The moderates have no voice.
The moderates have no voice with the extreme left and right battling with each other.
Do any other moderates feel this way?
Does the access to social media make things worse?
What are your thoughts?
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I consider myself politically moderate. To liberals, I am right-wing. Being a lifer for the GOP, I'm respected by those on the right, but those a little further along the continuum don't really see eye to eye with me.
I am socially liberal, and fiscally conservative. When driving home the point that the black community has been getting a bad deal for 400 years, the left is silent, and some on the right politely, if unenthusiastically, agree. When I attempt to explain that a growing economy will make the pie larger for all of us to share in, the liberals come with their erroneous treatises of how Reaganomics really didn't work, followed by a pejorative comment on how I'm right wing.
I get it, but it doesn't stop me.
If you have a message, keep at it.
"Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" are conservatives.
You can't be a liberal if you are not for economic justice.
No, you can have whatever beliefs and opinions you want.
All I am saying is that liberals support economic justice.
All I am saying is that liberals support economic justice.
No, John. That's NOT what you said.
THIS is what you said:
You can't be a liberal if you are not for economic justice.
Thus, stanching the possibility of civil debate. You immediately took to labeling, and oversimplified your opinion so as not to invite discourse.
What "IS" economic justice anyway !
I'm not saying you necessarily are a bad person if you are not for economic justice, you are just not a liberal.
I'm curious about that myself. I would like to see everybody with a job and only truly, needy people getting government services such as SNAP. However, I'm not such an asshole that I don't realize that taxes go towards the roads I drive on to work, that government was responsible for the electric lights I read under when I was a kid, and that mail service brings me my bills. I also appreciate the government agencies that make sure I drink clean water and eat food that won't kill me.
I get confused by the labels. I wish somebody would tell me who I am
Good question I’m pretty sure John is opposed to a flat tax rate that would promote economic equality.
I think I shall try to stop pigeon holing and labeling people.
Except for bible thumpers.
I haven't been bothered since I threw the Mormons off my porch
not sure....apparently liberal ideology, so whatever it is I think I will pass
Why should billionaies pay the same tax rate as somone who is just above the poverty line? Lowering taxes for the rich doersnt create jobs because it doesnt stimulate demand among the conusmers that drive the economy.
Weath is not a right.
There are those whose income puts them in a privileged investing class that the rest of society does not have access to. When it takes money to make money, the less money you have, the more disadvantaged you are. A flat tax does nothing to address that. Lower income folks will continue to only have access to investment tools that yield lower results than the tools available to those in the top tier.
CURRENT ADVOCACY POSITION
The Catholic bishops of the United States believe building a just economy that works for all encompasses a wide range of issues, including food security and hunger , work and joblessness , homelessness and affordable housing , and tax credits for low-income families , as well as protecting programs that serve poor and vulnerable people throughout the federal budget .
A CATHOLIC FRAMEWORK FOR ECONOMIC LIFE ( EN ESPAÑOL )
Why should the rich pay the same tax rate as the proof when that idea doesn't create jobs? We are a very interconnected society and the idea of a flat tax rate doesn't work. It is beloved by libertarians who reject the concepts of macroeconomics.
What Ponzi scheme targets the middle class?
It's hard to argue with that list
Slightly disingenuous.
In 2016 the top 1% made about 21% of the total income and paid about 40% of the total federal income tax.
The beans just don't add up to support your contention based on the top 1%. Maybe for the top 0.01% .....
You just described the extreme wealth inequality in the US. The economics are so biased that those are the people who benefit from the current economic situation. You can't tax the middle class when they are barely making ends meet.
Federal entitlements are EARNED and ALWAYS deserved.
Only based on the ideals of a wackadoodle progressive platform.
Besides my comment was speaking to a flat tax rate. The group mentioned is paying nearly TRIPLE what a flat tax would likely be right now. Only in the wacky, wacky world of progressivism is that an inequality as you described.
This liberal believes you should earn your own money. I think most of us do
If you give the rich a tax cut, either the middle class pays more when their income hasn't increased, you cut services or the deficit explodes. Why should the richest 5% pay less when they are the ones who benefit from the current economy?
The idea of a flat tax ignores the idea that our economy is a closed system. What is the benefit for the other 95% if the richest 5% get a tax cut?
