Trump Sides with Russia Over Brittney Griner
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
www.rollingstone.com /politics/politics-news/trump-brittney-griner-spoiled-drugs-1390633/
Trump Victim Blames Brittney Griner: ‘Spoiled,’ ‘Loaded Up With Drugs’
Peter Wade10-12 minutes 7/31/2022
Trump Sides with Russia Over Brittney Griner
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The former president blasted the U.S. government’s attempt to free the WNBA star imprisoned in Russia for cannabis possession
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Former President Donald Trump sounds like he wants WNBA player Brittney Griner to stay in a Russian prison. During a podcast appearance on the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Show, the former president voiced his opposition to the U.S. government’s reported offer to swap Griner and U.S. Marine Paul Whelan for Viktor Bout, a convicted Russian arms trafficker.
On the show, Trump maligned Griner as “a potentially spoiled person” who went to Russia “loaded up with drugs,” which is an exaggeration of her cannabis arrest.
Brittney Griner, a two-time Olympic gold medalist and seven-time WNBA All-Star was arrested and charged with illegal drug possession and with smuggling a “significant amount” of cannabis. According to the Russian government, customs officers found “vapes” containing hashish oil in Griner’s luggage at an airport close to Moscow. Griner stands little chance of freedom if her fate is left to the Russian criminal justice system, which significantly favors the prosecution.
“She knew you don’t go in there loaded up with drugs, and she admitted it,” Trump said Friday on the show. “I assume she admitted it without too much force because it is what it is, and it certainly doesn’t seem like a very good trade, does it? He’s absolutely one of the worst in the world, and he’s gonna be given his freedom because a potentially spoiled person goes into Russia loaded up with drugs.”
Trump continued, “She went in there loaded up with drugs into a hostile territory where they’re very vigilant about drugs. They don’t like drugs. And she got caught. And now we’re supposed to get her out — and she makes, you know, a lot of money, I guess. We’re supposed to get her out for an absolute killer and one of the biggest arms dealers in the world. Killed many Americans. Killed many people.”
Griner has pled guilty but said she accidentally brought cannabis into Russia. Her trial is ongoing, and she could face up to 10 years in prison. Although prisoner swaps with other nations are not typically favored by the U.S. government, CNN reported that the offer for Griner and Whelan has the support of President Joe Biden. Earlier this year, Biden engaged in a successful prisoner swap with Russia for former U.S. Marine Trevor Reed. Reed has said that the Griner offer makes him “cautiously optimistic” that the two Americans may come home.
During Wednesday’s ESPY Awards, Steph Curry, Megan Rapinoe, and WNBA athletes Nneka Ogwumike and Skylar Diggins-Smith pleaded for Griner’s release. “We cannot stop fighting for her,” Curry said.
Griner “deserves to be free,” Rapinoe added later in the ceremony. “She’s being held as a political prisoner.” Griner, like Rapinoe, is part of the LGBTQ community, and Russia is notoriously hostile towards members of this community.
CNN initially reported the potential trade of Bout for Griner and Whelan, although the administration has not directly confirmed the arms dealer was part of the offer. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Thursday that “so far, there is no agreement on this issue” of the trade, according to CNN.
Bout earned the nickname “The Merchant of Death” for his prolific arms trading. He was captured in 2008 during a U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency sting operation in Thailand. Bout was extradited to the U.S. and charged with conspiring to kill Americans and is now serving a 25-year-sentence.
Since the 2016 campaign, when numerous Trump associates had ties to the Russian government, the former president has broadcast his soft spot for Russia and its president, Vladimir Putin. As recently as this year, Trump has praised Putin, calling his invasion of Ukraine “genius.”
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Black, gay, and a professional basketball player. That is three strikes and you're out in MAGA world. Throw in Trump's love of Putin and Russia, and it is no surprise he would disparage an American being held unreasonably in a medieval Russian prison.
She probably thought she was special and entitled because she is "Black, gay, and a professional basketball player"
Or maybe just incredibly stupid and arrogant
They leave out that she broke Russian law, period.
[ deleted (sweeping generalization) ]
Remember Democrats and leftists getting really upset when Trump and Republicans got involved with trying to get him released.
[ deleted (sweeping generalization) ]
Of course they leave that out. Don't want to muddy the waters with anything like facts. For the simple minded it's better to play the race card and ignore her bullshit.
For me, this is not about being black or gay.
We have loads of people who come into our country and break our laws (including bringing in pot before it was legalized) and they didn't end up in prison for small amounts.
What you are doing is trying to defend the indefensible with Trump.
I agree 100%. But for many, that is all it's about.
This isn't about the US system. It's the Russian system. People seem to think that because they are American, the same rights and laws that apply in the US apply regardless of where they are. Then start crying when they find out the hard way it doesn't work that way.
What's indefensible is this "professional" expecting special treatment. SHE broke the law. SHE needs to be held accountable. It has nothing to do with the former POTUS. To even make the comparison is an idiotic gesture by this blogger.
The Russians are using "thier laws" as an excuse to embarrass America and to use as a bargaining chip. They have a long history of doing this to Americans.
And Trump knows that.
