Trump Will Recognize Jerusalem As Israel’s Capital And Announce U.S. Embassy Move
President Donald Trump will officially recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital on Wednesday and will direct the State Department to begin planning to relocate the U.S. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. The decision, which was confirmed by three senior administration officials, marks a controversial shift in U.S. policy that threatens to further inflame Israeli-Palestinian tensions, as well as provoke outrage across the region.
One thing I am sick of hearing, is the lie of a "Peace Process" between Israel and the rest of the middle east. There is no "peace process", during my entire 49 years, there has never been peace for the Israeli's, it is in a continuous state of combat, hate, and war. This move by President Trump will not cause anything more to happen then that which Hama's and the rest of Israeli's enemies already have planned for, they will just use this as a convenient excuse.
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Would a Mod please clean up this pathetic mess, and move it to "foreign news" where it belongs?
Thank you!
This article has been categorized correctly. D.
Bob, wake up.
President Trump is the President of the United States, what he is doing today is both U.S. news, and U.S. politics.
Stay on topic, or take your pathetic comments and move on to a different article.
Aside from being a YUGE diplomatic error, this move has consequences that Trump very likely did not consider (as usual!)
Trump Plan to Move Embassy From Tel Aviv to Jerusalem Poses Challenges
Tell me bob, do you really think this will screw up the "peace process"? If so, let me ask you: What peace process?? The "peace process" has been going on for the last 50 years bob... they are no closer now than they ever have been.
I am "Bob" or "Bob Nelson". Thank you.
Who’s PJ Proudhon?
PJ Proudhon
Who’s PJ Proudhon?
Wasn't he some guy who used to be on NV in its early days-- an early Beta tester if memory serves?
Skirting the CoC [ph]
Of course this was all done in virtual reality as I recall.
(Unfortunately that sort of thing has become all the rage now-a-days
He's the political/economic theorist that the socialists love to cite as an authority.....
He actually started the Commune movement in lower France.
But then such was usurped by Marx, eventually even taking their name, Communists, from them.
very true..... but then aren't all commies such?
BF,
If you are trying to say that Bob is an antisemite, that is not only incorrect, but borders on skirting. The only reason that I have not removed that comment is because Bob did use that name for a while.
No they are not. Living in China for more than 11 years, I have found that the Chinese, and I must suppose that most of them are Communists, are far from anti-Semitic. In fact they respect and admire Jews, for their intelligence (using Einstein as their example) and business acumen.
Pun intended?
What makes you think he hasn't considered them?
I recently came across an excellent article about skirting the CoC [ph] . It brilliantly describes the behavior of a large portion of NT's membership, including, in my opinion, yourself. I've decided to cease Replying to those members, since nothing useful can come of it.
I bet most of those members you refuse to respond to got tired of your little RBRs and shifting topics within them!
Please explain, Perrie.
You allowed some members to regularly swarm and destroy my seeds, but you intervene very quickly when I post something that seems to me to be fairly innocuous. Please explain...
I recently came across an excellent article about Skirting the CoC [ph] . It brilliantly describes the behavior of a large portion of NT's membership, including, in my opinion, yourself. I've decided to cease Replying to those members, since nothing useful can come of it.
Bob, please stop it with the BF comments. [ph]
Oh, gosh, my life will never be the same!
Whatever shall I do?
Bob,
I do not allow anyone to swarm your articles. All you have to do is flag, and I will check it out. These comments were reported.
Oh... excuse me... It wasn't you. It was a different Mod... who actively participated in the swarming.
I guess you were unaware.......
Do you ever tire of the whining?
What difference does it make?
Liberals have been calling for the driving away of Conservatives since the place started...
Conservatives have been calling for the driving away of Liberals since the place started...
And Perrie built a wonderful wall , we can shoot arrows over it but we cannot actually get AT each other.....
(thank you sweetheart)
So Ethnic Cleansing has been a staple of NT's existence since the place began.
Your description/characterization not mine....
The article I posted was about Bad Faith , Perrie!
If you prefer, I can add an "IMHO":
... or are you forbidding me to reference a thoughtful, cogent article ... on the grounds that it kinda sorta is unkind to Team Red?
Schoom!!!!!!
Right over his head........
No it has not. In fact, it borders on hate speech and frankly I don't recall anyone talking about the expulsion of any group on this site before.
This is all off topic and or meta
Yes and it seems that the seeder has conveniently left the building. Per for the course.
Yes, the seeder had to drive home from work, it is par for the course, it happens every Tues-Fri, go ahead and get used to it...
Good, now PH can take a nap.
I do not see any way I can "mod" or "edit" any comments. I could just tell people to stay on topic, but, I kinda like when conversation branches off is different directions.
Well, of course that's only if they want to provide the best security available. (Which of course has the downside of costing a lot of money).
However, spending all that money is not really necessary. For example, they could model the new Jerusalem embassy after the one in Libya (Benghazi)-- that one was considerably cheaper to build!
Yeah but this is not hillarys state department who thought getting new portraits of obama for the embassies and hybrid cars was more important that diplomatic security.
Well, while we're in the process of trying to derail the conversation, let's not forget that vehicles burning fossil fuels do have a deleterious effect on the environment.
Do we really want to pollute the air quality of a land holy to 3 religions?
He was most likely talking about the State Dept. purchasing electric vehicles and charging stations in Vienna, Austria. Instead of spending more on security.
Or they could go the full Monty and build one like the one in Iraq. Over 700 MILLION with another 100 MILLION 'upgrade'. Although I wonder if the contractor we pick would get away with human trafficking to keep the cost down that 'low'.
I seriously doubt that the US could find a large enough piece of land in Jerusalem that would allow for a big enough 'kill zone'.
One thing to keep in mind, however. Trump did not move the embassy to Jerusalem. He only said he would.
What fun, we can all watch Jerusalem burn for Christmas! The light show should be awesome!
Right, because up until now, that has never happened, right?
In truth, it has been relatively quiet recently. If you are that eager for more violence, you should move there soon. Other presidents didn't do such a thing because they were intelligent enough to see the inevitable violence that would ensue, while you gain a big fat zero. Of course, no one anticipated seeing a moron as president.
