Cal Thomas: Florida’s economy is booming while blue states like New York are mired in debt -- why is that?
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
While most attention has been focused on immigrants trying to enter the United States over America’s southern border, there is legal migration taking place that has been largely ignored, though it may have at least as much economic and political impact as the other.
People are moving out of high-tax states to Florida and other states with lower tax burdens.
Florida’s new governor, Ron DeSantis, mentioned the movement in a speech to the Club for Growth, which describes itself as “a national network of over 250,000 pro-growth, limited government Americans who share in the belief that prosperity and opportunity come from economic freedom.”
DeSantis says New York Governor Andrew Cuomo has accused him of stealing residents from his state. “I’m not stealing anybody,” said DeSantis, “they are driving people away.”
The data back him up. Chris Edwards of the Foundation for Economic Freedom, the first free-market organization in the United States, produced a research document for the Cato Institute that shows “of the 25 highest-tax states, 24 of them had net out-migration in 2016.” One of the states that gained from migration was Florida where “145 households moved in for every 100 that left.
DeSantis says this influx has fueled economic growth of the state, leading to a $1.4 billion revenue surplus.
Economist Richard Rahn has created a chart that includes a comparison between the tax rates of New York and Florida. He writes that while New York imposes high taxes and conveys an anti-business attitude (the recent debacle with New York City losing a headquarters for Amazon is just the latest example), “Florida imposes no state and local income taxes in addition to the federal income tax — yet Florida is booming, with a budget surplus, while New York is mired in debt. Only 50 years ago, New York had four times the population of Florida, and now Florida is larger than New York.”
In Florida, the policy seems to be that if you can earn it, you get to keep more of it. That is the best prescription for economic growth and personal satisfaction.
The sound economic state of Florida is not the only subject DeSantis is touting. He won applause from the dinner crowd when he mentioned his executive orders suspending Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher and Dr. Brenda Snipes, Broward County supervisor of elections. Republicans have accused these two of manipulating votes, causing confusion and chaos over vote counting that dates back to Bush-Gore in 2000.
DeSantis has other victories in his short time in office. He has named three conservatives to the state Supreme Court, transforming it from a liberal to a solid conservative majority. He has also announced plans to sign an executive order scrapping the “common core” public school curriculum, replacing it with a “strong American civics” course.
As a new Florida resident, what amazes me is why high-tax states don’t get it? The facts are there for anyone to see, except for those who deliberately refuse to see them. And that’s the problem. In the case of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, California and other Democrat-run states, ideology appears to have eclipsed reality.
If Governor Cuomo thinks DeSantis is stealing residents from New York, maybe he should consider whether his policy of “stealing” taxpayer earnings and demanding that residents pay even more, isn’t the real reason for the exodus.
It is not a difficult question to answer. In addition to the economic benefits associated with living in Florida, the weather is a lot nicer, if you discount the occasional hurricane. While people were freezing up North during the recent polar vortex, the sunny temperatures in South Florida ranged from the 70s to the low 80s.
So, keep coming New Yorkers, and others from high-tax states. Down here, the policy seems to be that if you can earn it, you get to keep more of it. That is the best prescription for economic growth and personal satisfaction.
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“DeSantis says New York Governor Andrew Cuomo has accused him of stealing residents from his state. “I’m not stealing anybody,” said DeSantis, “they are driving people away.”
The data back him up. Chris Edwards of the Foundation for Economic Freedom, the first free-market organization in the United States, produced a research document for the Cato Institute that shows “of the 25 highest-tax states, 24 of them had net out-migration in 2016.” One of the states that gained from migration was Florida where “145 households moved in for every 100 that left.
DeSantis says this influx has fueled economic growth of the state, leading to a $1.4 billion revenue surplus.
Economist Richard Rahn has created a chart that includes a comparison between the tax rates of New York and Florida. He writes that while New York imposes high taxes and conveys an anti-business attitude (the recent debacle with New York City losing a headquarters for Amazon is just the latest example), “Florida imposes no state and local income taxes in addition to the federal income tax — yet Florida is booming, with a budget surplus, while New York is mired in debt. Only 50 years ago, New York had four times the population of Florida, and now Florida is larger than New York.”
The sound economic state of Florida is not the only subject DeSantis is touting. He won applause from the dinner crowd when he mentioned his executive orders suspending Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher and Dr. Brenda Snipes, Broward County supervisor of elections. Republicans have accused these two of manipulating votes, causing confusion and chaos over vote counting that dates back to Bush-Gore in 2000.
DeSantis has other victories in his short time in office. He has named three conservatives to the state Supreme Court, transforming it from a liberal to a solid conservative majority. He has also announced plans to sign an executive order scrapping the “common core” public school curriculum, replacing it with a “strong American civics” course.”
This one wasn't hard to figure out, we really didn't need the great Milton Friedman to explain it. We will hear from those needing a basic course in economics, I'm sure.
People are moving out of high-tax states to Florida and other states with lower tax burdens.
And finding that services are lacking once they arrive, ie: 1950's textbooks still being utilized in some classrooms. Perhaps in a few years when the Atlantic and the Gulf are lapping on their doorsteps they may re-evaluate their locale.
While I understand (living in the #4 location for high taxes) folks do not care for taxation, they do seem to enjoy it's benefits, I suppose it comes down to the individual. Most to all of the folks I know that have opted for the Southern migration have done so for warmth and the lack of snow not to escape taxes.