They are a rogue nation, and you never side with a rogue nation.
That's the bottom line here.
Five conservatives have commented on this seed so far. Every one of them have taken Trumps side. There is more involved here than just Russia's bad behavior.
I agree, I consider Americans, who expect special treatment, a rogue nation and try to never side with them. And before you accuse me of being sympathetic to Russia, remember who you are talking to.
A better dead than red Cold War Marine.
Sure she’s being used by an evil government but she put herself there and was reaping the benefits voluntarily.
This is like the flip side of Otto Warmbier imprisoned in North Korea and Andrew Tahmooressi, ex-USMC, jailed in Mexico. Both occurred during the Obama Administration and those on the right were critical that the administration was getting them quickly released. Social media had many comments from the left blaming both for their predicament and asking why should they get special treatment.
Look I am not defending her. Given what Russia is, I would have never played for them.
That being said, an Ex-Prez of the "Free World" should NEVER side with the BS of what Russia is doing here.
There is also no excuse for that.
I agree with both of your points.
Agreed, Trump simply has no filter.
Sorry, his comments were intentional. Filter has nothing to do with it.
" Prosecutors argued that Griner put the vape cartridges, which contained a total of 0.7 grams of cannabis oil"
Brittney Griner Pleads Guilty to Pot Charges in Russia | High Times
That's right, 0.7 grams of cannabis oil, sure sounds like she was “loaded up with drugs” and that she was smuggling a “significant amount” of cannabis, right? /s
This had nothing to do with feeling special or entitled, only a complete moron with zero understanding of cannabis would make that assessment. This is about Russian revenge against the United States in any way it can. Putin and his fuckwad regime despises America and western democracy and want to damage us any way they can. That's why they helped get dirty Donald elected in 2016. They are desperate for any leverage they can wield in order to retaliate against us. Some Putin cockholsters and Trump sycophants who try to make this about an American athletes gender, sexual orientation or skin color have their heads shoved so far up Trumps ass they're clearly lightheaded from his balloon knot tightening around their necks.
This same incident would have happened even if it was some unknown white male heterosexual businessman that forgot he had a tiny cartridge of what is legal medicine in the vast majority (39) US States. The only difference here is that because she is a 'high profile' American the Russians believe they can leverage her for more than they would have with the joe blow businessman. They even set up a former US Marine claiming he was a spy which is total bullshit, but Russia doesn't give a fuck about the truth or which Americans they target or which dissenters, journalists or political opponents they imprison or kill, Putin is desperate to 'Make Russia Great Again'. Perhaps Trump supporters can show their fascist fidelity by wearing MRGA hats as well since they clearly come out in droves to defend Russia every time Trump's puppet master Putin is shown for the despicable piece of trash he is.
I'm a life long moderate Republican...nowhere close to being a conservative.
If this was a white, straight woman it's doubtful you would care
So you are going to overlook that she broke the law? I'm not. I have no sympathy for her. Period.
You call Russia a "rogue nation". if they are such a rogue nation then why have we been working with them on so many things? Remember the ISS? During my military service I trained with the Russian military. Several times. If they are such a rogue nation then why was Griner permitted to go there? Sounds like they aren't as "rogue" as you want others to believe?
It doesn't matter what we would do, the question is .... Is that the case in Russia? Do you think they're applying different enforcement to Ms. Griner than they do to other people?
Bottom line is Griner should have known better. She knowingly broke another country's laws and is now responsible for the consequences of her actions.
I don't agree with Trump's extreme rhetoric, but I agree fully with your comment.
I don't agree with Trump's rhetoric either. He should have kept his mouth shut. He is a private citizen and entitled to his opinion but he chose the wrong time and the wrong venue to express himself.
Perrie, you cannot compare the attitude towards marajuana in America and Canada with that in nations that are VERY serious about it, like Russia and China. The consequences of it here are serious enough for execution in some cases, and Griner appears to be getting treated with more tolerance and care than others might be, perhaps because of her significance. It's not Russia's fault that she handed them a "Trump" card to play with.
All you have are deflections. Tiresome.
You mean enforcing their laws. How dare they!
You don't remember much apparently. He had more than 400 rounds of ammunition and three loaded guns: a .45 caliber pistol , a 12-gauge shotgun and a 5.56mm AR-15 assault rifle .
In addition to not being able to follow traffic directions, after being imprisoned
he attempted to escape and attempted to slash his throat with a broken light bulb
before being released on October 31, 2014.
In April of 2016
Former Marine Who Drove Across Border With Loaded Guns Arrested Again – NBC 7 San Diego (nbcsandiego.com)
Not the best comparison to Griner that I would use.
Retired? Medically perhaps.
Russia is not the US. You respect the laws of the country you go to! Learn the laws before you go and follow them!
Only self entitled assholes don't.
Used to smoke weed with Bob Marley back in the day. Was hanging out with a reggae band and attended the Sunsplash festival in Kingston Jamacia. Knowing Scotty was a good thing.
I don't agree with Trump's exaggerated rhetoric, nor yours, and IMO the title to the seed implies that Americans possess some kind of special entitlement that places them in a special position - an "exceptional" one, perhaps.
