Is This the Beginning of the Second American Civil War?
Back in early 2008 I joined Newsvine. For the first few years it was a great place to express views and have meaningful and constructive dialogue. It slowly devolved into hateful partisan arguing, and ultimately into an all-out food fight that got so bad it was beyond the moderators’ ability to enforce civility… ultimately resulting in the demise of the Vine. Perrie and I joined the Vine at about the same time. After a few years of caustic rhetoric on the Vine, Perrie started NewsTalkers. Thankfully, she has been able to keep it going in spite of some of the same mean-spirited rhetoric. There are lots of non-political articles on NT that help to keep the place attractive and interesting. But the politics remains as divisive as ever.
It seems that writers on political topics want little more than a chance to rail at those who have different views. In a word, to “vent.” Is there no interest in trying to understand and empathize with those who think differently???
In 2009 I wrote an article for the Vine with the Title, “Is This the Beginning of the Second American Civil War?” Things are so much worse today than they were twelve years ago… Lets hope we don’t actually start shooting at each other!!!!!
I long for the spirit of understanding and acceptance we had when the Vine was young. I am a leftie… but I also recognize our country is comprised of many diverse ideologies… and as such it is not reasonable for me to expect to have everything just the way I want it. Are there no righties who feel the same way??? Is there no more opportunity for respectful dialogue???
Let me be very clear… I am not putting all the blame for this hateful dialog solely on righties (as you might suspect because I have identified myself as a leftie) … I see it coming from lefties as well. I wonder… what do people who vilify the other side hope to achieve???
I recently discovered my nephew is a Trump fan, and even more shocking to me, a Qanon fan. I have been trying to correspond with him… I started by suggesting that we each simply state our views and beliefs forthrightly while trying to avoid any effort to convince the other of the “rightness” of our ideas… the idea being that this would at least give us a chance to know each other better. Then we could respectfully agree to disagree. I can’t speak for my nephew, but I found it increasingly difficult to avoid responding to his statements with a “Yea, but what about…”, so I let him know that I thought it best for us to focus on more benign topics. How sad…
Is that what this has come to for America???
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For some reason, I actually remember that article as I was on NV at that time. At the time I thought it more fear mongering than anything else. Now I really do wonder.
Well, I remember it too, Ed which means that we knew each other then.
That is quite possible because unlike a lot of folks, I have never changed my screen name on NV or NT.
I love your av. When I lived in AK, I fell in love with the breed.
I've had 8 of them...
There is no longer any basis for discussion. And why not?
It is not possible to have rational discussions with those whose conceptual framework is organized around fictitious narratives.
That's tRump and his supporters for you.
With them, it's their way, or NO WAY.
Thank you.
I've often wondered the same MM.
I avoid the topic of politics with my real life friends. Every once in a while my daughter's FIL will start some shit with me, but I'm getting a lot better at ignoring him.
I think at the end of the day rightie or leftie we all want the same thing. A decent living, some luxuries (TV, phone, dishwasher), and to take care of our families. I guess we differ in the way we want to achieve those things.
And I don't want handouts. I want to earn my way and acquire "things" because I can afford them.
Have to agree with you there, Trout!
Is that why you slapped my hand away the other day?
Haha
There are a lot of people I just ignore and won't talk politics with. It always just devolves into how I am some kind of Liberal and Liberals are just out to destroy the world...
I was at some 'friends' house one day and he flat out looked at me and said that he does not tolerate any Liberal viewpoints at his house and if I did I would be forced to leave.
I was kinda stuck as I drove with other people so I just walked to a 'friends' house that was across the street.
He sounds nice
He wasn't kidding either. He was dead serious and was staring straight at me when he said it.
Funny thing is he is one of those people that he doesn't even have to work, he was handed down rental properties and collects rent on them every month.
Never had a real job and is drunk every night.
Hey Ender. I think you and I both know that by being mature and exercising common sense, and not wanting to be enemies of anyone, you and I were able to set aside almost coming to meeting in the alley for a down and out to becoming good friends. It's possible, but for some on this site, there is no such hope.
I agree Buzz. We were not on good terms for a while and I do blame a lot of that on myself. I can be a stubborn ahole. Haha
Yet here we are and have put aside any differences and get along.
I am proud to be able to call you a friend.
I think that there are judgemental people and nonjudgemental people... just like in real life.
You're damn right I have judged Donald Trump and Trumpism. It's a shame on this country that more people didnt do it and sooner.
You had plenty of backup for the last four years. And actually too many to see what was actually being done that wasn't published on the MSM. Too busy bashing.
Puhlease
I have some very conservative friends I would rather not visit, but I would never throw them out of the house unless they insulted me or my family personally...or said something so heinous it was unforgivable. Your "friend" sounds like a real Peach. I'm glad you had somewhere else to go.
Nice like a root canal without Lidocaine.
We are all judgemental in many ways.
We make erroneous snap judgements about folk all of the time.
Having certain prejudices, however, is tantamount to survival.
Sometimes he could be so nice. Me and him used to sneak off into his garage and get stoned.
I think he was already drunk that day, when we pulled up.
Alcohol does some funny things to people. Some people are the nicest sober but get them drunk and it's a whole different personality
Ain't that the truth. I have seen people that get all lovey dovey and touchy while some get belligerent.
There use to be a poster that you could tell was getting drunk while engaging. You could see the progression of drinks as the posts went on.
I get silly. I start laughing and can't stop
Ironically enough... my ex was the opposite! He was an asshole sober, but super fun when drunk! Only one I ever knew like that.
My friend this and that is all very nice standard fare, but there does exist forces constantly in play (though tamped-down) that hold to a belief and understanding that one racial and political group is superior to all others and thus must win at all cost. To that end, they will never concede to let you have a proper lifestyle. Your value as a woman is not a freedom to share with the nation - it is a role to participate in granted, given, written in conservative culture. As far as these folks are concerned.
How are you or any other woman supposed to make up for all the things which have been insufferably taken from you simply because of the role you're casted in? That our government has in its capacity, ability, and reserves to write checks for trillions of dollars internally, and then some more for international dealings, is an indicator that it can do more and owes more to the U.S. citizenry who comprise the stockpilte of national wealth.
That is, telling the citizenry to "buyer beware" the shifty people who scheme, connive, and outright rob our life's blood and property - that we should somewhat paradoxically admire the schemers, connivers, and robbers who best us in the execution of our professional and personal lives because we could be "mighty smart" like them one day, misses the point that we are not all the same.
One of the most telling things is businesses (small, middle-sized, and corporate) all pull up to the government to get their shares, plural of the public weal. Can you use your shares too? You do not have to have too much 'want,' to deserve what is proper for you as it is for any other citizen or business entity.
One Christmas gathering, I found a fine way to invite input on public affairs while at the same time completely squelching it. As I put it ...
'The state is a whore, and the ruling class is its pimp.
The pimp belches orders.
The whore's legs obediently spread.
The proletariat is screwed.
That's all you need to explain politics.
But if you think something is missing, do feel free to contribute.
Saw plenty of dropped jaws, but no one said a word.
A Blessed Christmastide to you and yours!
Wouldn't that make the working class (proletariat) the whore? It's usually the whore getting screwed...
It seems more like in America today, the State/Fed Gov is the pimp, trying to both profit off of and making the whores lives better (providing protection, OSHA etc.), but still setting up the "dates" where the working class is screwed and from which they profit.
Accurate per theory. It also nicely follows his analogy of the ruling class (bourgeoisie) as the pimp.
'...the State/Fed Gov is the pimp, trying to both profit off of and making the whores lives better (providing protection, OSHA etc.), but still setting up the "dates" where the working class is screwed and from which they profit.'
As I see it, the state exists to serve the ruling class, it's true and sole constituency. The state governs the nation, managing the interests of the ruling class.
The two parties reflect an in-house, ruling class argument as to HOW BEST to manage ruling class affairs. Marx used the analogy of a party of the iron fist, and a party of the iron fist wrapped in a velvet glove. The velvet glove party can offer a few throwaway 'concessions' so long as the economy is growing such that ruling class profits can be maintained. But in times of economic contraction, even those piecemeal concessions [essentially a bribe to the working class NOT to revolt] must be taken away. This is called 'austerity' and 'cuts' because there is 'no money' [even if trillions exists to give to the wealthy].
Very inadvertently, Trump performed a valuable service to the working class. He stripped away the mask of civility to expose the parasitic profligacy and putridity of ruling class for the world to see. This lesson in class dynamics under Capital must be retained and incorporated into the consciousness of the working class.
Take care!
It all comes down to the tragedy of the commons.
With an iron fist in a velvet glove we are sheltered under the gun.
In the glory game of the power-train thy kingdoms will be done
And the things that we fear are a weapon to be held against us.
The king is dead, long live the king. I do miss Niel.
A note to all... I realize MalamuteMan is kind of a long handle... MM is okay, but if I prefer Mal...
Hi Mal,
Glad you revived this... Hopefully some good discussion???
I guess The MalMan is out of the question...
Well... in the past some have used MalMan... which is fine... but I prefer Mal... cuz of... Uh oh... hear goes all my credibility... I like to assume the persona of a dog.
At one point back in the Newsvine days, someone started an article about something... I don't even remember what the original article was about... but anyway, dozens of commenters started leaving comments that turned the whole thing into a totally spontaneous group authored story. I thought, okaaaaaay... I've always been a lover of dogs, so I will be Mal, the anthropomorphic dog in this story. Ever since then I've stuck with that handle. :o}
Squirrel!