BINGO...In my area of Florida most of the people that have moved here is because of the weather not taxes...I moved here just because of the weather and taxes were never a consideration.
Also it's wise to note that some of the homes in Florida are 2nd homes for ''Snowbirds''....
Yep, June through November traffic is so much lighter.
Recent stats are saying otherwise. It is about the difference in tax rates. It’s not limited to Florida but other low tax states are also growing and other high tax states besides loser NY are losing people.
I’m trying to stay here and leave California at the same time with our effort to create the state of Jefferson as our 51st state.
If they intend to vote for the same sugar cookies that destroyed the urban centers, one would hope they re-evaluate sooner rather than later.
Oh fucking please!
So far, I like the overt things DeSantis has done but....this bullshit article is really about one dumb shit trying to pass off bullshit to other dumb shits that believe this crap without question.
First of all, this is not a "conservative state" .
It is a Republican dominated state and much of that is the good 'ol boy system at it's finest.
If it was a conservative state ex felons wouldn't have their rights restored as we just overwhelmingly voted.
I've been here since the late 70's, and Florida is usually the last to feel a deep recession and one of the first to emerge.
We "boom" because we have a global economy here. When Americans were hit and not traveling, the Europeans and others did. That provides us with the ability to not charge state income tax.
Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and Jacksonville are major, major ports for import/export, we have always had development and manufacturing as well as being a huge consumer state for transport.
Every governor, including this one has understood the balance that must be kept, whether they are Democrat or Republican.
The state's political lines are fairly well defined. North of Tampa /Orlando is Republican, south is Democrat.
In his recent moves DeSantis has shown that clearly. He's initiated moves and asked for the resignation of the whole board of the South Fla. Water Management District for good cause and initiated the Everglades projects. In the North he added 3 judges.
This guy knows ZERO about Florida and he's bamboozling the weak minded again.
In Ocala, Marion county Fl the economic impact of the horse industry is $2.6 BILLION per year...
The Ocala airport is name Ocala International Airport. It has NO scheduled airlines here and only private plans land here. The runway is built to accommodate 707's which come in from all over the world to pick up horses they have purchased here. We are a world economy in many ways.
This guy really doesn't know much about Florida.
The weak minded are the ones who stay in New Jersey, Massachusetts, New York, Illinois, and California and pay those taxes when they would mostly be better off in other states. It’s not all about just NY and Fla. In 1970 NY had 39 congressional seats and Florida had 15. Now (2010) both have 27, a net loss and gain of 12 each. In 2020 Florida will have several more than NY.
And how long have you lived in California?
,Are you under the impression that people in those states don't make enough to cover those taxes and still have excellent municipal services?
I have lived in Californication from 1960 to 1981 and 1985-present. All but three of those California years have been in Jefferson. Many have left Ca for lower taxes, housing costs, and more job opportunities elsewhere. I live in a relatively low housing cost and local taxes portion of the state. We won’t be affected by the nationwide 10k cap on SALT’s or the 750k cap on mortgage interest deduction as many coastal urban areas will. So the pressure for inland rural and small town Californians to leave for elsewhere is not high for us.
So, are you under the impression that all of the high tax blue states make everyone pay those taxes?
I grew up in upstate NY, two things drove me out of there, the weather (I come from one of the snowiest cities in the USA) and my immature wanderlust coupled to searching for excitement. Which I did happily find.
How many large family farms do you see on the "elite coastal" ?
Those taxes aren't aimed at you or me. This is for the middle class upward moving that bought a McMansion and working their life to keep it afloat.
I don't have mortgages as with most people my/our age unless they just keep buying bigger on credit.
I wonder what farmer McDougal would say to you after he used his Home Equity Loan to buy his new silo in Iowa?
Yeah, couldn't have just said "all my life except for my military days" after that brazen comment about people not leaving a state. Nevermind that you really aren't a Cornhusker.
Lincoln, Nebraska is where I spent those 1981-1985 years and they were my college years. And yes, I’m still and forever will be a CornHusker fan. Go Big Red!
Yet you don't seem to think that other states you named can have like environments.
They do and they are our districts in many of them. Just like the low cost low local tax regions here are.
Well said. I happen to live in MA and I live here for one reason only - my grandkids, the ones who are still toddlers. The state of MA is distinct from the other 4 liberal rat holes you listed. Allow me to describe it. It is 90% white, top heavy with professional types (the type that can afford the high taxes) and devoid of a legitimate middle class. We have a large Brazilian population which performs most of the service sector work and our key sectors are education, medicine, medical research & technology. The average middle class worker might live in NH and work here. Some may recall how NH turned blue.
Now my thoughts on Florida. I have a close friend who moved to Delray Beach a decade ago. Every winter (for 3 months) I get to stay there. To me Florida is (second only to Las Vegas) an adult playground. It's the place I learned how to golf, tour parts of the Everglades in an airboat, taste Stone Crabs & real Cuban food, exotic fishing expeditions and most of all (I pride myself on it) I usually return home with more money than I left with (Gulfstream Park - the gift that keeps on giving!).
Let us give the state of Florida credit for the things it was endowed with: a great climate, natural beauty and yes Republican leadership that fosters a thriving tourist industry, an affordable retirement community and a place where rents and housing are still attainable for the middle class.
