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The lockdown, Evangelicals and the afterlife … a response to Steven Pinker

  
Via:  XXJefferson51  •  6 years ago  •  209 comments

By:   Dennis Prager

The lockdown, Evangelicals and the afterlife … a response to Steven Pinker
But it takes an unsophisticated arrogance to dismiss belief that the world has a designer and that intelligence must be created by intelligence as a “delusion.” I was disappointed in Pinker, who I respect for his courageous comments and with whom I have dialogued on my radio show. His tweet reveals a truly shallow atheism. In fact, I would argue that it is atheism that is a “malignant delusion.”

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We the People

This article is right on regarding the topic it covers.   Atheism is unsophisticated arrogance.  People wanting to restart the economy are good people.  There is an afterlife. 


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Harvard professor of psychology Steven Pinker tweeted last week:

"Belief in an afterlife is a malignant delusion, since it devalues actual lives and discourages action that would make them longer, safer, and happier. Exhibit A: What's really behind Republicans wanting a swift reopening? Evangelicals."

Before responding to Pinker's remarkably ignorant tweet, I want to praise him. He is one of the few professors in America to call out the left's destruction of our universities. Most human beings lack courage, but no group is more cowardly than academics. This has been true for 100 years. From the German universities to today, professors have almost never taken a position that required courage. Indeed, one might say that when you send your child to college, your child is taught to be a coward by the cowardly.

Two years ago, Pinker wrote:

"Universities are becoming laughing stocks of intolerance, with non-leftist speakers drowned out by jeering mobs, professors subjected to Stalinesque investigations for unorthodox opinions, risible guidelines on 'microaggressions' [such as saying 'I believe the most qualified person should get the job'], students mobbing and cursing a professor who invited them to discuss Halloween costumes, and much else. These incidents have drawn worldwide ridicule, and damage the credibility of university scientists and scholars when they weigh on critical matters, such as climate change."

It takes courage for a professor to write that our universities are "laughing stocks of intolerance," that they engage in "Stalinesque investigations" and draw "worldwide ridicule."

Having praised Pinker, let me now respond to his tweet.

First, "Belief in an afterlife is a malignant delusion ... "

I am not a Christian, evangelical or otherwise. I am a religious Jew who has written and lectured extensively on the afterlife. My belief in the afterlife is based entirely on a logical argument: If there is a just God, it is axiomatic there is an afterlife. There is little justice and fairness in this life, so if there is a just God, there has to be an afterlife. There is only one honest atheist response to this: "There is no God, so there is no afterlife. But if there is a God, you are right that there must be an afterlife."

So, belief in an afterlife is no more a "delusion" than belief in God. But it takes an unsophisticated arrogance to dismiss belief that the world has a designer and that intelligence must be created by intelligence as a "delusion." I was disappointed in Pinker, who I respect for his courageous comments and with whom I have dialogued on my radio show. His tweet reveals a truly shallow atheism.

In fact, I would argue that it is atheism that is a "malignant delusion."

Regarding the delusion part, I asked one of America's leading thinkers of the last half-century, the late Charles Krauthammer, a secular agnostic, what he thought of atheism. To my surprise, he responded:

"I believe atheism is the least plausible of all the theologies. It is clearly so contrary to what is possible. The idea that all this universe always existed, created itself? I mean, talk about the violation of human rationality."

And as regards the "malignant" charge, while there are, obviously, good individuals who are atheist, atheism is morally worthless. It makes no moral demands, whereas Judaism and Christianity posit a God who demands people obey, for example, the Ten Commandments. Atheism demands nothing; it only destroys the Judeo-Christian bases of morality in Western civilization, the civilization that gave the world democracy, liberty, women's equality and an end to slavery.

In fact, evangelical Christians are the greatest defenders of Western civilization, while Pinker's atheist colleagues at Harvard and elsewhere are the most active opponents of Western civilization. How does Pinker explain that? Which exactly is the "malignant delusion"?

Finally, evangelical Christians and other religious opponents of the continuing lockdown do not oppose continuation of the irrational, fear-driven, life-destroying lockdown -- projected to result in more deaths worldwide and even in parts of America than the coronavirus itself -- because of our belief in the afterlife. This is both stupid and a smear. It shows how even a Steven Pinker can be rendered foolish by atheism.

No one who actually knows evangelicals believes they oppose continuation of the lockdown because they value life less than secular proponents of continuing this lockdown.

Do evangelicals love their children and grandchildren less than atheists? Do evangelicals not do everything possible to save lives? There are evangelical hospitals and doctors serving in the poorest countries in the world. Where are the atheist hospitals?

Evangelicals oppose the continuing of the lockdown because they, more than any other large community in America, continue to believe in freedom. Without the evangelical community, we will no longer have liberty. From before the birth of America, liberty has been the cornerstone belief because it was a cornerstone Christian value. The founders engraved a liberty-affirming verse from the Bible (Leviticus 25:10) in the Liberty Bell. At the same time, from Lenin to Soros and today's Democratic Party, liberty has never been a left-wing value.