I can't help but wonder how the people who have ALREADY paid for travel to the 'Holy City' for the holiday are feeling about now. Or how about the people of Bethlehem, who rely on tourism, are reacting to their throats being cut. The State Department just put out a travel advisory for the West Bank.
If NOTHING ELSE, Trump's timing SUCKS.
In other words, American foreign policy as well as Israeli policy should be based on fear. Got it
Why not ask the Trump 'Administration'? THEY are the ones that announced the travel advisory.
Oh and BTFW, I suppose the Muslim ban isn't about fear.
Pfffft.
Doubtful.
What Muslim ban?
MUST be something he invented in his mind.
I haven't hard tell of a Muslim ban.
I haven't seen a case involving a Muslim ban, have you?
You're missing the point, which I had thought was obvious. Under the status quo, Israel already has lots of violence. So if you thought the status quo was preventing violence, you aren't very informed about events over there.
There's no such thing. Even the people who are fighting in court defeat the ban aren't arguing that it's a Muslim ban - and with good reason! 90% of the world's Muslims are not impacted by the ban. Instead, they are arguing that it's discrimination based on nationality.
No, it's you who are missing the point. Considering that there is already violence, is adding more going to help? When you see a nest of angry hornets, do you step up and piss on it?
Only if you're a redneck, lol.
Bob,
I echo your sentiments on the "Peace Process". I would add that this was merely a tool being used by the Arab/Muslim world, under the auspices of the Arab League, to lever their influence over the West, using Israel as a pin cushion.
The world is moving forward, OPEC is being marginalized and the true durable conflict in the Middle East - Sunni vs. Shi'ite - is coming to the fore. Any diplomatic capital that they had with the Palestinians has been squandered. After the thrashing about, they will be relegated to the dustbin of history, and we will all finally be able to move on.
I've said nothing about the "Peace Process", here, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. As far as I know, there's nothing special happening these days, but maybe Special Envoy Jared Kushner will pull a rabbit out of his hat... https://thenewstalkers.com/data/media/0/0/jrSmiley_35_smiley_image.gif','Oh no you don't');">
I agree that big things are happening in the ME these days... and if America would just keep its big fat ass out of the China Shop, there might even be some resolution...
Oh, look at that. That was someone else's comment.
It would be comforting to keep our soldiers out of the region. If we can succeed in supporting our allies without going to war, I think it would be quite beneficial.
I think Trump just wanted to create a reason why his efforts to achieve peace in the region will fail.
Moving the embassy to Jerusalem will provide that reason. When he leaves office having done nothing to bring peace to the Middle East, he will cite the unreasonable reaction to his perfectly logical move of the embassy to Jerusalem as the reason peace "stalled".
John,
There is nothing that will ever bring peace to the Middle East.
That said, Israel might as well have what is rightfully theirs.
Because it's been going so well?
We've been sitting back and doing nothing in the name of peace while Hamas et al continue to terrorize and attack Israel and all parties speak vaguely of some mysterious future peace negotiation that doesn't exist. Meanwhile Israel keeps being put in a position of having to negotiate from weakness instead of strength. They give away land and they get attacked. Everyone moves out of Jerusalem and Israel gets attacked. That strategy is obviously not working.
And that brings up another point-- which has not been discussed much (if at all) on NT. Gaza is a breeding ground for terror. However, it not just directed at Israel-- or their own people.
Gaza borders two countries, not one. The other country is Egypt. And terrorists from Gaza have been sneaking into Egypt and committing horrendous acts of terror against Egyptian civilians.
This recent attack by barbaric terrorists from Gaza has murdered 305 Egyptians-- and there have been many more:
GAZA CITY — The Gaza Strip’s border crossing with Egypt that was due to reopen Saturday will remain closed until further notice following the bloody terrorist attack in neighboring Sinai, an official told AFP.
Friday’s bomb and gun assault on the Rawda mosque near North Sinai provincial capital of El-Arish killed at least 305 people. (Link)
As terrorism from Gaza against Egypt has increased, Egypt has taken frastic steps to kee the terrorists out:
The Egyptian army began expanding its operations Oct. 4 to demolish the homes of civilians in the Egyptian city of Rafah as part of the third stage of building a border buffer zone with the Gaza Strip.
Since October 2014, the Egyptian army has worked on establishing a buffer zone along the border line with Gaza as part of the security plan to destroy tunnels used for smuggling between Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula. The Egyptian government accuses Hamas of using the tunnels to carry out terrorist operations inside Egypt.
Strangely, while all this is going on, we don't hear a peep about this from the self-appointed "human rights advocates" who bash Israel for the horrendous sin of deciding where their own country's capital should be...
M.A. noted, “Army forces including military tanks, armored vehicles and a bulldozer surrounded my house and my neighbors’ without prior warning early on Oct. 5 and raided it. They told me to leave immediately with my family and children so they could destroy my house. I tried to convince them to allow me to go back for my possessions, but one of the soldiers threatened to arrest me and accused me of sheltering terrorists.”
He added, “I cried bitterly when I saw the bulldozer demolishing the house that had taken me 10 years to build in the blink of an eye. I wept because I could not defend myself, my family or our memories and the only place we owned. We cannot find somewhere safe to sleep. We no longer have a house or a country to protect us.”
Don't we have embassies in almost all foreign capitals we have diplomatic relations with?
I think there's a far more relevant question to ask:
Why is every country in the world allowed to decide where embassies should be, except for one?
true.
And don't ALL countries decide what their own capital is?
Anyways, the ONE thing they can't argue us that whatever we have tried over the last 50 years or so hasn't worked.
Time for something different.
I don't agree that there is nothing that will bring peace to the M/E regarding Israel, but on the other hand, Jerusalem was never going to be part of the agreement as far as Israel was concerned. It is the cornerstone of Israel, and it is a false claim of the Arabs that it is theirs. Meca is theirs. Recognizing it as the Capital of Israel and moving our embassy there will not hurt or help peace. There have been many offers of peace that have been turned down already and none of them included giving the Palestinians Jerusalem. So in reality, moving the capital of Israel to Jerusalem, will not change the outcome. What goes on in the West Bank does.
That seems right.
We haven't had peace in the ME for decades. Doing the same old thing isn't working.
When it comes to Israel, we gave them the stick long ago and Trump just gave them the carrot too...