The seed's premise is false.
New York is 16th in average income, at $ 60 850.
Florida is 39th, at $ 49 426.
- Wikipedia
The whole article is bogus. Is it lying? Not from a perspective.
Is it dishonest? You bet.
[Removed]
And what are the numbers when cost of living including housing costs and taxes are factored in?
It's your seed. You do the research.
Actually I know that my county is on income only one of the poorer in the state and when cost of living is accounted for its one of the best off.
How do you know? Do you have data? Or did a neighbor tell you?
There are 14 counties in CA with 'poorer' incomes and MOST of the state has the same rating for cost of living. Of course those numbers for Shasta Co. and Redding, CA, I don't know what the numbers are for 'Jefferson' since it doesn't exist.
Florida is a Great State to live in !
Roads are Great !
Services are Great !
WORK IS GREAT !
PROPERTY TAXES ARE GREAT !
NO State Tax is GREAT !
etc....…….
There are a few hiccups now and again....but Overall.....Florida is GREAT !
Florida ROUTINELY shows up in the news for having the most and the dumbest criminals in America.
"Florida ROUTINELY shows up in the news for having the most and the dumbest criminals in America."
Brenda Snipes ?
It would seem that based economics and taxes, the people in Florida are not idiots in this conversation as alleged.
before, blue states could raise taxes and the people could just write that increase off their federal taxes.
why would they care if their state taxes went up and their federal tax liability went down by the same amount?
no financial harm done = no foul observed = let's do it again.
but now that red states are no longer subsidizing blue states taxes via federal tax write-offs.
the blue state people will get it soon enough.
being forced to pay for one's own decisions is funny like that.
cheers
I'll say the same as I said to KAG...
I wonder what farmer McDougal would say to you after he used his Home Equity Loan to buy his new silo in Iowa?
Or the apple farmer in NYS? The cattle rancher in Texas?
How about the Mom n' Pop business they threw everything on the line for?
Just collateral damage?
I answered this elsewhere on the seed.
Did you happen to notice that the comment was not addressed to you''?
No, you didn't.
Actually, I did.
Actually I just went back, and no you didn't.
Yes I did. How many more repeats are you going to go for?
You're aware, of course, that blue states are net contributors to the Federal budget, while red states are net beneficiaries?
Blue = maker
Red = taker
not hard when red states subsidize blue state taxes huh?
but guess what, that game is done, over, and finished
blue-staters will pay their own state taxes from now on.
cheers
Shhhh. The more independant they become, the less the blue states have to pay.
Then, lets see how much they have to tax their own citizens. Look what Kansas has to bail themselves out of?
Or the history of California, where the voters finally got so tired of the right-wing's dilatory blockages that they voted them out... completely...
the problem with that theory is...
not being able to write off state taxes on federal income tax means the people in blue states pay more.
those people vote and/or leave the state
cheers
Here, seems you may be just a bit mistaken.
As opposed to subsidizing Kentucky? Well, thanks!
They also earn more...cheers
I'm talking about the people's wallets... not the states.
do try to keep up
and now, no federal tax breaks for state taxes = now, they pay more in taxes as well.
trump cutting income taxes for redstaters while raising taxes on bluestaters was a win win right?
I say.... a job well done
And where do you think those federal subsidies come from?
Out of the wallets of blue state taxpayers....
Yes, do try to keep up.
Sorry to bust that bubble...you really think it will be the blue state's problem only?
Pretty ignorant comment...small farmers using their equity to grow will thank the right whole heartedly.
Those Mom'n Pop startups? They're gonna love you too.
So...you got yours and fuck everyone else, that how it goes?
Well...the right is giggling all they way to fucking up something else.
That's the essential difference between left and right. The left thinks and acts in terms of "us". The right thinks and acts in terms of "me".
Exactly.
Wages and cost of living including taxes and housing can all affect the relative affluence of an area after cost of living is taken into account.
And virtually none of them have a home worth over 750k to get a HELOC against in the first place. So they will still get to deduct as before if they need new farm equipment or construction or a small business venture. Check out how much home 750k will buy in most red states and red sections of blue ones. Just because in much of the Bay Area the median home price is more than that doesn’t make it so in the real world. I saw in Kiplingers that the median home price in San Jose is 1.1 million. My 3 bedroom 1.5 bath home 1 car garage 1,025 sq ft home would not get a full deduction there.
Such an ignorant comment.
Do you think every home in the east is over the threshold?
Which do you think may be worth more, A home with 50 acres of land? Or a home with 50 acres of citrus trees that are steady producers?
Now, what do you think the equity value difference would be?
Or the family that has been growing Spruce or Pine for 20 years and buys a new saw mill based on the value of those trees produced in to board feet....
Do you think homes with acreage for farming are only valued at the home structure value?
The shallow responses on this seed are showing an intellectual pattern, and it doesn't help the right.
So I presume then that you would support all states recouping 100% of their contributions into the federal coffers. That would mean that most of the 'blue states' would get their money back and many 'red states' could go pound sand...
Facts walk in, the righties run away....
Ugh, another NYS sucks article from someone who has never lived here or knows anything about the state.
We are an enormous state, population wise and so there is movement in and out.
NY population has actually grown since the 1960's.