Mal it is. Haha
[ Mal's eye light up... ]
A sq... A SQUIRREL!!!!!!
[ Mal dashes off in hot pursuit... ]
Hi, Mal! Glad to see you back in town!
Good to know. Thanks for clarifying.
When there are people on the national stage that actually push falsehoods and conspiracy theories what can one do?
There are people that fight tooth and nail for complete fabrications, some of them believe there is actually an underground pedo ring under a pizza parlor.
They continue to push falsehoods even when confronted. They will argue, yell and scream and not waiver in their beliefs, however unfounded they are.
There is just no having dialogue with some people and I have come to the conclusion that they don't want it either.
Then of course we have politicians that just demonize any opposition just to get elected. When we have our so called representatives name calling and throwing out platitudes about how a vote for so and so will destroy the country, etc.
People follow the leader I guess. Imo change would have to come from the top down and I don't see that happening any time soon.
I get it, Ender! I feel the same way that you do... It's just that I am so tired of engaging in the food fight... To be very honest... with the Proud Boys, and Qanon, and all the obviously false on its face stuff like the pizza parlor story... I am beginning to think that half of the American populous has absolutely lost its mind... If someone prefers a smaller government, or any rational ideas that are different than my preferences... fine, but cannibalizing babies???!?!?!?!?????... I can just imaging that someone thought... Lets dream up the most ridiculous story we can think of and see how many people we can get to buy it... Now they are saying, "HOLY CRAP!!!!"... half the American public is buying our cockamamy story... And we didn't even have to try very hard to reel in those suckers.
Still... if I am going to engage in any sort of dialogue... it has to be reasonable and civil... so... I admit it, I am reduced to begging for civility and sanity... :o\
Nonsense, and not a bit true. These radical groups are largely unknown tiny offshoots that have few members and even fewer followers.
I realize you are not likely a Qanon follower, Greg. Furthermore, when I first heard about Q et al, I had the same reaction... This has to be a vanishingly small number of people. But... I suggest you investigate a bit more... As hard as it is to believe, the number of people buying into the Q business is much larger than I ever imagined.
What are you hoping to achieve???
An excellent question.
Understanding of those who are different than I... perhaps even some empathy... and dare I say, maybe even some understanding and empathy of me by others... Ultimately, I am hoping for cooperation, and at the very least, civility and less hateful rhetoric.
Half of the American public not only believes it, they think the election was stolen too...
It's misplaced faith. It demonstrates the ability (or desperation) some people have to be led, even astray. I would not have believed it of Donald Trump had I not lived to see it! Damn, not only did I see it - I experienced four years of a Donald Trump "experience." May be, I should write it down in a book what happened to me. May be we all can and exchange them with the masses.
Donald Trump has kept his portion of the populace enthralled, because he simply has never stop talking and sharing with them. In that regards, he has not tired - and they have not grown cold on him.
Well, it is time for some wise pol to throw politically chilled water in the faces of these Trumpers and snap them out of it. For their own good. Donald can continue to live in a menagerie in his own mind. Millions of our citizens there? Uh-uh. Not healthy.
There are several of those QAnon whackjobs in the senate - all republicans mind you.
You are a leftie like Hitler was a pacifist.
I am reminded of Buzz Aldrin punching an aggressive moon landing denier.
That was funny (if a little inappropriate)
Every now and again when I get tired of science deniers I like to watch Buzz do what I wish I could do with my right hand.
No, that was totally appropriate. Science deniers (including moon landing deniers) need a little sense knocked into them.
Lol, in this case it didn't work the guy (Bart Sibrel) is still peddling his nonsense.
Willful, stubborn ignorance is quite resilient, is it not?
'When there are people on the national stage that actually push falsehoods and conspiracy theories what can one do?'
You educate and inform. You address the class interests driving the fictitious narratives. At present, the working class is exhausted, confused and disoriented. By awakening the working class to its class interests will begin to reveal its own class power to ITSELF. People will be free to peddle all the fictitious narratives they can imagine. But it won't get them the time of day.
It is always about the class interests driving the fictitious narratives.
"I long for the spirit of understanding and acceptance we had when the Vine was young. I am a leftie… but I also recognize our country is comprised of many diverse ideologies… and as such it is not reasonable for me to expect to have everything just the way I want it. Are there no righties who feel the same way??? Is there no more opportunity for respectful dialogue???"
We should carefully look at where the nasty comments are coming from. Maybe you can talk to people from your own end of the spectrum. That's the way to do it.
As for righties feeling the same way, it's a little more difficult. There is the matter of the past 4 years. Should we accept the new president after the last one was called illegitimate, unfit and everything under the sun as well as spied on, misrepresented and resisted at every turn?
In all fairness Vic, didn't the same thing happen to Obama from the right?
How long are we going to do this and not find it destructive? I am not blaming one side or the other. It is just an observation.
Can we get you to stop saying "the same thing" pertains to Trump and Obama? It is absurd.
For the record, I have always though that focusing on Trump's complexion was pointless and counterproductive for meaningful conversation.
I think it is much more pertinent to point out that he is a malignant narcissist. Anyone who is happy with the things he does has every right to express their approval of his actions, but they are sadly and grotesquely mistaken if they thing he is motivate to do what he does because he believes it will be beneficial to anyone except himself.
Okay, we can all see that character-wise Barack Obama, Donald Trump, and Joe Biden are studies in contrasts. And for the record, Donald Trump was not born "orange." Maybe after his demise, his family will do a documentary on why he wore such 'cherished' skin!
In all fairness Perrie, I don't recall Barak Obama being viciously attacked 24/7 or being fraudulently investigated or fraudulently impeached with his associates framed and/or ostracized. Are you really going to say the media treated both the same?
How long are we going to do this and not find it destructive?
I guess some have a lot of apologizing to do. We all await the soul searching by the left.
I am not blaming one side or the other.
There are times when blame belongs to one side. I'm sure you wouldn't have said that in 1860.
Oh dear, guess what you are doing? What about your idea of civil discourse & unity?
Trump brought a lot of this on himself.
I think the question is...who is going to be the Big Person and rise above all the petty bullshit?
I'm trying by not responding to people who are trying to get my goat
Why in the fucking world would anyone treat President Obama and President Trump the same ?
Trump is a liar crook bigot moron and cheat. He deserved every bit of criticism he got and a whole lot more.
tRumptud wasn't treated badly . . . he was treated exactly as he deserved, he can dish it out but can't take it.
tRump does nothing that doesn't not benefit tRump.
tRump is in in for tRump, no one else.
tRump BOUGHT ALL OF THIS ON HIMSELF.
LOL!
In what alternate universe do you reside?
My mistake:
tRumpTurd
Well you might consider that could be because he was highly competent and a pillar of integrity. Not that some didn't try... desperately... to find ways to denigrate him. Remember all the shade he got for having the unmitigated audacity to wear a tan suit to a press conference... They were desperate to find something, anything to bitch about.
Trump... well he did get the 24/7 attacks you mentioned... And you might want to consider that his actions were ample justification.
I was and still am not fond of the ACA; it ended up costing me a lot more to cover me and my family. Moreover, a trip to the ER became far more costly following ACA enactment. I can no longer simply pay a copay like I had up to the point of the ACA.
To me, that was my main bitch about Obama. Otherwise, I don't know the man... so nothing to bitch about really.
I understand the need and wanting to address the situation. I just think it could have been done a lot better. Hands were tied and some tried to make it unworkable intentionally.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I've read a lot about the ACA... the details in the act itself. I've come to my own conclusions and have seen / felt the ramifications of it unfold in my life / family. The ACA protects the poor and the elderly from getting screwed by the health "care" system, but that leaves the average middle-class American to pay for the poor and elderly. The sad thing is... a single person, making $15 / hour has a NET pay similar to mine by comparison to lifestyle and I'm paid on salary, which is a little over $65,000 / year GROSS.
Example: My cousin is a Pharmacy Tech, living in Chicago with TWO roommates. She is on welfare and gets EBT. She has no kids, lives in section 8 housing with two roommates and does NOT own a car; therefore, no car insurance but she does have a cell phone. She chooses to work only part time so she can get free health care [because of the ACA she can do that]. She's 37 years old. She is fully capable of working full time.
A Pharm tech in the Chicago area averages $15 / hour. $15 x 40 [hrs per wk] = $600 - average taxes (25%) = $450 / week net / take home.
$450 / wk x 52 wks = $23,400 yearly net.
$23,400 / 12 mos. = $1950 / mo. net.
The gas and electric are paid for in her apartment, so they only have rent and split between 3 people is roughly $300 / month per person. Considering she's on welfare and EBT, there's not much spent in groceries out of pocket. Cell phone bill is $40 / month. The math should be easy enough.
$1950 - 340 = $1610 / mo. left. Now... even if she only worked 20 hours / wk, she could afford what she has; simply cut that mo. income in half. That's still more than $800 / mo. left over.
Yet... when her mother passed away, her and her FIVE grown siblings were begging people for money for cremation costs. In MI [where her mother was], cremation costs roughly $400-600 total. Between SIX ADULTS, they couldn't come up with a maximum of $600 while most of them are getting welfare, free healthcare, and EBT? Why? They're all fully capable of maintaining full time jobs.