Yes. Thank you
John,
I do believe that Jonathan said he was a moderate, not a liberal. Your comment makes no sense.
If the tax cut is in the form of a corporate rate cut, it means lower prices for consumers, more research and development as well as plant expansion which creates more jobs there and for those building the expansion, and wage and benefit increases for existing workers. This won’t happen w/o rate cuts and a temporary tax holiday on oversees money won’t work either. It has to be fixed, permanent, so effective business planning can be done. Companies don’t pay corporate income taxes, employees and consumers do.
I think the most interesting fact is that between "conservatives", "liberals" and "moderates", the exact same percent have needed food stamps, 17% of each group. And when it comes to those who have benefited from a major entitlement program at some point in their lives the groups have nearly equal shares of self-identifying conservatives (57%), liberals (53%) and moderates (53%). (The programs were Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, unemployment benefits and food stamps.)
So while the right likes to demonize the left claiming they are the "entitlement" crowd, they themselves are using entitlements just as often.
And when you look at States as a whole, the ones run by Republicans who have a majority of Republican voters are the most reliant on federal subsidies. Republicans love subsidies when they go to coal companies, oil & gas and farmers while demonizing the supposed "lazy" Democrat States that are the ones actually paying more than they take in entitlements.
So really the debate shouldn't be just left versus right but a debate over which subsidies are actually helping people get off entitlements and which are simply enabling them to continue living on our tax dollars. Personally I prefer the programs that get people off unemployment by retraining them in the jobs of the future, not simply subsidizing dirty and expensive coal companies to go back into business keeping people poor while also polluting our air.
See, there you go, Trout...a liberal (Trout) and a conservative (me) agree on something. Hope that helps, Kathleen.
Well unlike you i understand why a flat tax will never work. It certainly isn't for the reasons you mention. It will never work because the people sucking off the government tit the most right now would actually have to start PAYING and not getting PAID. They would be screaming like little babies at the prospect of actually paying something that represents a fairer share.
And honestly, i don't have a problem with them not paying more taxes but don't try to stroke me like they are being mistreated and paying too much right now. Nothing could be further from the truth
And what remains is the middle class, the ones really getting boned either way. Thank god for the middle class. We do the work for the rich and we pay taxes for the poor. Then we get to hear all this nonsense about the rich not paying enough or the poor paying too much.
Crazy!
Ah, shoot, Trout. Why?
Bingo.
I am assuming by the poor you are only talking about those who don't have jobs at the current time because, the WORKING poor do pay into the system, usually more than the rich....percentage wise. Yes, they do get things like food stamps and, energy assistance but, they also pay taxes, just like you and, they probably pay more in taxes than you.
I think this part is untrue. Isn't it more like made 75% of the total income?
Economic justice to you seems to be equal results while economic justice to me is equal opportunity
I don't believe we're equal nor do I believe we all have equality in life, but I believe we all have opportunities and if we take advantage of those opportunities, our children can be in a better position to take advantage of the opportunities afforded to them, but if we don't, our children will always have less opportunity, only because they have to start from a position their parents left them with.
What I find fascinating is immigrants, like the Indians who run small stores, live in the back and send their children to college to become doctors and other professional occupations. I've met a few over the last few years. You have to really admire these people for taking advantage of the opportunities afforded to them.
And at the same time, I see those who only purchase products from the stores, throwing their money away, wasting their time and leaving their children with nothing because they let their opportunities pass them by leaving their children starting right where the parents started.
Why are we not equal? Are you more equal than I am or vice versa? I thought we were all born equal
It may say in the Bible we are all equal in God's eyes, but you and I know we are not all equal. Some are much smarter than others, some are far better looking, some are born into families of wealth.
We may be equal in a Spiritual perspective, but from a realistic prospective, we are all different, some more equal than others as they say. This is my opinion.
Christian rock is an oxymoron
You may be smarter than me but I bet I'm better looking!
So we balance each other out
IMO, we all equal and deserve to be treated as equal
No offense epistte, but that is a ridiculous statement in my opinion. Why would wealth not be a right if a person was very successful in their lives. Maybe you mean wealth is not a right for not being successful in your life, but wealth is the fruit of your work, why else would you want to succeed?