Why? Because we have great schools, great higher ed, a world leader in the financial markets and have Wall St. We are the countries hub for diamonds. We are a leader in agriculture. #3 for dairy, #2 for apples and a booming wine industry. Read more here:
I don't love our governor, partly because he is just a shadow of what his dad was, but the only one who screwed our state was Trump, who capped our property taxes. What we pay to NYS is a pittance compared to that. That whole tax plan is one big Trojan Horse. The best is yet to come when the middle and working class gets screwed US wide.
Yeah. They're giggling and thinking they helped Trump screw the Liberals.
They couldn't possibly think that a growing entrepeneur would have a way to start a business and employ people. Or the family farm that just made a major purchase with a HELOC and now can't write off the interest or the taxes on all that land.
They're on here everyday, laughing, trolling, having a wonderful time slamming New Yorkers and wouldn't even concern them if the founder of this invested website was started on a property or Home Equity Loan.....nahhhh.
That would be like taking your actions in to consideration. We can't have that now, can we?
I wonder what Farmer Bob in Iowa thinks about those kooky Liberals getting screwed while he is too?
Think he'll be mad at the Liberals?
Perrie!
You're being unethical. Using facts!
I'm pretty sure that's a CoC violation...
So there are now 35 Comments... and no one has Commented on the data cited in the seed.
oh, wait... there's so little it really doesn't deserve Comment. But then... what's left? Nothing.
Flatulence.
OK, I'll bite.
is it your seed?
and are you also saying that your 7 comments are also off topic?
Or did you just want to type the word flatulence?
No. Are we not allowed to Comment on the quality of the conversation... wherever? I wouldn't mind such a Comment on any of my seeds.Some of them are pretty ugly.
Yes. That's "gradual derailing". An off-topic Comment leads to an even further off-topic Comment... and soon the seed is lost to view. I'm as undisciplined as most. It's hard to Moderate, intervening too soon or too late.
There may be some of that...
“As a new Florida resident, what amazes me is why high-tax states don’t get it? The facts are there for anyone to see, except for those who deliberately refuse to see them. And that’s the problem. In the case of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, California and other Democrat-run states, ideology appears to have eclipsed reality.”
That's exactly what this seed is. Facts be damned huh?
What "facts"?
What was fifty years ago no longer applies. The new trends are for the stagnation of high tax states and rapid growth of low tax states. So blue states can brag about what’s left of accomplishments 50-100 years ago while minimizing the flight of wealth and the middle/working class from their brutal tax regimes.
What facts??? Your liat shows gains in every state except one. West Virginia, a red state.
And I personally never looked at any tax issues when I moved from PA to TX
The cost of my auto lease decreased, my car insurance doubled, and my homeowners ins and taxes doubled, while I downsized by more than 50% is square footage and acreage.
And I suspect that like myself, retiring Baby Boomers just go where their families are ( or aren't ) or where it's much, much warmer with no snow.
This chart does not represent one sole reason for interstate migrations.
TX and AZ gained while CA and NM lost, so I guess being a border state is immaterial,
But then again the chart was published in 2017, CA population is currently over 40,017,000. So one can ask, did 480,000 people move back to CA
or was that just the birthrate ?
In your own link
Figure 1 states that California had a net gain in population.
Figure 5 indicates it is a migration from north to south and east to west.
As a former SC homeowner I can assure you people do not move to SC to relieve their tax burden or cost of living.
It was illegal immigration.
Despite the slow national expansion, some states had substantial growth in population.
The population of Utah, the nation’s fastest-growing state this year, expanded by about 2 percent, as did Nevada, a runner-up. Idaho was next, followed by Florida and Washington, with about 1.8 percent each.
For Utah, leading this year may simply be a result of not having yet been hit by the very factors slowing growth nationally.
ADVERTISEMENT“We’re lagging behind those trends in fertility and household formation and all,” said Pamela Perlich, director of demographic research at the University of Utah’s Kem C. Gardner Policy Institute. They may be slow in coming, but those same drags on growth may well hit Utah, too, she said.
A state’s fortunes can quickly reverse, as they did for North Dakota this year. After four years as the nation’s fastest-growing state, North Dakota dropped out of the Top 10 altogether, thanks to residents fleeing for other parts of the country.
Only eight states posted declines, with West Virginia shrinking the most, relatively, by 0.5 percent. Illinois lost more residents than any other state, shedding nearly 38,000, driven by people moving out.
The West dominated the top of the list, accounting for seven of the 10 fastest-expanding states. That region and the more-populous South each had population growth of nearly 1.1 percent over the year.
“The movement to the South and West is a very long-term trend,” said Mr. Passel of Pew, adding that those regions attract older residents of the Northeast and Midwest looking for more temperate places to retire.
The Midwest expanded by nearly 0.2 percent, while the population in the Northeast remained virtually unchanged. Both regions lost more residents than they gained from migration, though that was offset by more births than deaths.
The South is now home to 38 percent of the national population, while 24 percent of Americans live in the West. The Midwest is home to 21 percent of the population and the Northeast is home to 17 percent.
California was the most populous state, with 39.3 million residents. Texas was next with 27.9 million, followed by Florida, New York and Illinois. Texas grew more, by sheer number, than any other state, adding about 433,000 people. Florida was next, with 368,000 new residents.