Trump’s words were cruel and stupid, but he didn’t reference her being black or gay. Solid criticism of the man depends on the truth, not simply whatever we can imagine.
Look, Trump had no reason, other than appealing to his base, to even comment on Greiner. The key to understanding this is that he accused Greiner of bringing a "load" of drugs into Russia. That is not true, so why is he lying?
He knows that much of his base does not like uppity blacks, LBGTQ, or professional basketball. He's dumb as a rock, but he knows where his political bread is buttered.
He also very much enjoys the sound of his own voice, so it isn’t necessarily political. It could just be a guy who likes to shoot his mouth off, um . . . shooting his mouth off.
It’s not much as lies go. He’s done far worse. She personally may not have been loaded up with drugs, but apparently her bag was. Not loaded a lot, of course, but just one bullet in a gun makes it “loaded.” He is making a big deal out of her having drugs on her.
I think that he is making too much of what appears to be a very minor infraction, but it’s pretty much the Republican brand these days to harshly judge people you don’t like. And you don’t need to be black or gay for that - though it helps. I’d honesty be surprised if he even knew that she’s gay. That assumes he looks into the case at all.
Please, did you hear him, he emphasized the "loaded" and said it more than once. He wasnt talking about one bullet in a gun making it "loaded".
Yes. We agree.
"Trump Victim Blames Brittney Griner: 'Spoiled,' 'Loaded Up With Drugs'"
Loaded up with drugs - what a fucking moron.
She was 'on the pot'
Stupid shit people say about cannabis. Or should I say fucking morons.
If it was Ivanka or Marjorie Taylor Greene being held in a Russian jail Trump would be on the next flight over there to plead for their release.
If Trump had done so, the amount of screeching and whining from some on the left would be deafening.
Not at all surprising.
When in Rome.....
Big surprise there.....
Since Griner made a habit of not standing for the National Anthem, which is saying she does not support the USA, it is hypocritical for her to expect support when it suits her.
Protests sometimes backfire
“Since Griner made a habit of not standing for the National Anthem, which is saying she does not support the USA,…”
Disagree here, Charger. The act is not in defiance of her country, it is an act to educate, to shine a light, and to make us better and live up to the promise. Substance over symbolism.
Our government should and must use every tool at their disposal to get her, and every detained citizen, home.
Perhaps. I definitely agree with substance over symbolism part.
"Every tool"? Does that include releasing a convicted killer and arms dealer back into the world in exchange? That was the primary concern expressed by Trump in the article before he fucked it up by bad-mouthing miss Griner as well. So I will ask you too, does releasing Viktor Bout in exchange for Griner and Whelan sound reasonable to you? Again, substance over symbolism.
Why?
Serious question.
Why should Americans who knowingly violate the laws of foreign countries expect the US Govt to intercede?
Bingo!
I agree with charger383. I would stand for the American National Anthem, and respect the Stars and Stripes, which I consider to be representations of your nation and its whole history, not your politics, not your temporary government, not your SCOTUS, but your land "from California to the New York island, from the redwood forest to the gulf stream waters" - and I've been to all those places and a lot more AND I'M NOT AN AMERICAN. I have no respect for those who do NOT show that respect.
I agree wholeheartedly to disagree.
LOL. You're entitled.
Please remind Brandon about those US citizens he "turned the page on" and are still trapped in Afghanistan.
I agree with you and Charger both. Having spent the first 20 years of my adult life in the service of my country in the US Navy through two wars and numerous other conflicts. I love my country dearly right or wrong, and I know it is not perfect. I have shed my blood for my country and my flag on two continents. I am no hero and nobody special, but I am a survivor. I am a patriot, but I am a quiet one and no fanatic. I will continue to defend my country and my flag for all those in this country, even those that do not appreciate the 200+ years of traditions and sacrifice that they stand for. My Oath of Enlistment to my country has no expiration date and nobody has ever relieved me of it.
Where do you come up with this shit?
Brittney Griner Believes National Anthem Has No Place In …
Did you bother to even read the article you just linked? It says the opposite of what you are claiming.
don't care why she acted that way, just that she basically said FO to USA
Only in your opinion. You want try for a different article this time? Maybe read it first though.
It has absolutely nothing to do with this.
charger doesn't usually deflect.
How so?
She is shown in the article of loving America so much, she does not feel the national anthem truly supports it. A national anthem about war, written at a time when the country supported slavery.
To borrow some of Charger383's language, she is saying a big FO to the anthem because she feels the country is better than the anthem portrays.
I didn't that anywhere, she was quoted as saying:
She doesn't say anything about the country, good or bad.
Yes, do you take the 4th of July off?
A perfectly reasonable attitude in a free country. I don’t agree with it but that’s her prerogative and mine as well.
Reading is fundamental.
Sometimes. Where I work is not closed on Independence Day.
Indeed.
That's right! Mickey D's is open on holidays isn't it.
Oh For Fuck's Sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She was not willing to show support for the country that she now wants to support her getting out of a bad situation.
