Would You Trade A Path To Citizenship For Law Abiding Illegal Immigrants For A Border Wall , And Vice Versa ?

This is the intended compromise, I believe.   I have heard pundits say the political right will subvert the deal. 

"Law abiding illegal immigrant" is a contradiction. And no, I wouldn't take that deal because it covers too many illegals, doesn't cut back chain migration or end the diversity lottery.

Ok, let's say they reach some sort of compromise on the chain migration and diversity lottery and add that compromise to the bill. Then what will you do? 

We are not going to deport 11 or 12 million people.  This is the time to make arrangements for all of them to become permanent residents. The "wall" will keep future numbers down. 

I don't think there will be a wall without some provision made for law abiding people to be able to stay here with their families. 

It's all a moot point since Schumer has already decided to withdraw wall support anyway. I don't see any DACA deal coming unless a miracle happens.

I said if they had no criminal record unrelated to immigration. 

What is your compromise offering on immigration? 

We don't need a Wall we need two chain link fences 100' apart with a mine field between them. Plus we need to crack down on Illegal labor with big fines and jail time and a third strike penalty of 20 years in prison for those who employ illegals.

"Dreamers" is the devil in the detail. We use that word to describe the 3 million who have overstayed their refugee status from Haiti and other countries which had people come here seeking temporary relief. The DACA question only involves less than 1 million and is the one I believe John Russell is referring to.

The answer to his question is NO.

The deal is really a 4 pillar agreement. It is DACA becoming the exception to immigration law - in exchange for - 1) Border Wall Funding, 2) An end to "Chain Migration" and 3) An end to the "Diversity Visa Lottery".  A very simple EASY agreement. Who, other than progressives, would be against border security?

We are not going to deport 11 or 12 million people.

Just think about this. Just for the heck of it. 

If 11 to 12 million people were all of a sudden shipped back to their country of origin, how border security would change from the other side.

I'd Bet that "Border Security" would become an instant two sided affair, instead of a one sided affair after that happened. 

The interesting thing (to me) is that DACA was never legal, nothing more than an executive order tossed out - that once implemented could never be gotten rid of!  Our courts and judges have even made ruling (yet another thing that makes NO sense) against Trumps rescinding of the executive order 

I am all for the 800 thousand'ish "Dreamers" that have registered for the program, having a path to being a permanent member of the United States - but not their parents and extended families - yeah I know, "we would be breaking families up" etc -- yet that is something that is done daily in the courts across the nation.. so I do not see what the difference is between breaking up legal citizens families and the families of illegals.  (perhaps someone has a logical answer to explain the difference?)

Stay warm : )

John - that law is already here - it's called the Immigration and Nationality Act along with it's brother/sister, Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act of 1996.

Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996,  uscis

FYI -

The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRAIRA) represents an effort by Congress to strengthen and streamline U.S. immigration laws. The Act was designed to improve border control by imposing criminal penalties for racketeering, alien smuggling and the use or creation of fraudulent immigration-related documents and increasing interior enforcement by agencies charged with monitoring visa applications and visa abusers.

Employment eligibility verification guidelines are also incorporated into the Act, including sanctions for employers who fail to comply with the regulations and restrictions on unfair immigration-related employment practices , as well as provisions governing the dispersement of government aid to aliens.

Unfortunately, Congress (both sides of the aisle) has not had the tenacity to enforce the NIA law since the Reagan era nor the IIRIRA since Dubya.

DACA is not a law.  Jeh Johnson, previous Homeland Security Chief, drafted DACA, passed up to Obama who thought it was a great deal and proceeded to sign off on it as an  executive action rather than legislation.  As an executive action, the next president - or, even Obama himself - can/could have tore up the paperwork and burned it and no one could say/do anything about it - not even the courts - because it was policy - period - not law - period.

Don't remember seeing any court battles in the 50's when the Mexican government asked the U. S. to help stem/stop the flow of ILLEGAL ALIENS into the U. S. - definitely not like today when everyone gets their nose out of shape and sues.