To Pinker and his colleagues, Patrick Henry's famous plea, "Give me liberty, or give me death," the foundational principle of our republic, must sound truly foolish. It must have been the product of a malignant delusion.

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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  JohnRussell    6 years ago

Without even checking I can surmise this is Dennis Prager. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  JohnRussell    6 years ago

The interesting about Prager is that he always poses himself as the voice of authority. 

I am not a Christian, evangelical or otherwise. I am a religious Jew who has written and lectured extensively on the afterlife. My belief in the afterlife is based entirely on a logical argument: If there is a just God, it is axiomatic there is an afterlife. There is little justice and fairness in this life, so if there is a just God, there has to be an afterlife. There is only one honest atheist response to this: "There is no God, so there is no afterlife. But if there is a God, you are right that there must be an afterlife."
So, belief in an afterlife is no more a "delusion" than belief in God. But it takes an unsophisticated arrogance to dismiss belief that the world has a designer and that intelligence must be created by intelligence as a "delusion." I was disappointed in Pinker, who I respect for his courageous comments and with whom I have dialogued on my radio show. His tweet reveals a truly shallow atheism

There is NO ONE alive or who has ever lived that knows there is an afterlife. The only way to prove there is an afterlife comes after one is dead. 

His idea that an afterlife would be "justice" is meaningless. We don't even know if God cares about being "just". 

I'm not saying there is an afterlife and I'm not saying there isnt. It is not knowable, and there are no "experts" on the subject, even though Prager claims to be one. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @3    6 years ago
There is NO ONE alive or who has ever lived that knows there is an afterlife.

It wouldn't be an act of faith if we knew the answer. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
3.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1    6 years ago

Does that mean you wouldn't want a definitive answer?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
3.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @3.1.1    6 years ago

There's not much point to it (or any religion really) now outside of mere belief. But belief does not equal fact.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.2    6 years ago

Of course not. Let us know when you find it.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
3.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.4    6 years ago

Why not? It seems knowing for sure would be better than fantasizing. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.6  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.5    6 years ago

Who do you believe in? Yourself?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
3.1.7  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.6    6 years ago

No. I don't believe in any deities. I have no need to. At least I know I exist.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
3.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @3.1.8    6 years ago
But it takes an unsophisticated arrogance to dismiss belief that the world has a designer and that intelligence must be created by intelligence as a "delusion."

Until there is evidence of such a thing, then any claims to that effect can and should be summarily dismissed.

In fact, I would argue that it is atheism that is a "malignant delusion."

Opinion is noted.

"I believe atheism is the least plausible of all the theologies. It is clearly so contrary to what is possible. The idea that all this universe always existed, created itself? I mean, talk about the violation of human rationality."

The first flaw in that argument is declaring atheism a theology. The rest of the argument is equally flawed.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4  Vic Eldred    6 years ago

"Pastor Lewis of Cornerstone Baptist Church was in the middle of church services when someone began to bang on the front doors. Outside were 3 police cars, 2 unmarked cars, & a rep from Chicago Mayor Lightfoot’s office demanding services end. Like the KGB"....Nick Short

9TLUGc0V?format=jpg&name=small

dailywire.com/news/chicago-police-bang-on-church-doors-to-stop-services-film-everyone-who-arrived

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @4    6 years ago
"Pastor Lewis of Cornerstone Baptist Church was in the middle of church services when someone began to bang on the front doors. Outside were 3 police cars, 2 unmarked cars, & a rep from Chicago Mayor Lightfoot’s office demanding services end. Like the KGB"....Nick Short

So Vic, are you opposed to law enforcement?  Do you feel church goers are immune to any rules they do not like?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1    6 years ago
So Vic, are you opposed to law enforcement ?  

What laws can a Governor make?


 Do you feel church goers are immune to any rules they do not like ?

I know they are covered under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. If there is a health emergency all places where people congregate may have temporary restrictions placed on them. However, if we permit any entity, even the essential grocery stores an exemption, we run into trouble. Do you understand? A Church can be temporarily closed for health considerations, so long as it is not discriminatory or as the DOJ recently warned the Gov of CA:

“Simply put, there is no pandemic exception to the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights,” Assistant Attorney General Eric Dreiband wrote in the letter.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.1    6 years ago
What laws can a Governor make?

Avoiding the question again?  Figures.

I know they are covered under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. If there is a health emergency all places where people congregate may have temporary restrictions placed on them. However, if we permit any entity, even the essential grocery stores an exemption, we run into trouble. Do you understand? A Church can be temporarily closed for health considerations, so long as it is not discriminatory or as the DOJ recently warned the Gov of CA:

“Simply put, there is no pandemic exception to the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights,” Assistant Attorney General Eric Dreiband wrote in the letter.

What a load of crap.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

This means they are not held separately from anyone else, IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN IGNORE ANY RULES OR LAWS THEY DO NOT LIKE.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.2    6 years ago
Avoiding the question again? 

As usual, you didn't like the answer. Only legislatures make laws.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

It's the second part that progressives have trouble with.