She argued that it's not something that needs to be played at sporting events. There is no disrespect in that. A privately owned sports league not funded by the federal government has no reason to play the anthem before each game.
As she said "It’s not played at Walmart, it’s not played when you go to Six Flags. Why is it played before sporting events?"
She has a pretty valid point. If your definition of showing "support for the country" amounts to standing with your hand over your heart during the national anthem at a sports event then you've got zero reason to question another Americans patriotism.
The only debate we should be having is how we get our American citizens out of the hands of a murderous piece of shit fascist regime that hates America, our anthem and everything we stand for and is the exact opposite of western democracy and the freedoms we cherish.
I agree with her. It was always stupid to me to have to hear it before a 'game'.
No point to it what so ever.
Exactly, this country certainly doesn't need any exhibitions of unity or togetherness. And given their attitude of many here, the national anthem is another old cultural artifact that just divides us further. Doing the wave and repeated chant of “DE-FENSE” (clap-clap) “DE-FENSE” (clap-clap) should be enough togetherness.
No. The first debate we should be having is whether or not we should do that at all.
I don't mean Ms. Griner specifically. I mean all Americans who knowingly break the laws of whatever foreign country they're in.
It was all a ruse to get more people interested in watching baseball...
Exactly, just another deception that we have shared values or any feelings of being united. Kinda like our nations name is another ruse, United States - get real.
There is still no point to it. You can call it as being unity when the facts are the baseball league used it and veterans, as a way to get people to games when people were weary from WW1.
Of course not, national symbols intend to unite people by creating visual or verbal representations of the nation are so last century. The only good they does is to provide a platform to publicly protest or racist, dysfunctional country.
Yep. We all know the country has zero faults and we are all one big happy family...
No zero faults, don't be silly. We should have no expressions of national unity until we reach zero faults. Kneeling or sitting during the National Anthem is today's brave demonstration like marching over the Edmund Pettus Bridge or facing the police dogs and fire hoses in Birmingham.
Elected officials telling constituents to hate each other...
Uh-huh.
Trump is no longer an elected official, if that is what you mean, and for good reason. And even he never called voters who disagreed with his agenda "deplorables" or suggest that they are "racist" or "support racism", and had the rest of his party cheer that on.
Divisiveness is a two-way highway my friend, without a center divider... where head-on collisions are bound to happen. Which party will finally put an end to this cycle of partisan division and hateful rhetoric? The time is ripe for a Rational and Reasonable Party, unencumbered by the binary worldviews and disdain between the R and D parties and those who rabidly follow/support them.
Thanks for the sermon yet if you read my comment I don't see where I blamed either side over the other.
If you find it let me know and I will gladly sit through another lecture...
In the mean time....
The idea that Republicans and Democrats are equally responsible for the downgraded condition America is in is completely delusional.
Only one party still supports a criminal who tried to steal the 2020 election.
Exactly, the Dems gave up on Gore after several months and on Kerry after even less.
And then expect special treatment because they are a celebrity allowing them to slide on by.
You're welcome! It was more of a summary really....
Never said you did. In fact, I even asked you what you meant. So we are in agreement then as I don't blame one side over the other either. Trump was a train wreck when it comes to divisiveness, but he didn't happen in a vacuum.
Excellent! What other topics pique your interest?
What? In the meantime what? C'mon man don't leave me hanging....
I was thinking about that earlier.
If she wasn't famous, would anybody be incensed about her incarceration?
If this was you or me, nobody would care at all. They sure as hell would not be suggesting we set a convicted arms dealer loose to get us back. So why should we do it for her? She's made less contribution to society than most people. Why is she special?
The "downgraded condition" of America is a completely separate matter. I was merely addressing Ender's abrupt and incomplete sentence:
And if one can't grasp the reality that Republicans and Democrats are equally responsible for THAT, then I'm afraid someone has not been paying attention for the last 20-30 years.
See post 6.3
What a nonsense 'argument'
She argued that it's not something that needs to be played at sporting events. There is no disrespect in that. A privately owned sports league not funded by the federal government has no reason to play the anthem before each game.
As she said "It’s not played at Walmart, it’s not played when you go to Six Flags. Why is it played before sporting events?"
She has a pretty valid point. If your definition of showing "support for the country" amounts to standing with your hand over your heart during the national anthem at a sports event then you've got zero reason to question another Americans patriotism.
The only debate we should be having is how we get our American citizens out of the hands of a murderous piece of shit fascist regime that hates America, our anthem and everything we stand for and is the exact opposite of western democracy and the freedoms we cherish.
You always get it right DP.
Oh bother - spread your enlightenment to today's republicans/gop/gqp. The kings and queens of divisiveness.
So profound
Regarding the deplorables and just about everything else Hillary said - WAS CORRECT!!!!
It was a sermon. No thank you.
We're not equally responsible.
Go preach that nonsense to those who believe it - those who still support the trumpturd.
Maybe she makes a good argument about that, and maybe they shouldn't raise the flag at schools because after all what do the anthem and pledges of allegience and respect for the flag have to do with education, and in fact why raise the flag on public buildings at all? However, IMO she should make the argument, she has the right to do it, but not show disrespect - what effect does her show of disrespect have on kids who follow her or admire her, now being taught that their anthem isn't at all important or meaningful.