This is the mentality of Socialism. In Denmark, the so-called happiest people in the world, ambition is not celebrated. Denmark also has the highest rate of suicide. Without a purpose in life, whether it be to become wealthy or to dedicate your life in helping find solutions to the world's ills, is the life blood to true happiness.
It doesn't make any difference Tessylo. The objective is to help people to realize the cup is half full instead of it's half empty, success comes from having goals and working to achieving them instead of just existing in this world.
Are you offended when you see someone driving a bigger better car than you? There will always be people who are far wealthier than you or I. Just be thankful they are paying the bulk of the country's bills and we are paying a much lower amount. Work to help others realize their potential instead of wasting our time worrying about how much more someone else is making.
Well, in the end, do they? Once they file, there are certain tax incentives, dependent care, Earned Income Credit, etc. A friend of mine with 2 children was paying in around 4K per year and she was getting a refund of $8-$10K.
I'm not saying this is a bad thing either way, but getting more back than was withheld is not 'paying taxes'. As a single upper middle class earner, I pay far more in and get far less back.
I'm not sure that is the total sum of it IceMan. I think a lot of Liberals realize there are people who will never amount to anything, no matter what we can do for them. Some are just plain worthless and some are handicapped in other ways they are unable to overcome.
As I see it, some Liberals think we should bring these people up by tearing others down and then some see it as helping these people survive by having some sort of minimum living wage. Even Thomas Friedman made this suggestion and I have the greatest admiration for him.
Do I know the answer? No. I hope we are able to come to some equitable solution to the problem the poor who without any fault of their own can live a decent life. I am against Socialism basically because as I see it in the end it completely takes away the ambitions of the people who live under it.
I think we should look at the number of children who are growing up without fathers in their lives and the number of mothers without husbands in their lives and center more attention on promoting families. Children raised in families have a far greater potential to live a life with poverty.
Thank you for going to the trouble of providing the information Dismayed Patriot in those polls or studies as they may be. I would like to expand on them, but time is a factor at the moment and will not be able to do so at this time.
But I would like to see a study as to the demographics of the different states. The bigger picture would include that information as well. You can't just flat out say Alabama is at the bottom without studying why.
Like reported income? I know far to many people that are self employed in one way or another and pay little if anything in taxes and that self employment is extremely varied , buying selling and repairing mobile homes, general contracting, commercial fishing. If it pays cash it disappears.
Well whoopee doo!!! I have a friend who was raised in a two bedroom house without closets and three brothers. He is now in the privileged investing class.
I agree 100% it would also build the capital of the country as now there is an incentive to not always upgrade on a whim and the money is saved for a period. The barter system would flourish, but it would not equal the cash business that is rampant today.
The whole comment was perfect.
How come history does not back up the contention of lower cost in the corporation means lower cost on the product. It ends up every time as simply greater profit for the well placed. Tract housing has been building with illegal labor for years and they save a ton of money doing so, when did the cost of a house drop?
For the first line, no cigar.
For the last line I know we are not all equal, but still deserve to be treated as equal.
Yes it does.
Are you offended when you see someone driving a bigger better car than you? There will always be people who are far wealthier than you or I. Just be thankful they are paying the bulk of the country's bills and we are paying a much lower amount. Work to help others realize their potential instead of wasting our time worrying about how much more someone else is making.
No.
Bullshit - we are paying more. They are not paying the bulk of the country's bills
I don't care how much someone else is making - the rich need to pay their fair share - plain and simple.
The equality a civil society tries to reflect is one where everyone has the same opportunities regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, faith or lack thereof. Opportunities should not be denied anyone based on those specifics. To say "We don't serve your kind here." or "We don't hire your kind here" based not on skill or ability but on some in-born quality like skin color or gender is what we must fight against. We've come a long way in America but we have a ways to go before we are a nation of equality. There is systemic racial disparities in our justice system, there is still a gender pay gap, there are still LGTBQ Americans being denied the rights afforded everyone else like most States allow employers to fire people based on their sexual orientation. Only 18 States have passed laws banning that kind of blatant discrimination.
So no, we aren't all able to do calculus in our heads or slam dunk on a 10 ft basketball hoop, but we should all get the opportunity to try out for the job if we want to and if we prove our ability to do the job in question we shouldn't be denied that job just because someone doing the hiring has a deep seated prejudice. And when it comes to government benefits such as marriage licenses, access to a life partner/spouses health choices as any other spouse, tax benefits, spousal social security benefits and standard transfer of estates to surviving gay widows just like it is for straight widows.