I'd Bet that "Border Security" would become an instant two sided affair,

That's not a bad thought. Maybe if we threaten to dump 12 million people in Mexico, they'd be willing to pay for a wall to avoid it.

It was just a thought. 

Would work though. The other countries are so jittery since Trump. 

you have to replace the working middle class voters you have fucked over for the last 20 years somehow.

That is exactly what they are doing - importing voters to counter American citizens. They aren't up front about it, but everyone knows its going on.

Republicans Subvert it?

Really?

With Shumer on the back peddling already?

None of it makes sense .,, the political machine is pushing for illegals over Americans... I don’t care who you are or what side you’re on but this is out of control.  They try to redefine Illegal being legal... it’s crazy.  What’s the constitution? What are laws? What is the price that Americans have to pay for someone who is illegal? It’s a mess, I got a term for it—-assbackwards 

AR

Here is what I would like to see, but I know it would never happen.....................

Chain Migration........GONE!

Lottery System..........GONE!

Build a Wall and add security.

A ONE TIME Chance for a Current Dreamer to be able to apply for Citizenship. Give them an X amount of time to apply, after that if they didnt apply...........Deport. If a Dreamer has a Criminal Background, Felony Conviction or proven Gang Ties etc........Deport. Must be High School Grad or at least a GED. (the time period would give those a chance that would need to get GED). Employed or seeking employment or in further education ie College or a Trade School. Or if been in Military. Honorable Discharge of course.

Few other things I would like included in the bill..............

Illegal to Knowingly HIRE an Illegal with stiff punishment to employer!

NO Government assistance to an Illegal. NONE! That includes Schooling etc etc etc.

A provision that specifies that after a determined date future "Dreamer", someone brought as a minor by parents illegally Would be subject to deportation. PERIOD! NO MATTER WHAT! Make it a specific law.

Not only do we need to fix current problem but provisions to prevent from being in this same problem 10 20 years from now. 

Build a Wall and add security.

I am all for border control, but the wall is an illusion of security. Just ask the Israelis and the Egyptian. No wall is stopping their illegal immigration. And you have a huge gulf coast. Try fencing that in. 

Everyday people from Haiti and Cuba take a far more dangerous journey across the Atlantic. Every day they are stopped. Many get through. When you are desperate enough that is what happens. And what most of you have forgotten, is the whole reason for NAFTA was to make things better in Mexico so they wouldn't come over... it just didn't turn out that way due to the Mexican Gov. 

migrationpolicy

migrationpolicy

Just ask the Israelis and the Egyptian. No wall is stopping their illegal immigration

Actually it has. Everyone agrees the wall has been a huge success and almost eliminated illegal immigration. 

eryday people from Haiti and Cuba take a far more dangerous journey across the Atlantic. Every day they are stopped. Many get through.

So what? Why let the perfect be the enemy of the good? The southern border is  the most popular geographic point of entry for those who enter illegally. Just because every illegal alien cannot be stopped doesn't mean we shouldn't stop as many as we reasonably can. 

That’s the thing... do we stop and throw our hands up in the air.... the envitable it will never be one hundred percent, but we do what we can.  Enforce the law, uphold the constitution, build the wall and get back to making legal instead of illegal.... protect America or live in chaos.

I lived in Del Rio Texas. Once across the river it was wide open country. If you could out run and out hide the patrols you made it. Unless of course the they got screwed up and ran onto the USAF Base.

ALSO put in place a STIFF E VERIFY! AND NO Government benefits or programs, no schooling, etc etc etc.

Ever notice how a Democrat will not call an Illegal an Illegal? Starts right there!

Supports the Dem Voter base.............

A friend of mine was the NCOIC of the command post there at Laughlin, he'd go out the back door for a smike and watch the illegals crossing the river.  That was in 1980.  Nothing much has changed.

Just ask the Israelis and the Egyptian. No wall is stopping their illegal immigration.

Actually it's working spectacularly well. 

Border fence in Israel cut illegal immigration by 99 percent, GOP senator says

The report notes that the number of people illegally crossing the Israel-Egypt border was more than 16,000 in 2011 and less than 20 in 2016, a 99 percent decrease.