Nah. They wouldn’t believe it any more than you do. I think that much is clear. The only difference between them and others who think it is nonsense is the party color of the blinders.
Let me ask you this though Tessy, although he said some nasty and untrue things about miss Griner and I agree he is an asshole for that (among many other things), the primary focus of Trumps comments in this article is that we should not consider a deal with the Russians that would include their desired release of the murdering arms dealer Viktor Bout for miss Griner and/or others. First, in what possible way is that a pro-Russian stance, i.e. how is it “siding with Russia”? And second, how do YOU feel about such a deal? Is it right to put other lives in serious danger, or should we seek other ways of getting miss Griner and others home? Trump is wrong in many many ways, but do you really think he is wrong about this?
He is wrong about EVERYTHING.
You can’t reason with “true believer” unless you happen to be 100% simpatico with them.
So you think we should agree with Russia and release a convicted killer nicknamed “The Merchant of Death” in exchange for Brittney Griner? Just want to be clear here on who is “siding with Russia”.
And if it does, she will most likely continue to badmouth it anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth.
The one who is siding with russia is trumpturd.
Exactly. Griner is saying that the anthem does not affect the game. Period.
Playing the anthem is less than 90 years old as far as precedent goes.
And apparently precedent isn't legally binding anymore.
When Old Glory is hoisted in the morning or retired at sunset on any military station
everyone on base stops what they are doing, traffic stops all over base as it should.
Decades ago, the vendors in the halls outside the ballpark used to stop selling food & drink.
Not anymore.
“So you think we should agree with Russia…”
Nope. But we have citizens interred by a hostile nation. Swaps have occurred for decades, but now both sides have high profile bargaining chips. He is an asset that will be on every country’s radar and thus forever compromised.
She is an American citizen, period…only to be compromised by those politically motivated. Just who is the weakest voice here?
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I am asking you if you think we should side with Russia in terms of trading the release of convicted arms dealer, murderer and enemy of the US Viktor Bout for the release of Brittney Griner and potentially Whelan? Note the question mark at the end of my sentence. It is a simple question. And in this particular matter, Trumpturd is most certainly NOT siding with Russia. Why is that so difficult for you to see?
When the common everyday man doesn't give a shit about the anthem why do they expect ball players to give a shit?
I've seen so-called patriots continue driving on base during reveille or retreat (I'm talking military wives who think their shit doesn't stink)
That's the correct answer.
"I'm not putting words in your mouth. I am asking you if you think we should side with Russia in terms of trading the release of convicted arms dealer, murderer and enemy of the US Viktor Bout for the release of Brittney Griner and potentially Whelan? Note the question mark at the end of my sentence. It is a simple question. And in this particular matter, Trumpturd is most certainly NOT siding with Russia. Why is that so difficult for you to see?"
Yes, you are.
trumpturd is siding with russia. Why is that so difficult for you to see?
Russia feels we should make the deal for Bout and it sounds to me like you agree. So what does "Nope" mean?
Of course we do, and we have some of theirs held here too. The question is, do we put other lives at risk by making deals with a hostile nation that includes releasing a known criminal who actually conspired to kill Americans? It isn't just about this particular case, it is about the precedent that sets.
He was that before he was finally captured as well. How do you think he earned the nickname "Merchant of Death"?
I don't entirely disagree with that, her activism and freedom of expression should have absolutely no bearing on the matter of brokering a deal for her release. However, if her release involves an unreasonable demand by the "hostile nation" that puts other lives at risk, does that make sense and how do you think she might feel about that? Again, as you aptly invoked in the thread above, "substance over symbolism".
I would say the victims of "The Merchant of Death", past or future. In fact, they would have no voice in the matter at all if this deal is brokered and we cave to the demands of a hostile nation.
I swear, you just have to have the last word don't you?
{Sigh} OK - One last try. Simple logic:
1. Russia wants to arrange a deal involving the the release of Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan in exchange for the US release of convicted murderer and hostile to America arms dealer Viktor Bout.
2. Trump says he strongly disagrees with such a deal.
3. Trump is NOT siding with Russia on this matter.
If your conclusion is anything other than what I wrote in item 3 above, then perhaps you could explain your logic here?
And I'm not asking you a gotcha question like, "Did you order the Code Red!" I'm truly interested to know if you think we should side with Russia in terms of trading the release of convicted arms dealer, murderer and enemy of the US Viktor Bout for the release of Brittney Griner and potentially Whelan? Why won't you answer that simple question?
Do you think that Trump has a history of siding with Russia? yes or no.
The current U.S. government is evidently negotiating for the release of Americans being unjustly imprisoned in Russia. Why is Trump, who is not in the government, trying to sabotage those negotiations? Of course he wants to try and embarrass Biden, but also is signaling favoritism towards Russia, which he has been doing for years, and signaling disapproval of griner as a person.
He is a jagoff.
Too general. Yes on some things, no on others.
Well he was asked what he thought about the latest deal on the table and he answered. Does that amount to sabotage?
