: Conservatives and especially some conservatives, have transitioned race, people of color, out of the spotlight, and put in place a (new) political war against liberals, secularists, gender identity, other non-religious persons (and non-Christians), and so forth. Interestingly, not a republican or conservative affilitation in the list! I, we, are wise to such 'displays.'

You've been arguing with XXJefferson way too long.....

Lastly, I am busy these days, and have much to share on various 'story-lines' - the question was asked (of you) about what you consider conservatism to be or words to that effect, to which you deferred to questioning me about my views. I tentatively answered the 'question' with a quick reply about a William F. Buckley quote to which you have latched on to (for dear life) as if you think you can win by 'beating me' verbally with it. You can not. Everyone knows who matters that Buckley was the 'father' of what it means to be conservative in the U. S through is long-running journal, The National Review.

So what your admitting is that you do not want to address your misuse of the quote, I challenged you on it, you said ok I'll look it up and respond. You have offered no response yet your claiming you did...  Yeah I know you have a LOT of "story lines" you wish to promote and you can't take the time to correct your issues of honesty... turning it around at me at this point is a cheap exit strategy.. Your caught lying about Buckley by misquoting him and what he believed to advance your racial hate narrative... Beating you verbally with it? {chuckle} you beat yourself with it... Like most of your political persuasion do when caught lying... I didn't set out to "Beat" you, I set out to have you clear the record and explain why that quote meant what you used it as...

You have now deflected for the third time... which means you either cannot or have decided "WILL NOT" defend your using the quote incorrectly....

I got what I wanted, YOU beating yourself with your own racist spiel, trying to turn the discussion into what you wanted it to be and ignore the initial challenge which you created...

So either say something helpful to this discussion, move on, or just sit and stew.

You have said everything that needs to be said, or in essence failed to say what really needs to be said...

I'm still here, after deflection #3 waiting for you to explain your usage of Buckley's quotation.... I'm not going anywhere, your deflections into race hate diatribe isn't working, they will never work with me, I've been doing this for over 30 years, you've got a ways to go yet...

I'm still here and as long as you choose to deflect, I will be bringing you back to the initial challenge which you claimed you could handle... You now saying you can't?

BULL SHIT. This government is a republic for the god-fearing and the god-less. Stop with the high-sounding rhetorical 'flourishes.' Thus, I demand that you give unto God what is faithful and unto mankind what is reasonably acceptable.

As to economic freedom rhetoric it is a tool in the hands of republicans to wield as justification for why they can't work with minorities and other people of color. Some conservatives are turning to and currently demonizing democrats and liberals for their party inclusions and diversification, in an attempt to de-couple the race narrative.

It is a lie straight out of hell. And, for my part, I won't let some conservatives get away with it.

Ask yourselves this: Why have the white supremacist flocked to the modern conservatism and republicanism 'side' and do not reside in a wing of the diverse party of liberalism and democratic politics?  Answer: Because they found an 'abode' ready to occupy alongside republicans, conservatives, and Donald J. Trump.

If yourselves truly wanted individualism, economic freedom, and liberty to abound, you would team up with liberals to make it so! Instead, you counter-balance diversifying this country for good-sake with your 'combat' and suppressive rhetoric and activities.

Yeah this is the third time you have avoided the issue I raised and have tried to turn this into a discussion of RACE... Thank you for not questioning my understanding I know for a fact you do NOT want to address the issue I raised EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID YOU WOULD... Even online you probably haven't read the passage from Buckley which contains the line you quoted.... (and if you have, you know you will lose that debate fairly quickly, it doesn't mean what you claim it does nor intimate what you wanted it to)

Listen, I think I offered something for consideration:

 

2.1.36 CB replied to  CB @ 2.1.34   2 days ago

Before you upload 10 pages to this discussion at risk of changing the direction of discussion, consider that I have access to the book online. If your focus is me and my takeaway then be. . . conservative and just reference the pages that have the context I should se e.

As for RACE, don't tell me what I can talk about Nowhere Man. Because that won't go well at all.  . . . That's all .

You can argue race hatred with anyone you like, far be it for me to say you can't, JUST DON'T TRY IT WITH ME.... You'll get us both bounced...

I marched in the south in the late '60's-70's with a whole lot of others the same complexion as me.... What your spewing today is not what I marched for, it's what I marched against....

So what your admitting is that you do not want to address your misuse of the quote, I challenged you on it, you said ok I'll look it up and respond. You have offered no response yet your claiming you did...  Yeah I know you have a LOT of "story lines" you wish to promote and you can't take the time to correct your issues of honesty... turning it around at me at this point is a cheap exit strategy.. Your caught lying about Buckley by misquoting him and what he believed to advance your racial hate narrative... Beating you verbally with it? {chuckle} you beat yourself with it... Like most of your political persuasion do when caught lying... I didn't set out to "Beat" you, I set out to have you clear the record and explain why that quote meant what you used it as...

Now you've called me a liar and you continue attempting to patronize me. Well, now I turn my wig sideways.

Okay. That did it. Nowhere Man. The day you 'own' me over a conservative leader's quote placed on and pulled off the internet is the day I will declare you delusional.

William F. Buckley and his minimalist quote means little to mean, but apparently is the world to you!  Again I won't question why that is-be it as it may. We are at a loggerhead - I don't want to drag Buckley;s "pithy" quote out too long here (not the topic) and you want to attempt to 'offend me' over it (though we are not suppose to call another member of this forum a liar (CoC):

So what now?! What's up? What's hanging?

Next will you accuse me of feigning outrage, because you are not willing to explain why the reference page (above somewhere) does not synch with what you state it does? (No matter its narrow focus?)

Yeah, let's see how long this line of discussion plays out.

I lived the stuff I read and write about: So now what? And since you mention it in a round-about what: What "complexion" would that be? It really does not matter to me, because I love people, even the terrible ones I can get alone with mostly up to a point. But since you want to talk 'turkey' - here let me help set the table!

(I am really not interested in an at-length discussion on the merits of a quote, but whatever floats your boat and 'kills' time for you—I guess. Supply a link, a set of actually readable pages on topic, out of the original book (I don't have access currently to "the second edition" without your aid).) Albeit, I will concede the quote to your 'study' in the interest of time.

It isn't about the merits of the quote, it's about the accuracy of the quote... If your going to use it quote it accurately... If it supports your position I will back you to the hilt...

No need for an AT-Length discussion, there are more on here that don't want to hear it than would and I really didn't want to go into it that far, that's why I posted the info to find it and read it yourself if you want to... It is available on the internet archive-open library, all three editions (although edition doesn't matter the content is the same in all three)

Well thank you for the concession to the point... I can see if there is a way to post the ten pages in PDF format so it is downloadable, the only other way is to post them individually as images... 

If you have an suggestion to effectuate this I will be happy to comply...