I'd take a 6 pack over a fish any day....but that's just me.....
You can't be a liberal if you are not for economic justice.
How do you define liberal? One who isn't conservative? How do you define conservative?
Your statement is specious at best.
I know it's popular, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.
New country music is popular...but it sounds like Top 40 these days and that makes no sense
I'd actually consider a flat tax if every transaction including capital gains was included in it. Those that support it are excluding capital gains. That would essentially mean that almost all the taxes would be collected by the middle class, but the wealthy and extremely wealthy would pay very little. And no I don't adhere to the theory that investment is worth more than either labor or entrepreneurship the idea that we do that now is insane and we need to flip it on its head.
When has that ever happened? All I hear from the right is that the obvious, proven systemic disparities in our justice system and society in general are mere figments of the lefts imagination. When some black Americans try and point out the extreme disparity in the justice system by proclaiming "Black Lives Matter" they get vitriol thrown in their faces and messages of "All Lives Matter" instead of any real examination of the very real problem that exists in America. When they say "Black Lives Matter" it's not saying other lives don't matter, it's like defenders of an endangered species proclaiming "Save our Bald Eagles!" isn't claiming other birds lives don't matter, it's merely trying to bring attention to a very real issue where one group of birds is threatened far more than the prolific pigeons who can survive just about anywhere.
And as for the larger pie analogy, that would be great if it was a pie all Americans shared in, but as it is the proposals coming from the right continue to be the flawed trickle down economic model with 50% of the proposed tax cuts going to the top 1%. If the Republicans were serious about helping the middle class they wouldn't be giving away our money to the wealthiest Americans and corporations who never actually pay the 35% tax rate due to all the loopholes at their disposal allowing most companies to pay an average of 15% tax rate. The proposed tax cut does nothing to close those loopholes. And you likely get the "treatise" on Reaganomics because it was a complete failure, the federal debt almost tripled, from $997 billion in 1981 to $2.857 trillion in 1989. But a lot of rich people got even richer. I remember the middle class incomes at the time and the recession Reaganomics caused, why would anyone try it again? As Albert Einstein once pointed out, the real definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why won't Republicans just give middle income America the tax cuts they are using as the carrot to get a vote on the tax cut without giving the other 50% of the cut to the top 1%? It would at least be trying something different and is something we can all agree they deserve.
When has that ever happened?
WHEN I SAY IT, because WHEN I SAY IT, it's coming from me, that "RWNJ (I'm not RW) Trump supporter (I didn't vote for him)". It's a matter of the approach, DP. There's no approach from one side to the other. If someone on one side sees something they agree with, they first check who it was that said it. If it's someone that they "didn't expect to think that way", they'll pass it by, even if they agree with it. That's what I'm talking about.
The rest of your post contains your opinion, with very selective soundbites that really don't cut to the issue, but I respect your right to air them.
First, I never said you or anyone else is a RWNJ or a Trump supporter but I get that you're claiming others have. You did however generalize by claiming " the left is silent" making it appear that no one on the left has ever agreed with you when you vocalize your support for black Americans. Considering how vocal most on the left are of this issue I found that generalization hard to believe while also claiming "the right politely, if unenthusiastically, agree." which I also find hard to believe. It appears you are in fact taking sides while claiming to be a moderate. Either you have a very unusual "left" and "right" that you've been exposed to that doesn't represent the sides I've seen on social media, or you're attempting to deflect and defend the right while disparaging the left which isn't very moderate at all.
No, they don't pay the 35%. However, there isn't one corporation that has moved to our area that hasn't received a tax cut because they bring JOBS and jobs are what is important to us and our economy. Corporations expect to get a tax cut. They abide by the federal pay-grade, people are employed, they buy houses, shop locally, schools are open and improved, contribute to our social services, etc etc etc.
Very few corporations pay at the 35% rate and the competition to lure them into a middle class city is fierce thus the tax rate is a bargaining point.
I'm not claiming anything. I'm giving you my firsthand experience of the left refusing to commiserate with me, even when I agree with them. The right is polite, because they'll be coming back later to agree with some other assertion that I've made. This goes into my experience that there are those that won't communicate with me unless it is to disagree and insult.