I don't doubt that he would take an opportunity to embarrass Biden (or vice-versa), but you will need to explain to me how disagreeing with a trade for the release of Viktor Bout of all people in this matter is "signaling favoritism toward Russia". That is a deal that THEY want! Accepting such a deal would be actually showing favoritism towards what Russia wants, and in a very dangerous way I might add.
I agree 100% with that last statement, and that he should not have opined on his feelings about miss Griner as a person. This should have nothing to do with what anyone thinks of miss Griner. You won't see me thumbing up any comments here that are aimed at disparaging her as a person, or for exercising her right to express her self as she sees fit in a free country. She made a mistake in Russia, against their laws and she admitted as much. I have said time and again here that I believe the Biden administration should very much continue to negotiate for her release and the release of Paul Whelan. But we cannot cave to the demands of a hostile nation to release a dangerous convicted killer and arms dealer who has already conspired to kill many Americans when an American citizen trips over the law in another country. It simply is not rational policy and could have disastrous results.
Yes it does. He could have easily said "no comment", or "I dont want to say anything negative about negotiations to free these Americans", as most normal people would do. This was intentional on Trump's part, a bone thrown to his base.
Who is Viktor Bout, the prisoner the U.S. may trade for Brittney Griner?
Where most people saw chaos, Viktor Bout saw opportunity.
Bout, a 55-year-old Russian, was the world's most notorious arms dealer before a U.S. court convicted him in 2011 and sent him to a prison in Illinois. He's now the focus of a potential prisoner swap between the U.S. and Russia, which holds two Americans the Biden administration hopes to free.
Bout was in his mid-20s when the Soviet Union fractured in 1991, leaving vast quantities of Soviet military hardware scattered across 15 newly minted countries. Most all of them were ill-equipped to pay their troops or keep track of the weapons they'd just inherited. Almost anything was available for a price.
Trained by the Soviet military as a linguist, Bout began acquiring Soviet military transport planes and loaded them up with weapons. The U.S. says he sold them all over the world. Various reports linked him to wars in Afghanistan, Angola, Congo, Lebanon, Somalia, Yemen and more.
He was entrepreneurial, not ideological, selling to governments that were fighting rebels, and to rebels who were fighting governments. Separating fact from fiction has often been difficult when documenting Bout's work, but many reports said he even sold arms to both sides in the same conflict.
Bout always denied he was selling weapons, claiming he was flying flowers and frozen chickens to some of the world's most violent places.
He was always hard to pin down, but he lived openly in Moscow, traveled widely, occasionally spoke to reporters and seemed to welcome at least some of the attention. He became so notorious that Hollywood made a 2005 movie loosely based on his life, called the Lord of War , starring Nicolas Cage.
Bout was nicknamed "The Merchant of Death," which was also the title of a biography.
Despite facing international sanctions and threats of arrest, Bout managed to stay a step ahead of law enforcement until 2008, when he was captured in a sting operation in Thailand, organized by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency.
The Thais extradited Bout to the U.S. two years later, where he was charged with conspiring to kill Americans. He was convicted in a Manhattan court in 2011, and is a little less than halfway through his 25-year sentence at a prison in Marion, Ill.
The Kremlin's angle
So why would Russian leader Vladimir Putin want to bring Bout back?
After all, he made his money selling weapons that had been intended for use by the Soviet Union's military and successor countries.
When CIA director William Burns was asked this question last week at the Aspen Security Forum, he said succinctly: "That's a good question, because Viktor Bout's a creep."
Dan Hoffman, a former CIA officer who served in Russia, said Putin's motives should be viewed through the lens of his ongoing battle with the U.S.
"Every opportunity he gets, Vladimir Putin wants to show that he can go toe-to-toe with Russia's main enemy," Hoffman said. "It's a real good public relations move for him to show that he's taking care of his own."
The U.S. and Russia have a history of working out deals to gain the return of their own citizens. In April, the U.S. released a Russian pilot convicted or conspiring to bring drugs into the U.S., and Russia freed Trevor Reed , a former Marine who'd been convicted of assaulting a Moscow police officer.
More commonly, the countries kicked out suspected spies in tit-for-tat deals.
But the current negotiations appear uneven in some respects. The U.S. would be freeing a convicted arms smuggler who operated on an international scale for close to two decades.
Meanwhile, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Wednesday that the two Americans, Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan have been "wrongfully detained and must be allowed to come home."
Griner, 31, is the pro basketball star who has pleaded guilty to having hashish oil in her suitcase at a Moscow airport in February. Whelan, 52, a former Marine who traveled openly to Russia for years, was arrested in 2018 and convicted on espionage charges in a secret trial.
Limited options
Dan Hoffman says he supports the efforts to win the release of the Americans.
"These are dirty deals, but there's two bad options," he said. "One is letting American citizens get sick, and potentially even worse, in jail. And the other one is make essentially a dirty deal. If it's me, I'll get my U.S. citizens out."
Blinken said he's presented a plan to Russia for the return of two Americans, though he did not mention Bout by name. Blinken plans to speak with his Russian counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, though it's not clear when that might be. The two have not spoken since Russia invaded Ukraine in February.