I have access to the 'text.' That page you reference (page 282? or something above) is not reading as the quote I referenced @2.1.35. It needs 'clarification' before I can determine if I am on-track. Understand what I mean?

I got to run, I am behind on something right now. More later. (If you want, specify the pages I can look up in the original (same across editions) pages. I will look into it - afterwards.

As for the quote I provided, you see it for yourself, I did not make it up. Pithy or not - it is what it is. Take issue with the supplier and not the receiver (me). That said, I will capitulate to the fact and intent of the quote if I can synch with you on the pages to look over (in the original book), and can determine its 'message.'

...and you continue attempting to patronize me. Well, now I turn my wig sideways.

Wow!!! conciliatory and argumentative in the same thread... that is some combination...Sideways wig huh? is that anything like tying down the holster so you can draw faster? {chuckle}

Can you make up your mind on which way you want this? if you really have to know I would be what you consider a WASP, I was a teenager when we marched, we had middle-aged families and old people with us, we had the good ol' down south whiteboys throwing bottles at us swinging golf clubs at out heads, baseball bats, rocks, bricks, and the occasional long range pelting with shotgun pellets, they don't injure but hurt like hell.... a lot of your complexion marched right along with us same age groups, we all endured the same pain... you want to argue race hatred with me, check it at the door not needed...

Buckley supported the civil rights movement as did most libertarians and we still do today... If I agree with what your preaching today, then everything I and all those others marched for and supported, black and white, is a lie...

you want to strap it down and get it on, bring it, you want my support then stop the racial hate mongering... it's as simple as that...

I have access to the 'text.' That page you reference (page 282? or something above) is not reading as the quote I referenced @ 2.1.35 . It needs 'clarification' before I can determine if I am on-track. Understand what I mean?

I can post the single page holding the sentence, my belief is that it isn't enough to really explain his point... The whole section does though and that is ten pages...

Page 182 first full complete paragraph... after he makes the statement of how conservative think he explains why, that is the part that is left out whenever you quote the bare sentence... When you get the why we think that way, you see it doesn't mean what your intimating... You need to read the following paragraph as well... If you want his entire reasoning, you need to read the entire section...

Wow!!! conciliatory and argumentative in the same thread... that is some combination...Sideways wig huh? is that anything like tying down the holster so you can draw faster? {chuckle}

More like saying piss off to someone who is being disrespectful of efforts to 'talk' on this subject and get a rise out a fellow commenter.

And you can do exactly that... 

See my answer @ 2.2.75

I fully accept your answer there, you are no longer worth my time... I was right on how you were trying to use Buckley's quote...

Buckley supported the civil rights movement as did most libertarians and we still do today... If I agree with what your preaching today, then everything I and all those others marched for and supported, black and white, is a lie...

Yeah? Prove it. Though I can appreciate this mention of 'trials' and pains experienced on the road to freedom for Black People and other people of color, it ain't quite proven here beyond statements on a screen. 

That said, I provide you with a cautious, "Thank you for your service and for helping to make it happen."

As for the rest of your dare, bring it on. We will just have to see if I am as racists "sputtering" as you speculate. Because I don't buy the libertarian civil rights model of today in your discourse on this thread.

Now, can you understand why I am confused by what you are continuing on (in a poor condescending way) about,  I don't see what you see! We have to sync up somehow. Moreover, when I search phrases from the page you delivered in my 'book' I don't get a single page selection. I get scattered 'broken' words throughout!

Do you now or did you ever buy the MLK, Jr. civil rights model and his dream?  

Of course I "buy" the MLK Jr. civil rights model and his dream (which is upended in the present scheme of conservatism). You will say to me that conservatism is  performing better, because ysome percentages of people of color are being given "loud" exposure in your ranks. To which, I would say to you that targeting a group can produce "traffic" accordingly. It remains to be seen if targeting groups of Blacks and others has 'legs' or staying power over one or two election cycles. After all, proper conservatives are leaving out the 'front-end' of the Republican Party.

You have the gad to mention MLK, while holding to Donald J. Trump's model of conservatism.

Er, did you consider (responding to) my dilemma @2.1.63 or did you summarily dismiss it?

There is no inconsistency in supporting Donald Trump and supporting the dream of Rev. MLK Jr. His own niece does so.  Many other conservative Africans do as well.  I think that you are mistaken as to how many are leaving the GOP when we are on the verge of sweeping more elections in 2022 than we did in 2021

I am going to let this one go bye-bye.  I can't speak to what is going on with Black conservatives, except to say that considering our numbers in this country some percentage of us have to be a minority in a minority. Therefore, one percentile can represent an increasing count of an overall small group.

Your unconditional surrender to me is accepted!  

Whatever.

Exactly!  
thenewstalkers

Only Trump and the Republicans can screw it up.

Largely true.

But we will not.  Let’s go Brandon is toast in 2024!  

If Trump is elected in 2024, those responsible will have operated irresponsibly and unpatriotically by putting a worldwide-known narcissist and pathological liar who is the only PotUS in our history who tried to steal a presidential election through lies, coercion, lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts.

So here we have a "christian" guy with a "Fuck You Biden" avatar who constantly expresses "Fuck You Biden" who would seek to put an abysmal human being like Trump in the White House.

If Trump were to be elected in 2024 I think we would enter a period of widespread national unrest. 

No doubt.   Maybe this possibility would motivate all those who do not vote to actually do so.

But if Trump were to be elected that would mean that the D party totally blew it by failing to put forth a candidate who could beat Trump.   One would think it easy to put forth a candidate who could beat a worldwide-known narcissist and pathological liar who is the only PotUS in our history who tried to steal a presidential election through lies, coercion, lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts.

If Trump is elected in 2024, it will be because a majority are sick and tired of condescendingly arrogant bi coastal secular progressive elites telling us how to live our lives and creating policies that are bankrupting the working and middle class.  We are America first Patriots. 

I just hope to the high heavens that he doesn't attempt to run again - we don't need the decisiveness he pushes.

What?  Are the progressives going to burn down their own cities for four years running if we do?  

We do need his decisive leadership now more than ever.  

If Trump is elected in 2024, it will be because ...

... of individuals who are either blind to Trump's abysmal character or do not care about the character of the person they put in the White House.

Either way, there is no excuse.   Electing Trump (given there are plenty of alternative R candidates) is irresponsible, irrational and unpatriotic.

Electing Trump (given there are plenty of alternative R candidates) is irresponsible, irrational and unpatriotic.

In your opinion correct my friend? The opposition can only nominate and run someone you and your liberal friends approve of correct?, cause that IS what you just said... According to YOUR ideals of what makes a good president... You sure that's something you want to say?

Of course it is my opinion.

... you and your liberal friends ...

I am not a liberal.

... cause that IS what you just said.

Where?

According to YOUR ideals of what makes a good president... You sure that's something you want to say?