And yes, I am biased. Everyone has a bias, including you. I encourage you to show your bias in a productive and energetic way, instead of telling me that I'm "deflecting and defending".
Good day.
I support anything that WILL bring jobs into areas that need them, which, even if there are plenty of jobs in your area it still needs jobs there. What I don't support is something that smacks of Reaganomics, Trickle Down or, anything else that will be nothing more than a hand out to the ubber rich and, allow them to still put whatever savings they get from it into an off shore account, this current tax bill and, most of the "replacements" the Right in Congress want for the ACA is nothing more than such a hand out to the rich.
Tell you what - create a new Group.
Make it private.
Invite me.
You may not like what I have to say, but you will find me exhaustingly civil.
I'm new at NT and don't have a lot of creds - but I submit a sample of my work below.
States and Firearm Data
Start small - build a group of diverse but civil posters. Then when you have a critical mass of matched sparring partners, take it to the public forums.
Please PM me if you decide to give it a try.
I'm a bit bored with "Your mother wears Army boots" "So's yours."
I like some things from each party and don't like most of either sides stuff. Seems I have to pick the least bad and know I won't like a lot of their stuff
While it eliminates a lot of topics I simply avoid anything political like the plague. Doesn't help the problem, but makes my NT life easier.
I haven't seen anything on NT that's not political
I've seen some nice articles about Chinese art and some cool photos.
lol
Ha!
I love it. I was in China this spring for 3 weeks. Amazing experience. Bad air pollution, though.
"A horse I do"
Very punny
I read your seed. I'm flabberghasted
Lol it requires some effort to find them
I belong to a few groups but I don't think anybody posts anything in them
"I am willing to commit to 5 non political articles each day"
That's outrageous!
I will comment on them
I would write something but I lost my mojo
If people are making non-political articles and seeds political, then they are assholes
Hey TG you gotta get your mojo workin'...
LOL! Thanks for that!
I need something to write about
Any time, friend.
Hmmm I'm going to go have lunch. Restaurant reviews?
It’s true that most content goes to news and politics forum but there are plenty of other categories that one can seed articles to on virtually any topic should one choose. News and politics gets twice the traffic of all the others combined but others like history, religion, art, world news, meta, sports, business are out there. They could toward the five seed limit (three for me) so some concentrate what’s limited to news and politics and put the rest into similar groups.
You can only eat "green chilis" if they are REAL Green chilis from Hatch.
Explain
I was gonna comment on that seed but all the good puns were used up
Ah....those little beauties you see in my avatar ARE Hatch green chiles, shipped fresh directly from Hatch, New Mexico. We had a roasting party. Winter is coming and so is green chile, beans, tortillas, and fried potatoes
Let's say I write an article about green chiles. Someone comes in and makes a political statement about liberals don't know squat about green chiles. There. A political statement in an article that has nothing to do with Hatch chile.
Now I've got an idea....
I'm just not seeing very many non-political articles/seeds. Maybe it's the groups I belong to. They don't seem to get a lot of activity
I never did pay much attention to the political environment until it became apparent that the path I was travelling through this life on had become steeper and the footing less secure, I started to slip and it became obvious that paying close attention was the key to survival. It is not a fantasy game to realize there is a darkness creeping slowly in the mist and being aware was the first line of defense. I am sure that the ugly times in human history came about where there were some that gleefully welcomed it arrival, others that were dismayed at what was on the horizon and a great many that were blissfully unaware until it was upon them. The right wing brings the darkness, beware.
I loved having the chilies roasted on Federal BLVD in Denver freezing them for the winter. I can't get them in FL at all, they have agricultural check points. I am surprised given the huge Mexican population here that no one is growing chilies here. I did buy seeds from Hatch and they thrived although they were supposed to be medium heat and were in fact scorchers, I should try again.
I think a lot of it is simply that politics is functioning at a fever pitch, there are so many issues on boil constantly that you simply can't take your eye off the ball or you will get it kicked into the side of your head. Does anyone remember a time when politics so thoroughly dominated discourse?
Hatch are part of South Western US, not Mexico. I doubt if the Mexicans in Florida even know what a Hatch chile is.