My net income is roughly $46,000 / year [$3844 / mo]. Mortgage $1100 / month. Cell phones [hubby, myself, son, mother in law, and the adopted one on plan] $230 / mo. Utilities [incl. cable and internet] $450 / month. Student loans [mine] $150 / mo. A credit card [my AmEx] payment $100 / mo. Misc. costs [groceries, gas, prescriptions, etc.] $1700... Remember, I'm feeding 3 teenagers, myself, and my husband. So... let's do the math.
$3845 [rounding up] - 1100 = 2745
$2745 - 230 = 2515
$2515 - 450 = 2065
$2065 - 150 = 1915
$1915 - 100 = 1815
$1815 - 1700 = 115
Therefore, if any abnormal costs come our way, we're pretty much screwed; we actually have a lot less left over at the end of our month than my 37 yr old cousin that is getting EBT, welfare, and free health care. Those government programs always look at year end salary for determining approval for said programs despite the cost of living of said individual or family. I'm not looking for handouts and my immediate family has life insurance. To me, there's no excuse for her to be benefitting from government programs, and I have to help pay for those programs through taxes [incl. the taxes taken from my pay for ACA].
Main point of this long example:
What I would like is for all circumstances be considered for the government's programs for those looking to benefit from them. Those that are constantly handed freebies will never see any reason to change their lifestyle or habits.
I understand what you are saying. Sadly there will always be people that game the system.
The way I look at it is there are people that would like to work yet cannot because of some medical condition. Imo a healthy populace is a more productive populace.
There has to be an in-between where really needing people can get help while at the same time screening for career deadbeats.
What about your idea of civil discourse & unity?
I don't believe I ever said anything about "unity"... I have in fact stated that diversity is not only a good thing, but generally beneficial for a society.
While I have advocated for civil discourse, that does not preclude pointing out aberrant behavior. It sounds like your notion of "civil discourse" means never saying anything derogatory about anything. It is perfectly possible to point out bad behavior in a "civil" way.
This from the guy that calls Hillary Clinton 'Abuela'.
It drips with hypocrisy.
Being thought of as and being ridiculed as are two different things.
Did she ask you to call her Abuela five years later?
The only ones who use that name are those who think Hillary Clinton jokes are still timely. Some people have no clue.
I am just sitting here remembering the mocking "beer-summit" where a sitting president had to sit and have 'a moment' to put down the fiery rhetoric from the Right's 24/7 sound machine. Here have a look:
Drill into the picture, realize this: There are three men there trying to soothe the 'ruffled feathers' of the fourth man? Guess which man needs to come away with a good 'report' for his supporters? Yep. That's him!
Vic, you got anything like that of Donald Trump making 'sorry' with anybody he offended in four years? I can't recall it, if you can help me out!
It sure as fuck isn't as an endearment Tex.
Oh ya, that was the time Henry Lewis Gates thought the cops were picking on him because he was black. The Cambridge Police were called by a neighbor when Gates was having trouble getting into his own house. They thought he was trying to break in. The cop in that photo had an exemplary record with the Cambridge Police Department.
Another instance of when Obama reacted to every racial incident that appeared in the news. How un-presidential that was!
Continued disgust of hypocrisy Tex.
Then we're in agreement.
No, it's never saying anything derogatory about the 'president' or his criminal enterprise administration or the first 'lady'.
Any democrat/liberal/progressive is up for grabs.
I can spell the name of the 'president' right, it's tRumpTurd.
There is no perfect way to be in community with other people. Community just is. And we ought to try to tame our worse inclinations for the good of the whole.
Where the rubber meets the road I see it something like this:
There are people who really, truly, look for all the world to be suitable and appropriate, but they are severely broken (and weak and frightened) inside, thus at the end of the day they need all the help they can get in the hopes of being mind, body, and spiritually whole one day.
It does no good for successive, talkative, audience-driven millionaires and billionaires to talk about achievements or over-achievements to these indigent people struggling along the bottom. Nor does it help their self-esteem to have 24/7 radio shock jocks exploiting their failures or lack to make a world-class platform and continuation of their own professional endeavors. More could be elaborated on that!
The fact is we have a "wealthy SOG (Son Of a Gun) in office named Donald Trump who is spending millions of public dollars on investigations and political 'combat' and vengeance - while poor suffering people watch and can't find ways to prosper. No one is complaining about these 'hefty' expenditures (as if it would do any good) and 24/7 radio shock jocks are all onboard for the activity.
However, the same set of people will tell you poor rank and file workers who can no longer cope should find a chapel, temple, church somewhere to plead their cases and not expect anything from the 'storehouse' of their government.
(Just some thoughts on 'tap.' I may have drifted a bit there. A tad distracted at the moment.)
Vic, you got anything like that of Donald Trump making 'sorry' with anybody he offended in four years? I can't recall it, if you can help me out!
No, Donald Trump isn't the one advocating for civility here. Since some have, as usual made him the topic, let me remind you that Civilization grants us prosperity and leisure time and a decent way to live. It tames us, but the world around us is not tame! For that and to preserve our Civilization we need someone like Trump!
Wow, that wins the bullshit award of the YEAR!
How sad our civilization must be if it needs the likes of Donald Trump to preserve it.
Sad indeed. And downright pathetic too. If civilization needs Donald Trump to save it, then perhaps civilization isn't worth saving?
If you want to talk with me, at some point you have to acknowledge that everything I say isn't necessarily "bullshit" and everything you say isn't necessarily "documentary."
How sad our civilization must be if it needs the likes of Donald Trump to preserve it.
Sad but necessary!
I think it was in the movie "The Magnificent Seven" where the village (via much blood letting) is saved. I think it was Steven McQueen who concludes I think the people are happy now and Yul Brynner responds with They'll be happier when we're gone! So it goes with those who we find offensive, but get the job done vs evil.
Trump couldn't preserve his presidency let alone the country.
I'm hearing some of that from CA citizens seeking to recall the governor and Staten Island citizens standing tall against their governor.
Living within a society also comes with the implicit understanding that at times, sacrifices of individual convenience (not rights, mind you) will be expected should the society as a whole thrive, much less survive.
Those sacrifices need to be shared by all it's members, not just the muscular class.
But just an opinion from a lone individual living in a societal construct that becomes more difficult by the day to understand.
It may be getting easier.
Amen to that!
If YOU want to talk to me you will address what I actually posted rather than what you fabricate.
I didn't say 'EVERYTHING' you said is bullshit. I block quoted the specific sentence that earned the bullshit award of the YEAR.
Much closer to delusional.
Well Trump sure as fuck fulfilled the 'much blood letting' part of your scenario. What's the current total, 308,000+?
He's failing to 'hit his mark' on the leaving part of the story...
by a deletion ?
At the top of this thread, you opened the door to other presidents that includes Donald, Barack, and Joe. Your believes that Donald Trump can politically 'slap' the fool out of everybody and anybody aside, you're right to state Donald Trump is not a supporter of civility. Now, as to the untamed places in our world, Donald Trump is pal'ing around with Russia "the brute" country that has been ransacking our cyber-world connections for months and so far Donald is muted on Twitter and Fox News about it.
Donald won't make Vladimir be sorry for offending us and the implication is Trump supporters are okay with that! That's incoherent. Donald hits everybody who 'hits' his so call tough brand.
Back to Barack. . . all demanded he treat some police-officer with deference. Y'all put no demand on Donald who disrespects everybody who gets in his way publicly. That's incoherent.
Back to Joe . . . I will watch this place for how a president who is open, straightforward, and compromising is treated by Vic Eldred and Trump supporters. Will you accept a man who is striving to do right by you. Or, will some conservatives hand him a figurative 'bloodied' hand after the shake.
So unconscionable is President Donald Trump that with 300,000 plus of our citizens dead to a virus and hospitals full of the ill, he has not called for flags to fly at half-mast or a national day of mourning. The whole nation is sick. And, Donald Trump overlooks it every day.
How uncivilized is that?
unless he idolizes them...
and or they have"dirt" on him that might "piss on, not off" him
It's called "Cause and Effect".
'Civilization grants us prosperity?' That is too nebulous and impressionistic to mean anything. Labour creates wealth. Donald Trump is an anarchist with nihilist tendencies that are likely an outgrowth of his malignant narcissism. Not long ago, he was extolled as the Great Wrecking Ball. Now [apparently] he performs the opposite task of 'preserving.'
Actually, neither of those statements have effective meaning. Much of what passes as civil discourse amounts to the creation and peddling of imagery. We're supposed to take the images, true or not, and bow down to them [in the sense that the 'image' guides our behavior]. The intention is that behavior will be guided in the class interests of the 1%.
Actually, Donald Trump himself does very little that I can see.
I've never seen Trump as a problem but always as a symptom.
Anyone who actually wants the top job is probably a narcissist.
The President is vanquished--long live the President.
Perhaps JH Biden was correct. 'Nothing will change.'
Kavika! Spot on. That is the rub; Donald rushed in, bull-dozed and steamrolled the system, build a political skyscraper, populated that 'tower,' and never took stock of the wrecking ball and crew headed in his new political digs direction from the harbor.
Every four years, if somebody leads us, who does not 'count the cost' s/he will face the political wreckers and their fresh air machines!
Donald was warned. Do not talk to us that way. Instead treat us like the adults we are and perhaps all else will follow after. But no, he is unrelenting to the end. So we toss this Trumphole out into the political bushes unceremoniously. Donald you shall not be cried over, even as you cared not to cry over us!