Yeah, NWM, that is what I want to say.   I stated that Trump is an individual with an abysmal character, one that he demonstrated plain as day when he lost the election.   I stated that a person of such low character should not be president of the USA.

With what part of that do you disagree?

Do you hold that Trump has the integrity and responsibility to be PotUS??

Either way, there is no excuse.   Electing Trump (given there are plenty of alternative R candidates) is irresponsible, irrational and unpatriotic.

Speaking as another independent, not only do I agree with that statement, I am hoping that the Republicans are smart enough not to nominate Trump again. There are so many other worthy candidates within the party. I would never vote for Trump under any circumstances. 

Thank you for the honesty re: your opinion...

It's hard to judge exactly where you stand on the spectrum, I can understand that it's hard for people to judge where I stand as well and most don't care to find out... I"m trying to find out where you stand...

"... Electing Trump (given there are plenty of alternative R candidates) is irresponsible, irrational and unpatriotic."

That's a pretty plain statement of the liberal position on him... 

Electing or trying to elect people of low character is a recent characteristic of both political parties....

To be honest, he did a fairly good job under very heavy opposition pressure and stress, character, we learned that character really doesn't mean much in an elected president from Bill, so one of the questions becomes WHY does it mean so much now? In doing the job of president he was very effective, being the public persona of the president he was horrible... As far as personal character I could care less... And seeing as how Bills character issues, (almost as bad as Trump's) was widely excused by liberals.. and lets not even go towards Jack Kennedy's personal character issues which were buried by both sides...

If character was so important, why did we elect them? or LBJ who was a blatant racist, Or FDR's  or any number of other politicians? why now all of a sudden character is the prime reason for deciding who to elect?

Reasonable honest answer please...

As you know, if Trump does run, all those plenty of alternative candidates won’t run against him in the primaries, so we get Trump or an establishment never Trumper.  Well in that case we will take Trump.  

That's a pretty plain statement of the liberal position on him... 

It is a plain statement on the demonstrated character of Trump.   One need not be a liberal to see plain as day the abysmal character of Trump.

As far as personal character I could care less.

He tried to steal a presidential election NWM!    He abused the influence of his office.    He suborned unconstitutional acts.   He tried to coerce officials to 'find votes' for him.   He whipped his supporters into a frenzy by repeatedly lying and using the influence of his power that the USA electoral system was rigged (like we are a third world nation) and he triggered 61+ frivolous lawsuits.

All because he could not stand to lose the election.

You do not care that an individual who clearly cares only about himself and is willing to disparage the nation to get what he wants assumes the office of PotUS??

Do not support Trump and he will wither away.   It is support from people like you that encourage that miserable human being to run.   Don't pretend as though this is not your collective fault.

Do you hold that Trump has the integrity and responsibility to be PotUS??

He’s already been there done that.  Time for an encore!  

Why did you deflect from my question?   You quoted it.   You recognize that was a question, right?   If you are not going to answer the question then why reply to me?

Does not matter, I think everyone on this forum knows that you think Trump can do no wrong.  

If Trump runs I will support him.  If he does not, I will support the candidate that’s most like him.  

Clearly since he’s already been President the answer to what you asked is obviously yes!  

Yeah, I am sure we all know that.

You again demonstrate that you either do not understand the question or are pretending to not understand.  Either way, it makes no difference.

If you take all the character flaws of 15 or 20 other presidents and combine them, you start to approximate the character flaws Trump embodies by himself. 

He was not EVER for one second fit to hold office in the United States of America. 

Everyone knows it, but many on the right are in utter denial. 

If character was so important, why did we elect them? or LBJ who was a blatant racist, Or FDR's  or any number of other politicians? why now all of a sudden character is the prime reason for deciding who to elect? Reasonable honest answer please...

Trump's character was not as well known when he was elected.   That is why I repeatedly note what he did post his loss.   The Big Lie campaign clearly showed his abysmal character.   How anyone cannot see this is scary.  

Trump, unlike every other PotUS, tried to steal the election through lies, coercion, frivolous lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts.

Do you not recognize this?   One cannot sensibly compare the character of Trump to any other PotUS because no other PotUS came close to third-world tactics like Trump.

why now all of a sudden character is the prime reason for deciding who to elect?

In Trump's unique case, character matters because his is abysmal.    When a character flaw is so bad, it damn well should be taken as that which eliminates a candidate.   Let's take another character flaw of an historical individual;  the flaw is an irrational hatred of a particular ethnicity and a history of using influence against said ethnicity.   If people objected to this candidate because of this extreme, potent hatred would you ask:  "why all of a sudden is ethnic hatred the prime reason for deciding who to elect?"?

What he did PALES in comparison to the calculated five year campaign to unseat a sitting president... using every avenues that could be used, ALL rhe resources of the government included... you call what he did as unconstitutional, I say what they did was even worse.... You CANNOT hammer him without acknowledging the crap the democrats and their allies did as well...

The last six years has been an absolute indictment of what our politicians and political parties have become... WE need NEW blood and need it quick...

Trump's character was not as well known when he was elected.   That is why I repeatedly note what he did post his loss.  

To say that Trump's unfitness only showed itself post the 2020 election does a great disservice to the millions of people who were warning about this man from the day he announced his candidacy in 2015. Its not that his total unfitness was not well known, its that people did not want to hear it. 

What he did PALES in comparison to the calculated five year campaign to unseat a sitting president...

You are comparing acts of politics in general with the character of an individual.   It does not matter what took place by the opponents of Trump.   I am talking about the character of Trump.

Do you NOT recognize the abysmal character of Trump?   Do you NOT recognize that Trump's character is unique among PotUS because no other PotUS came close to third-world tactics like Trump?

How can anyone even entertain the notion of allowing Trump a position of public influence much less the presidency?

Give me a direct answer this time.    Would you actually support Trump knowing that he uniquely tried to steal a USA presidential election as a sitting PotUS — knowing that he abused his office and influence on a foundation of lies at the expense of the nation??

To say that Trump's unfitness only showed itself post the 2020 election

I DID NOT WRITE THAT JOHN.     (Loud enough?)

Read the blue in the portion that you quoted:

TiG @2.2.25 ☞ Trump's character was not as well known when he was elected.   That is why I repeatedly note what he did post his loss.

Trump's character was clearly known to be highly flawed given his miserable attacks on others based on looks, inflictions, etc.    He had a history in New York of being a slimy businessman with a history of bankruptcies, refusals to pay, and defaults.   And his 'grab 'em by the pussy' revelations surely gave people a clue about his womanizing and crudeness (among other stories).

But his post election loss Big Lie campaign revealed to the world the true depth of his abysmal character.   He showed the world a textbook example of pathological lying (for two months as PotUS and then continuing to the present) and utter narcissism where he would trash our entire electoral system and generate all sorts of divisive energy in a ridiculous attempt to try to steal a presidential election for the first time in US history.