The issue is each states % rate of growth of population. All except a handful gained some net population. As for share of total population there are many more loser states and most are blue. Here’s the numbers from the US census by percentage from 2000-2010. The surest way to see how population changes is by distribution by state of congressional districts within them. Note that in 2010, California did not gain a congressional district or lose one as its growth slowed to close to the national average. Other western states grew much faster. The south grew big time too. 2010 to present hasn’t changed much except California growth is even slower and we may well lose a seat in 2020 to a more deserving place. Note that states can “grow” in population and still lose out in their percentage of national population and congressional/ electoral college delegation because virtually every other state is growing faster.
You proffered the scenario the people are leaving the blue states and moving to red states, yet in the above example Utah, Idaho are red states and Nevada and Washington are blue states and Florida is a swing state (purple)....How does that support you contention?
In fact the rest of your comment doesn't support your contention.
It seems that Texas has the second largest illegal immigrant population. Couldn't the same be said of Texas?
How so? California has the most intact border wall and border security.
Not intact or strong enough. The smugglers are ramming down parts of it with trucks, something they won’t do when the Trump style barriers replace those sections.
Oh so now it's NOT a WALL, it's a 'Trump style barriers'. Of course the ''Trump style barriers' are no different that the 'Obama style barriers'.
Whatever. More is going to be built and it will be taller and stronger than what Obama ever did and we are going to call it a wall. Period. Because we know how much you all hate the term. Wall! Wall! Wall! Finish the wall!
Hmmm. Wall St. Was there 100 years ago...still there. Ct. For insurance companies? Check. Del. For bank incorporation? Check. Ports of NJ, NY and aPhiladelphia? Running at capacity and expanding.
This is where it gets fun.
"Wall! Wall! Waaaa.....Ahhhh Shit!..Again???
Thank you for finally relinquishing any attempts at cogent debate.
That's where y'all make your mistake. Calling it a WALL for political purposes merely proves sycophancy and illustrates an utter lack of credibility.
It will be a steel slat wall anchored in concrete and it will be taller than anything anyone would call a fence.
here is what we thought of obamas barriers...
let us see if the left can do that with "the wall" on our southern border.
Steel slates are NOT a WALL.
WTF does height have to do with whether it's a fence or not?
So if it’s just a fence why did Anti America democrats spend so much time and effort fighting it?
They didn't. In fact they passed legislation to fund fencing.
Why do you care. We are going to call it a wall and there is nothing that you can say or do to change that. It is our wall no matter what you say. Period. Now you can make as many posts calling it a fence and I will respond to each and every single one of them and advocate to finish the wall as long as you do so. It is and forever will be a wall.
YOU asked Xx.
Unrepentant.
To call a FENCE a WALL is a LIE and it will forever be a LIE.
Leviticus 19:11
A Fence is a wall and a wall is a fence.
Both stop you from going in a straight line from point "A" to Point "B" !
Ooooooo crap....I can't see through my fence.....it must be a wall !
So do rivers, oceans, canyons, crevices, cliffs, abysses, hedgerows, motes, blockades, ect., ect, ect.
Yet NONE of them are in the LEGISLATION, nor is WALL.
NONE of them are being built on the border, nor is a WALL.
It's like calling a bicycle a car because they're both forms of wheeled transportation. Pretzel logic.
BTW, thanks for posting your portrait.
And yet.....Rivers are still crossed.
I hear they make something called a raft and/or boat !
Transportation without wheels !
Can you believe it ?
WALLS are scaled. Point?
Only by Crooks !
"Arm" a drone I say !
BOOM !
LOL
Border Wall
When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
what ? my house was built with walls, not fences. Is your house built with fences instead of walls ?
The seeded article is about taxes and economics in red and blue states related mostly to New York and Florida.
that's great - and if you are trying to ding me for being off topic then you should start with the comment i was replying to first, ok ? thanks
(and make sure to slap yourself on the hand too since you participated in the wall/fence discussion which you just pointed out was off topic 
)
I didn’t flag anything but your objection to the reminder to get back on topic is duly noted and rejected. High tax states suck and low tax states rule and demographic moving patterns have been showing a more direct cause and effect since 2001. It’s no longer just the weather or climate or California would not be net losing people due to domestic between state migration.
isn't it your job as the author to help keep people ON topic and not let them go off topic ? or does that only apply if you aren't participating in any off topic conversations ?
We are allowed to let a thread wander to a degree. It happens all the time. A seeder can limit such wandering and reign it in. I’m not a content control freak so I’m more open to letting things runs course for awhile but when the dead horse has been thoroughly beaten on the side path, it can be time to move on,like what happened here.
It's BOTH !
Fence ?:
Trump is replacing that part with
so when do you decide that "limit" is ? when do you decide it's time for you to start becoming a content control freak since at one point you decide the "dead horse has been thoroughly beaten on the side path" ?
really ? which walls of your house were replaced with fences - your living room walls ? bedroom walls ? support walls ? which ones ? or... are the fences on the outside of your house ?
The determination on the left to avoid calling it a wall is funny. The terms are interchangeable for me but I’ll use the word wall because I know how much they love it in the context of the border barriers.
It's actually hilarious !
Apparently…."Fence" …… Sounds "Passive" to them.
My house has "Partitions" separating rooms.
Democrats got their "fence" ?
Then you aren't talking the party line Xx. Trump said: "It's a WALL, NOT a FENCE." The words are not interchangeable for Trump and as a sycophant, you're dropping the ball.
