What Was God's Plan For 43 Poor People Who Died In Factory Fire In India ?
43 people died when fire broke out in a crowded paper products factory in Delhi, India. Most of the 43 were sleeping laborers. The blaze erupted at 5:30 a.m.
According to the New York Times
The building in the Anaj Mandi neighborhood of northeastern New Delhi was packed with sleeping laborers when the fire broke out. Most of the victims were Muslim migrant workers from impoverished Bihar State in eastern India, The Associated Press reported. They earned as little as 150 rupees (about $2.10) per day making handbags, caps and other garments, it said.
Investigators blamed an electrical short-circuit for the fire, The A.P. reported. Safety standards are poorly enforced in India and are linked to many deaths.
Kishore Kumar, an official at Lok Nayak Hospital, where victims were taken, said most of the dead appeared to have suffocated as they slept. He said at least 20 other people were being treated for injuries.
''Their only fault was they were poor,'' a man named Babar Ali, 32, told the AP. ''Why else would someone work and sleep in such a congested place?'' Mr. Ali, who used to work in the same building, called the workers' difficult lives ''a bigger tragedy than their death.''
In Anaj Mandi, residents climbed to the roofs of their buildings to watch the tragedy unfold as rescuers struggled to evacuate the injured. It took firefighters nearly an hour to control the fire because only one vehicle could reach the building.
Their Only Fault Was They Were Poor': Fire Kills 43 in New Delhi.
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I think it was the very rich Kanye West who recently said something about being saved by Jesus Christ.
Kanye West Kanye West , during his most recent Sunday service held in an Atlanta, Ga., megachurch, testified about how Jesus Christ saved him. Regular attendees at New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, where Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant pastors, were treated Sunday morning to a 10-minute sermon by the hip-hop artist, FOX 5 reported.
believersportal.com/kanye-wests-born-again-testimony/
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What does Kanye have to do with a fire in India?
What were their options to pray to? Buda or a Priest that promises to look after the children?
Brilliant !
Prayer is useless - all the prayer in the world wouldn't have kept these people alive.
Actions could have. Actions by humans - no gods necessary.
There are actual studies that have proven that. There is absolutely no evidence that wishful thinking makes anything happen. There is, however, evidence to show that it does NOT have any effect.
Prayer can provide self-comfort, just as meditation, yoga, and similar things can do. So it can be beneficial for people to pray even though it doesn't change anything. But it's absolutely useless when it comes to actual actions.
Typically, when we hear of prayers "being answered," we think of a tangible action being accomplished. Of course, no one has ever been able to prove that. They merely make claims of an action occurring or at best, try to make a correlation between prayer and some fortuitous event. Ultimately, it comes down to emotional comfort. That's the only real "effect," other than your stated physiological responses, that prayer has.
Some people don't understand the backlash against "thoughts and prayers" - it's not that I have an issue if someone wants to pray. If it makes them feel better, why not? But in many cases, people pray instead of taking a tangible action to help a situation. What would they think if I told them I'd cast a spell for their loved one?
Not really. it gives people hope.
Agree totally. I don't believe in "gods" or creators.
You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm going to defend God
Agreed. I was talking in terms of making tangible actions happen.
"She's a witch! Burn her!"
I believe i've been away from this sight unseen due to answered prayers of those who "think" they are right
or
i've been busy with some more important potentially life altering or ending circumstances for one who i attempt to guide, without a rutter, a flap, a steering wheel, or stick of joy to the world
but like Heaven right here on Earth, life sure is Hell,, or was it swell, same thing
Katrix was very clear in explaining that prayer is useful for personal comfort, but otherwise useless for anything tangible outside that.
Her words (for further clarity): "I was talking in terms of making tangible actions happen."
No, she didn't. She clearly explained herself. If you don't understand that, then I can't you.
You seem to overlook the parameters she established. So clearly you do not understand what she said or the context!
Is this not despicable? Cherry-picking from katrix' quote by leaving off 'when it comes to actual actions' so as to change the meaning of her words.
Intellectual dishonesty. If one cannot make an honest argument it is best to remain silent.