This means they are not held separately from anyone else, IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN IGNORE ANY RULES OR LAWS THEY DO NOT LIKE.

It means that religious people have rights. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Expert
4.1.4  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.2    6 years ago
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

It means just what it says. They cannot prohibit the exercise thereof. Period

SMH

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.5  Gordy327  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.4    6 years ago

While that is generally true, there are limits to rights and religious exercise is not an excuse to violate secular law. The SCOTUS was clear on that.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.6  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.3    6 years ago
As usual, you didn't like the answer.

Perhaps you should try providing one.  An answer cannot be another question.

It's the second part that progressives have trouble with.

Let's see what the Bible has to say about it, shall we?

Matthew 6:5-6 
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

You don't need to go into a church to pray.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.7  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.6    6 years ago
Perhaps you should try providing one. 

We can go back and forth like children. You got the answer. Your governors can't make law. A few of them are responsible for the death of people in nursing homes. Blame it on ideology, if you want.


Let's see what the Bible has to say about it, shall we?

Nope, I go by the Constitution. They have rights!


You don't need to go into a church to pray.

Lol, that one went down with the Titanic, try again.




 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.8  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.4    6 years ago
It means just what it says. They cannot prohibit the exercise thereof. Period

Does religion require churches?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.12  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.9    6 years ago
What would it matter if it did?

Closing churches do not effect anyone's ability to practice their religion.

 
 
 
JumpDrive
Freshman Silent
4.1.15  JumpDrive  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.14    6 years ago
 There is no compelling interest in keeping lower capacities of people in a church than that allowed anywhere else like a grocery store.  

The selfishness is so dominant in the arguments presented for opening churches. People need food and other supplies to live, so we have to tolerate the risk of spreading the infection. This risk is not only to the people doing necessary shopping or collecting in churches. Those who get sick will endanger the healthcare workers who care for them. They will risk infecting others. Try to think about someone other than yourself -- it will make understanding the rules in these trying times possible; it's not about you. Collecting in bars or churches are actions you should be willing to forgo to protect your neighbors.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Quiet
4.1.18  pat wilson  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.16    6 years ago
The President said

That's your first mistake, you all take trump's word for fact.  

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.19  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.13    6 years ago

Nonsense.

Do you require your hands to be held when praying?

Can your god not hear you unless you are in a church?

Shall we address Matthew 6:5-6 again?

What exactly do you need a church for, in your religion?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.20  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.17    6 years ago
Not for you to decide for us.

Never claimed to, just pointed out that a church is not essential for practicing your religion..

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.1.21  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.20    6 years ago

to some people, the church is very essential and the first amendment is always essential.

so pardon everyone else for ignoring the lefts determinations of what other people "should do.

your opinion on how essential church is?  totally irrelevant. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.23  Ozzwald  replied to  The Magic 8 Ball @4.1.21    6 years ago
to some people, the church is very essential

Not according to the Bible.  So I assume you are talking non-Christians???

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.24  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.22    6 years ago
I don't need a church.

Thank you for confirming that keeping church services closed does not violate your 1st Amendment.

 
 
 
JumpDrive
Freshman Silent
4.1.25  JumpDrive  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.16    6 years ago

If people are going to food banks and practicing social distancing that's both an acceptable and necessary risk. Collecting in groups for unnecessary purposes like church is an unacceptable risk which people who actually care about their neighbors would forgo. My Mom's very religious, but she's also caring, so she attends Mass on TV. She doesn't want to potentially harm herself or others by making a stupid, meaningless statement by going to Church. Her values, and consequently mine, are to care about others.

The President said religion of all faiths is essential.  The first amendment...

The rest of your post starting with this is just selfish nonsense. Christianity is not church, it's a philosophy. I wouldn't mind if this behavior did not risk healthcare workers and innocent bystanders. I believe that people should be allowed to take whatever risks they choose, as long as they don't drag others into their stupidity.

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.1.36  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.32    6 years ago
It's the tRump generation

well, we have lives to live and families to feed,

but you can feel free to stay inside..

we are completely okay with that :)

 
 
 
The Magic 8 Ball
Masters Quiet
4.1.38  The Magic 8 Ball  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.37    6 years ago
But they aren’t ok with their not being able to dictate the terms and conditions that we live our lives under.

I would never expect otherwise from them.  todays left has a severe communist bent.

"control over the people"  is a fairly standard communist mindset

luckily the american spirit does not do "control over the people"   very well.

I keep trying to tell them they are not stuck in here with trump, they are stuck in here with us.

trump is not their problem = trump is the direct result of pissing us off.

I pray daily in hopes they continue pissing us off   ( the more the merrier )

 

 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.40  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.27    6 years ago
Whether it is essential for others or not is not for you or others to decide for them, us, me. The bill of rights is essential 

If it is not required for your religion, the Bill of Rights does not come into effect for it.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.41  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.29    6 years ago
Not for you to determine for us

The bible determined that a church is not essential, not me.  So argue about it with your god.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.44  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.42    6 years ago
Again.  You have absolutely no say whatsoever in determining what is required for my religion.