Well gee, since the appropriation bill that includes the funding was written and passed during a GOP controlled House, it's their FENCE.
Is it a "Fence" ?
are those "Partitions" separating the rooms walls or fences ?
"Partitions" …. with a Gate.
inside your house ? are you stating that the wall, the partition, between your living room and the room next to it - is actually a fence with a gate ?
Why yes, YES it is. Unfortunately, since Trump won't admit that, he can't even get his minions to chant about finishing it...
Finish the wall! WALL. WALL. WALL WALL. WALL. WALL. WALL. Build that wall! Finish the wall! WALL. WALL. WALL
Your needle is stuck.
I'm saying exactly what I posted, they are "Partitions" !
WTF !
Democrats are the ones INSISTING on "FENCE" (a more "soothing word") . Trump has been saying "BUILD THE WALL " !
Dems HATE the word …… "WALL" !
Which in this context is all the more reason to use the term. Finish the wall! 8.6 billion in the next FY budget to do so.
They are INSISTING that we all believe our EYES and recognize that funding for a FENCE has been allocated and that a FENCE is being built.
Yes and he's been LYING about it since last year. You accept and support his lies, I don't.
Nope, they HATE the LIE.
Unbelievable !
f ence
[fens]
NOUN
a barrier, railing, or other upright structure, typically of wood or wire .
Haven't seen that put forth as a deterrent by the "In-The-tank for popularity" congress….have you ?
"It's a WALL, not a fence" Donald Trump.
"An all concrete Wall was NEVER ABANDONED, as has been reported by the media." Trump.
WALLS are NOT 'see through'. You can't pass things THROUGH a WALL.
Steel....is NOT a Fence by definition !
Sooooo........ Steel would be a Wall !
You can't pass things THROUGH a WALL."
Paper notes don't count. If a FULL body can't pass thru, I'd call it a wall.
wall (wôl)
n.
1. An upright structure of masonry, wood, plaster, or other building material serving to enclose, divide, or protect an area , especially a vertical construction forming an inner partition or exterior siding of a building.
2. often walls A continuous structure of masonry or other material forming a rampart and built for defensive purposes.
Maybe they want like the exterior walls of a house 🏠 all along the border complete with doors 🚪 for human traffickers and their cargo along with MS-13 gang members to pass through and windows too to pass the drugs through.
stating they are partitions doesn't state whether they are walls or fences, especially since gates can be found in both if desired.
so let's go back to the question you failed to answer:
let's see if you are brave enough to give an actual direct answer to the question or if you want to continue to be vague in an effort to "win" (my money is on the latter)
A "Partition, is a "Partition", is a "Partition".
partition[pahr-tish-uhn, per-]
verb (used with object)
to divide into parts or portions.
to divide or separate by interior walls, barriers, or the like (sometimes followed by off ):
wait a minute... partitions are walls ?? but you said:
in response to my question: " Is your house built with fences instead of walls ?" ... now you are stating they are just walls and there are no fences ? i wish i could say i was surprised ... looks like there is a difference between a wall and a fence after all - as you just admitted
Yep, We call em "privacy fences" very popular here. They're good to keep people from looking into your yard, not so much for keeping anyone who wants in out though and you never even see them coming. Hop the fence and they're in.
The ones that actually "Deal" with these "Invader's"….want really, really, really tall see-threw/Through "Permanent" stuff.
When it comes to "Liberal" types on this subject ..... Not really.
What is really incredible, is "Liberal" types luv's themselves for helping other countries, but just can't find it in their hearts to really help this country. Keep the hurt going, yet promise a fix....every FUCKING election cycle ……. and the Maroons will keep voting for them.
I see YOU....totally missed …. or dismissed ….. the word "Barrier" .
Easy to climb: Cochise County Sheriff Deputy Mike Magoffin scales the border fence while on ranch patrol in Douglas, Arizona. The barricade is one of the more imposing fences in the area.
Some areas are guarded by an 18-foot bollard-style barricade; others have only Normandy vehicle barriers. Magoffin steps up to the more imposing fence, scales it in a matter of seconds, then jumps back to earth.
(Michael Chow/USA TODAY NETWORK)
"The barricade is one of the more imposing fences in the area."
But as Democrats say..... Fund "Fences" only !
Did the Sheriff just prove Democrats Wrong, since the article you put up calls what's in the picture.....a "Fence" ?
IMHO, the reason that the caption calls it a fence is because it IS a FENCE.
We'll have to wait for clear aluminum [Star Trek] for a 'see through' WALL.
i see YOU.....totally missed .... or dismissed .... the word "Walls" .
as i said:
thanks for pointing it out to everyone
In reviewing the chart what I see is that all but a few states gained in population. The last column is domestic (interstate) moves in and out of the state.
In reality Florida (a swing or purple state) had a gain of 2,137,939...Of that 1,025,261 were interstate moves. It is not explained why the number of domestic/interstate moves. In my experience much of that is leaving the cold weather (retirees) for year around warm weather.
That said our property taxes are much lower than Texas and we have no state income tax.
Does that make Florida a better place to live than Texas?....It would depend on what your requirements are. People live where they live for a multitude of reasons, taxes are only one part of it.