Since i N joy showing White and Blue Collars, how to turn Red, buy reading arguments i'm not buying, then replying, and in my own way, stating what it is i do tend to say, irregardless of consequences. Cause when TRUTH Denial equals CONSEQUENCES quite Vile, i'll state in various a style, that which sometimes need stated,
know matter how much they don't,
or how much hated, causes for me, to be elated whence i see Lies eradicated for the benefit of the less educated who tend to wish i be desecrated for stating obviously what they aren't getting, as in the obvious, as some tend to berate what eye see as words need stated, thus, i feel they need be stated, and i'm not always the best to be the one that States, whence it comes to be bringing together and
United, :it now Dawns on me,
as You Knighted and States via deletion ,
as my Diplomatic skills near Depletion,
that YOUR (mannerism via mild) , courteous engagement, and or Deletion,
Bee a better non venomous stinger,
than say, another torn apart one line zinger stitched together by a Singer Sown and Shown, to produce the middle Finger, as fabricated fabric was meant to be torn, not wared and worn, asz forewarned have bin stored most, that have read what i do post , sew delete away, N E N ALL , that witch i can't spell ore post, cause in bread we toast, N inn the Deliverance of toast eyes Blackened Bread White Wholly like iii'z, ingrained wit knew tree ants that infest, watt i herd U state better via omission, than say i stating on a mission, nary a posit to position,
as i see on top,
the higher ground taken,
but as usual, probably i'm knot mist taken,
for Granite, as some don't like to read what i make red, on this Daily Planet Sew Clarke with (mannerisms via mild) stitch together thye seeds and deeds that which you have sown and shown do grow positive deeds, while my positive became the negative like my seeds, cause they be my Kryptonite tonight, and every other good Knight
Define: "Free person." Does the definition accurately describe any individual's state in North America?
You recently claimed to not be a far right winger yet you bring up long debunked claims against Obama.
All of your posts are far right. Who do you think you're kidding?
Digression. Is that the best you have?
I get the feeling that Vic thinks that the only way to preserve our civilization is for all the liberals to kick the bucket or convert to Vic Eldred Conservatism.
You have, inadvertently no doubt, put your finger on one of the major problems. One of the clearest realizations in the history of this country, hell, in the history of the world, is that Donald Trump is unfit to hold office in a great country. Because so many of his supporters and Republican voters have refused to accept this base reality , we have a country that is split in two.
The peacemakers and 'both siders' just want everyone to get along, and they bear their own blindness and bring denial to the table. One would think that all the conspiracy theories deluged on us by Trumpsters over the past decade would make the "both siders" have second thoughts, but so far not much.
I'm not going to kumbaya with Q Anon people, or Benghazi "truthers" , or people that think Hillary Clinton had dozens of people murdered. It's nuts.
Hi John,
The peacemakers and 'both siders' just want everyone to get along, and they bear their own blindness and bring denial to the table. One would think that all the conspiracy theories deluged on us by Trumpsters over the past decade would make the "both siders" have second thoughts, but so far not much.
I agree with you that it is absurd to draw any comparison between Trump and Obama... ABSURD!!!!!!
But I do not see the point of yelling my thoughts at the other side. It doesn't make me feel any better to do that... It really doesn't accomplish anything.
I realize it may not do any good... but I am just begging for some kind of civility and genuine empathy.
One man's yelling is another man's making a point.
The political right has been unreasonable for almost 30 years now, and it can be definitely traced back to a specific occurrence. Rush Limbaugh became the first national ideologically right radio talk show in 1993 and he immediately coined the phrase , for his listeners , "America Held Hostage". He wasnt referring to Iran, he was referring to the Clinton presidency. A few years later Fox News came along. The nation has spent almost thirty years in the grip of right wing bamboozling. No wonder tens of millions of people are brainwashed.
At this point, with about 70 or 80 million people thinking Trump was cheated, there is almost no hope for the near future of "getting along". And we have people in the "middle" saying we need to find common ground with the brainwashed. It is highly unlikely.
As long as they learn to keep their hands, feet, and weapons off me and mine, I am okay with letting them think any ridiculous thing they wish. But, they do want more and more-don't they?
I am going to add that, the brainwashed have the choice of presenting their minds to the machinations of propaganda, but then I am reminded that this has been a persistent effort that has gained new followers to the cause and a captured audience literally born and raised into its 'fold.'
Here is where the rubber meets the road in our country: Some conservatives are leaving the republican party out the 'crack' in the frame. Even as the 'madness' erupts and excites the center of that party. Steve Schmidt, a republican strategist, has cursed what is republicanism now and joined up with the democratic party—he is bringing his talents to us! That speaks volumes: "conservative democrats" in our party is having a grow spurt.
Can you address 6.4 as well?
Seems a bit more overboard by comparison to JR's passion.
Suz, Donald Trump is a known pathological liar, crook, bigot, moron and cheat. These are not wild guesses about him, these are things that are known about him. (And that is all before he tried to steal the recent election. )
Please tell me why you think such a person is fit to lead a great nation.
I must admit that I am surprised at how far Trump supporters are going with this election fraud insanity. Too many of them actually believe it. And given they hold this belief not based on facts and reason but simply on faith in Trump, it is like giving up a religion.
When rationality fails what is the recourse?
I'm sure they actually believe it. After all, I'll bet many of them also believe in YEC, evolution being pseudoscience, god/s are real, and other similar nonsense. There is no rationality to be found.
No, John, it's because the radical left doesn't believe in the Constitution. Donald Trump was elected by the people in 2016, regardless of your opinion of him.
BTW, It was he who exposed what really divides us - The elite globalists who intend to rule and degrade the working class. It is class which divides us.
I'm not going to kumbaya
Neither am I
By that exact same reasoning, Trump was not elected in 2020. Yet look at how many people support his efforts to try to bullshit his way into a second term. I suspect JR is referring to how many people are up in arms today because they want Trump to be PotUS and are even willing to support / defend his fraudulent efforts to stay PotUS.
As I noted earlier, I am quite surprised (and disappointed) at the level of support people are giving Trump as he engages in the biggest con-job of his life.
Then you are wrong. JR always (since I've been here) argued that Donald Trump was unfit to serve and should have been removed one way or another.
Yes JR has been against Trump all along. Obviously, Vic. I was referring to what I think JR is focused on right now — the fact that so many Trump supporters continue to support Trump as he engages in his election fraud con.
So, to be crystal clear, yes indeed we all know JRs position on Trump since we saw it every single day Trump was in office (and before). That is a given. But now, since Trump is leaving, the current issue is the remaining support of Trump that will likely continue after he leaves office. Supporting Trump, out of office, given the actions that he is engaging in right now —which should convince every rational mind what a miserable, narcissistic piece of shit he is— is an indicator of a nasty national divide.
There are millions of Republican and or Trump voters who believe in absurd conspiracy theories. Much of that is fueled by "white grievance", the so called 'fear of a black planet' that will result from inevitably changing demographics. White people will become a minority , which some whites perceive as them losing "their " country (even though whites would still be the largest US ethnic group for many decades to come , they just wont represent a majority). All this fear was put in motion by the candidacy and election of Barack Obama, hence the racist birther conspiracy that was eventually headed by Donald Trump.
I said on NT 5 years ago that eventually Trump supporters would have to be dealt with more than Trump himself. Now we are seeing it in right wingers refusal to accept the election results. .
There is going to be that, but what is more important is that the 74 Million stay the course, should it be he or more likely someone else in 2024.
given the actions that he is engaging in right now
Too bad you weren't thinking about that when slimeball Marc Elias was filing all those lawsuits to subvert State Legislatures during the summer. You got what you wanted, but there will be a price to be paid for the way that election was conducted.
which should convince every rational mind what a miserable, narcissistic piece of shit he is
To the contrary, what an evil & powerful cast that we must defeat at every turn!
is an indicator of a nasty national divide.
All of it coming from the left
Hi Friend CB,
You know I'm no Christian and don't even pretend to be one. But I've had enough of the Church's teachings drilled into my head to know that maybe it is better to forgive and forget than to continue nursing a grudge or harboring a need for revenge.
Somebody has to take the first step. This continual denigration of trump and his supporters are getting us no where. Better to shake our heads and the dust off our feet than to continue to try and change their minds. They have the right to their opinion. We can listen and then when it gets to the point of absurdity (to us), then it's time to walk away.
I never thought turmp was suited for POTUS. But he's almost gone. We can put this chapter of history in the book and refer back once in a while if we get confused or lose our way.
Better to shake our heads and the dust off our feet than to continue to try and change their minds. They have the right to their opinion. We can listen and then when it gets to the point of absurdity (to us), then it's time to walk away.
Very pragmatic... and probably the best thing any of us can do... meanwhile, American democracy is going up in flames.
Hey John,
I'm just wondering if you can give me a brief explanation of what a "both sider" is.
I'm thinking you may be thinking I am one of these "both siders"... For the record, and as I have stated something like this in other comments, I think "Trump is unfit to hold office in a great country." In fact, that characterization is not nearly harsh enough for my taste.
JR defines 'both sider' as an individual who does not deem everything that Trump does as an extreme negative.
True, and it's hard for me to even want to have a conversation with such persons with "civility and genuine empathy" or even see the benefit to doing so.
If someone is convinced the earth is flat and is trying to convince me of the same, I know that person is delusional and needs professional help to unravel why they have created such a fucking insane delusion. I'm not a professional therapist so all I can do is recommend they see someone who can help. And while I can refrain from telling that person to their face they're insane, I feel it's my right to express my opinion about the group of people who believe such utter nonsense.