The capital of Israel is Jerusalem since 1980. This is just recognizing that fact.
That is true, but most people don't know that. I operate from that point.
Actually NO. A quick review of the Oslo Accords from the 1990s may help.
Israel begs to differ and according to wiki:
and largest city
So is Israel the only country on the face of the planet that doesn't get to decide which city is its own capital?
Jerusalem has been Israel's capital since 1950.
Can Donald Trump and Bebe Netanyahu be right, and everybody else be wrong?
I would have to say no.
Trump says that locating the US embassy in Jerusalem will move the peace process forward. What is the theory he is working under Perrie?
Did you review the Oslo Accords Perrie? The Israel's and the US BOTH signed them. They CLEARLY state that the issue of Jerusalem was to be negotiated. I don't know about you and the rest but I would sure as hell hope that we keep our word internationally and at home. Many Presidential candidates have made promises that they found out later were untenable and they moved on.
They DID decide, they signed the Oslo Accord, which THEY NEGOTIATED and since then neither side has done the work required to get the job finished. BTFW, TODAY, Jerusalem IS Israel's capital, NOT West Jerusalem. Read the treaty.
Yep, read it. Please point out exactly where it says Israel has to give up Jerusalem or can't use it as its' capital.
The same place where it says that Embassies shall be in Jerusalem. NOWHERE. NO nation has an Embassy in Jerusalem, NOT ONE.
BTW, if you read it, you should acknowledge that it clearly states that Jerusalem as part of future negotiation. In short, in 1995, Israel admits that the question of the status of Jerusalem it was NOT decided and NO agreement existed between the parties. Until an agreement is reached, Jerusalem remains corpus separatum.
Well let's see if we can break that comment down.
In the Declaration of Independence of Israel, it is defined as a JEWISH STATE and it will REMAIN so. Check.
Jerusalem is ALREADY 'her' capital. Sheesh. Check.
Then 'Christ' will be ruling a JEWISH STATE. Check.
Well duh! If 'Christ' is going to be ruling from the TEMPLE Mount and he is a JEW, it would logically be from a TEMPLE, not a Mosque. Check.
I wonder if your 'Christ' will continue the practice of allowing all three Abrahamic religions to worship in Jerusalem.
I'll try to answer that, John. It is rather obvious that the Palestinians have had no intention to negotiate, proven when they walked away from offers of 95% and then 97% of their demands. Even when Israel made concessions towards their demands such as releasing prisoners who had blood on their hands, giving up land for peace, and agreeing to an 11 month moratorium on settlement building that were Palestinian demands, it was to no avail. As well, it is quite obvious that any Palestinian leader who signs a peace deal with Israel may as well put carbon paper under the signature over his death warrant as well. Peace with the Palestinians, which includes Gaza as well, will only be possible when they are in control of what they chant: "Palestine will be free from the river (Jordan) to the sea (Mediterranean)". Faced with this reality, Trump has done what no other POTUS for 20 years has had the balls to do, and that is to show the Arab world (and Iran) that enough is enough, and since they only respect strength before they will capitulate, they will now know that either they had better come to the table and be reasonable or else keep losing more and more.
It really doesn't matter what Trump and Netanyahu says-- or for that matter anyone else.
I wonder if the people who say its not the capital have ever been there. (I have).
The Israeli Prime Minister's office:
The Israeli Supreme Court
The Israeli Parliament (Knesset)
And there are numerous other government offices there.
Fact: The Israeli capital is Jerusalem. And its a functioning government that is situated there. Whatever Trump (or for that matter Theresa May, Macron, Xi Jinping, or even Justin Beiber or anyone else says is irrelevant.
(And the capital can't be moved to Jerusalem-- because its already in Jerusalem!
What makes you think Perrie is able to read Trump's mind? Or do it better than other people here? Just be cause she is "R.A."?
I know-- let's do a poll! Then we can use the results of the poll to broadcast to the world our astute observations about what we know Trump's theory to be!
I know-- let's do a poll! Then we can use the results of the poll to broadcast to the world our astute observations about what we know Trump's theory to be!
What makes you think Perrie is able to read Trump's mind? Or do it better than other people here? Just be cause she is "R.A."?
I know-- let's do a poll! Then we can use the results of the poll to broadcast to the world our astute observations about what we know Trump's theory to be!
BTW I have my own views about why Trump is doing this. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict-- in fact it has nothing to do with any foreign policy matters at all!!!
People tend to repeat their patterns when under fire.
So what is the main tactic Trump has used in the past when criticized? He tries to district attention away from the accusations by bringing up another issue. (A classic "derail"-- maybe we should invite Trump to NT-- I am starting to get bored with the usual trolls here
What is he trying to distract us from? Well, the Mueller investigation has been getting more threatening the last week or two. Is Flynn going to spill the beans? And then the Republicans have nominated a sexual predator for Senate-- and will probably elect him!.
So-- Trump needs to create a distraction for the public...something controversial to catch everyone's attention.
Hmmmm....
____________________________________________________________
*Wipe that innocent expression off your face-- you know who you are....!
Oslo viewed from 2015 - void
By Israel's Ambassador Alan Baker
Amb. Alan Baker, Director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, participated in the negotiation and drafting of the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians, as well as agreements and peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. He served as legal adviser and deputy director-general of Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs and as Israel's ambassador to Canada.
I was in the Knesset in Jerusalem aw well, greeted by Shimon Peres who shook my hand welcoming me and the group I was with.
From the Presidents statement
In making these announcements, I also want to make one point very clear: This decision is not intended, in any way, to reflect a departure from our strong commitment to facilitate a lasting peace agreement. We want an agreement that is a great deal for the Israelis and a great deal for the Palestinians. We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders. Those questions are up to the parties involved.
This is an unambiguous statement, so I see no difficulties.
In Israeli-controlled Israel, ALL faiths are welcome, not just the three Abrahamic ones. Even Atheists and Agnostics, LOL.
The Palestinians now have no reason not to view us as facilitators of Israel's best interest and we can no longer pretend that we aren't, no matter what Trump says.
We sell Israel a crap load of arms and train them to use and repair all of those weapons. Trump just gave BB and his right wing government, the one desire he held most dear.