It will be interesting to see with the new federal tax rules balancing home mortgages deductions and SALT deductions across the nation in effect how high tax blue states and lower tax red ones manage their state budgets and deficits going forward. This seeded article is but the first on that issue.
Heck, even the usually idiot
governor of New York the son of an even bigger idiot 
despite his 1984 San Francisco speech noticed the effect high and increased taxes on his states well off contributes to their migration to other lower tax states. When will his equally idiot 
brother in the media notice?
That's pretty hypocritical when one of the biggest bones of contention of your 'State of Jefferson' thingy is high state taxes. It hasn't caused the 'Jeffersonians' to migrate to other lower tax states.
They have no plan, no clue.
Even more obvious is how "selr sustaining".actually meant living off the federal dole.
But it has led people in other parts of Californication to leave the state all together rather than simply move up here as had happened in the past. That costs us. We supported the caps on mortgage interest and SALT’s because we locally won’t be affected by them and those in high housing cost and high tax regions will feel enough pain that they will force their representatives at the state level to reduce regulations to home building in urban areas and cut sales and income taxes for their own relief and to stimulate additional capital investment in the state. When we see people in high cost / high tax areas of this state or New York complain that poor people in West Virginia, Mississippi, Arkansas, Idaho etc. won’t be sending these richer people their federal tax dollars to subsidize their high state and local taxes we say pressure your state and local governments to cut your tax burden or pay for your extra services yourselves and quit complaining about it.
So you admit that your dystopia doesn't attract immigration. FINALLY!
Yet Trump's tax hikes on Blue states STILL didn't cause immigration to your 'low tax' area did they Xx?
Oh and BTFW, there are about 150 properties for sale in Redding alone that hit that $10,000 tax deduction cap. You're happily screwing your own...
More delusional bullshit Xx. West Virginia, Mississippi, Arkansas, Idaho are TAKER states and didn't send a dime to NY or CA.
READ Xx's comment.
I can point you to the information, I can't make you understand it.
I didn't mean to appear kind...
Why would they come to my area of Ca with its lower cost of living and still have the high sales and income taxes of Californication when they can leave the state altogether and have it all? Now if we became our own state with our own tax structure and regulatory rules then we could attract a lot of businesses and people like we did before the state leapt into the toilet.
Not anymore.... But before the caps on mortgage interest deductions limit and SALT limits we all sure did. It was ridiculous that people all over the country were subsidizing the high tax rates of some places regardless of the motivation of those who passed or voted for them.
When was that Xx?
And the BS just keeps on coming...
Let me make this really simple. Here are the states that pay the most in Federal Taxes:
Those are the numbers both gross and per capita.
Now, who isn't paying their fair share again? Hint: It isn't Cali, Texas, New York or Florida.
So yeah, Trump's cap is just more ways to screw us New Yorkers and Californians. You know what they all have in common? I'll let you figure that out.
The 1970’s to 2006.
I’m a Californian and we weren’t screwed. We benefited overall. I didn’t even have to bother to itemize as the standard deduction and per child credit exceeded the itemized amount by 4K so for me the cap didn’t exist. The first year I didn’t itemize since 1996.
Couldn't you just be honest and admit you didn't meet the threshold to itemize?
I had 15k in itemized items and 20k the other way. The prior year it was 15k vs 12k.
Why should the rest of America help compensate NY and CA high tax rates?
Are those the years you claim CA prospered or the years they went into the toilet?
Despite all evidence to the contrary, you continue to portray yourself as the 'every man' of the state of CA. This seed should have proven to you long ago that you ARE NOT.
Why should NY and CA pay those undertaxed and poor red states? We send out more than we get.
Lot of pissed off Californians after doing our taxes. And it has NOTHING to do with our deductions, everything to do with the ponzi gop tax scam.
Why are you ignoring the fact that her link refutes that?
They shouldn't nor do they
There has been a little state shifting in the last year (inc CA and TX) , but the red states get more than blue states do.
From your own link:
"In January 2017, the California Legislative Analyst’s Office said by several measures California is, indeed, a donor state, but just barely. It receives $0.99 in federal expenditures per dollar of taxes paid, which is below the national average return for states of $1.22 per dollar paid, according to its review of a 2015 New York Comptroller study ."
Part of the reason California pays more and receives less than other states is that it has a relatively young and wealthy population.
"Your average Californian makes more money than your average person from Kansas," Boilard added. "So, yeah, inevitably, those people will be paying more money into the system" in income taxes than they draw in federal retirement and health benefits."
So, that seems fair to me.
I know what I posted, I said things has changed since the tax scam. But highly desirable states like California cost more to live in, certainly where I live. But if you feel that way about California why don't you feel that way about corporations and the elite who don't pay anything, or very little? They benefit from being here doing business, our infrastructure and (at least in the past) stability. Bottom line is that we are tired of propping up the welfare states, and I can say I've been doing it most of my life. Again, why should those welfare states suck the others dry?
CA is no longer desirable unless you are earning over $250,000 a year or are an illegal alien.
But if you feel that way about California why don't you feel that way about corporations and the elite who don't pay anything, or very little?
I think you should tax them to the point of making them leave.
Bottom line is that we are tired of propping up the welfare states
The blue states ARE the welfare states. They are a disgrace. Give my best to all the homeless people living under & along the freeways out there.
The homeless problem out here is terrible. The big coastal cities have their issue and then there are those using greyhound and train hopping to come to places like where I live so that any cash or benefits they have stretch quite a bit further.