I can point at the small pool of either complete morons or delusional idiots who believe the world is flat and say "that group is fucking insane. Now if I said such a thing and a flat-earther heard or read what I said and self-identified with that group and got angry at my assessment of them, that's on them. I don't believe in coddling insanity or not calling it what it is just so I don't hurt tin foil hat wearing delusional conspiracy theorists feelings. I suppose this does change a bit depending on how large a group I am voicing my opinion about and how much access they might have to me but that hesitancy comes from the fear of physical violence from people I know are already insane and might do anything to harm others.
So, when a conspiracy theory grows large enough to threaten peoples lives like Qanon has, make sure you voice your opinion through the anonymity of the internet. Otherwise you might get an armed nut job showing up at your house with an assault rifle demanding to see the child sex dungeon they think is in your basement.
"15 June 2018: An Arizona resident blocks a bridge near the Hoover Dam with an armored vehicle. He later pleads guilty to a terrorism charge." He "was unhappy that Trump had not yet made the mass arrests QAnon supporters had anticipated".
"19 December 2018: A California man is arrested after being found with what appeared to be bomb-making materials in his car, in an alleged plot to blow up a satanic display in the capitol in Springfield, Illinois." He wanted to "make Americans aware of Pizzagate and the New World Order'."
"13 March 2019: In Staten Island, a 24-year-old man allegedly murders a leader in the Gambino crime family." He “ardently believed that Francesco Cali, a boss in the Gambino crime family, was a prominent member of the deep state" and was "certain that he was enjoying the protection of President Trump himself, and that he had the president’s full support".
"2 April 2020: A man is charged with intentionally derailing a freight train near the navy hospital ship Mercy in Los Angeles." He “admitted during an interview that he had run the train beyond the track because he believed the Mercy was part of suspicious activities involving the coronavirus”
"11 June 2020: A Boston man leads police on a 20-mile car chase while livestreaming himself talking about QAnon." “Donald Trump, I need a miracle or something,” Alpalus Slyman said during his 11 June car chase (which he was live streaming) across Massachusetts and New Hampshire. “QAnon, help me. QAnon, help me!”. The 29-year-old man’s five children, ages 13, five, two, one and eight months, were also in the car, “in distress and needing help”, police said. “We don’t want to die,” one of his daughters screamed at one point. “Slyman warned his children during the chase that the police were coming to abduct them – or maybe just shoot them in a staged killing,”
There are many more, but the point is, these are dangerous people who need professional help, not just a hearing ear they're going to try and dump all their insanity into if given the chance.
'All those lawsuits' Vic? All 2 of them?
Marc Elisa is the DNC's attorney. Why are you calling him a slimeball?
Oh and are the lawsuits filled by the RNC's attorney equally culpable? Or do they get a pass?
Ah... I see... Thanks, TiG!
For present purposes, a "both sider" is someone who blames both the Democrats and Republicans and , in general, "partisans" for the rise of Donald Trump.
I am a Democrat and I take absolutely no blame for Trump. I knew definitively in 2011 when he led his insane birther crusade that this man was utterly unfit to hold office in the United States. A world class "businessman" would have called the office of the governor of Hawaii and asked them about Obama's birth certificate in 2011. He would have immediately found out that Obama's birth certificate had been inspected , twice, in the state's archives, and all was in order. But Trump didnt do that, which any legitimate "world class" businessman would have done, he went on the Today Show and Good Morning America and said he had sent detectives to Hawaii to find out "what was going on" (he never sent anyone). So Trump's incompetence and pathological lying was on exhibit 10 years ago. How did this man get a presidential nomination?
Still, there are always those who want to give Trump some sort of a break and blame "partisanship". To hell with that.
Oh, I see, so if one is against partisanship in principle then that someone necessarily blames Ds and Rs for the rise of Trump. Interesting leap of logic.
Where do you find people blaming Ds for Trump? Closest I can see for that is putting forth a candidate who could actually lose to Trump. Other than that failure, where do you find people blaming Ds for Trump? Not getting out and voting? Something else?
Why make statements that have no basis in fact? There may be a handful of lefties that "don't believe in the Constitution", but I dare say there are plenty of righties who demonstrate disdain for the Constitution. It is entirely possible to be either left or right and strive for what you want entirely within the bounds set forth in the Constitution. Putting forward the notion that only people who agree with me and want what I want have respect for the constitution is counter productive and downright illogical. The Constitution provides room for a very broad spectrum of ideologies.
Donald Trump was elected by the people in 2016, regardless of your opinion of him.
True. Thank goodness we only have 4 or 5 more weeks of him we will have to endure.
Hey John,
I completely agree with all you have said about Trump. I was just dumbfounded when he got elected. It is very clear from your words that you are angry... and you have every right to be angry. Hell, I'm angry... for that matter, Trump lovers are angry too. That is why I am lobbying for a little calm... if this anger gets much worse, things are going to get really ugly. Furthermore, I take no pleasure and find no relief in venting at all the people who think Trump is the second coming. It doesn't make things any better. We have to find a way to live peacefully with the 74 million people who voted for him. Eventually most of them will see the error of their ways.
Wrong!
From April:
Elias has already filed more than 20 lawsuits in 14 states challenging voting procedures. He expects that before the year is out, the number could easily double, with much of the focus on states Democrats are planning to heavily contest, such as Georgia, Florida, Wisconsin and Texas.
Marc Elisa is the DNC's attorney. Why are you calling him a slimeball?
You mean Marc Elias - and before that he was a lawyer at Perkins Coie, who hired Fusion GPS for the Clinton campaign.
Have a good one!
a) Approaching controversial conversation with civility and genuine empathy keeps the blood pressure down a bit.
and
b) Ranting and raving will only harden the thinking of the person that is being assailed with heated language.
and
c) (This is something I learned on the Vine, and probably the most prescient point) The person to whom your comment is address is not the only one that may see it. On more than one occasion on the Vine, after a lengthy back and forth with someone, I had other people chime in saying (paraphrase), "I don't agree with everything you said, but you did make some good points... furthermore, I have a better understanding of and more respect and tolerance for people like you."
I'm pretty sure that even in Massachusetts, summer starts well after April.
Which fails to explain why you call him a slimeball.
Okay, this comes out of nowhere. Plus it is pure presumption. Try to stay focused.
Have you seen what the 'right' has been writing? Have you seen what the 'right' has been doing? Note this little piece of wisdom: if you ever think it is all the fault of 'them' / 'the other side' then you are not being objective. The phrase 'it takes two' is conventional wisdom that seems to hold true in life.
This support of Trump's election fraud con has done considerable damage to this nation. Part of Trump's legacy will be that he was one of the most divisive presidents we have had in recent history.
TG. I hear you. I try to do my best to let Trump and his supporters go their own way. But, then "Katy, bar the door" —here they come again! Messing, vexing, and ruining the simple joys left in (my) life!
Tell that to Europe's Jewish population.
This support of Trump's election fraud con has done considerable damage to this nation.
No, the changes made to election rules (in some cases unconstitutional) has done the damage.
He's a slime ball because he's a Democrat...according to Vic
Do you believe that these changes to election rules enabled Biden to steal this election? Do you actually believe Trump won??
Best argument ever for civility in a discussion. You might not get everyone to listen, but even if you get someone to listen, it was worth it. Well done Mal!
I was not then and it is not now Donald's business to see anything belonging to Obama. As demonstrated by the last four years, where that Trumphole could have pillaged the records of his fabricated enemy and has not done so.
I'd imagine Donald will get out of office and launch a similar vexation tactic with VP-Elect Kamala Harris straightway as Vice-President. She should be properly prepared to give him something else to talk about (that he can not ignore) about himself!
So how is that court challenge progressing? What? No court challenges scheduled?
I don't really know. I do know that there are some very troubling issues that have come out of it. I seeded an article on it:
That seed was a joke.
Her husband got her elected as VP?
A credibility killing allegation.
'No, John, it's because the radical left doesn't believe in the Constitution. Donald Trump was elected by the people in 2016, regardless of your opinion of him.
BTW, It was he who exposed what really divides us - The elite globalists who intend to rule and degrade the working class. It is class which divides us.'
Sorry, but I don't see you recognizing the 'radical left' if it bled to death on your front lawn. I fit your 'radical left' depiction more than anyone on this forum. Yet you also articulate a key, Marxian tenant -- the ruling elite intentionally degrades and rules the working class. It IS class which divides us, and it is most intentional.
You stand to be corrected in that the ruling 'elite' is not 'globalist' but nationalist. This is seen in Trump's representation of the elite [whether you wish or not to be cognizant of that]. Trump's nationalism is seen in the 'America first' claim. Remember -- it is the working class which are the only and the true globalists. As Marx' manifesto called on workers of the world to unite, it is evident that the only country of the worker is the international working class.
Take care, Vic!
I don't think there's any credibility left to kill.
Trumpers (like Trump) have no concept of empathy.
But the lefties are the misogynistic ones....
That's a surprisingly insightful bit of self-assessment.
Hi Vic,
I'll own up to calling Trump unfit, a self serving egomaniac, and various other derogatory things... but illegitimate, no... I never said he wasn't legitimately elected. Even Hillary conceded he won on election night... Trump knows he didn't win this time... But he still hasn't conceded.
Trump won the first time around because...
a) Way too many people (me included) thought he had no chance...
and...
b) There was a lot of discontent among Democrats with Hillary.
Those two things leading to many people to sit out the 2016 election.