I got there in 81

OK so obviously no one gets why the wall was put up. 

They never had illegal immigration. There was a checkpoint where people were cleared to go to work in Israel. When violence broke out in Israel, they built the wall. Since then, there have been continuous tunnels built both to Israel and Egypt. So I am not sure where the GOP is getting their info.. but the worst of the worst are getting through and those with money who want to get the hell out of Gaza. 

The wall has become symbolic now. Trump wants it (even if for only a mile) to fulfill his key campaign promise. Democrats oppose it (even if only for a mile) to resist Trump's most memorable pledge.

The problem has always been both political parties were willing to look the other way on protecting the southern border for a long time. Democrats now have become entrenched on having the border wide open, as they have gleefully observed border states go from deep red to purple or even deep blue. Politicians cant be trusted with immigration reform. We have a populist non-politician in the White House. I know he can withstand a world of heat (I've seen it this past year) and he will get it done.

I would trade path for citizenship for dreamers, legalization for illegals here prior to 2014 (after border secure)  in exchange for border barrier, end of chain migration, e-verify  and legal immigration numbers based on skills, no lottery

Only trade I would make is end all immigration for minimum of 10 years  

What's the old saying about the horse has already left the barn?

The fact that 1/3 of western USA was Mexican territory as late as 1848 not withstanding, we invited the Mexicans (back) into our country in 1942 to work the fields and take the places of Americans who entered the Armed Forces - we also accepted Mexicans into the Armed Forces.

Opportunity or Exploitation: The Bracero Program
The Bracero program (1942 through 1964) allowed Mexican nationals to take temporary agricultural work in the United States. Over the program’s 22-year life, more than 4.5 million Mexican nationals were legally contracted for work in the United States (some individuals returned several times on different contracts). Mexican peasants, desperate for cash work, were willing to take jobs at wages scorned by most Americans.

By the time the program stopped in 1965, our agricultural industry was addicted to cheap labor and the labor was simply staying in the USA all year long - having children who were now US citizens.

The seeds of chain migration are deep, it's not a new problem, just one that Congress has never been able to deal with.

americanhistory.si

I am presently working on Irish citizenship via Grandparents birth. It is a rather involved process requiring records going back over 100 years in my particular case and the onus is on me to produce the required information.

It is cumbersome, frustrating at times and costly, but it is their Country, their laws and if I care to reach my ultimate goal I must follow their process, which I fully understand and abide by.

That is to say that most Countries have a procedure for immigration, good bad or indifferent and they expect them to be followed. Why is it so horrific that we would ask the same?

My question for the day.

In exchange for the funding for a border wall across the applicable sections of the southern border, the 'Dreamers' are allowed to pursue a path to citizenship in the US, as is any illegal immigrant who does not have a (non- immigration related) criminal record in the US. 

The whole problem with the "dreamer" is that they are already breaking US law.  Making the "path to citizenship" (that already exists BTW) easier is asinine.  Thousands have come across the US border the right way.  They can do it to.

If funding for the wall is an issue, that is a simpler fix than many think.  Every year the US doles out cash and other aid to other countries.  Many of which offer nothing in return aside from problems.  Cut the aid to those countries and we'll have a big jump in the funding.  Also with the church wanting to insert itself into US politics, remove their tax exempt status and there is another big chunk of the funding resolved.

The Democrats would agree, the rabid Republican right will kill any deal. DACA will end, the wall will languish, some will be deported, some will continue to stay illegally, the problem will remain. America's image will decline, and we will find millions of jobs open and unfilled, because Americans won't take back-breaking jobs with no benefits. The mess will continue until Democrats take back the government. Sad, but true.

The mess has continued with Democrat controlled government and republicn controlled government, to say nothing will happen unitl we have a democrat controlled government misses the obvious question, why is it still a problem if the democrats are the ones needed to fix it?

People who have been here for five years or so and have a job or have had a job and are now looking for work should be allowed to stay. Such people clearly believe the US to be their country now, and as long as they are not criminals they have such a right. That is the American way. The idea that the US cannot absorb 11 or 12 million people is nonsense. In fact, we already have. 