See the difference?   I am saying that if the depth of Trump's character flaws was not as clear before and during his presidency;  his Big Lie campaign surely should have made it clear to any functioning mind.

Trump is a great American!  He is our protector against the horrors perpetrated against us by the deep state.  

Trump is a great American!

He tried to steal a presidential election!    He abused the influence of his office.    He suborned unconstitutional acts.   He tried to coerce officials to 'find votes' for him.   He whipped his supporters into a frenzy by repeatedly lying and using the influence of his power that the USA electoral system was rigged (like we are a third world nation) and he triggered 61+ frivolous lawsuits.

All because he could not stand to lose the election.

Oh, yeah, XX Trump surely deserves the label 'Great American'.  

I've never supported T-Rump, in fact his policy move were astounding and a huge surprise to me, but he is an absolute ass as a man....

To me I could care less about the ass as long as he does the job... And, if we are being completely honest he did the job....

To say what the democrats did in trying to unseat him which is entirely unprecedented in American history as well is irrelevant and just normal politics in this nation, then you are hopelessly biased

I've said it to EVERYONE Trump is an ASS, Jackass first class... but he WAS an effective president... The FACTS you claim to love says so and you can't change them no matter what you think of his character...

This is the problem you have with the hate rhetoric, trump had a set of policies in place that made this country have the greatest short term economic expansion in history, lowest unemployment and all the other great things he accomplished... Biden come in and in one day switches all Trump's policies off and replaces them with his policies...

Ten months later look where we are at... pushing almost historic inflation, the nation a laughing stock around the world thousands of people laid off at government command 12 million people out of the work force taking retirement never to return... Companies unable to find much less hire workers...

An absolute disaster!

This is an open book Republican policies compared to Democrat policies, never in our history have we had such a DIRECT comparison of one verses the other...

Oone day the nation is humming along, greatest expansion we've ever seen, covid hit, which slowed the economy, the election debacle, absolute policy reverses and the economy completely tanks....

And the people have seen enough to make their judgments....

Trump hate is the absolute LOWEST priority for any real American right now... the REAL PRIORITY is to save this nation from liberal policy trashing....

Why do you think the democrat poll ratings are falling to the lowest levels in history? there is it for ya... A direct comparison of republican and democrat policies...  then you add the other stupid crap, CRT, BLM riots in the street egged on by just about every democrat alive, Antifa attacking anybody that doesn't support the democrat regime.....

Pretty much anyone of any education level can see it now and you CANNOT put that genie back in the bottle...

And all you got is your personal trump hate?

Very sad...

To say what the democrats did in trying to unseat him which is entirely unprecedented in American history as well is irrelevant and just normal politics in this nation, then you are hopelessly biased

You find that shocking? How about 8 years of people including Trump claiming that Obama was not an American? What do you call that?

And it wasn't only Dems who didn't want Trump. What do you call the Lincoln Project? 

There are so many more worthy people who could be president within the Republican Party. 

To me I could care less about the ass as long as he does the job...

Well that is where we are on completely different sides.   I would never support an individual who attempted to steal a presidential election by abusing the influence of his office, suborning unconstitutional acts, triggering 61+ frivolous lawsuits, coercing officials to 'find votes' for him, whipping his supporters into a frenzy by repeatedly lying and using the influence of his power that the USA electoral system was rigged (like we are a third world nation).

What does a person have to do for you to find them unsuitable to serve as PotUS?  

This is the problem you have with the hate rhetoric, ...

It is not hate rhetoric, it is challenging those who would put such an abysmal character in office.    This is not emotion, it is pure reason.   I explicitly list the problems with Trump and you deem that as 'hate rhetoric'.   How, exactly, does one criticize then?   All criticism is 'hate rhetoric'?    Don't play such games with me NWM. 

Trump hate is the absolute LOWEST priority for any real American right now... the REAL PRIORITY is to save this nation from liberal policy trashing....

Pick someone other than Trump!   What is so difficult with this concept?   Do you actually believe that Trump is going to swoop in and 'save' the economy??   Pick another GOP person (who is at least a halfway decent human being) and rally that person into office.    I keep asking why people like you support Trump given his abysmal character and you respond with this dream notion that Trump can, in effect, perform magic.    Well if Trump can perform magic, there is an entire field of GOP members out there who could do likewise.   Pick one.

And all you got is your personal trump hate?

Okay, with that I now consider you hostile.  

Talk about a moral compass that is not guiding a man to his "true north" but instead pointing counter-directional to a loser in Florida - who is so removed from doing the right, decent, and wholesome thing he won't even concede an evidential loss of an election. Trump goes on and spends his life's energy in attempting to bent the moral arc to cover his whims. And Jefferson indulges this man above all others he indulge.

The GOP has lost its collective mind.   They actually think that Trump is some political superhero who will come in and save the day.    About as ridiculous as Ds looking at Obama as fulfilling some unwritten prophecy as the agent of great change for the better.

These are just men.   When elected to the office of PotUS they have substantially greater powers but they are still extremely limited compared to the volition and complexity of our dynamic socio-economic / political system.  

Good grief.   Pick someone other than Trump.

The Right is not in denial at all -it is at 'war' with Liberals: read the 'room.' They have stopped up their ears and are simply going, "Na-na ne na-na." Trump has promised them 'this country' will be taken over by their ideas and concepts. All they need do is look the other way and keep ignoring the truth deficits they're running up!

The Right is at war (already) with their fellow 'Americans" and yes that means such people are at war with YOU and ME and Secularists and LGBTQ and Women and ANYBODY who is not a Trump-approved and tested so-called, "conservative."

There were countable lies during the entirety of the Trump presidency. A literal count of lies manifested for a sitting president, like a sport to hunt them down and post them to the world. Those lies will stand the test of time in a Trump library! 

The Big Lie. Just how many times should we 'score' the Big Lie? Each and every time Trump dutifully restates it?

I've been listening to it since Bush V Gore girl.. Virulent hate, the nastiest things people can say about the others.

The saddest thing, there are American citizens, voting today, that have lived their entire lives in a complete atmosphere of virulent political hate....

I guess there are more worthy people?

We are lost already...

Do you consider me hostile as well cause I will not submit myself to the level of hatred everyone seems to want?

You find that shocking? How about 8 years of people including Trump claiming that Obama was not an American? What do you call that?

You find that shocking? How about there are people now voting, who have grown up, lived their entire lives under the political hate we see expressed here everyday...

In the United States of America..... What do you call that?

This kind of hatred from democrats/liberals has been going on since Bush v Gore....

The demand has now become submit your self to the hate or your my enemy....

What say you? Is our system of governing gone already? is the hate so bad that I'm the enemy? All reasons is gone only hate is left? the only reasonable thing is to submit?

The America I knew is gone....