You omitted the operative part of her comment: "... when it comes to actual actions". That is intellectual dishonesty. You owe katrix an apology.
At its finest.
And then accuses others of "overlooking" or contradicting themselves, when he himself does just that. Such tactics is quite obvious for all to see. I see it, you see it, and I wager most anybody else here will see it too. I'd like to see Katrix weigh in on this too.
Blatant too and here he is doubling down on it.
Tell me about it. And I doubt he even gets it yet.
I am sure he (and everyone else reading this) knows that he is ignoring part of katrix' quote to change her meaning.
Was it REALLY the most "Operative" ?
Or
Is that just really an "opinion" by a Friend !
By the way....what IS "Intellectual" Dishonesty...or for that matter "Intellectual" Honesty mean .... and who is "Intellectual" enough to "USE" those words as the mean to an end on NT?
You ?
Gordy ?
You're free to be wrong and anyone else will see that too, including your omissions of what Katrix actually said.
Once again, you ignore what she actually said, her established parameters of what is said, and even omit certain parts of what she said. A logical, thinking person would not do that. They would examine the entirety and context of what is being said. TiG certainly understood it. Why can't you?
I offered no opinion. Only fact. Which seems to be above your head.
Actually, it is ME, whose opinion i can't respect, as i have poor insecurity, and can't trust ME to be honest about interpretations i wrongly write till rightly wrong, is Me, myself, and eye reamed a whole lot out of double speak in half the time i got paid in tie and a half the other, in a labor of love, as it's my third and final mester, to try to get throught to you and
but Us both bean blind and led by a string, you still grab the cup, till it runnith over you like a speed bump for bowling shoes that you model in your spare time looking quite striking...know?
didn't think so what mot my turn for me
Nice Strawman. Proof of god has nothing to do with this current line of discussion.
Challenging claims and notions regarding god or the bible, especially when there's logical inconsistencies, sis not arguing. It's pointing out flaws in what's presented or in the thinking of those who present it.
We don't ask for proof, although that would be nice. Proof is too high a standard. Simple objective, empirical evidence will suffice, which is the acceptable form of evidence/proof utilized by science or the scientific minded in general. Of course, no one actually ever produces any form of actual evidence. Only mere belief, which is evidence of nothing except what one believes.
They're (Their
) "Flavored' go-too !
But....and I'm only speaking in "Layman" terms so You'll understand (I nor you are smart enough to know any different
)
....They're self proclaimed ….. "Intellectuals" …… after all.
"I am old enough to remember when America’s colleges and universities seemed to be the most open-minded and intellectually rigorous institutions in our society. Today, something very much like the opposite is true: America’s colleges and universities have become, and have been for some decades, the most closed-minded and intellectually dishonest institutions in our society."
The cliche line that you apply even when it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
You just got busted on intellectual dishonesty and here you are trying to put up a smoke screen of victim-hood.
If your objective is to illustrate intellect then make an honest argument. Intellectually dishonest claims (repeated even) followed by smoke screens is counterproductive to that end.
Here, TiG wrote an excellent article about it.
Point out where we ever made such claims!
I would say it wouldn't matter since leaving it off as Texan1211 did was to prove his/her point by misleading others as to what katrix actually was saying. That is definitely being dishonest and definitely not the way to have a discussion.
Which works out perfectly. Your comments will still be rebutted (where needed) and there will be no pointless smoke-screen responses.
Texan did…..You....as an "Intellectual"....didn't except it....as it didn't fit YOUR "Intellectual" thought process!
A "Great" Intellectual, doesn't speak down to someone !
it's the only way he knows
discussions become disgustings, he seldom is capable of comprehending, as i've disgust with him B 4, as it was like only 3:37
More like you can't refute a point when a challenge is made, or you continue to make the same mistake. So it's easier to run away and hide while playing a victim.
Is that what you're "speaking up" about ?
Did Texan "Really" do that ?
Or
Was that your perception.....Opinion ?
As a person who uses spells to self soothe I can honestly say some people get freaked out by it. Then they tell me I am just praying. I don't argue, just let them think what they will.