We know them by their ACTIONS.
The discussion is about Jerusalem, not just Israel. Try to keep up.
Well OSM stated that it would be a 'Christ' controlled Israel and infers that the al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock and the Dome of the Chain would be replaced by some fantasy structure TBD at some latter date but he's SURE that it won't be a Mosque.
OSM's posit didn't seem thoroughly thought though but is sure didn't sound very welcoming to me.
Atheists and agnostics go to Jerusalem to worship? Do tell.
Wow, now THAT'S some cognitive dissonance right there...
Carry on.
Oh, I thought Jerusalem was in Israeli-controlled Israel. I didn't know the reference was exclusive to the Temple Mount. Sorry to confuse you.
Nonsense, America has never in recent history been a natural party, everyone already knows this, so there is nothing new here.
For 22 years various Presidents have signed wavers putting off this move, and for 22 years there has been no peace deal. Continuing the same actions, and expecting a different result is the height of insanity, time for something new.
I didn't say they WOULD go there, I said they would be welcome if they DID (except, of course, the Temple Mount where only one faith is welcome).
From what I've seen on NT, I would say that they are pretty vociferous about their faith being a non-faith, and attempting to establish that all other faiths are a crock of shit. If they really believe in what they are preaching I would say it's pretty close to being a de facto faith if it isn't a de jure one.
Jerusalem REMAINS Israel's capital city.
No, it doesn't state where embassies are to be placed. But it doesn't state anything about not putting one in Jerusalem, either.
And if he didn't do that-- the current "peace process" would have an excellent chance of succeeding...?
(I wonder-- do you know anything about the actual history of the so-called "peace-process" between Israel and the Arabs?)
P.S: The so-called "peace process" didn't start under Trump. (In fact it didn't even start under Obama....)
"marks a controversial shift in U.S. policy"
Why is it controversial ?
Because Other U.S. Presidents didn't have any guts to do the same thing they all thought about, in order to placate irrelevant middle eastern western haters ?
The leaders? of the Palestinian people are a "Waste of Space". They do nothing for anything but themselves.
"they will just use this as a convenient excuse."
What don't they use to get themselves killed anyway.
Why? Because virtually limitless amounts of money from the oil rich Arab states have gone into anti-Israel propaganda for many, many years.
That's why!!!
(The Arabs defined recognizing Israel's historic capital as "controversial"-- and the overly politically correct westerners bought the lie hook line and sinker!
Very likely much of that coming from our "allies" in the fight against islamist terrorism. I wonder what'll happen if they decide to totally step away from that.
In 1995, the Jersualem Embassy Act - upon which Trump's action is based and authorized - was passed by the House on a bipartisan vote of 374-37, and by the Senate on a bipartisan vote of 93-5.
You may expect today that long-time congress members who voted for this thing will attack Trump for doing something outrageous, insane, foolish, etc.
22 years of putting off the obvious have accomplished exactly zero. It's continuing with the same policy and expecting a different result that would be outrageous, insane, and foolish.
Obama endorses Jerusalem as capital of Israel.
The Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 [1] is a public law of the United States passed by the 104th Congress on October 23, 1995. It was passed for the purposes of initiating and funding the relocation of the Embassy of the United States in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem , no later than May 31, 1999, and attempted to withhold 50 percent of the funds appropriated to the State Department specifically for "Acquisition and Maintenance of Buildings Abroad" as allocated in fiscal year 1999 until the United States Embassy in Jerusalem had officially opened. [2] The act also called for Jerusalem to remain an undivided city and for it to be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel. Israel's declared capital is Jerusalem, but this is not internationally recognized, pending final status talks in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict . The United States has withheld recognition of the city as Israel's capital. The proposed law was adopted by the Senate (93–5), [3] and the House (374–37). [4]
Since passage, t he law has never been implemented , because of opposition from Presidents Clinton , Bush , and Obama [5] , who view it as a Congressional infringement on the executive branch 's constitutional authority over foreign policy; they have consistently claimed the presidential waiver on national security interests.
Obviously, President Trump doesn't believe it to be a waiver to national security issues.
It took a President with GUTS.
BTW, it's gonna be years before we have an embassy there
But the violence this decision unleashes will be here much, much sooner.
May I quote JFK?
“Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate."
I believe it's the first part of that which concerns this long overdue implementation of a decision made in 1995
So what else is new?
Well we know you aren't talking about five deferment Donny.
How will this help the average American taxpayer?
I don't know. How did outing Libya's leader help the average US taxpayer?
Well, don't we love war? And sending our men and women to die in them? And spending trillions on them? Yeah, we do.
Interesting question.
Perhaps, if we stand strongly behind the other democracies in the world, and finally stop supporting dictatorships for the sake of doing business, then perhaps we can show our citizens, and the world, that we are going to be more honest about our relations with other nations.
Trump says that locating the US embassy in Jerusalem will move the peace process forward. What is the theory he is working under Jonathan?
That seems pretty obvious to me. The definition of insanity, as you know, is trying the same thing over and over, while expecting a different result.
Placating the Palestinians and erroneously giving them the impression that they were somehow dealing from strength was clearly an ineffective means of getting them to the table. Perhaps by peeling things back, one by one, they will understand what urgency actually means.
The Palestinians will not change their tune as long as they think they have serious support from a major player like Saudi or Iran. The best way for America to ensure that one or the other gets involved is to go stomping in like an elephant in a China shop. Both Saudi and Iran have other fish to fry... but if the US get too active, then one or the other, or both, will feel obligated to get involved, too.
We need to STAY OUT OF IT!
Actually, Iran is already involved:
After Syria fall-out, Hamas ties with Iran restored: Hamas chief
GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas and Iran have patched up relations, the Palestinian militant group’s new leader in Gaza said on Monday, and Tehran is again its biggest backer after years of tension over the civil war in Syria.
“Relations with Iran are excellent and Iran is the largest supporter of the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades with money and arms,” Yehya al-Sinwar, referring to Hamas’s armed wing, told reporters.
link
Do you doubt that Iran could turn up its activity by several notches?
I think it will waste taxpayers money. I can think of many better things to spend money on than building what will have to be a fort
Don't worry-- it isn't going to happen. Its no more likely than Trump's promise to build a wall with Mexico that Mexico is willingly going to pay for.