The bible determined that a church is not necessary.  Are you arguing that the bible is wrong???

We are going to meet using social distancing and precautions whether you like it or not and unless you live somewhere like Chicago, there’s not a thing that you can do about it

Are you advocating breaking the rules?  What does your bible feel about anarchy?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.45  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.43    6 years ago
That must be why Paul and the apostles started churches everywhere they went when they took the gospel to the world around them from Ethiopia to Rome to India.

Churches were built to spread the word of your god (indoctrination), followers already know it, so why is a church necessary for you to pray at?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.47  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.10    6 years ago
If secular places can be open with social distancing and precautions then they can’t keep religious places closed to the same standard.  

Correct.   So let's compare similar venues.  

A church is inherently social with people sequestered in a small space interacting with each other.   Not only are they talking (sending airborne particles), but they are singing (propelling the particles to greater distances).  

Similarly, a bar (especially with music) is inherently social with people sequestered in a small space interacting with each other.   They are talking and typically in close proximity due to the volume of the music.   Typically they are yelling to each other which propels the particles to greater distances.

So, it is logical that if bars (and similar venues) are allowed to be open then churches also should be allowed to be open.   And, if bars are open with severely restricted capacities, social-distancing, masks, etc. in place then churches should do likewise.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.48  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.46    6 years ago

You ignored Ozzwald's question and went personal instead.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.49  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.46    6 years ago
Does it seriously bother you this much that some people believe in God and want to go to church?

Don't give a crap what you do on your spare time. 

Does it bother you that church services may spread a disease that has killed over 100,000 Americans, and hasn't stopped yet? 

Give me a number, how many additional deaths is your church services worth?  10,000 more deaths okay with you?  1000?  20,000?  Give me a number you are comfortable with.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.50  Ozzwald  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.48    6 years ago

You ignored Ozzwald's question and went personal instead.

He/she always ignores the questions.  When you don't have a viable answer, you deflect.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.53  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.51    6 years ago
No one has to die for churches to open.

More COVID-19 cases linked to California church services

Coronavirus: Over 40 Covid-19 cases traced to church service in Germany

Over 100 coronavirus cases in Germany tied to single day of church services

CDC tracks cluster of coronavirus cases in rural Arkansas to church, raising alarm on religious gatherings

Does it bother you when folks can go to WalMart or Target and contract the disease?

Both Walmart and Target carry groceries and other " ESSENTIAL " items.  A church has nothing " ESSENTIAL ".

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.54  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.52    6 years ago

What convinced you that you needed to post an outright lie?

You still refuse to answer the question, so as of when I posted it, it was the truth.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.1.57  cjcold  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.27    6 years ago

Pretty sure that I don't want to be infected by worshippers of mythology and superstition who don't have the right to endanger my life by flaunting the rational rules of science during an ever-spreading global pandemic.

If I can't go to my library, radical religionists shouldn't be able to mass gather. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Expert
4.1.59  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.58    6 years ago

I guess what irks me is the fact that all these, or most it seems, people who are against churches opening don't even GO to church let alone hang out with people who do. And if they do, no one is twisting their arms to attend . Just stay the heck home. I could be wrong but........................prolly not

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.61  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.55    6 years ago
Still a lie. Please don't compound things by more lying.

I will repeat myself then. 

Your statement was:

We are going to meet using social distancing and precautions whether you like it or not and unless you live somewhere like Chicago, there’s not a thing that you can do about it

My question was:

Are you advocating breaking the rules?

You claim you answered.  Did you lie, or can you show me your answer?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.62  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.60    6 years ago
I don't think it really even has anything to do with the virus. They just want to make it harder if not impossible for people to worship.

4.1.53    

Do I have to re-link all those news articles???

A person is no more at risk attending a church that follows safety guidelines than you are going to a grocery store or hairdresser.

That is one ignorant statement...  Church attendance is not " ESSENTIAL ".  You stated that yourself all the way back up at 4.1.22

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Expert
4.1.63  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.62    6 years ago

Doesn't fucking matter if it is deemed essential or not. And if you can gather at one place, one should be able to do the same as long as guidelines are followed. Texan1211 is right.

I don't think it really even has anything to do with the virus. They just want to make it harder if not impossible for people to worship.

You seem to be one of the leaders of that "movement". Are you?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.64  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.63    6 years ago
Doesn't fucking matter if it is deemed essential or not.

Your opinion, and worthless as such.

And if you can gather at one place, one should be able to do the same as long as guidelines are followed.

Guidelines say you cannot gather there.  You seem confused.

Texan1211 is right.

When he said that you don't need churches to practice religion?  yes I agree, he was right.

You seem to be one of the leaders of that "movement". Are you?

What movement?  please provide evidence that a "movement" even exists, other than in a toilet.

 
 
 
JumpDrive
Freshman Silent
4.1.65  JumpDrive  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.63    6 years ago
Doesn't fucking matter if it is deemed essential or not. And if you can gather at one place, one should be able to do the same as long as guidelines are followed. Texan1211 is right.