As far as the "thoughts and prayers" issue, I will be honest and say to people "my thoughts are with you" and then I tell them if there is anything I can do to help them in any way to let me know. When people say it to me I simply say thank you.
Was I too Loud ?
Thank you Veronica. You see it, I see it, TiG sees it, and even ignorantz sees sit. Anyone else?
Hey i'm hungry too, so you don't mind if i meet you two, as you are both already out to lunch...
can you order me a stuffed mushroom appetizer ?
That was my perception. When you leave off part of a quote to make it look like someone stated something they didn't - it is being dishonest. But your perception may be different. If you believe misquoting someone to prove your point is being honest then I have to wonder about your integrity.
We could do a "Beer Summit" !
You may be fun to be with.
I Know I'm a Blast.
hey, what precisely do you approximately mean on average, when even "ignorantz" sees it, as
i really don't see either of them seeing it. But, ignorance ruling so many of the flock, is like German Sheppards Pie, for out to lunch i go................
to meat them att the vegan restaurant , as out too lunch they B
C 4
did i sink your battleship ? or your air Carrier air craftted HVAC unit with a missile on a demolitionmission accomplished, as U no i'm a big fan
There's a big amount of Dishonest folks on NT then, if that's what bothers you !
I didn't see an actual "As Quoted by" listed in Texans statement....did you ?
Is your "Perception" better than Texans "Perception" ?
You seem to recognize that Texan is not being intellectually honest. If I am mistaken on that assessment, then my apologies.
i'm only aloud
10 tons worth.
...….to ?
I'll wait.
You might find, i recognize a tad more to be honest, as intellectually, i'm on occasion capabull shipping people right out of their minds, as i'm know Captain with a hung ToeNeil,
but i due recognize muskrat love on the Love boat/ship of Fools that America has set on a fire sale that catches all that blow US A way
To "Layman" It Is Me….Not at all.
Let's do an "Intellectual" STUDY about this....shall we.
Nothing was "left off" !
I know...and I was there (you should, as an intellectual, already have known that
).....and you were "Dishonest" in your Reponses, as you came up with anything and everything you could muster up to ignore my question I kept asking.
Your go to was....."That's just "Loaded" …. and went off on some other "Intellectual" speaking thingy.
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Then "Buck Up" !
Life has always been hard.
Tripling down on the intellectual dishonesty?
Katrix stated that prayer was useless to save the people. She stated that their lives could only be saved by action, not by mere prayer.
In her next quote she notes that there are uses for prayer but, again, that prayer is useless when it comes to actions.
You cherry-pick only ‘prayer is useless’ and then spin her meaning. A cheap, simplistic tactic of intellectual dishonesty.
Worse, when caught, you just triple down on the dishonesty.
Then why did you ask "what IS "Intellectual" Dishonesty...or for that matter "Intellectual" Honesty mean .... and who is "Intellectual" enough to "USE" those words as the mean to an end on NT?"
Did you not understand what TiG was saying in his article?
I never claimed to be an intellectual. But thank you for the compliment.
Not even a little.
As I pointed out repeatedly, your question was loaded and off topic.
Now you're imagining things.
Oh how droll, and comical at the same time.
Perhaps a quadrupling down might be forthcoming?
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Who....ME think that ?
"Trolling" is such an " Escapism " type word....don't you think ?
Pretty Much....along with the "Ignore" the question thingy !
As I stated that was my PERCEPTION of your quoting katrix partially instead of using the whole context of the discussion. Your perception is different. Doesn't make mine wrong - in fact as I said before using partials quotes to prove your point is dishonest IMO.
Yes, dishonesty does bother me & does nothing to further a discussion.
My perception is at least based on his/her whole comments not parts of it, so yes mine is better when it comes to honest discussion. As I said before when you misquote someone to prove your point (or leave out parts of the whole discussion) it is dishonest and does not further genuine discussion.
We will have to disagree on this point.
I have read all of comments in the discussion & it appears you have left out this very important part.
And you are correct, my mind is made up. When someone leaves out a part of the discussion that disproves what they are bitching about I find them to be DISHONEST.