No more likely than Trump's promises to improve infrastructure.
He actually took time off from washing the feet of migrants to say that?
I like the pope. His heart is in the right place.
Popes should be experts on violence in the ME since they started the Crusades in 1097 while refusing to recognize Israel until 1967, the Vatican recognized Palestine as a state in 2015,
all the while still proclaiming sole jurisdiction of Jerusalem...for the Pope.
Isn't there a prophesy about this ?
I know, how silly of the pope to expect Christians to act like Christians. Who does he think he is?
As biblical prophecy unfolds before our eyes atheist still deny Gods existence.
Bible Prophecy Is Nonsense
Look, if we are going with Bible prophecy as a basis for this, then it is hardly beneficial to any Israeli to want this to come to be, since along with Armageddon comes the death of most of the Jewish population, including those in Israel, so this becomes a very self serving desire for Christians who believe in "End Times".
Look, the prophecies in reference to the end times are in the new testament, mainly Revelations. The Jewish people reject Jesus as the son of God and reject the new testament as Gods word.
Bible Prophecy Is Nonsense
I know what it says. It is also why no sane Israeli would ever want that.
Firstly, "End Times" is a heresy that has dogged Christianity since the early days. It is not part of Christ's teachings.
Secondly, you are absolutely right that anyone who wants the end of the world is a closet-homicidal-maniac!
But when it starts to insinuate itself into government policy it's fucking dangerous as hell. This is how those hated Islamist radicals make their decisions.
So what was the point you were trying to make, what am I missing?
A lot of people aren't going to believe this but one of my daughters is an ordained minister in an evangelical branch of Christianity. From time to time I've either gone to see one her homilies person when I'm in her city (or watched videos of them if not). She did one on Revelations and she very delicately but determinedly made it clear to her "flock" that these prophecies were not to be taken literally. Privately to me, she said she was of the opinion the the writer of them was psychotic. So there are Christians out there who are rational but people who take Revelations as prophecy are not among them.
Look John, I think that's true, but there is a whole strange dynamics with Fundamentalist Christians and their support for Israel, and it's not because they love Israel or their people. They just need them for "End Times".
Agreed
Well, believers don't die.. they get raptured. Everyone else does. So in their book, they end up with a better earth full of people who believe like they do.
Perrie, the End Timers don't care what the Israelis want. It is written.
I think your daughter is right...
And boy talk about the apple falling far from the tree. LOL!
Tell me about it. What a parental failure I've been
Must be fun at your home during the holidays, LOL!
That no normal Israeli/Jew would want to help you towards their demise.
Oh I get that, John.
"So if none of what we understand in Revelation is true, then what is the book for? Simply to bolster the faith of the Christians that were undergoing severe persecution in Rome at the hands of its most vicious emperor. The Book of Revelation was written under the context that Rome would be the final empire upon earth based on John’s interpretation of Daniel’s dreams.
In John’s mind, Rome fit the bill as the last terrible beast. This is the reason why nothing in Revelation speaks to anything specific to our day and age beyond the times of the terrible persecution of the Christians in Rome. Now Rome is no longer a one world government. It has been reduced to a tiny autonomous state in Italy called the Vatican. It was toppled by its own undoing – not by that of any supernatural messiah. It exists now only as a relic of the past.
John could not write the book of Revelation as explicitly as he wanted to. As such, he had to rely on the use of an old Hebrew poetic technique that relied heavily on metaphors to get the message across without being discovered. That’s why he wrote Revelation in a language that only the Christians of the time would understand. That’s why he uses symbolism that only those Christians would follow. That is why it is so difficult to understand it in context today.
If John were to write in plain language like much of the rest of the New Testament and Roman Soldiers got a hold of it, he would have surely been put to a premature death. But as is, the Book of Revelation would appear to them to be little more than the gibberish ramblings of a mad man on the verge of insanity. They would just ignore it and pass it along to his friends.
However, the Book of Revelation accomplished its job so well, that now we have a runaway train in Christianity (only one of many) where people have looked into the book and failed to account for the obvious purpose of its construction. The reason why this happens is that in order to sell Christianity to the world, there has to be an eternal hope to look forward to.
…and what better book to do that than Revelation.
Daniel’s dream became particularly useful in this context because it had the same message. Daniel’s dream and John’s vision both end where all Messiah doctrines end – the overthrow of a world government (which Rome was at the time) by a supernatural messianic figure. Of course, that never happened. When it didn’t, everyone who read Revelation after that kept looking for Jesus to return – but he never did and he probably never will if this keeps up.
Consequently, the chain reaction built up over the next 2,000 years, with various religious sects coming out of the woodwork, all claiming that their current times were the last days, dragging out Revelation further and further, reinterpreting the book each time to fit the events of their time, each pathetically flogging a dead horse that is well over 2,000 years old.
Each time someone tries to predict when Jesus will return, they are disappointed. The early Christians were disappointed and today’s Christians will continue to be disappointed, because all of these hopes are based on a past event. The expectation of what should happen after the event is based on an ancient myth that is as old as religion – far older than Christianity.
Anyone who has studied eschatology can tell you emphatically that apocalyptic philosophy is neither unique to Judeo-Christianity nor was it invented by Christianity. These mythological trappings predate Christianity by at least 3,500 years, just like the messiah complex and the redemption doctrine. They are all old myths that are ubiquitous to every religion of every age."
She needs to find a new profession, she's not preaching the Bible. I would classify her as a false prophet. Whatever Christian denomination she's in she needs to leave it, she as heck isn't evangelical even if she does call herself one.
OK just a few points:
A. Most Israelis do know about end times, due to the constant field trips to Mt. Armageddon. Vice even did a documentary called "Armageddon Now" about it.
B. The West Bank needs to be part of Israel and it is not.
C. Aren't Christians Fundamentalist being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel, when they believe that if all the prophecies are fulfilled then 2/3 of the Jewish population will die?
One last point, Jerusalem has been the capital since the 80's, as someone has pointed out. So really the US recognizing what the Israelis did, doesn't change the date of the rapture.
So now one Christian gets to grade another.. that is interesting. Kind of missing the main message....