Are you both trying to be purposely obtuse? If someone, even someone who practices social distancing wearing a mask, goes to church, a bar, and a pool party, they increase the risk of getting the disease. This means that they present a greater danger to those who limit their excursions to essentials like food & cleaning products. Also, since they increase their risk, they are more likely to get sick and risk healthcare workers. No one is interested in controlling other people, what they're trying to do is protect those of us who care about our neighbors from those who are too selfish to give a shit.

There are six Asian-Pacific countries whose combined population is nearly as great as ours. Their people cooperated with the government mandates on quarantining, social distancing, and mask wearing. Their federal governments also led the covid-19 response, and made sure there were adequate testing capabilities to re-open. Their per capita death rate is 1/50 ours, and none of their economies have been trashed like ours.

For god sakes, Trump has made wearing a mask a political statement in in this country. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.1.66  cjcold  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.58    6 years ago
No one is flaunting your life.

Whoever is flaunting CDC social distancing guidelines is spreading the coronavirus and, thusly, increasing my chances of contracting it. Even though I live way out in the country and have stockpiled supplies over the years, I do run out of beer and cigarettes on occasion and appreciate how most in the little one-horse town where I shop are following the guidelines.

According to their website, the library remains closed "indefinitely". While I don't like it, it is the wise course of action. Libraries are perfect transfer points for viruses.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.71  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.14    6 years ago
But secular law can not place an undue burden upon the free exercise of religious belief without a compelling government interest.  

It isn't.

There is no compelling interest in keeping lower capacities of people in a church than that allowed anywhere else like a grocery store.  

Except for public health interests. People need groceries to eat. One doesn't need a church to pray, worship, ect..

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.74  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.72    6 years ago

And that's what some people do. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.76  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.73    6 years ago
What do CDC guidelines say about church attendance?  Take a look!

You link to commonly known guidelines.

What is your point?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.77  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.75    6 years ago

The stores in my area all limit the number of shoppers in the building and impose social distancing.  They have barriers between checkout and patrons.    They do not allow patrons to use their own bags anymore.   They constantly wipe down carts and other surfaces.   Every employee and patron must wear a mask.   Plus some provide curbside pickup and others will deliver.

This makes great sense because people must indeed have food and supplies to survive.   This is essential unqualified.

Churches may be psychologically essential to some but clearly people can survive without attending a physical church service.   Nothing prevents virtual services.   Further, if a church wants to open for physical services then they should take the precautions in place.   Basically, a constant vigil of cleaning.   Everyone wears a mask.   Social distancing (every other pew empty and 6' between attendees).    They should probably not sing (propels particles) and minimize public praying in unison.   The choir, if any, can be isolated and distant from each other or they can use pre-recorded music.

In short, if one is compelled to go to what is normally a very crowded in-door facility and take an unnecessary risk, it can be done.   This is exactly the kind of precautions that would occur when another non-essential, inherently crowded indoor business such as a bar reopens.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.79  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.78    6 years ago

What is your point?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.81  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.80    6 years ago

So why are you REPLYing to me?   I have never argued that churches cannot reopen.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.83  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.82    6 years ago

Why write this to me?   Do you think that I have argued that churches must stay closed?  

Bizarre.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.85  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.84    6 years ago
kind of what the whole discussion is about, but it's cool if you didn't know that

My part of this discussion has been to talk of proper precautions for venues such as churches.

Given you replied to me one would expect that your response would have something to do with what I wrote.

Apparently you do not bother to read what some write and go immediately to snark.   Great contribution to the site.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.86  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.75    6 years ago

Because people still need to eat. Groceries are essential businesses. Churches are not. Or is a church a business?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.88  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.87    6 years ago
churches are not businesses. gee. you didn't already know that?

Gee, got any more snark to go with your snark?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.94  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.91    6 years ago

I didn't say churches are businesses and since they are not, then they are not essential.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.96  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.95    6 years ago

I didn't say religion. I said churches. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
4.1.97  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.87    6 years ago

That's funny. They provide a service and collect fees.  Most churches don't tolerate free loaders.

During the pandemic both PA and OH list them as essential businesses which needed to remain open.

Could be an interesting article topic.........

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.98  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @4.1.96    6 years ago

This has been a comical display.   It does not matter what you write, we have individuals substituting their own words, pretending they are yours and then engaging in juvenile taunts.  

If one cannot formulate a decent rebuttal it is best to remain silent.   

Funny, the way I wrote that reminds me of this quote attributed to Maurice Switzer (and Lincoln and Samuel Clemens):

It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.
 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.99  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.98    6 years ago

Comical indeed. But then, any statement along the lines of "God did it" is always comical. In a bad comedy sort of way.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.101  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.100    6 years ago

I do not consider honest, legal churches to be a business (and, since you seem unable to read and communicate what Gordy wrote, neither does he).

Further, SP (since you seem unable to read what he wrote too) was simply saying that there are similarities and that exploring those similarities might be interesting.