Once again, and not surprisingly, you ignore the contexts in which Kat stated prayer was beneficial and when it's not, even after its been explained to you ad nauseum now.
Too many people have tried to explain it to you. You choose not to grasp the meaning. A fire hose is beneficial when you have a fire, it is useless if you are hungry.
I doubt he/she will ever admit it.
The problem is not the mechanical quoting, it is your interpretation of katrix' words. You interpreted her words by cherry-picking. You omitted parts that changed the entire meaning. That is the intellectually dishonest act.
I am convinced that none of us will ever get Texan to admit his dishonesty. I do not think this could be more blatantly clear yet he continues to pretend as though he can talk his way out of this.
Me thinks you are correct.
Much less get it.
I'm beginning to wonder if it really is a choice, or if he genuinely just doesn't understand?
Me knows he's correct!
but like Heaven right here on Earth, life sure is Hell,, or was it swell, same thing
Yep:
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton, Paradise Lost
There’s your answer.
I guess my question is why did God (Jesus Christ ) save the millionaire Kanye West but did not give a better outcome to these 43 desperately poor people in India?
Did "God" or "Jesus" say, they saved Kanye ?
"Investigators blamed an electrical short-circuit for the fire"
Sounds like just ANOTHER Human Error thingy.
James 1:13
"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."
I don’t know much about Hinduism but it probably has nothing to do with Jesus.
Most of the victims were Muslim not Hindu. This still means Jesus had nothing to do with it (as he is only a prophet to them) but god is still squarely in the sights.
Dear Brother in Spirit and Good Friend John Russell: Great topic.
As ever, you have your thumb on the pulse of what really matters.
The problem of evil, and this would be an example of such is one of the most difficult of all challenges with which theologians and theological philosophers grapple.
Briefly, the sticking point appears to be formulated as follows.
G-d is all powerful.
G-d is all caring.
There is unnecessary evil in the world.
It causes suffering and harm.
Why does not G-d use His powers to eliminate evil from occurring?
Over my more than seven decades I have read and given a fair hearing to people on all sides of the fence on this one.
To date no one set of dance steps wins the Dancing with the Stars award, in my view.
The following are the best ways I have seen.
Not perfect but least worst of available options.
1. Tzimtzum (Contractions) Kabbalah (Zohar). G-d is perfect.
Why not make all in His creation perfect?
Because that would be redundant and pointless.
G-d doesn't do pointless.
Rather G-d contracts himself to allow for spaces of imperfection.
Free will is granted.
Revelation(s) provide guides for the use of free will to perfect (improve) things.
When humans who have the intellectual capacity to choose between right and wrong elect, even at self sacrifice to do right, they and G-d share in the credit.
In the case of the incident in India, the choice to hold manufacturers to high worker safety standards, and to pay them a fair days wage for a fair days work is up to regulators and commerce and industry.
In this case both failed.
Wrong choice.
When our off spring were growing up, I could have done their home work for them.
It would have turned out better, and been done faster.
They also would have learned nothing from my doing it.
If they needed help, I was there for them.
It is better they figure things out for themselves.
That is where the potential for human growth and development reside.
This is a serious position.
However, it does not help when humans suffer from normal acts of nature, like natural disasters.
A good, not perfect theory.
2. "The best of all possible worlds". Read Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, The Monadology.
Pay attention to the concept of "infinite regress".
Of all the ways this world could be, this is the best possible option.
If we can imagine a world that is better, how and why I am not convinced that this theory holds water.
3. Does the world have to be free of evil for us to have sufficient reason to want to live G-d centered lives?
Let's review of our human family relationships for an insight.
As children, did we always act perfectly, and always fulfill the hopes, wishes and desires of our loving parents for us?
As parents, were we flawless in our parenting?
Were there no times when as children and as parents that we let those we love down by our errors?
Is that sufficient reason to never relate to them or them to us again?
Are we looking in the wrong place for reason(s) to live with evil, and remain close to G-d in our lives (assuming we wish to exercise our option to do so)?
Mrs. E. and I have been together from more than half a century.