My in-laws live right off of Federal. They go to Walmart and get their chiles and get them roasted
Been through Hatch many times, I know quite well where it is, curiously most of the Mexican population sports license tags from Tennessee and i expect New Mexico was part of the route there. I did have a girlfriend that hailed from N.M. and she would get asked in all seriousness if she needed a green card to work. I really miss Green Chili casserole.
You aren't looking very much then. Look on the home page, review the choices in the left column.
If it cools down next weekend, I want Mr Giggles to make some green chile.
It's better than the smell of pot burning....almost
I have
Close, but no cigar.
huh?
My in-laws are green chile experts. I think I know what I'm talking about
Do they smoke them - in a pipe/paper? Didn't think so.
I love the Green's and sometimes love the Red's. But, they've got a new one that has been mated/hybrid with a chili from India that will tear you a new azzwhole. Haven't tried it and really don't have a desire for self-mutilation.
No Habaneros????? Missing an important cog in your daily mouth-washing
I am guessing that the hatch chilies in the can don't float your boat! That is as close as I can get!
Then you flag their comment as the author (for being off topic) and the moderators remove that comment. That simple.
I'm not a flaggot. I know that's how things work around here, but I don't like using the flag button unless it's really egregious. Name-calling is no big deal to me. I just want you all to acknowledge that it happens on your side, too
You win. I have no clue how they roast them. They live in Denver
If you think the Moderates have no voice, then you have not been paying attention to the Republican Party's leadership. Throughout my life, EVERY leader in Congress, with the exception of Newt Gingrich, has been a Moderate. This includes the current leadership of Ryan and McConnell. Just pay attention to what is said and what is done. Remember, how many times they spoke of their desire to repeal Obamacare? Do you remember what actually happened? When it has come up for a vote in the Senate, it fails every single time. Do you remember just about every threat of a government shutdown after Republicans threatened to vote a certain way on a budgetary issue? Republicans backed down almost every single time. That is not a principled or Conservative action, that is a weak-minded Moderate action of a group trying to be accepted rather than doing what is right.
This is probably true. I found this post interesting because Republicans have had this division for a few years but now that Sanders ran his primary, Democrats have "caught up". Now there's a strong faction of Democrats mad because almost all the Establishment politicians are moderates not really engaged with the battles for which they were elected.
I'd even say part of how we got Trump was we have a huge split between Establishment and not - and Trump got the not votes across the political spectrum. People are just fed up. And Trump was able to shock both parties first by beating all the GOP rivals then beating Clinton.
It's very hard to say where we can go from here. So not only do we have polarization across parties, but we have severe polarization now within both parties. I can only hope that somehow and some way we can finally get someone who actually has leadership skills and can help us go forward.
I think you're confusing failures to keep political promises with ideology. Politicians tell the voters what they want to hear to get elected but the only true ideology in Washington is serving the Big Donors.
No, I am not confusing political failures with being Moderate. I am point to the complete inaction to try to follow through with what each candidate promised on the campaign trail. You are correct that they promise a lot to just get elected. But, EVERY Republican promised to repeal the PPACA, and the Senators are backing away from those promises faster than the Concorde's max speed. And, it has nothing to do with disagreeing with the bills that have been presented. It has everything to do with trying to be ACCEPTED. Look at McCain and how he acted up to the point he cast his vote against the proposed bills. He kept talking like he was going to actually support the bills, then talked to the Democrats and cast his vote against the bills. During the entire time, the Democrats kept ACCEPTING him and stroking his ego. He will end up going the same way as Arlen Specter did. He will join the Democrats in order to get re-elected and lose at some point.
There is a problem with being moderate in todays political climate. It is akin to playing in the middle of the highway. You get run over by both sides.
There you go! Same with independents.
The moderates have a voice. As do non-moderates. But like any muscle, it has to be used or it will atrophy. Keep using your voice, even if it is in the shower. You will eventually be heard.
Steve,
I totally agree with you. I have found that most moderates and independents don't say much. Then they are frustrated when government is dominated by the two parties.
BTW about words.. They are all thrown around as if they have no meaning. Being a Democrat doesn't make you a liberal, or a leftist or a socialist or a communist anymore than being a Republican doesn't make you a conservative, right wing, or a fascist. These words get thrown around interchangeably and it's just plain wrong.