A U.S.-Russian prisoner swap would signal the two countries can still do business on some level despite the terrible state of relations and the backdrop of the war in Ukraine, where the Americans are the leading arms supplier to the Ukrainians.
But analysts say there's no real prospect that the overall atmosphere — which has been going from bad to worse — is likely to improve.
Greg Myre is an NPR national security correspondent. Follow him @gregmyre1 .
Viktor Bout is not serving a life sentence. He will get out, one way or another , at one time or another.
Has arms dealing ceased while he is in prison? Not that I know of.
Sure he is a bad guy and its possible, although not certain, that he will go back to dealing arms to anyone who has the cash. But he took advantage of a unique situation in Russia, when they had surplus weapons due to the break up of the Soviet Union. Who knows if he would ever get the same opportunities again?
Fair enough, he most certainly could have done that. However, what he did say was certainly not "siding with Russia" as the title of this article suggests. In fact, it was the complete opposite, a rejection of what he saw as a bad and dangerous deal with Russia that was put on the table.
You're dreaming.
No he has been siding with the Russians on everything. No matter what
I'm not even reading your responses now. Waste of time
What am I dreaming John? You can read and comprehend as well as I. What is incorrect about my logic posed to Tessy in #6.3.44 with respect to the content of this article? Please tell me, and don't simply dismiss it with repeated unsubstantiated platitudes like at least one other here has done. I have supported my position on this with logic and reasoned analysis based on the facts and what was said and without any ill will toward miss Griner.
I have maintained throughout that I support the administration's efforts to see Griner and Whelan released, but not at the cost of endangering others lives and/or setting a horrible policy precedent by agreeing to Russia's demands on this particular "deal". If that is "dreaming", then I'll take it over the potential nightmare any day.
If you believe Griner and the other American are not worth releasing an arms dealer who is not serving a life sentence and will eventually be released anyway, thats fine, thats your opinion.
You're dreaming if you think Trump's motivation was to voice displeasure at the release of an arms dealer. His motivation was to dogwhistle his base and try to embarrass Biden. He couldnt care less who gets let out of jail.
Bout is eligible for parole in 2029.
Report: Biden Offers Viktor Bout For Brittney Griner And Another American Prisoner | Defector
Excellent! Thank you for considering my opinion. Very gracious.
Eligible for parole, not likely to be released. At this point he is only 10 years into his 25 year sentence, but if you think it is important to get him back out on the streets ASAP, as Russia has been demanding for a decade, then that's fine, that's your opinion.
In case there are any doubts that this deal plays right into Russia/Putin's hands, please keep in mind that they are now also wanting a second murderer released from a prison in Germany, and consider the following from Yahoo News :
and
I mean let's at least be honest about who really wanted this deal and who disagrees with it.
And from the NYT : (underline and blue emphasis mine)
So I suppose my question is, if one is going to consider or tender a prisoner swap deal with Russia, a country one considers to be a hostile enemy or rogue nation, then why start by considering/offering the most dangerous and highly sought Russian criminal right out of the gate? Why play directly into the hands of ones enemy? Doing so is most certainly "siding with Russia".
Yep. Perfect example of their way or the highway with zero middle ground or room for compromise.
Nothing like tarring all with the same brush is there. It is so convenient isn't it because it fits the agenda. The idea that there are conservative Independents and/or Republicans that do not like or support Trump but do not share or like your liberal ideology is almost total anathema to many on the liberal left. It has to be all or nothing with no middle ground or room for compromise
Now that I have made the point about her not standing for the National Anthem and how that came back to bite her, I hope She is released and back to playing in WNBA at a high level and the layoff does not affect her play. It would be nice when she returns if she says she is happy to be back in a great country.
Maybe this can be a learning situation.
Personally, I just do not see that happening.
I just hope that what we learn isn’t that releasing The Merchant of Death to do what he had done for decades before his capture wasn’t a huge mistake that will cost more American or other lives around the world. Or that rogue nations like Russia continue to use such tactics to get want they want, making the world a much more dangerous place. Those lessons will be much harder to live with.
Judging by the right wing comments on this seed, I guess Trump knows his audience.
She broke Russian law...which a wise person would not have done. Why are you defending this arrogant fool?
It's not Trump's fault she is in trouble...it's HER fault.
Greg, she did but they have also jailed Americans on trumped-up charges (no pun implied). Even before pot was legalized in the US, this would never happen. Russia behaves like a rogue nation because it is one.
The fact that Trump sided with Russia is pretty sad after all they have done this year.
It's not Trumps fault she's in jail, but it is his fault that he is trying to turn Americans against a negotiation to get her and other Americans released. He is a scumball dogwhistleing his political base.
I agree that Trump should have just kept his big mouth shut about the matter and he definitely exaggerated about her being "loaded up on drugs". He is certainly an ass and that is what he does. However, to say that he "sided with Russia" is not entirely accurate either IMHO. He simply repeated several times that trading her for a killer and arms dealer like Viktor Bout was not a good idea. His being very clear about that matter is the exact opposite of "siding with Russia". Nobody here has addressed that issue which was essentially the main concern Trump had in the article. Does releasing a guy like Bout in exchange for miss Griner or others sound reasonable to you?