I realize there are 74 million people who still think he is just what America needs... honestly, I don't understand that... In fact I am absolutely flabbergasted that many people cannot see his blatantly obvious self-serving motives... not to mention his over the top narcissism.
I didn't care for George W. Bush... and said so with vehemence when he was elected. But I gotta tell ya, compared to Trump, GWB looks like Einstein, Gandhi, and Mother Teresa all rolled into one person.
Well, I'm glad you are happy with what he's done. From my perspective, he hasn't don't anything I want... and he has done lots of stuff I find absolutely disgusting.
In this discussion I'm somewhat unique because I'm not an American, but a Canadian citizen my whole life, something I will NEVER change. What both the libs and the righties do is "stand by their man" with respect to EVERYTHING - always right, never wrong. Having no skin in the game I can look at it more objectively and say that nobody's perfect and nobody does EVERYTHING right or EVERYTHING wrong. At first I felt that Trump was okay because he did something that I personally preferred, and that was he kept his promises about Israel (promises made but never kept by previous presidents), declared Jerusalem to be Israel's capital and moved the Embassy there, declared that Israel was entitled to annex the Golan Heights and did not dispute the legal legitimacy of the settlements. As well, during his tenure he has and is still providing support for and encouraging Arab nations to normalize with Israel, with success. IMO he deserves credit and appreciation for those things. Maybe he even deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for that (although I'm sure the Palestinians would never be happy about it). It's just that I despise pretty well everything else he has done and is doing. But at least I'm being fair.
I have been fair to Donald too. For good works I give him his due, but for what remains I subtract and am vexed each and every time and day! Even this moment, I give Donald credit for the role he played as leader helping to get Messenger RNA into this new coronavirus vaccine group. But, he was definitely wrong to let the virus rampage and ruin our land. If only he could listen to wise council he might have saved himself. He did not listen to wise counsel and "it is as it is."
Even if Covid never happened Trump would be unfit for high office. We dont need to look for ways to try and credit him with something.
It is what it is all right, and what it is is that he is the worst president in US history.
John, I am not going out my way to credit Donald Trump. I fully remember all the dirty, dastardly, bastard things Donald has done that disqualify him from being a good policy person (for my politics). However, I can be fair to consider where his value has proven out in those occasions where it has. For instance, his commutation and full pardon to Alice Johnson, a black woman serving a life sentence for drug possession. It is a good thing, and I can't turn my nose up at him for helping her out of jail.
Also, as a prayer 'warrior' I can not tell you have many prayers I uttered in and out of group asking for deliverance for the world, for my nation, to this blight-test pandemic. So now some relief is arriving - I would be a lie and the truth not in me - to COVET or not give credit to any and all involved in their respective roles for making this end come nearer. Trump for his agency, researchers for their intellect, God for declaring relief in the midst of a trial.
I always try to remember to have some humility in me. That is, to give credit where and when it is due.
Getting NATO countries to pay their fair share in defense spending wasn't a good thing?
Getting NAFTA reworked to be a more fair trade deal wasn't a good thing?
Calling out our "allies" for their unfair trade practices wasn't a good thing?
Trying to force China into fair trade practices wasn't a good thing?
I can't stand Trump. I never wanted him for president to begin with. I thought he and Hillary were the two worst candidates ever put forward by the major parties. I voted for and campaigned for Gary Johnson that time around. For that I was blasted mercilessly by the left. I wasn't expecting Johnson to win; just to get 10% of the vote so the Libertarian Party could get federal funding for the next federal elections. They weren't even close. Second time around I voted for the lesser of two evils. It wasn't a vote for Trump; it was a vote against Democrats at every level of government for the last 5 years of shit they put this country through. First time ever I have voted straight Republican ticket.
I agree with you whole heartedly Trump is completely out for himself; but at least he is predictable. He will never take any actions that will harm his businesses or his family (so long as they are in good standing with him that is). His administration, if not Trump himself, did a few good things.
Hi Ma,
Well the first step in preventing a "Civil War" would be to stop calling him that, right?
Trump won the first time around because...
a) Way too many people (me included) thought he had no chance...
and...
b) There was a lot of discontent among Democrats with Hillary.
Those two things leading to many people to sit out the 2016 election.
Interesting interpretation. I also doubted he had any chance, but I went out and voted for him. I had been on NV during the 2016 RNC primaries. Everyone knew I liked either Rubio or Cruz. Somebody asked me about Trump and I said I thought he had little chance, but he is the one who I would most like to see in the WH. It was he who had all the conviction on securing the border, it was he who put the nation first and it was he alone who I heard say "our workers" and "our farmers" and I will never forget that supreme Trumpism - "Beautiful clean coal!"
So you think he won the first time because he took everyone by surprise?
After a term in office an incredible 74 Million voted for him again and a movement has been born!
... the courtesy flush takes place 1/20/21.
Actually that's the day the toilet takes on more than it can handle.
[removed]
The vast majority of what Donald Trump has told the American people is either flat out untrue or misleading. Is that what you call "laying his cards on the table" ?
If guess if someone believes that the government is all broken and doesn't benefit them in any way and just takes money from their pocket and tries to limit the arsenal they can own, they wouldn't really care about the personality of the arsonist they hire to burn it all down. I believe that's what many of Trumps supporters wanted, someone to come in and light a fire to what they perceived as "the establishment". Some of those in "the establishment" quickly picked up the pitchforks and torches of their constituents and pretended not to be part of the establishment and have become vocal supporters of Trump even though they too find him disgusting and wish they had never been put in this position having to abandon common sense and their education to avoid being burned at the proverbial stake.
"You knew damned well I was a snake before you took me in" - Donald Trump January 2016
Well more than half of Americans said "Get that snake away from us!" in 2016 so it feels a little shallow to blame them for America getting bit and poisoned.
I've been reading your seed and the comments with great interest. I was most interested in getting an of what your idea of what 'reasonable and civil' looked like.
In your 6.1.4 is the example I was waiting for.
6.1.9 was just what I was expecting in reply though I find it interesting that it failed to take issue with characterizing Trump as a 'malignant narcissist'.
I've been criticized from both sides [sorry John] for my 'tone'. Some take issue with my use of 'profanity'.
It may be a personal limitation but I find it almost impossible to find a better word for bullshit than bullshit. Inserting more 'sophisticated' synonyms like 'applesauce' or 'horsepucky' or any of the other euphemisms seems childish and just don't quite cut it. I my opinion, it would be unreasonable to avoid using THE perfect word to describe a posit or proclamation.
When I was younger, we would sit for hours in diners and then in bars, debating the events of the day and the people in and out of power. We debated the Civil rights movement, Nixon, Nam, the draft, Agent Orange and even A Clockwork Orange. Civility was viewed as showing your opponent enough respect not to try and bullshit them, no gaslighting, no whataboutisms. Being reasonable was viewed as accepting facts when they were presented to you and maybe even altering your position to meet those facts.
It seem to me that we have come to a place where all too many demand that others accept that there is an alternate set of facts. No matter how much refuting data is supplied, there are those that are dug in and prefer cognitive dissonance over facts.
Having civil discourse with someone of that mindset is nigh on impossible.
I sure as hell hope we don't end up with civil war!!!! But when I see corruption, blatant naked unapologetic corruption, I feel it is my duty to call it what it is. There is a big difference between being civil, and being nicey nicey sycophant that never says anything negative about anything.
Even though "that shit" destroyed all environmental safeguards.
You do know that CO2 levels aren't the only environmental metrics for air quality right?
Environmental safeguards are for more than just air quality.
Easy. People, corporations and municipalities know what to do to reduce the carbon emissions and they did it. Regardless of the administration.
Read my post again! I didn't mention anything about numbers. You're quoting someone else but attributing it to me.
The reduced vehicular traffic & travelling from Covid restrictions also helped.
I gave you a perfectly good link with extensive documentation.
BTW, Trump didn't manage to gut the Clean Air Act.
As for things like mercury in water, wetlands and drinking water standards, well Trump has done is 'best'. /s
I've already given you a link. If you have no desire to investigate the information there, I can't force you. BTW, NBER has an 'About' tab on their website.
“Should we accept the new president”
Biden is completely unfit for office. He is a globalist/establishment politician that put himself first for decades. He will not put us first. He has dementia. He will not last a full term. It’s a shame and a disgrace the first female president will get the job by default and will go to a person that won less delegates that tulsi gabbard in the primaries. No way in hell i accept this piece of shit as president, nor will i accept harris when she takes over.
Exhibit A
If you have something to say to me say it, don’t be afraid.
I did.
Very articulate, john.
...that put himself first...
Biden... Puts himself first?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???????!!!!!
Hoo boy!!!! Talk about living on two different planets.
First of all, politicians are generally known for having some measure of self-interest. But Joe Biden... is an extraordinarily genuine and faithful public servant.
But... uh... I hate to point this out, but there is no one... absolutely no one... who is more self-serving than Donald Trump! Full stop.
Unless you believe Hunter's business associates that are selling both of them out for lesser prison sentences.
Then Joe is a self serving asshole that would sell this country out for money. The same thing the left has accused Trump of for the last 5 years.
Last I heard, Joe Biden is President E;ect, not Hunter.
Yeah, talk is cheat. Prove it. Should be easy enough, as republicans and conservatives have been wielding our levers of government for years now. It is only in a last ditch effort to vex the incoming administration that 'the wasp' tries to use its stinger. Laid out the case already or its just so much noise.