Poll after poll finds that a majority of Americans think that even illegal immigrants should have the opportunity to stay in the United States—68 percent in a recent Quinnipiac poll say they should be able to apply for citizenship.

Unsurprisingly, Trump and the Republicans face the same political headwinds in the debate over DACA reform. Seventy-nine percent  think the “Dreamers”—undocumented immigrants brought to the United States as children—should be allowed to stay and become citizens.    newsweek

We have to start doing what the majority wants in regard to this and the majority wants these 11 million people to be left alone as long as they are law abiding. 

I wouldn’t make any deal because a deal with democrats on this issue is a Devil’s bargain. The DACA illegals should have been deported 20 years ago. Instead of using the time that they evaded the law to prepare for possible deportation or applying for legal status, they simply sat around like they’re not illegal and now have the gall to get indignant that anybody would consider kicking them out. 

Democrats have made it perfectly clear that they will do everything in their power to frustrate immigration law, ensuring that we’ll be right back where we started ten years from now with a new batch of illegals claiming that they should get amnesty for the same reason we gave it to the prior group. This needs to end so end it now.

If there has to be a Devil’s bargain, then I would want the congress to specifically authorize the president to defund sanctuary cities. Also, I’d want at least a 3 for 1 deal where a DACA illegal would be given amnesty only after at least three other illegals in sanctuary cities are deported. 

This was the deal in the 80s: A secure border in exchange for amnesty. Amnesty was granted and Congress refused to secure the border. Now we have quadruple the illegal aliens that we did back then. Even worse, Democrats have the nerve to say that it's Republicans who can't be trusted to fulfill a promise to help these people. That's why I want money to be actually appropriated for a wall as part of any deal to cut any illegal aliens a break.

Democrats Pandering for votes...................

Oh come on... if that was the case, then why did Reagan do it?

If the republicans were smart, they could have made this their agenda, and made these "Dreamers" grateful to them. That was not the case. Reagan understood the issues far better back then, than people understand it now.

Reagan granted Amnesty under the Premise he was also to get money for a Tighter Boarder and an E Verify type system in place.

Once he signed off on the Amnesty he was stabbed in the back on the things he wanted.

Now are you going to tell me that if something passes on DACA the Democrats are not going to take the credit? Listen to them now.

4 presidents have tried immigration control since then, although Reagan's was the best. He was not stabbed in the back.. there was no particular move forward in the e validation, which has been hung up in congress whether a Republican president or Democrat president. 

Read this article:

pbs

The finger pointing can go both ways for why were are where we are today. I have no dog in this fight other than to follow through on a promise made. I saw how messed up it is first hand, when the rules change mid way.

Provide full funding now for the wall (in whatever fashion it takes), and then we can discuss allowing the REGISTERED DACA participants a means to stay here.

See how things go... remember when the Mexicans were going to pay for that wall? Everyone makes promises they can't keep. 

I am for a border wall, but I say this with all sincerity, it will not stop them from coming into the country. They will go under the wall, and across the gulf.

But O'Neal did in fact, promise to work to secure the border.  The Republicans are still waiting for that promise to be fulfilled.

And who held up Bill Clinton when he tried to build that wall?

The reason why nothing gets done properly is because partisan politics always rules the day. 

I agree 00Fish. 

It is not the best system by any stretch of the imagination,

It has never been made a Federal requirement in all states for all employments.  Congress has failed in that regard as PH implied.

In the states where it is in use it is mostly tied to State contracts, thus if Costco supplies anything to any State institution, they are required to E-Verify.

These sites shows states with E-Verify or pending legislation. No real surprise here.

formi9

trackercorp    (better info, shows states where all employees are required)

interesting timing...

finance.yahoo

just being the devils advocate here....

What happens to the rescued kids who can't prove their citizenship?  Deport them back to the same environment that landed them here?  

Does give pause for thought.

Schumer is already Back Peddling on the wall promise.............

As of today, that is. 

So democrats like dreamers, or do they like having dreamers as a wedge issue? 

That's an extremely fair, middle of the road comprimise offer from Trump.