That established, an argument can easily be made in support of the posit that churches are a special kind of business.   But I will not waste my time here since what is written is most likely to not be read (or at least not faithfully acknowledged).   So I will simply drop a third party article ( Why Most Churches are Businesses )  that notes the similarities.   Something to consider for edification since your impressive argument —in its entirety— was simply:

Texan @ 4.1.100 ☞ bullshit. have you ever been in a church where they forced you to donate?

Better to have remained silent IMO.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.103  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.102    6 years ago
I never said you or Gordy believed churches are businesses.

You pretended as though he believed that with comments (now deleted) and also with this juvenile quip:

Texan @4.1.87 ☞ churches are not businesses. gee. you didn't already know that?

Or did you mean something entirely different?  Feel free to clarify.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.106  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.104    6 years ago

Learn the meaning of the terms you use.   Projection, as typically applied in a social forum, is when an individual accuses another of behavior that the accuser him/herself is actually engaging in.

Here is a fine example of projection:

Texan @4.1.105 ☞ why bother to clarify when it will be twisted into something else?

Since we are speaking of social forum behavior, this:

Texan @4.1.105 ☞ it's all there in black and white

Is a bluff.   It is indeed in 'black & white' and you are pretending that readers cannot see for themselves what you wrote and that they do not notice that when given the chance to set the record straight you punted with a bluff.

Finally @4.1.107 uses the 'I know you are but what am I' style of rebuttal.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
4.1.108  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.100    6 years ago
bullshit. have you ever been in a church where they forced you to donate?
Well, yes.  I have been involved in several circumstances where a "church" refused to baptize, marry or allow a funeral because the participant was not considered to be in good standing as a participating parishioner.
Of course the situation was always flexible.  A cash contribution to the church on top of the usual fees sometimes worked, but not always.
Do you have to pay your tithes to a church?
Tithing is a biblical mandate that applies to Christians and involves giving 10 percent of one's income to the church . Traditionally, when a congregant tithes to his church , the money goes toward various ministries within the church , paying the pastor and paying for basic church expenses, such as the electric bill and landscaping.
When I was a young lad , I remember the coupon books the parish used for the multiple collections at each Mass.
My Mom always wrote a check and put the check and the coupon together in an envelope, giving us change to put in the basket for whenever it came past us.
My Father was in the Knight's of Columbus and was involved in recording who donated what to the parish.  He also took us with him when he went door to door trying to embarrass the deadbeats into making some sort of contribution.
I carried many eggs and tomatoes back to the rectory.
So, again, I would suggest that if it looks like a business, sounds like a business,
and has been deemed an essential business by certain states, then maybe it is worth debating whether or not churches
are businesses or a form of insurance company or organized crime.
Cheers
 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.109  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.67    6 years ago
The President declared that our faith and prayers are essential and that under the constitution any secular pursuit that is opening up can’t exclude religious groups.

Once again, over and over, you do not need a church for faith and prayers and even the Bible backs this up.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.110  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.68    6 years ago
The bottom line is that you have absolutely no say whatsoever as to what we deem we need to do.

Never claimed to, no idea what you've been reading.  Or is this just another straw man argument?

At this point, meeting because you oppose it just to make a point that we can is reason enough. 

So you ARE advocating breaking the rules.  Thanks for finally answering the question.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.111  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.70    6 years ago
I also don't presume to tell others what THEY should or should not deem essential in their lives.

The bible does, and it says churches are not essential.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.112  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.100    6 years ago
bullshit. have you ever been in a church where they forced you to donate?

Mormon churches require tithing.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
4.1.115  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.113    6 years ago

But they can restrict access to the temple , volunteering, the sacraments or other participation during informal discipline by a bishop.

All quotes in this post are taken from "A Chance to Start Over: Church Disciplinary Councils and the Restoration of Blessings" by Elder M. Russell Ballard (an LDS apostle) in the September 1990 Ensign , an official LDS publication.

There are two levels of discipline in the Church: informal discipline (at a Bishop's discretion) and formal discipline (which is recorded). Formal discipline requires a disciplinary council.

Informal discipline:

When a bishop learns of a transgression, usually through the confession of the member involved, he first counsels with the member. When the sin is not grievous, the bishop may decide, through inspiration, that no disciplinary action is needed. He may continue to give counsel and caution, helping the member resist temptation and avoid further transgression.

Another option the bishop has is to place the member on informal probation, temporarily restricting his privileges as a Church member— such as the right to partake of the sacrament, hold a Church position, or enter the temple. The bishop may ask the member to surrender his temple recommend temporarily. In addition, he may require the member to make specific positive changes in attitude or behavior. No official record is made or kept of informal probation. The bishop maintains close contact with the member and may terminate the probation period when he is prompted to do so.

Formal discipline:

Decisions of [a disciplinary council] are to be made with inspiration. A council can reach one of four decisions: (1) no action, (2) formal probation, (3) disfellowshipment, or (4) excommunication.

Non-payment of tithing only merits informal discipline:

For the record, when visiting a family member in Denver, a trip to the Denver Temple was arranged by invitation only.

For some reason I was denied entry to the Temple as a non member.

The family decided to skip the event and go straight to lunch and the Denver Museum of Nature and Science instead.