Do you consider me hostile as well cause I will not submit myself to the level of hatred everyone seems to want?

It is hostility to translate objective criticism of Trump into a personal psychoanalysis of 'hatred'.   To dismiss valid and demonstrably true criticism as simply words of a 'hater'.   That kind of crap is what immediately ends civil discourse.

It is hostility to translate objective criticism of Trump into a personal psychoanalysis of 'hatred'.   To dismiss valid and demonstrably true criticism as simply words of a 'hater'.   That kind of crap is what immediately ends civil discourse.

There is nothing "Objective" about your posts concerning T Rump, claiming is as "Valid" is only egalitarian ego tantamount to saying "I'm Perfect"  YOU are ending civil discourse with your insistence that your right to the exclusion of all else... And anyone following your logic in this instance is forcing the fight....

The hostility is yours, you wear it...

T Rump

"T Rump"?  

It is demonstrably true that:

• Trump lied about the election being rigged and lied about having evidence to support his lies
• Trump attempted to coerce officials to 'find votes' for him
• Trump attempted to coerce his own VP to engage in an unethical and unconstitutional tabling of SoS certified election results so that he would be the 'winner' given the remaining states.
• Trump promoted recounts and questioned the integrity of the entire US electoral system based on lies
• Trump triggered 61+ frivolous lawsuits based on promises of evidence that never arose
• Trump worked his sycophants into a frenzy telling them the election was rigged, that he actually won, that their votes were disenfranchised and it is they who are the force of change to correct this
• Trump abused the influence of his office in an attempt to steal a presidential election
• Trump continues to maintain his Big Lie that the election was rigged even to the present

Now let's see a factual argument that shows that a person who would actually do this, for the first time in USA history, has the character suitable to be the president of the USA and that it is rational and patriotic to support such a person rather than rally about a different GOP member who has the same policy views but whose character is not so abysmal.

Trump has lots of people who support him far more strongly than I do for another White House run.  

Donald Trump is smart. Or is it the assemblage he constantly chairs and permits to surround and advice him? This man has determined that if he can not win the popular vote-that it is critical that he suppress its counts in red-states urban (People of Color) populations. In effect, causing the power of millions to be diluted and impotent.

[Partial return of]

The Rule of The Rustics:

The Civil Rights Era and Sunbelt Georgia

As the civil rights era of the 1950s and 1960s unfolded, the interests, aims, and ambitions of Atlanta’s political and economic leaders diverged dramatically in many ways from those that prevailed in the state at large.

As the city’s population surged, Atlanta voters chafed under the state’s county unit system , which gave, for example, three rural counties with a combined population of 7,000 just as much clout in statewide elections as Fulton County , with its 550,000 inhabitants.

The result was that the more racially moderate and economically progressive candidates generally favored by Atlantans had to fight an uphill battle against self-styled rustics and race-baiters like Eugene Talmadge , who won the governorship four times in the 1930s and 1940s without, as he bragged, ever campaigning in a county with streetcars. Talmadge dominated the state’s political scene until he died as governor-elect in 1946, precipitating the bizarre and embarrassing  three governor’s controversy . 

georgiaencyclopedia

Trump is working to to set up red-states to use traces of this and other visible tactics as described above, as back-up in case of losing the popular vote in 2024. Subsequently, he is stacking the courts, state legislatures, and federal legislatures with 'cohorts' who will deny and defy unfavorable vote counts against him.

This kind of politicking should not be allowed to stand!

Independents, if you value order, decency, and the absence of deepening chaos, put your power and influence to not let this be!

1. That’s up to us to decide.  The more outsiders who are not republicans attempt to influence our nomination and primaries the more likely we are to nominate Trump because you did.  It’s a good thing most of our states have closed primaries so that only Republicans decide who will represent our party in the general election vs the other parties.  

So very well said!

We are America first Patriots. 

"You" are not patriots of the stock this country needs!  "You" seek one-party rule indefinitely. To that end, "You" do not participate in the national "community; neither do "you" assist in proper governance (for all the diverse citizens) of this land; and it is highly probable (not in every case) that as a proponent of small federal government -"you" do not properly pay taxes to the U.S. Treasury.

The more outsiders who are not republicans attempt to influence our nomination and primaries the more likely we are to nominate Trump because you did.

Childish, irrational and unpatriotic.

Again, there it is. Donald Trump's has these people who follow him enthralled. They imagine they are doing his 'will' and all he has to do is mouth (not vocalize), and suggest (indicate indirectly) what his thoughts and wishes are, and so they act!

Positivity is the standard for an EFFECTIVE president and presidency. And you can't call your champion a positive leader or man for that matter. (Indeed, you called him a "jackass.") Now that you care for the policies of a "jackass" human being you despise (but you will take his money), that you do not care the man is an "empty suit" (because he makes you feel empowered (though he takes more power off the top before handing it over to his "community") - well, that is why we care to call Donald Trump and you, out Nowhere Man! That is, you are no better than Donald Trump. You are part of the problem with America's lack of coming together as one!

I agree: Pick someone else. However, this can not be done. "Anybody" from that side will be a "project manager" in the politic boardroom of Donald J. Trump as host and mogul! That is, Donald J. Trump has never ceased running his political machine as if a corporation "activity."

So what? A better America awakes. Get over your 'childhood,' I suppose. You don't get to talk about your libertarian freedoms as liberty and freedom as worthy of everlasting, when so many people of color are oppressed by your overburdensome and tasking claim on their capacities to live 'free and clear' and life out in the open!

And liberals here hate "you" - consider this: Liberals hate what "you" stand for conservatively!

It’s childish, irrational, and unpatriotic to advocate for interfering in another party’s primary process besides ones own.  

We will never come together as one as long as let’s go Brandon is in the White House.  He ran as a uniter and in reality he’s the biggest divider of all time.  

True., even if Trump doesn’t run, whoever wins our nomination will be the closest one to him ideas wise and friendly with.  It will be Trump lite with a different person carrying out his/our values and ideas.  Trumpism will live on even if he never again becomes President.  

We do get to talk about freedom, individual rights, religious liberty, and libertarian economics all we want.  We are not oppressing people of color, we are winning them over to our point of view, mostly thanks to Trump 

It’s childish, irrational, and unpatriotic to advocate for interfering in another party’s primary process besides ones own.  

Pee Wee Herman rebuttal form.    And done poorly since it makes no sense.   How is opining on a political party childish, irrational or unpatriotic?   Think about the meaning of the words you plop down in a post.

Also, bullshit on your position.   Everyone in the USA has the right to opine on all candidates.   You clearly will not refrain from opining on non-GOP candidates and politicians so why would you expect your special rule to be followed by others?

It will be Trump lite with a different person carrying out his/our values and ideas.

That could be good.   You just described a decent human being who is supporting the policies desired by the GOP.   That is what is supposed to happen.