Let them dream; this time Donald won't have the levers of power to talk his brand of shit throughout. They will cry foul, but who cares? Courts have sent them packing with their 'home-made' weak sauce.
Biden is sane.
Trump is insane.
[deleted]
“is an extraordinarily genuine and faithful public servant.”
then you don’t know much about the senator from mbna.
Says the guy who has described progressives as "human scum"more than once here.
BS.
There is the matter of the 8 years prior to that.
Sorry, are we talking about Obama or Trump?
Shall I say it again? I'm not the one asking for love & forgiveness here.
They haven't repented!
BS.
That's quite a comeback.
There is the matter of the 8 years prior to that.
The 8 year honeymoon?
[removed]
What about the 8 years prior to Obama? Think Bush Jr was treated fairly? The tin foil hat brigade proudly saying that 9/11 was an inside job. Then there were those saying 9/11 occurred because of his incompetence forgetting the terrorists wandering the US gaining training, and planning for the last eight months of the Clinton administration. Followed by those that criticized him for reading a book to young children in school- rather than bolting when he first received word of the World Trade Center being hit. That was followed by Afghanistan, Iraq, and then the economic collapse (something that was put into motion well before he ever took office). Funny how all of those voices disappeared as soon as Obama took office and proceeded to become Bush on steroids.
How far back do you want to go? Because it really didn't start with Bush Jr either. Democrats would claim it started with Clinton; but they would be forgetting how they treated Bush Sr and Reagan. Of course then there is Carter before them. I am sure we can go back even farther than that still.
Now Democrats and their media lemmings are calling for everyone to calm down and just accept Joe; while at the same time bashing some for calling out any voting inconsistencies/irregularities; and continuing their attacks on those that support Trump? I am sure that will work./S
Right on. I don't really have anything to add to that; you listed Democrats and Republicans alike there.
At one time I was considered a centerist- until I was attacked repeatedly and lumped into the Trump crowd.
Both of the Establishment parties suck. They are both out to enrich themselves and those that support them. They are two sides of the same damn coin; and love it when we are at each others' throats; because it allows them to cram through more shit that will hurt all of us.
I was for vote for the best candidate regardless of party (I voted independent and third party as often as I did Establishment parties). I was taught the error of my ways, it cost me several friends on the left- one of them tried to reach out after Biden won; but the damage was already done. From now on it is the lesser of two evils. Going independent or 3rd party is a waste of a vote. Our system is rigged for the two Establishment Parties to win no matter what. A 3rd party may gain traction for a short time (Ross Perot) but it is doomed to die out.
I know my conservative friends would chide me; but I would really love to have a talk with Jimmy Carter. I wasn't in favor of his presidency; but the man is a great diplomat. If I were president he would get sick of me calling him for diplomat advise. He would be my choice for someone outside of the administration to talk to governments we couldn't deal directly with. His presidency was a disaster; but he doesn't get credit for what he was truly good at. That and his work for habit for humanity. Like Bush Jr he has done far more outside the Presidency than he did in it.
That seems to happen frequently.
I've said that all along too.
I never voted third party. Last time I voted though... it was for Kerry if that tells you how long it's been since I thought there was a candidate somewhat worthy of a vote.
I was born in Carter's last year serving as POTUS, so I can't really speak much to it. My mom liked Carter.
HUH? That made no sense.
Sorry, the premise of this article, while admirable, is too little too late.
Sorry John, I was saying this sort of thing a long time ago... I suppose it hasn't done any good... but I really have no interest in joining in the food fight... so this is pretty much all I have to say.
It's not a food fight. A "food fight" supposes that both sides have an equal claim on reality. This is a fight for the future of our country.
The possible reality of progressives being in charge of everything is not in the best interest for the future of our country
For me, the term "food fight" is more about the style of interaction than the content of what is said.
I agree that "the future of our country" is what is at stake.
It is my contention that nothing will be achieved if we are only throwing hate bombs at each other. You may say, that is all they ever do. They have done that for decades and it is only getting worse. I agree. But I will also say that responding in kind is not gonna bring them to think wmore logically. We are frightfully close to real civil war... MUCH closer than I thought I would ever see in my lifetime.
It is possible, although very challenging, to speak in a civil way to people who have ideas that I think are completely preposterous. I am not proposing we avoid pointing out preposterous rhetoric... only that we do it with a little less heat. I realize it is very discouraging to discover there are 74 million people that think Trump is really swell... But, these folks are not going to just quietly go away after January 20th.
Hi Greg,
Our country has gone back and forth between progressive and conservative leaders since its inception. Joe Biden is just about as close to a centrist as you can get and still be on the progressive side of the scale.
You prefer conservative governance, I prefer progressive governance. Vilifying each other is not gonna produce a good outcome for either side. COMPROMISE is what has made our country strong and successful over the years. If we abandon our willingness to compromise, we are cutting of our noses to spite our faces.
Hi, Mal. It has been a long time.
I joined the Vine in Gosh, I think it was 2007, right after I moved to MO. The reason that I joined was I felt it was a place where ideas could be exchanged without the trolling and disrespect that I had experienced at other internet forums. The level of discourse was astonishingly high as a result of widespread adherence to the Code of Honor. Those were the days!
Anyways, I remember posting an article about compromise and linking it to the long, hot summer in Philadelphia that certain members of the 2nd Continental Congress met and determined the form of the Constitution of the United States of America. If they had not compromised, made some really hard thought and fought decisions, we wouldn't be having this discussion today because the CotUS would not have been written.
Put that in your brain box and ponder for a bit. If the founders of our nation had not compromised, not gave a little here to get a little there, even on issues that they held to be of utmost import, we wouldn't have the nation as we know it to lose. So one would think that the people of today who rever the CotUS would be a little more understanding or at least tolerant of different viewpoints.
A hint to my former online identity, I used to sign my posts With my initials: B.S.
A compromise guarantees that each side is not all that happy with the solution. And that's a good thing
Alright Martha. Haha
It is!!! Indeed it is!!! I am just choosing to leave my pitchfork at home.
The possible reality of progressives being in charge of everything is not in the best interest for the future of our country.
I don't believe total control by progressives or conservatives is best for the country. This country is built from diverse ideologies... COMPROMISE is what has made this country successful.
Hmmm... I just realized I am repeating myself... almost word for word... Oh well... At least I'm consistent... :o}
I wish I could like that comment a thousand times, good government requires compromise.
My memory is not what it used to be, Thomas. But Perrie helped me... I do remember you from the Vine. Those WERE the days! :o)
Oh, Mal, that is perfectly fine. I have forgotten more than I now know.
That said, I do know how to find out what I need to know much more quickly now, and I have contacts all over the place who can find out what I can't. Getting older sucks in so many ways, but the people you meet, the friends you acquire along the way, and the experiences that are shared with others make up for that... in spades.
I have a niece (she was my favorite, we were besties and relied on each other especially after my husband passed away she was there for me) who bought into the Q bullshit.
I don't talk to her anymore due to the fact that she lied to me and still doesn't think she did anything wrong (but that's a different matter which I won't go into).
Anyways, this is just a sample of the shit she has posted on FB since she "went down the rabbit hole." This is from back in September.
This is the crazy we are up against.
I have some cousins who are all in on Qanon. It's hard to watch the crazy unfold.
I'm guessing that you are more intelligent than they are. Talk to them. Use reason and bring them home.
They don't want to listen. They're having too much fun hating liberals and progressives.
Talk to them. Use reason and bring them home.
I've tried... To be perfectly honest, I don't have the stamina to stick with it long enough for "reason" to have any effect. People believe what they WANT to believe... that applies to you and I as well. The only hope is for him to see the error of his reasoning on his own.
My nephew has had a very difficult life. I think he is finding some kind of comfort in these wacky ideas... they assuage his grievances.
Sounds like all too many of the conservatives here...
Exactly. These cousins are, for the most part, how should I put it - the less productive members of the family. They're the ones who have had trouble holding down a job, or keeping their families together, or staying off of drugs or excess alcohol. They are angry at the world, and looking for somebody to blame for their problems. If they can also feel like vicarious heroes (I mean, who can insult a movement that has hijacked the hashtag "#SaveOurChildren", which is how QAnon spins its conspiracy theory) for helping to spread "the truth", so much the better, as far as they're concerned. This mix of aggrieved gullibility and secondhand righteousness serves to inoculate them against the truth.
You can spend hours producing links to facts proving them wrong, and links to how the fake movement that spawned Pizzagate is actually making it harder to investigate and prosecute real child molesters, and all you get in return is comments in all caps and insults for being a "libtard". It's wasted effort. And since they're people I can very easily avoid (I only see them at family reunions, if then), they aren't worth the time and effort of arguing with.
You've noticed that too, huh?
Yep. How does one even try to talk to or defend against crap like that.
Unreal.
A few months back I attended a small party, while there I talked with my nephew about this. Later that evening he must have talked to her since she did tone it down on FB but it only lasted so long then she was back at it. FB due to her repeated erroneous posts and her slap fight with someone suspended her account for 2 months. She can now post and so far has not posted any Q bullshit.
Her and I didn't speak a word to each other the whole party, only when I was leaving did she come up to hug me and say goodbye. She did move about 2 hours away due to her boyfriend's job so unless there's a family gathering I will probably never see her.
I will probably never see her.
That is kinda sad... unfortunately, my contact with my nephew is also likely to be extremely limited going forward. :o(
None of that makes any sense to me. Please tell me I'm not alone
That is why we call it Crazy
Wow ! If she's truly not sleeping, that would contribute to these extreme delusions. So sorry for you to see your niece's mental breakdown.