On the contrary -
Although she is a person of faith, she allows herself to interpret and reference all of the canonical text, so as not to be trapped in taking anything literally.
A healthy balance, if you ask me.
Of course they know about it, they just don't believe it.
" One last point, Jerusalem has been the capital since the 80's, as someone has pointed out. So really the US recognizing what the Israelis did.
I'll give you that point
"doesn't change the date of the rapture."
You have the rapture confused with Armageddon. The rapture ( if there is one) will occur before the battle of Armageddon.
No I don't. The rapture only happens when Armageddon is imminent, so it's time is relevant.
Also, I didn't see you answer this:
C. Aren't Christians Fundamentalist being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel, when they believe that if all the prophecies are fulfilled then 2/3 of the Jewish population will die?
And you still didn't answer C:
C. Aren't Christians Fundamentalist being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel, when they believe that if all the prophecies are fulfilled then 2/3 of the Jewish population will die?
Interesting how the Southern Baptists have gone from "God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew" in 1979 to their current position today. I seriously doubt there are many Jews who think evangelical Christians have their best interests at heart.
Some Christians believe the rapture will happen three and a half years into the tribulation period of seven years that will be three and half years before Armageddon. Other Christians believe it will happen just before the start of the tribulation and some don't believe it will happen at all.
And some people believe that the Moon is made of Blue Cheese. So what?
Well PJ5850... at least you're not being overly judgemental.
And some people believe that the Moon is made of Blue Cheese.
Are they the same adults that believe Santa Clause is real and is married to the Easter bunny?
Very true
All of that has probably occurred a hundred times over the past two thousand years...
Judge not . . . . .
There are no Jews who believe in Christ. People who believe in Christ are Christians, at least they claim to be.
Exactly !
Actually I have personally known some people who identify strongly as Jewish-- but who believe in Christ (or at least feel he was a great master of spiritual teachings).
think that Christianity is a religion-- a religious approach to spirituality. But there are also non-religious approaches.
(A similar example-- I know people who "believe" in the spiritual teachings of The Buddha-- that these are spitiuaslly highly evolved. But don't consider themselves to be Buddhists!
(Actually, now that I think of it-- I am one of them!)
Actually that's a "trap" many fall into (i.e. judging another person). Ironically, these sort of judements of another person are actually in direct opposition to the actual teachings of Christianity!
Matthew 7:1-3
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Please see my comment # 14.1.1.1 (re: Matthew 7:1-3)
Actually I know some Christians who reject the New Testament as being God's word. Rather than believing its the literal word of God, they think its all to be taken figuratively, its all allegorical.
Most Jews consider that Jesus may have been a prophet, but no way the "son" of God.
I agree, but any Jew who accepts Christ as the Messiah is a Christian.
I think the Old Testament is allegorical as well. Seven days? How can that POSSIBLY be literal?
This just gives this atheist more proof (that wasn't needed) there isn't one. I'll bet you'll makes sure none of your kids will die in what's going to come from this.
Believe and don't believe whatever you wish it doesn't affect me at all.
You mean the never ending conflict in the middle east?
No, I mean if you believe in the Revelations. The never ending conflict in the M/E sans the bible is a whole different story.
I would have it any other way and right back atcha.
That's a very long time to wait. What are you going to do in your downtime?
Which is the very issue at hand. Why should Israel do your bidding? It sure doesn't help their citizens, according to your beliefs.
Fatal flaw in that plan.. who is going to be around to awaken you? Or worse.. you could be awoken too early.. then what... {shudder}
Yeah, the same one we've (by we I mean Bush/Cheney) FUBAR'd even worse than it was.
I told you why in another post, look for it, you'll find it.
Again:
C. Aren't Christians Fundamentalist being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel, when they believe that if all the prophecies are fulfilled then 2/3 of the Jewish population will die?
I think he wants you to accept this
Jerusalem will be the capital just as Old Testament prophecy said. The Jews are all for it, they don't believe it could lead to their demise
as the answer.
2/3 of the worlds population will die before Armageddon not just the Jews
Any god that would do that, I would want no part of. And I am darn sure Jesus never preached that. That is hardly Christian love that he did preach.
there is no basis for any of that in the bible.
I think it is written. Too many other signs.
Pierra, I can't speak for God, but feeling the way you do I'm pretty sure he won't want anything to do with you on judgement day.
You really should know about the subject you're commenting on before posting.
If Pierra is a good person, why wouldn't God want anything to do with her on Judgement Day? He wants the good people doesn't he?
First of all, my name is Perrie. Second, no you don't speak for god and third, you don't want to answer my question so you made a hateful remark to me about how god feels about me. I find that very unChristian.
You know the Chabad thought the signs were all there... according to the Kabbalah, and they were wrong.
I answered all your questions I guess you missed some.
She stated she didn't want anything to do with God. Feeling the way she does why would God want anything to do with her?
Would you want to interject yourself into someone's life that didn't want anything to do with you?
Where did I say that? Please find the quote. In fact, I make a point of not sharing my views on religion on this forum, since I am the RA of the site.
So question C. Aren't Christians Fundamentalist being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel, when they believe that if all the prophecies are fulfilled then 2/3 of the Jewish population will die?
Answer is yes they are being disingenuous to their Jewish friends in Israel . Interesting.
I quote: "Any god that would do that, I would want no part of."
I already answered that question find it yourself.
Because no good god would do that. Your god is a vengeful god. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. He would have never damned 2/3rds of his people, much less anyone else to death and hell.
God and Jesus doesn't damn anyone to hell anyone that goes there does it on their own. All 2/3 of the people that will die during the tribulation aren't all going to hell
You shouldn't discourage extremist evangelical Christians, Perrie. Their prophesies and prediction of the coming of rapture and Armageddon aren't going to happen anyway, and in the meantime, which will be forever, they're very supportive of the defence and success of Israel.
Why?
Buzz,
That is where you and I part. By giving the impression that these prophecies are coming true, could give some lunatic in our near future, to nudge us closer to what they think is will be Armageddon. We are always just one button away...
And while they support Israel, do you want to be in bed with people who look upon you as collateral damage? I wouldn't.
14.2.1.2.… TiG replied to PJ5850 @ 14.2.1.2.… 2 minutes ago
Good question Tig. Jesus never said it so I guess, men with pens.