Please note that the Denver Temple is currently closed due to the pandemic, by order of the First Presidency of LDS regardless of government recommendations or orders.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
4.1.117  Split Personality  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.114    6 years ago
Jesus teaches Kingdom , not building. The Gospel biographies are filled with evocative, vivid parables, all about the Kingdom of God . They were Jesus’ central teaching. But this kingdom He speaks about is not a where but a when.

It is the state of the world when people acknowledge God; when God is honored and worshipped and respected—the Kingdom is present.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.119  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.114    6 years ago

please quote the scripture stating churches are not essential.

Already did, look for yourself.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.121  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.120    6 years ago
I have looked. What post is it in?

Way, way, way up there.  This has been a very VERY long thread.

4.1.6

Matthew 6:5-6 
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.123  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.122    6 years ago

Singing & praying in a designated building is essential? There's nothing you can do at a church that can't be done in one's home.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.124  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.122    6 years ago
No one at church besides the pastor and those he designates prays out loud in a church service.  Individual members listen or pray silently during that time.  The rest of the service is worship in the form of scripture, singing, special features like mission stories and of course the sermon.

Do you recognize that churches vary considerably in their methods of worship?  

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.125  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.122    6 years ago
That has nothing to do with going to church.

And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others.

So you feel you must be seen by others to pray?

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Do you have your own room in a church?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.129  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.126    6 years ago

You don't get to decide what is deemed essential either. I look at things more pragmatically (as opposed to going by mere "feeling"). And there is nothing "essential" about a church. And note, I did not state any objections about actually attending a church. Only that is is hardly essential.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.130  Ozzwald  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.128    6 years ago
Jesus himself went to synagogue and participated in services when he was here.

So you are saying it is okay for you to disregard the bible, because Jesus may have?  Is that what you're saying?  You are allowed to pick and choose which parts of the bible to obey? 

Not to mention the bible is chock full of "do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy.  Christians still swear by it though.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.132  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.131    6 years ago

Congregating for services in churches is not essential for society to function while fighting a pandemic.   Similarly, bars, sporting venues, fitness centers, theaters, etc. are not essential for society to function while fighting a pandemic.

Example of essential organizations include (but are not limited to):

  • groceries / household supplies
  • utilities
  • agriculture
  • manufacturing
  • law enforcement
  • trash / recycling
  • equipment repair
  • NewsTalkers

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.134  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @4.1.133    6 years ago

Once again, I didn't say what's personally essential. Only whats actually essential. Perhaps it might help if you looked at it objectively rather than by feeling.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.135  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @4.1.134    6 years ago

Some hear only what they wish to hear and read only what they wish to read ... sometimes even if what is desired to read was never written.

Funny, that.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.136  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.135    6 years ago

Indeed. That is also an example of how emotion or "feeling" can cloud rational or objective thought. Some become emotionally defensive and/or irrational and tune out what is actually being said.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.137  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.131    6 years ago
That certainly doesn't say that churches are not essential--well, at least not in any language I know.

I believe it was originally Hebrew and Aramaic.

I know, I know--you gave a quote from the bible and I am expected to just accept that it says what you claimed when it clearly does not.

Look it up yourself, it was a quote.  I even provided where that quote was in the bible.  If reading is too difficult, I believe you can get it in audiobook format.

Please point out where it says churches are not essential.

Wow, how many times are you going to ask for the same quote?  Your previous sentence even admits that I provided it to you.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.138  TᵢG  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.137    6 years ago

Seems the demand is for you to find the exact words 'churches are not essential', not merely the semantic equivalent.   The faux obtuseness tactic of 'it does not say that' is oft used when one is in denial after being shown to be wrong.   Note the absence of explanation as to why, just the mere declaration of denial.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.139  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.138    6 years ago

I've often gotten the "it does not say that" reply when arguing that separation of church & state is in the Constitution. You are correct that some use that tactic when they are demonstrably erroneous. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.140  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @4.1.139    6 years ago

This especially happens with the Bible.   Point out obvious (blatantly obvious) passages such as:

Exodus 21:20-21 New Living Translation (NLT) 20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. 21 But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.

And some will still deny that slavery (the owning of a human being as property) was never condemned as immoral by God but, rather, was condoned.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
4.1.141  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.140    6 years ago

Sometimes there is the justification that since it's god, then God can do whatever god wants. Basically, God lays out the rules, but doesn't follow them himself if he doesn't want to. Quite the hypocrisy. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.143  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.142    6 years ago
That sounds like something a complete ass would write.

Or something that I would write when dealing with a complete ass.

Now, if you wish to continue, please provide the quote you claim states the church is not essential.

Yup, see I told you why I would have to write it that way.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.144  Ozzwald  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.138    6 years ago

Seems the demand is for you to find the exact words 'churches are not essential', not merely the semantic equivalent.   The faux obtuseness tactic of 'it does not say that' is oft used when one is in denial after being shown to be wrong.   Note the absence of explanation as to why, just the mere declaration of denial.