You're just using smoke and mirrors at this point. If you really believe that about a man being open and honest with you-then that's on you for not wanting to understand.

Rhetoric. The numbers you "win" are transitory, and will become even more so, once these people realize (and they will) your true intent. But enjoy your largess while it lasts!

Independents can be on 'the left' or on 'the right' or hold positions that defy categorization.   Independents can be R, D, L or any party really — and, of course, no party at all.   The whole concept of an independent is that the individual does not simply accept positions claimed as truth by authorities of a particular group but rather think for themselves.

Democratic Socialism has nothing actually to do with the D party.   It is a form of socialism which is itself a type of economy.

Yes you can.    There is nothing at all in conflict with someone having a left ideology or a right ideology while being an independent thinker.

What do you see as the conflict?

We who support him will use him to remind Brandon voters that we have not gone away and that Trumpism is alive and well.  He empowers us and we empower him.  A deal I’m prepared to live with.  We were not embarrassed or scared away by the results of what happened in 2020.  We are instead empowered and emboldened.  We are here to stay in American politics.  

A very bad type of economy. Thank God for the industrial revolution and capitalism!  

So Governor De Santis would be acceptable to you?  

So Governor De Santis would be acceptable to you?  

Over Trump, absolutely!   I would prefer an individual who had the guts to NOT support Trump, but De Santis is certainly a respectable choice for the GOP.

Trumpism is another manifestation of Fascism.  It will die out, as do all authoritarian/totalitarian aberrations, although it may continue to inflict significant damage during its death throes.  Its namesake, Trump, will now and forever be known as Shit-for-Brains.  Shit-for-Brains' cultists will continue to thirst for power, but ultimately, they will fail because the American people do not support Fascism.

The whole concept of an independent is that the individual does not simply accept positions claimed as truth by authorities of a particular group but rather think for themselves.

Hi TiG. I agree with you. Still, I want to offer a point of consideration/clarification.

I think this 'notion' that democrats in totality don't think for themselves but defer to authority is superfluous and tedious rhetoric, largely spread by propagandist conservatives. Albeit partially true for those D members who do not take the time to do any or varying at-length research of issues and policies and personalities for themselves.

In the case of minorities, Black Americans especially, some conservatives (AKA: Trump supporters/enablers/surrogates/Fox anchors) deploy a talking point that goes something like, 'Blacks are on the democratic party "plantation" because they are too shiftless to gather information to know and 'therefore' forsake it. And, nothing could be further from the truth, generally-speaking.

People of Color (Blacks especially) reside in one party writ-large, because the 'second' party doubles-down on not making reasonable concessions which allow their votes to have value, meaning, and POWER in the over-all operations or forward movement of the Republican platform (if they have one). That is, people of color who join that party effectively yield (give up their) power and social identity to become republican and conservative beholden to conservative group-think. In today's term that is Trump-think.

Democratic Party members want national unity, but do not want blind devotion to selfish ideologies that suppress other groups unreasonably, give servitude to party heads, or bind them to a particular leader alone.

"You" are not patriots of the stock this country needs! 

Yes we are!  

  "You" seek one-party rule indefinitely.

no, I / we do not.  

as a proponent of small federal government -"you" do not properly pay taxes to the U.S. Treasury.

I pay more than my fair share of taxes. I’m proud to be an advocate for a smaller weaker federal enumerated powers of the US constitution government.  

Actually it’s not.  There is nothing wrong with advocating for a closed primary system where only registered members of a party can vote in a party primary to determine who should represent said party in the general election.  

You can advocate all you want, but there are plenty of independents in the USA and closed primary systems are waning.   

Besides, I am suggesting that the GOP fix its problems.   So you are not even following my point.

So what? A better America awakes. Get over your 'childhood,' I suppose. You don't get to talk about your libertarian freedoms as liberty and freedom as worthy of everlasting, when so many people of color are oppressed by your overburdensome and tasking claim on their capacities to live 'free and clear' and life out in the open! And liberals here hate "you" - consider this: Liberals hate what "you" stand for conservatively!

You know, I'm really sorry I didn't see this two days ago...  And thank you...

Thank you for confirming EVERYTHING I've been saying... you want a clue?

WE ALREADY KNOW THIS....

Over my childhood, how juvenile of you, you express that you HATE the founding precepts of this nation (Classic liberal, nee; libertarian freedoms as expressed by the founders) and you want to replace it with your ideals... Marxist ideals based upon race hate just like the Soviet's and Nazi's... I really appreciate this admission....

We are done, thanks for the admission that your the enemy from within that Lincoln spoke of so eloquently in 1838...

Actually closed party primaries are coming back because of the large number of independents.  If one is not a member of a party they have absolutely no business or right to influence the internal operations of a party they are not a part of.  Independents need to be made as politically powerless as possible with no input in any party and no vote on any partisan matter except in the general election.  Independents need to know that unless they actually join a party to influence it, the GOP will drift right and the Dems will drift left and they will get the say and influence that they deserve, absolutely none whatsoever.  

You nailed it!

It’s all about replacing 1776 with 1619.  

You nailed it! It’s all about replacing 1776 with 1619.  

I nailed nothing!, 

I've lost two friends I valued very very much over the last two days to the hate that seems to just float like a pall over this place...

Be careful Jefferson, I'm not in the mood for celebrations... I don't buy your schtick just as much as I don't buy theirs...

A clue for you? it's all about having an AMERICA FOR EVERYONE.... get it? your brand of hate is just as bad as theirs...

Define "fair share" and while at that add-on: The determinant of fair share. And the determinant can not be yourself or your community.

That's full of shit. And oh, by the way, the founding precepts of this nation are high-sounding, aspirational, and brought down low to the dirt by conservatives who won't let this nation unbridle itself from the butt of its past!

Be done if you wish, and here is to your admission that you think conservative values are worthy of holding people of color in stasis.

And Nowhere Man, again, you will not be branding me as a hater or "woke" or anything else today or in the future.

I will "nail" this subject matter to the wall of 'America' as often as it seems relevant, prevalent, and resurrected for another go 'round.'  And, I firmly state if you want to fix what is wrong with our politics start with those in the republican party who are doing 'mortal' political combat against other GOP officials while they order them out of the party as they tightly clutch "the Donald" to their breasts.

We all need "fixin," but some of us need it more.

You mean Obama really is an American?  

Let’s MAGA again.  Trump 2024!  

You mean Obama really is an American?

Don't worry.  He really is.  Only feeble-minded fascists pretend that Obama isn't really an American.  

Obama is American in name only just like Biden is.  Neither have any love or respect at all for America. 

Obama is American in name only just like Biden is.  Neither have any love or respect at all for America. 

Hard to imagine anyone believes such nonsense.   Even you.   Are you intentionally putting forth this unsubstantiated (in fact, contracted by reality) crap to troll 'the other side'?