The answer I am expecting to get (if one even comes) is that the doomed believe in the wrong God (or no god at all).
Note that 1/3 of the world's population are Christians. Looks like a declaration tantamount to 'if you are not a Christian you are doomed'.
You've identified the fundamental absurdity of the "End Times / Rapture" nonsense. These "followers of a God of Love" would easily slaughter billions. They aren't Christians, they're Lahayeians.
Ask God
That response effectively announced to this forum that you realize your argument is a loser.
Just curious. Do you have a crystal ball, or do you read Tarot Cards? Actually my mother and her sister used to read tea leaves , but I never put much faith in it.
Buzz, I take it you are acquainted with the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't think anyone in their right mind should be encouraging evangelical Christians to become overly interested in Israel. Particularly not those with access to power.
Your question was a loser
I would have advised silence rather than deliver a Pee-Wee Herman retort .
You shouldn't ask Pee-Wee Herman questions.
Looks like I got my answer. Based on the dodging it would appear that my hypothesis was correct. The claim that 2/3 of the world is doomed is based on 1/3 of the planet being Christian and the 2/3 balance NOT being Christian.
Judge not . . .
That is due to oil - and wanting it all. President Carter predicted this.
You do know that there is no oil in Israel, Syria or Lebanon right.
Want to try any of other of your liberal buzz words that will also fail?
Last month Afek, an Israeli subsidiary of Genie Energy, a US oil company, announced that it had found considerable reserves of oil under the Golan. Genie's chief geologist in Israel, Yuval Bartov, said the company believed the reservoir had the “potential of billions of barrels”.Nov 14, 2015
Syria is the only significant crude oil producing country in the Eastern Mediterranean region, which includes Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinian territories. According to the Oil and Gas Journal, Syria had 2,500,000,000 barrels (400,000,000 m3) of petroleum reserves as of 1 January 2010.
I've never quite understood the whole concept of Christ being all forgiving
so why a heaven and a hell?
ALL Forgiving is a straight forward concept, yet Christians & Muslims both believe in Hell?
smh
Why wouldn't God want anything to do with Perrie? Is he afraid of her because she's the R.A. of this site and a moderator? Because God is a troll?
I doubt it!
(Actually God is a nice little old man with a White Beard who sits on a throne on a cloud and sends loving thoughts down to us.)
He's not a hater-- in fact he loves everyone.
Even Perrie!
Actually even if you're a Christian you may not be safe-- because if you're the "wrong kind of Christian" you may be doomed as well!!!
Actually the best chance for salvation came during the Harmonic Convergence-- but that was too long ago,
The Harmonic Convergence is the name given to one of the world's first globally synchronized meditation events, which occurred on August 16–17, 1987. This event also closely coincided with an exceptional alignment of planets in the Solar System .
Although the event had been predicted by author Tony Shearer in his book Lord of the Dawn (1971), the principal organizer of the Harmonic Convergence event was José Argüelles .
According to Shearer's interpretation of Aztec cosmology, the selected date marked the end of twenty-two cycles of 52 years each, or 1,144 years in all. The twenty-two cycles were divided into thirteen " heaven " cycles, which began in AD 843 and ended in 1519, when the nine " hell " cycles began, ending 468 years later in 1987. The very beginning of the nine " hell " cycles was precisely the day that Hernán Cortés landed in Mexico, April 22, 1519 (coinciding with "1 Reed" on the Aztec/Mayan calendar, the day sacred to Mesoamerican cultural hero Quetzalcoatl). The 9 hell cycles of 52 years each ended precisely on August 16–17, 1987. Shearer introduced the dates and the prophecy to Arguelles in 1970, and he eventually co-opted them and created the name Harmonic Convergence as the public title of the event.
The timing of the Harmonic Convergence was allegedly significant in the Maya calendar , with some consideration also given to European and Asian astrological traditions. The chosen dates have the distinction of allegedly marking a planetary alignment with the Sun, Moon and six out of eight planets being "part of the grand trine ." Though Arguelles eventually connected the timing of the Harmonic Convergence with his understanding of the significance of Maya calendrics, the dates themselves were derived not from Maya cosmology but from Tony Shearer 's reconstructed Aztec prophecies.
[...]
An important part of the Harmonic Convergence observances was the idea of congregating at "power centers." [4] Power centers were places, such as Mount Shasta , California, [5] Mount Fuji , [6] and Mount Yamnuska [7] where the spiritual energy was held to be particularly strong. The belief was that if 144,000 people assembled at these power centers and meditated for peace, that the arrival of the new era would be facilitated. [4]
Actually I believe Badfish did as well!
Actually, while the small amount of oil Syria has is significant to Syria, in terms of world production its a mere drop in the bucket.
The petroleum industry in Syria forms a major part of the economy of Syria . According to the International Monetary Fund , oil sales for 2010 were projected to generate $3.2 billion for the Syrian government and account for 25.1% of the state's revenue. [1]
Syria is a relatively small oil producer, accounting for just 0.5 percent of the global production in 2010. [2] [3] Although Syria is not a major oil exporter by Middle Eastern standards, oil is a major pillar of the economy.
Any foreign involvement in Syria (for example the current Iranian and Russian invasion) has nothing to do with oil. Rather, for Russia its about projecting its power-- currently Russia has no Meditteranean port. But Syria does (Tartus)-- the Russians want a friendly gov't in Syria so they can have a military outpost on the Meditteranean.
Iran is also meddling with Syria. But again, its not about oil. Rather, Syria borders Israel, and Iran wants access to that region to that (as well as ensure arms flows to its Shia ally, the Lebanese Shia terorist group Hezb'Allah.
Thanks for the invite-- it means a lot to me!
Always preparing for the afterlife, I am!
Peace Be Upon You Bro!
Don't forget to bring the beer.
OK will do
Especially if you happen to be in a Muslim country.
"In 1985, a broke and depressed Jim Carrey drove his old beat-up Toyota up the Hollywood hills. There, sitting overlooking Los Angeles, he daydreamed of success. To make himself feel better, Carrey wrote himself a check for $10 million for "acting services rendered," post-dated it 10 years and kept it in his wallet. The check remained there until it deteriorated but Carrey eventually made it: he earned millions for movies like Ace Ventura: Pet Detective and Dumb and Dumber ."