Wow, dude, you hit the nail on the head with Texan.  Bummer I can only like your comment once.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.146  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.145    6 years ago
Simple thing, and something you stated the Bible says. Show me where the Bible says churches are nonessential.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself.  You've been shown, over and over, you know you're wrong so now you're playing with semantics.  You are making yourself look like a 5 year old throwing a tantrum.

If you want to argue further, why don't you show where the bible says you need one.  But we both know you won't, because you can't, so your childish replies are along the lines of "you made the claim", which I did and provided title and verse to it. 

You're next claim is, "but it doesn't say church specifically, so you can't prove it".  Completely ignoring the FACT that the quote tells you to pray/worship PRIVATELY, NOT AROUND OTHER PEOPLE.  But it doesn't say church, since churches are well know for being secluded with nobody else in the vicinity...right?????

What is the next non-argument that you're going to make???  Is it that the bible does say to worship only in a church?  OF COURSE NOT, because it doesn't say that.  Can you provide any evidence to support your claim?  You haven't yet, so I doubt you can. 

But if anything comes of all this, maybe it will be for you to do even a little research before spouting off.  Personally I doubt it.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.148  Ozzwald  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.147    6 years ago
Matthew 18:20

IF you gather I am there.  FAIL...

Hebrews 10:25

Gathering in the morning, nothing to do with worship.  FAIL...

Psalms 150:1 - 127:6

Having to go all the way back to the old testament?  I thought the new testament over rode it.  It is also not an instructable requiring worship only in his sanctuary.  Closer, so lower case fail.....

1 Timothy 3:15

How to behave in o church???  back to FAIL!!!

Psalms 122:1

Translation, "Yay!  Let's go to church!".  No mandate, FAIL....

Nothing you quoted says you must worship in a church.  Only one of your quotes even came close to addressing it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.149  TᵢG  replied to  Ozzwald @4.1.148    6 years ago

Seems you are required to deliver a quote that not only suggests that it is actually good to pray in private rather than be part of a public display at church but must use the exact words 'churches are not essential'.   Yet on the flip side —the rebuttal that would show that churches are essential— not only are those exact words not required, but the entire argument is equivocated down to simply passages "about churches". 

Texan @4.1.47 ☞ You want some quotes? From the Bible? About churches? Okay.

This is pathetic.   A perfect example of why it is best to stop arguing once an argument is lost.  

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
4.1.151  Ozzwald  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.149    6 years ago
This is pathetic.   A perfect example of why it is best to stop arguing once an argument is lost.

He never will, it is almost....like...what would happen if someone (anyone, no one in particular) were getting paid for this.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5  TᵢG    6 years ago
"I believe atheism is the least plausible of all the theologies. It is clearly so contrary to what is possible. The idea that all this universe always existed, created itself? I mean, talk about the violation of human rationality."

An argument from incredulity.   The key problem with this argument is that there is no escaping the concept of undesigned complexity.  

If the universe requires a designer (because it is too complex to 'just exist') then by the very same logic, the designer requires a designer.

This infinite regress problem of designers designing designers is side-stepped by theology with the declaration that 'God has always existed'.    But this declaration produces an even greater problem:  the eternal existence of the most complex sentient entity possible — unfathomable complexity that 'just exists'.

No matter what, logic always brings us to the inexplicable conclusion that unfathomable complexity either evolved over time or simply 'just exists'.    To wit, merely declaring 'God did it' shuts down all logic and simply declares magic.


If God 'just exists' is acceptable as an answer, then one could declare anything 'just exists'.   For example, one could declare a reality where energy interacts on its own and forms patterns over time that we view as meaningful.   For example, the formation of a star and a solar system by a process of gravity collecting cosmic gas and dust into orbs with the largest of the orb spontaneously igniting a chain reaction that emits light and heat for the orbs (planets) that orbit it.

Instead of the most complex entity 'just existing', the above scenario posits that energy (or something lower) 'just exists' and interacts over time to produce patterns.   Complexity, in this case, emerges ... it does not simply 'just exist'.   And this has the added conceptual advantage of being evidenced.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
6  Perrie Halpern R.A.    6 years ago

Pragers whole argument falls apart here:

Without the evangelical community, we will no longer have liberty. From before the birth of America, liberty has been the cornerstone belief because it was a cornerstone Christian value. The founders engraved a liberty-affirming verse from the Bible (Leviticus 25:10) in the Liberty Bell.

Well, the self-proclaimed expert on Judaism kind of blew it. If we are using Leviticus 25:10 as the cornerstone of our liberty, then it doesn't belong to evangelicals, but to the Jews, since they actually wrote the book, something that Prager seems to have missed. He seems to feel no need to give congratulations to the actual people who wrote it, but rather be the good kiss ass that he is. Everything else from that point on is nothing more than a hodgepodge justification for selfishness about the lockdown and confusing that as liberty. No one can have liberty if it steps on another man's toes. Something our founding father's understood when they wrote the constitution. 

As for belief in an afterlife or not... God or not.... does it really matter if we can't be good to each other in this lifetime? Prager seems to have no value in that. 

 
 

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