The time frame given, is the past 12 years and I do not believe things have significantly changed. Social media has shown us what was already there, if we had only removed the blinders. The civil war was preceded by senators physically assaulting each other in the senate chambers, congressmen fighting each other and a nation gleefully egging in on. We only have hot air at this point. As for the public... aside from significant virtue signalling, not much else, imo.
I agree. It just gives people a place to say things they normally wouldn't say to someone's face.
And that is good as we all can use an 'outlet.'
Everything I've ever said to someone online is something I would gladly say to his/her/their face.
That is how I roll too. If I wouldn’t say it to your face I don’t feel the need to say it while hiding behind a keyboard. IMO the ones who spew the most ignorant comments to others would be the first to run away peeing themselves if they had to actually face that person.
Same here.
I am basically the same as I am here. Good, bad, beauty marks.
I only get a little bit miffed because people cannot truly grasp how dashingly good looking I am.
Even though I may need readers to look closely in a mirror and sometimes I don't recognize the face looking back, I just want everyone to know rumours of my hideousness are complete lies. It is all fake news.
We DO all need outlets... But there is something about talking to someone face to face that cannot be replicated online... We are more connected to our mutual humanity and empathy for others when we look them in the eye.
We also miss seeing 'the wheels turning' when online. We've all been in face to face discussions when that silent moment happens, when you know the other person actually HEARD you and is thinking about what you said. Many times that is when the breakthrough happens, the 'I never thought of it that way' moment. It may not lead to an agreement but it more than likely leads to mutual respect.
That comment is hilarious coming from those such as yourself. Tell me how many times you have disagreed with someone and said "you never thought of it that way" in the end? If history of comments is an indicator, Ima guess zilch.
Where did I say anything about 'disagreeing with someone' Jim?
Since you pretend to know the history of my comments, you should acknowledge that MOST of the 'disagreements' I have here are based on other members refusal to acknowledge facts AFTER I have furnished them. You have had sufficient experience with that to know it to be true.
In the REAL WORLD, I have friends on 'both sides' of the isle. Unlike here, NONE of them lean on cognitive dissonance when expressing their views. They confront facts that are contrary to their posits and either alter their position or man up and admit that the choose to stand their ground despite the facts. They NEVER demand that 'alternate facts' be accepted. Unlike here, the Nuh-uh reply isn't tolerated or applauded.
As to my recognizing that I had never thought of an issue 'that way', over my lifetime, many times. In particular, I have a very conservative friend, a retired Navy intel dude, who, over many meals and bottles of wine, has managed to get me to recognize perspectives that I never would have thought of without him. I can't count how many times I have thanked him for it. When he ran for Congress, he asked me to review and edit his policy platform documents and website.
Doesn't quite fit your posit, does it Jim?
Where did I say anything about 'disagreeing with someone' Jim?
Right there..........................
As for the rest of your "response", you may be that way in person (and probably for good reason like maintaining your teeth) but certainly, it doesn't seem like that daily, here. Your MO is to nit pick, choose and/or parse words and telling someone what they think, and pretty much arguing for the sake of argument. I know you have your opinions and offer up what you envision as proof but also don't return the favor when someone gives it to you. I am sorry but you appear to have a closed mind for anyone paying attention. The above MO takes over. You cannot stand to be wrong and when you are, you use your methods or disappear for a couple of days and return to days old seeds when you think no one is looking, to argue some more when the horse has already left the barn.
Sorry but many members and "visitors" can read it............every day.
You have a great day now and keep that chin up. The snow won't stay forever.
Weak sauce Jim.
Now THAT'S hilarious Jim.
First of all, I'm 'that way' here too. You and yours have had ample opportunity to that the 'teeth' out of my arguments yet have, for the most part, failed miserably.
That's your opinion Jim. All you or your fellow travelers need do is refute my posits. Again, for the most part, you fail or even worse, disappear from the discussion or lock seeds.
Either it's proof or it isn't Jim. Post a fucking argument to refute it.
Return WHAT favor Jim? Citing facts has it's own value.
Is it your posit that I should applaud each and every link that a member posts in support of their position? I've never seen you do so. Different standard?
I know for a fact that you do NOT speak for anyone paying attention here Jim. Again, post an argument that changes my mind and I'm more than willing to acknowledge it.
In fact, I invite you to cite an argument that YOU have made that should have done so. PM me with a link and if it fits the bill, I'll acknowledge it here...
Now you're just blathering personal bullshit Jim. Again, PM me with an example. The reason I ask you to take your PERSONAL opinions about my motivations there is that it derails this seed.
Wow, you must be having some far reaching communication with members and 'visitors' about me Jim.
You must be under the delusion that your comment has had a negative effect on my self esteem. Rest assured that your comment has had no depilatory effect whatsoever.
Just a dusting here, no worries.
Not only his.
I don't mind that he spoke for some of us.
Well that's interesting since you were one of the members that voted up my 10.1.7 comment.
You might be interested in the example that Jim sent me of my 'transgressions'. You should ask him to PM it to you.
Hi Mal. Just getting 'down' here. I agree. Although some people can be quite the 'haul' in person too. Actually, I am the same online and off. I smile in my comments as often as I smile behind my facial masks in public! Also, I look askance at folks in public, the way I stare down BS online! And I dismiss liars, cheaters, and thieves from "friending" online and privately. I am more or less: What You See Is What You Get.
Social Media is a decent outlet, after all (and this is going to make you feel good all over) - I just got introduced to you! Now how would that happen any other place but right here?
The trick is to get/strive for something more, something positive, from the day to day 'grind' in public. That is, I think my reality and virtual reality friends should not get away with BS and frustrating me (and vice-versa). Nor should anybody be permitted to give me "brain damage" online or off!
That being said - I am sitting here thinking. . . how due to my years-long celibacy, most of my male heterosexual friends off-line don't know how disturbingly interesting I would find them were I sexually active!
Oh, life, and its many splendid dynamics. . . .
Exactly. And on occasion I discern a 'break' in the theatrics coming from an individual commentor online too! That is when I modulate my own online behavior. Why destroy a positive effect that I am having on someone? I don't wish to do that! I want the opening possibility to make a reasonable friend!
At some point, it became clear to me that just "chatting it up" with my virtual friends was lacking something substantive, after all, lies, obfuscations, misinformation, time online, and truth were all swirling around me haphazardly. And it just came to me (as things do) that, somebody has got to clean this mess up!
So I put on my 'duty vest,' got my mop, bucket, scrub brushes. . . and off I set into the void of social media wiping away!
So... now I can't agree with one comment even when I don't agree with another?
I do that with those I don't argue with too. There's plenty of things people post that I don't agree with that my "friends" here post.
I don't care about conversations that happened between you two on another article. I don't bring other commentary into my conversations. If I'm having a conversation with someone I'm addressing that person on that specific comment and that's it.
You've nit picked things I've said several times. That's why I made that comment to begin with and if you think that you haven't please go back to your commentary aimed at me and let me know what you find.
Trust me when I say that I don't necessarily always agree with Jim either. But I don't nit pick everything someone says just because I may not agree with their opinion or thought. I also will call out friends for not following rules on my articles... I did so with Jim before... just ask him.
This is in regards to this tread.
It is getting very personal and I am going to lock it before it gets any worse. Anyone continuing on somewhere else on this article will get a 4 point ticket.
Majority Leader McConnell is signaling a return to normalcy. After all, he has a brand spanking new 6 year term. I don't think he wants to wreck its infancy with a new civil war!
His congratulations were disingenuous. He was just sucking up to the new bosses.
Thank Yew BC !
Very true.
Before these knuckle draggers consider starting a second civil war, they should remember the old saying...He who does not remember the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them.
The corporate system of selling BS has invaded every aspect of life. So people are so willing to take the path of least resistance and adopt any line of BS that corresponds to any idea they have which exists in their minds, taking them to the worst possible conspiracy lunacy conclusions. Facebook has fed this, along with all forms of media. Adopting opinions and fomenting opinions over reality. We really need to take up a rating system on all forms of "news" the way we took up a rating system for movies. Actual news must be vetted and labeled as "news", Opinion based programs which spew the opinions of any talking head on the right or on the left should be labeled as such, OBP or Opinion Based Program. There are a variety of rating systems that could be implemented without infringing on the rights of people to follow those opinions but they need to be made aware of their folly in adopting someone else's opinion as reality. They are all led to believe in these opinions and conspiracies, then attack anyone who tells them otherwise or presents an alternate opinion because their minds have been ingrained across the media spectrum to believe in so much nonsense. Another aspect of this is the corporate fed "team" mentality that encourages people to stick with the "team" in a blind allegiance to the team as a way of life. Whether it is to fool them into adopting the false message of loyalty to the Corporation as a "team", or the ingrained process in society of following sports teams to the point of being fanatical. Loyalty to the "team" overtakes all rational thought so when someone from the "other team" tries to to talk about other ideas that don't fall into the "team think" message lefties get attacked as "libtards" and righties get attacked as "dumb". We are not "teams" we are people and there is a lot of work to do to break the cycle of messaging all around.
It is gonna be very difficult, if not impossible, to put that genie back in the bottle.
Whether we call it news or OBP, people believe what they WANT to believe... Quite commonly, facts do not figure into the equation.
For emphasis. No matter how irrational or unsupported the belief, there are those who hold it.
Seems like another pandemic to me, mass delusion.