It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just because a bunch of adherents work their butts off to make a prophecy come true doesn't mean it has any help from anything divine. The Zionists in the government after WW2 made sure the displaced Jewish families were sent to Israel even though most had never been there to even visit. They did so because they were attempting to fulfill biblical prophecy to hasten the end of the world which they believe will be very good for them. This is just more of the same.
You do realize that Jews don't believe in the end of the world and that most Zionist were secular, right?
Yes, though there was a movement supposedly in the name of Zionists pushed by British and American protestants before and after WW2 where their objectives of restoring the Jews to the land of Israel coincided, but for very different reasons. The protestants primarily wanted the restoration of Israel so their New Testament prophecies could be fulfilled.
"Ideas of the restoration of the Jews in the Land of Israel entered British public discourse in the early 19th century, at about the same time as the British Protestant Revival. Not all such attitudes were favorable towards the Jews; they were shaped in part by a variety of Protestant beliefs, or by a streak of philo-Semitism among the classically educated British elite." "Lord Lindsay wrote in 1847: "The soil of Palestine still enjoys her sabbaths, and only waits for the return of her banished children, and the application of industry, commensurate with her agricultural capabilities, to burst once more into universal luxuriance, and be all that she ever was in the days of Solomon."
Lord Lindsay was in the minority. For the majority of Brits, the Zionism during the late 19th and early 20th century were disliked.
This was nothing but a political move, no bible needed. That's the problem with believing in a deity, if you truly believe, you have to assign blame as well as praise. Not trying to be rude here, but you claim this is prophecy, but what will you assign blame to if Israel gets nuked off the planet in a couple years? Will that be God too?
but what will you assign blame to if Israel gets nuked off the planet in a couple years? Will that be God too?
Good question. My answer is I would blame the nation that nuked Israel, if it was Iran I would blame Barack Obama and John Kerry for giving the Iranians a clear path to a nuclear weapon.
If that were true I would agree with you. The basis behind the deal, (which was supported by 7 other countries), was giving us the ability to keep a close eye on Iran and their nuke program. What makes more sense....leaving them alone to develop nukes without any oversight at all, or, striking a deal that allows us and other countries to monitor what they are doing? "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Without the deal, Iran could have well turned into the next North Korea in a short period of time. Now, you wouldn't want that, would you? No.
In case you haven't heard there is a problem with the deal, the Iranians refuse to let inspectors in to their facilities citing nation security as the reason. Anyone with half a brain knew that was going to happen.
Obama and Kerry knew it, but they didn't care, all they wanted were signatures on a worthless piece of paper to make it appear as though it was a good deal. Obama and Kerry knowingly passed the problem on to the next President to deal with, what did they care? They weren't going be in office when Iran broke the deal.
but what will you assign blame to if Israel gets nuked off the planet in a couple years? Will that be God too?
Good question. My answer is I would blame the nation that nuked Israel, if it was Iran I would blame Barack Obama and John Kerry for giving the Iranians a clear path to a nuclear weapon.
Israel is not going to be nuked by Iran (after they finally get nuclear weapons) -- nor by anyone else. For several reasons.
First of all, Over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.The entire country is tiny (Muslim countries shown in green-- Israel is shown here in red):
The entire country only about the size of a small U.S. state such as New Jersey. A nuclear attack would annihilate most Israel Arabs, along with the Jews.
And adjacent Gaza and the West bank also have a large Arab population. If a Palestinian State were ever to be created, these people would form the bulk of its population. Would Iran want to annihilate them-- thus eliminating almost of the people that would from a "Palestine"? The Arab world would not be amused...
And the second reason why Iran wouldn't launch a nuckear attack on Israel after the get nukes? Again, because of their tiny size, radiation would seriously contaminate neighbouring countries (all Arab). Exterminating the Jew make make Arabs happy-- but the effects of nuclear fallout would not!
Here's how small Israel really is compared to:
1. Egypt
Here's how tiny Israel is compared to:
2. Saudi Arabia
Because of its extremely tiny size, as well as its elongated shape, no part of Israel is far from the border of an Arab country.
(Note: There are 21 Arab countries in all-- and 51 Muslim countries.).
The third reason is that its an urgent priortiy for the leadership of Iran that Israel continues to exist! (Can you guess why?).
I answered a hypothetical question, I didn't say it would happen although it is a good possibility. Your premise Iran would never nuke Israel is absurd, they and the rest of the Arab world don't care how many Arabs they kill in Israel, the goal is to annihilate Israel at any cost.
For Iran? I haven't the foggiest notion.
For the regime of the ayatollahs, on the other hand...........
Did the 9/11 terrorists care that there were Muslims in the buildings, or the airplanes? Muslim terrorists have already declared that their secret weapon is that Jews love life, but Muslims desire death, especially for the cause of Jihad.
Yes-- that's what I meant.
Their policies are determined by the government, not the people.
If Israelis hit,. the radioactivity would descend upon The West Bank and Jordan. I doubt if the Jordanians would want nukes exploding so close to their country...?
But that's not the main reason. While its known that the Arabs want Israel destroyed, that's not totally accurate. The Arab masses want that-- their leaders continually gin up hatred aginst Israel. But the leaders, not so much. Their main goal is power and to remain in power. And if Israel were to be destroyed-- what would they use as a scapegoat...to turn their peoples' attention away from their own misery and towards an outside force?
So how close are you to keeping an eye on Iran's military bases - Iran, the country well described as the leading terrorist supporting (and protagonist) nation in the world?
OK two really fine documentaries but only one about Armageddon.
Please watch "Armageddon Now" starting at 16:02
Some music to listen to about Armageddon ....it....
LOL.. Fun song!
A little humor is never bad.
A good business these days would be marketing American and Israeli flags in Muslim countries. They'll sell like a "wildfire".
I really hope this works out well for the Jewish people, they are a fantastic people and they deserve peace as much as anyone in the middle east. But, I really doubt this will bring peace, I am betting that it will bring the opposite and I truly hope I am wrong.
Unfortunately, you are not wrong. Our putrid POTUS walked into a room full of gasoline and lit a match, just to light a fart.