She had done far better at being my wife than I have at being her husband.
Ours is an imperfect yet rock solid marriage for life.
We work daily at making "us" stronger and closer than the day before.
We do this because we both know we are better off together than apart.
We make this work, because we have a better life for the marriage's success.
Can the same be true for leading a G-d centered life?
For those of us (you and I are but two examples here) of those who opine that we elect to live our lives most fully abundantly, humanely, ethically etc.
We do so by having them be G-d centered.
We can live with the presence of evil without fully comprehending why it exists.
Our relationship with G-d is a strong motivator for us to do our part to make things better than they are.
There is a famous story (parable) about a seminarian.
As students of devotional texts and their application to addressing the problems and opportunities of life do, he or she prayed for understanding about why there is evil.
The Holy One, Blessed Be, could do something to prevent and rule it out for good and all.
Why has not G-d done something?
A Seraph (that type of angel who communicates for G-d to us) advised the student as follows.
The L-rd of Hosts wants you to know He daily does something about evil.
He sends people like you to address and prevail over it.
Get busy!
My life has been focused, among other activities on serving G-d by trying my best to be there for those who need and want what I was given to apply for them on terms most meaningful to them.
Not always, and quite frequently not because they deserve it.
Rather because they need and want it.
The best answer I can provide for this vexing problem is that we can sit around and jawbone about it.
The end result of that are a lot of theories from all sides which do nothing to advance the needs and goals of the human family.
For me and folks like me the best of all answers available isn't to be uncovered in doctrine or speculative philosophy.
Rather in service to humanity.
Stand up to evil as you would to any bully.
Do what you practically can to defeat, weaken and discourage it and its use for harm to others.
This is the best I can offer.
It is where I place the chips on the gaming table of life for me.
My bet is that there is no sure thing.
This is the best of all options I can find to deal with evil.
Don't speculate, subjegate.
Peace and Abundant Blessings to you and Yours John.
For a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
As well to all News Talkers who celebrate anything, most sincere wishes for a joyous and meaningful holiday(s) season.
Enoch.
P.S. Due to time pressures on things I must do in the next few weeks, I will be unable to address any posts regarding what I contributed to John's Insightful seed and key question posed.
That said, unless John or the site mods have a problem with it, you are encouraged as news talkers to put your 2 cents in.
"Come, let us reason together". E.
Lovely thoughts, Dear Enoch !
Dear Friend Pat Wilson: Many thanks.
Every good wish to you and yours for the end of this year, and all of next.
It is a time of the year to celebrate, reflect, button up and re-start again.
To you and yours the very best in each and all these things and more.
P&AB.
Enoch.
God had no plan for these people who died because there is no god. This is a worn out argument. What there was were a bunch of dudes who got together and came up with this scheme for the purpose of controlling large masses of people. Through the centuries this scheme has expanded to include more divine rules that control how people live their lives and who they vote for.
religion is the worst thing that could have happened to society. It has raped children and kept parents silent. It has raped women and kept society silent. It has elevated the worst of mankind for the purpose of power and greed.
in my opinion, religion is good for one group of people. the old and dying. it gives them purpose and hope.
There are some who have embraced the best of this religious scheme and are truly good people but there are very few compared to how many twist and misuse the concept and made up purpose of religion.
Yea, women and children would never be raped if not for religion. Good grief.......
I'm sure they would be raped without religion but my point is that you wouldn't have a large influential organization defending and hiding rapists like the church does.
The church has become nothing more than a pedophile organization that society has accepted and in many instances ignores.
Even though it has been exposed for raping and molesting children parents continue to march their children into these organizations and sacrifice them to clergy just so they can say they're going to heaven. How ludicrous is that? Offering your children up to be raped and molested for a place in a pew?
No maybe people would glorify it and make a sport out of it. Ever think of that? Look at what we have happening already. Ever hear of NAMBLA?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association
All religions derive from one another. The difference comes from the guy who decided he wanted more than one wife, or the guy who decided women needed to be covered from head to toe, or the guy who decided women needed to bow down to the man......actually that's all religions so scratch that example.