I totally believe it.  I think both men absolutely hate and detest everything exceptional about America.  Bidens voters owe America an apology for their poor choice.  

Okay, you believe it.

Why?   Explain what causes you to hold such a belief.

I think both men absolutely hate and detest everything exceptional about America

Hmmm so what is it specifically that you feel is "exceptional about America" that you love, and that they allegedly hate?

Trump spent his entire Presidency, and his post-Presidency so far, trying to destroy the American way of life.  Trump is a traitor to everything Americans value and hold dear.  With his sick devotion to his perverse and deviant authoritarian ideology Trump cannot be considered an American in any sense.  There is nothing Trump voters ever can do that will atone for the great evil they inflicted on our country.

Biden voters are proud that we elected a real American and defeated the hideous Donald Trump, and we will never apologize for it.  Any Trump cultist, any Trumpist-Fascist who thinks otherwise can blow it out of their ass.

I’m willing to consider the possibility of accepting abject apologies from repentant BiDen voters for their role in inflicting let’s go Brandon upon the rest of us…

Everything about America is exceptional except it’s coastal urban cities.  Culture, history, traditions, founders, founding documents, we the people, divine Providence, 1776, all exceptional.  America is a nation all sane and rational citizens love without reservation 

Donald Trump is a great American and was a great American President. Biden voters ruined America by putting that let’s go Brandon into office.  

A complete dodge of my question.

And what is with the witless 'BiDen' ... what is that supposed to mean?    Are you calling Biden a double den? ... a den that goes both ways?  ... something else?

Donald Trump is a great American and was a great American President.

That 'great American' abused the authority of the presidency to engage in a two-month lying campaign as PotUS in an attempt, for the first time in our history, to steal a USA presidential election through coercion of officials, suborning officials to engage in unconstitutional acts, frivolous lawsuits and working his supporters into a frenzy with lies that our system is fraudulent and their votes were disenfranchised.

In Trump-lingo:  "never before has a sitting president engaged in an egregious, blatant, over-the-top, lying, suborning and coercion campaign to steal a US presidential election".

Your assessment is stupidly and blindly irrational.

Biden voters ruined America by putting that let’s go Brandon into office.

Always with the entirely un-Christian sentiment of "Fuck Joe Biden".   

Donald Shit-for-Brains Trump supporters need to get on their knees and beg for forgiveness from the American people for inflicting their deviant, perverse Shit-for-Brains Dear Leader on us.

Donald Shit-for-Brains Trump will be remembered forever as an evil unAmerican/antiAmerican deviant.  Biden voters saved America by kicking Shit-for-Brains out of office.

Everything about America is exceptional except it’s coastal urban cities.

The comment quoted above is further proof that Trumpist-Fascists are not only ignorant, but that they also have a deep-seated hatred for America.

America is a nation all sane and rational citizens love without reservation 

Trumpist-Fascists are neither sane nor rational, and they and their Shit-for Brains Dear Leader hate America and the American way of live.

I'm willing to consider the possibility of accepting...

Comment 2.2.91 exemplifies the arrogance and megalomania typical of sociopathic deviants.

My 2nd seed today about the left and the truth is perfect for the left present on this thread.  

Comment 2.2.99 exemplifies the largest segments of the secular progressive left all across America absolutely perfectly.  Part of their coup against the truth.  

Part of their coup against the truth.  

Writes someone who does not recognize that Trump has engaged in the most egregious lying campaign of any PotUS in our history.

Emphatically. Very well articulated. We need this (here on NT) at this point. It is appropriate. And I say this as somebody who can be fair to Donald Trump according to the circumstances. That man, Donald Trump, is a pariah turned loose inside the 'house.'

Everything about America is exceptional except it’s coastal urban cities.  Culture, history, traditions, founders, founding documents, we the people, divine Providence, 1776, all exceptional.  

That's full of bull patty! First, our nation needs all this 'brainpower' from all its citizens combined. Yes, on a good day when some conservatives are taking this all seriously, that means you all too! Why? Because this nation can not be a world superpower from small-town America. It takes cities and world class cities at that to have the proper sophistication to engage the international community.

Sorry, small-towns, can't fit that bill!

Second and lastly, our founders did not intend for any future generations to cause any one of them to become a sacred 'artifact'! And surely, if the founders, those men, were alive today, I bet to a person they would tell you, us, not to hype the hard-times of past history. That is, those men would surely make appropriate changes to the society as it exist, no longer 'luxuriate' in their early "supremacy," and welcome the diversity that today has come into its own.

This diversity was long in coming; but it is here now.

So you have your slogans, but I dispute any notion that those founding fathers would want this nation to stagnate in some fool-hardy attempt to resurrect dead men and 'enthrone' them.

The Democrats are gift wrapping the midterms and next presidential election. Only Trump and the Republicans can screw it up.

It's happened before, and it will happen again... Remember the miracle of Obama's second term? Heck his wife and mother admitted they were making the final arrangements for his move to Hawaii...

What happened? the Republican party happened...

Useless Mitt had it in the bag and went soft and mushy the last debates and weeks of the campaign and it got out and ran away from him.  

You sure have a different view of it than I do, and I was there as an alternate elector for Ron Paul... Any chance the republicans had to win went away with their crooked forced installation of Mittsey as the candidate... He had a snowballs chance of beating Obama and they knew it, but he wasn't an outsider... Ron Paul was an outsider.... they changed the rules on a phoney voice vote to allow a voice vote to select the nominee and they did this while a third of the delegates weren't even there and the noise meters gauging the voice vote were much lower when they presented the rule change... oh, I almost forgot, they READ THE RESULTS OF THE VOTE OFF THE TELEPROMPTER!!! which means they had the results edited into the narrative BEFORE the assembly EVER TOOK PLACE!!!

Why? Cause Ron Paul had the votes for the nomination on the second ballot so they could not let it go to a second ballot..... (the rules called for everyone to vote their delegate status on the first vote but Mittsey didn't have enough to outright win even under the rules hence the crooked rules change) On the second ballot the electors could vote anyway they wanted...

As a response they lost 86% of the libertarian vote and it cost Mittsey the election... The Republican party HANDED Obama his second term....

Trump told Fox News earlier this month that he will "probably" wait until after the 2022 midterm elections to formally announce

He wants to see if his rubber stamp anti-American fascists will be there to support his lunacy before he says he will run or not. 

Most likely he will not run and just keep the money that pours in from donations, which is another reason he hasn't said if he will run or not; he knows if he says he isn't running his supporters will not send him free money anymore after working that extra shift at the Tilt-A-Whirl or knocking over a liquor store. 

He won’t make it official one way or another until after the election in November next year for a variety of reasons.   If he runs the GOP nomination is his.  If not, there’s plenty of time for the others to jump in the race in early 23.  He has the best of both worlds right now.  When the GOP retakes the house and the senate next year it will be Trumpist America first nationalists that make the majority and not Bush/Cheney establishment types.  