That's not what the candidates said when they were running for Redding City council. They said the homeless problem was because of a lack of affordable housing and your mayor said that she had been working on it for 4 years. So it seems like a chronic issue in Redding.
It doesn't figure by how much you spent. It figures by how much you spent in relation how much income.
I supplement my income without taking public money so I don't know where the thresholds are on that end.
And what you did last year v. This year doesn't apply except for total taxes paid on the same baseline. The formula has changed, which means so has the math.
Anyone in particular or do you know them all?
Wait! Someone wasn't telling the truth?
Noooo, that can't possibly be. I was under the impression they all drank holy water and could piss all the apostle's names in a snowbank.
I wonder if they will address this misunderstanding ?
What's that I'm seeing conservatives here say every day in every way?
Where's the proof?
"Well, it's right here in my.....FLOP, FLOP, FLOP, FLOP.....
There are not 150 properties here selling for around $800,000 and above the 750,000 cap on mortgage interest deduction. There might be that many worth that much were they for sale. The nationwide caps are fair. And they are nationwide.
There is no tax on blue states. Just a nationwide limit on mortgage interest deduction and combined state and local taxes deductions regardless of where one lives. It’s not the tax laws fault that some areas have zoning and NIMBY laws to create artificial housing shortages in key areas, driving up their cost. Nor is it the responsibility of people in lower cost states and areas to subsidize the higher tax and education costs of areas that are high tax at the state and local level. No longer can legislators or citizens of a state or an area vote higher taxes on themselves for whatever purposes and expect the federal tax payer from everywhere else to subsidize it.
There was no tax increase in Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Minnesota, etc for voting blue. There is no tax on a state because of how they voted. There are many people in even the biggest of the bluest states totally unaffected by the tax law except for its tax cuts.
You shouldn’t have to subsidize us at all.
The full toilet was after that. It’s been a gradual decline for the whole state since Grey Davis became governor.
So you're saying that the Arnold sucked. Got ya.
Actually, 600,000 puts you over the 10,000 tax cap and YES there ARE 150 properties over that value for sale in Redding alone.
And in my area there is a nice 1970 built 3 bedroom one bath home 950 sq ft. home for sale with one car attached garage on a 7000 sq ft lot for $149,000. One bedroom apartments can be had for $500 a month.
Yes he did, particularly his last 3-4 years.
And you are?
Point? You supported a tax hike for 150+ homeowners in you town.
The Average Property Tax Rates in California | Home Guides | SF Gate
I don't live in CA anymore Xx. Unlike you, I have never claimed to represent ANYONE but myself.
So even with bond and special districts driving the rate from 1% to 1.5% a property valued at $600,000 at time of sale would be taxed at $9,000. Oh and I noticed that you changed the parameters from the city of Redding to Shasta county making the impact only 1/2 as much since only half of Shasta County’s population lives in the city limits of Redding.
Point?
A home value of 600,000 meets the 10,000 state property tax cap Xx.
You act like you used to live in a part of it that would become part of the State of Jefferson. Reminds me of the endless arguments I had on the prior site with another progressive from rural far north Ca member there, Lassen Park.
And far more importantly still qualifies for the full home mortgage deduction which is of far more importance money wise. I wouldn’t have to pay 10k in property taxes on my house based on its rate were it to be worth $600,000. My rate is around 1.25% of initial sale price plus 2% annual increases in assessed value since 1996. Even at full market value it would not come out to the % of 10,000 based on your 600,000 number you suggest.
Only in the mind of a progressive does 9000 =10000
That means that virtually every home for sale in San Jose and several Bay Area and LA area communities would exceed both the 750k mortgage interest cap and the 10k property tax cap.
I did? Where?
Oh and BTFW, there are about 150 properties for sale in Redding alone that hit that $10,000 tax deduction cap. You're happily screwing your own...10.1.4. Actually, 600,000 puts you over the 10,000 tax cap and YES there ARE 150 properties over that value for sale in Redding alone. 10.1.44. Point? You supported a tax hike for 150+ homeowners in you town. 10.1.48. You did by changing what you wrote in 10.1.44 which had said Shasta county before you changed it to say Redding alone instead of Shasta county. You have a time limit to change a post and next time I’ll have to wait until that’s past before responding to any thing you have to say. Welcome to ignore for this and the Jefferson seed.
Is that what you got in your world class research?
In Ca it’s the working and middle class and small business people that are the ones leaving.
Tell that to your puppy.
They agreed with me..
Intellectually aloof supporters and you're dancing about it.
Impressive.
That was about the most damning article about Californication that I’ve ever read. It’s becoming like Chicago where there is an elite limousine liberal ivory tower super educated elitists and then there are the working poor who serve them and the homeless. So we have white progressive Liberals gentrification of the coastal cities and a migration of unskilled legal and illegal immigrant population to serve them while the middle class leaves for better places and the working class too while the original working class that can’t afford to move become homeless. What a state!
I wonder what the deal is with Minnesota? Really blue, and economically, doing really well.
And yet it almost went for Trump over Clinton in2016...
Almost or close only counts in horseshoes and hand gernades, XX.
BTW, They just elected a democratic governor and Lt. Governor who is Native America....
Maybe it’s more purple than blue. It will go for Trump in 2020.