Trumpist America first nationalists. . . .

Folks! There you have it. Now you see in stark relief why we are inundated by Trump's astroturfers. They are here 'jobbin' on behalf of a position in the service of the wannabe deceiver-in-chief, D. J. Trump. 

Donald J. Trump is a rotten politician and a dubious human being, in my opinion.

True republicans and true conservatives ought to be ashamed of giving over their entire political party to a real loser like DJT and his troupe.

Your hatred of him is noted and is an affirmation as to why we rightfully support DJT to be our next President!  

Please, God despises liars, cheats, and thieves and you do not? Wow, Jefferson what is going on with that?

Your hatred of him is noted and is an affirmation as to why we rightfully support DJT to be our next President!  

What a stupid statement;  one does not just 'do the opposite of what our opponents want';  that is not intelligent reasoning, it is emotional, naive and irrational.  

Then God really despises Joe Biden based on what you wrote.  

So what?  Who cares?  He’s the antidote to the sheer lunacy, the unbelievable stupidity, the blatant lies of the dumb ass cognitively incompetent misogynistic and racist loon that is occupying the White House now.  

He’s the antidote to the sheer lunacy, the unbelievable stupidity, the blatant lies of the dumb ass cognitively incompetent misogynistic and racist loon that is occupying the White House now.  

Let me fix this for you

He’s sheer lunacy, unbelievable stupidity,  blatant lies,  incompetent misogynistic and racist loon .

I had a chat with Mr. Big last night and he assures me that boring people have zero chance of even getting a peek at Heaven. He suggests you find a 'god' elsewhere.

So what?  Who cares?

Exactly what I expected.   You do not care about the abysmal character of Trump.   You seek to return the presidency to a worldwide-known narcissist and pathological liar who is the only PotUS in our history who tried to steal a presidential election through lies, coercion, lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts.

Irrational, irresponsible and unpatriotic.

That people basically worship him, no matter what he does, still baffles me.

Blows my mind Ender.   The presidency used to be an office to be respected.   Our parent's generation would never vote for someone who has so thoroughly proven their abysmal character.   Who cannot comprehend that Trump cares only about Trump; that Trump will abuse his office to get his way; that Trump speaks and acts only to stroke his own ego and encourage his followers to 'love him'?

It is pathetic and sickening to observe this mindless, cultist behavior in our nation.

When a PotUS attempts to steal a presidential election through lies, coercion, lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts, would that not be so over the top as to eliminate the individual from consideration for any public office (much less PotUS)??

WTF is wrong with people today?

Oddly, if the economy had not coincidentally grown while Trump was PotUS (similar to what took place when Clinton was PotUS) he would have no real support.   His supporters essentially attribute the great economy during his first 3 years to him ... as if he was the reason ... as if he has some magical power to make the economy 'great'.   How utterly naive can people be?

When the GOP retakes the house

You also predicted trump would win in 2020.. 

That was Brandon I was talking about! He is all that you describe.  

You don’t get to determine any of those traits as applied to any other human being.  

I most certainly have the right to point out demonstrably traits.    But, to use your language literally in first usage, I cannot determine the traits and if I could determine them, I would determine positive, not negative traits.

By the way, the 'you do not get to' is a Pee Wee Herman 'rebuttal'.   It is whining.   Make an argument rather than whine.

When a PotUS attempts to steal a presidential election through lies, coercion, lawsuits, abuse of influence of office and suborning of unconstitutional acts, would that not be so over the top as to eliminate the individual from consideration for any public office (much less PotUS)??

He did not even "build the wall" in four years—for crying out loud!

We disagree as to the extent of his so called acts as well as to his worthiness to be President again.  Since he would not be able under term limits to run again once elected, there’s nothing to worry about.  

There is nothing 'so-called' about these acts.   The entire planet witnessed them.

Emphatically. No one (sane) would want to positively affirm Donald Trump as Head, Leader, President, or "Leader of the Free World" just to spite supposed haters of that man.

Jefferson clearly adores his private perception of Donald as strongman who 'owns the libs.'

It is a stupid comment.

Emphatically. No one (sane) would want to positively affirm Donald Trump as Head, Leader, President, or "Leader of the Free World" just to spite supposed haters of that man.

Well at least one person claims that he does just that.  

Jefferson clearly adores his private perception of Donald as strongman who 'owns the libs.'

How funny.  

It is a stupid comment.

Understatement, CB.

You act like there are not tens of millions of other Americans who would like to see Trump be our President again.  I’m not remotely unique in that regard.  More conservatives on this site would prefer another Republican and if Trump doesn’t run, I could support De Santis, Tim Scott, Pompeo, Noem, Haley for President and another of them for VP.  

You act like there are not tens of millions of other Americans who would like to see Trump be our President again.

I do??    I think I have stated dozens of times on this forum that there are tens of millions of people who support Trump.   That is the problem ... that there are so many.

So of course you are not the only one.  

The bottom line is that we almost as strongly dislike Trump haters as much as they hate him.  

You are on the wrong side of truth.   I think it is impossible to support Trump's Big Lie and be on the correct side of truth.

supporters will not send him free money anymore after working that extra shift at the Tilt-A-Whirl or knocking over a liquor store. 

Haven't watched the news lately. Those are Democrat jack booted thugs operating in liberal bastions of stupidity rioting and looting to their hearts content. Doubt they will share the money/profit with the Democrat enablers. 

Democrats- making the US a shittier place to live in.

They are now taking their organized looting and theft into malls in the inner suburbs that are as liberal now as the inner city it happens in (Walnut Creek, San Francisco) 

A great many things occur in large metropolises that rarely occur in small-town hallows. After all, there is a joke that goes:

Why do bank robbers rob banks? Answer: Because, that is where the money is.

Here is another one (though surely less or not even funny):

Why are wild fires so 'wild'? Answer: Because, rain drops and water hydrants are remote and distant things.

It's not nice to laugh or mock the 'miseries' of others. For surely we all have our own sufficiently to boot!

When local district attorneys crack down on crime again then these problems will go away.  We don’t have to worry about it happening here because the local population won’t tolerate it.  If Antifa showed up here to vandalize and loot there would be 100 Rittenhouse types  here to end it.  

So by they, you associate all liberals into your 'porridge' for mocking and condemning. Jefferson, you are surely predictable. These criminals, and they are part of organized crime of some kind (despite their ages) will be dealt with eventually. But, your mocking tone is unforgivable. Know this you can not manage the world through the use of small town values and limited outcomes.

The nation is just about to get a 'full-on' look at you all and make a decision to follow after your small-world values or detail to you (dismiss) why you can not be allowed to continue sway over the masses from your conservative enclaves.

Washington Wars, the original saga

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A perfect Star Wars analogy!