I do hope that the current administration is able to broker a deal for Griner's release, but putting other people's lives in danger by releasing a guy like Bout in exchange does not sound like a rational or reasonable option. Aside from making that point Trump should keep his big pie hole shut.
It's a bit more complicated than Trump made it sound. The trade (as I understand it) is for two people Griner and Paul Whelan, who was arrested on the accusation he was a spy. There is no proof that he is.
I wouldn't be for such a trade if it was just her, for such an animal like Bout, but it is not. So Trump misrepresented the deal (if there is such a deal in the works), and sided with Russia.
He really should learn to keep his mouth shut, while he is playing golf with the Saudis. Btw, I am a 9/11 survivor, and he had plenty to say about the Saudis back then. Now he is chums with them.
Agreed. With respect to Trump's quotes in the article he did not mention Whelan as part of that potential deal. Even so, I do hope the current administration can broker a deal for Griner and Whelan, but trading for the release of Viktor Bout does not seem rational or reasonable in any case, and it plays right into Russia’s desire/demands to have Bout released from the day he was captured.
So you feel that because another nation's laws take drugs more seriously than the USA does then it's a rogue nation? I wonder if other nations that believe women have rights over their bodies and don't criminalize abortion think the USA is a rogue nation.
Is that what I said? It's a rouge nation because it invaded a sovereign country. Its laws are its laws, but they are using it as an excuse to embarrass us and to get a criminal out of jail.
I mean give me a break Buzz.
Would that be like the US going into Iraq in 2003?
A physical invasion of another country isn't the only method that can be used to cause damage. Some nations could be considered rogues as well when they use other weapons, such as sanctions, proxies, containment, demonization, blacklisting, tariffs, provocations, travel bans, which might cause real harm to small nations like Cuba, but maybe not bigger ones.
We have American laws too. We jail hundreds of people every year right here for the same thing, bringing drugs into America. It's also illegal to take a gun on an airplane. You know, like Madison Cawthorn did. Twice. I'd rather fly on a plane where everybody has lots of drugs than on a plane with one person with a gun.
And it looks like we are all for not being a spoiled little shit and obeying the laws.
Poor little loudmouth imbecile. You didn't know you'd be held accountable for your actions? You're not in the US. You actually have to take accountability of yourself.
Enjoy your time in jail.
Looks I caught the attention of the trolls.
Does not take much on NT.
No it does not.
Sadly it doesn't.
The only reason Griner traveled to Russia was to make money playing basketball. Griner has been playing off-season basketball in Russia for seven years. Griner can't claim ignorance of Russian laws.
Griner played for a team owned by a Russian oligarch. And it appears that Griner expected that connection to a Russian oligarch would allow her 'privileges'. Perhaps it has over the last six years. There is some evidence, apparently, that Russian oligarchs use women's basketball to launder money. So, Griner was only chasing a gravy train and didn't care where the money came from.
The pity parade for Brittney Griner is trying to make her something other than what she really is.
And the usual dupes loudly lead the way
The reality-fluid and truth-flexible can only see what's in it for them. Apparently that's what got Brittney Griner into this mess.
We pay no attention to the usual dupes.
They're not who you think they are.
Good to know I'm not a 'usual dupe'.
Whoosh . . . . . .
Yup, kinda looks like it.
Said a usual dupe
Is she claiming ignorance? I thought she was saying it was just a thing she forgot was in her bag.
Sorry, but that little thing just got her convicted of a major crime in a foreign country, and I doubt it was a oversight on her part.
A “ major crime?”
Laugh all you want. It was to the Russians.
That is what really matters.
How do you know? Do you know how much time a Russian citizen spends in jail for having a little cannabis in a vape pen?
[Deleted]
No I don't. Do you?
I’m not the one who made the claim that it was a “major crime” to the Russians. You were.
As for me, I only ever claimed to compare it to America, where it’s not a major crime. I would also include most of the developed world.
I would reserve the word “major” to describe other crimes - crimes with a victim, for starters. And then, I would add on some kind of substantial bodily injury or theft of high value property. Maybe something involving a weapon. Not mere possession of a flippin vape pen with some trace amount of cannabis.
Okay, I admit I may have overstepped a bit on the major crime part of my comment and my apologies, but it was still a crime none the less to the Russians that she appears to have knowingly violated. Different countries and different laws, miniscule amounts or not.
9+ years. In a Russian prison. For residue. As an American.
Get her home.
Trump should shut his fat yap. Putin probably told him, she hung out around the rim, and what reason would Putin have to LIE ?
As a former potUS, he should shut the fck up. If he wishes to talk so much, how about testifying in front of the Congressional "witch hunt" as he calls it, and PROVING you are on AMERICA'S SIDE for once.
Cause we all know, Trump is ONLY on HIS side, and whatever benefits Trump and his bank account.
A poor excuse of a "man", with the little hands down heavy pants grabbin 'pussy' and stabbin backs while upfront about facing NONE of it, as he is witnessed doing ALL of it.
There is not a less patriotic person on this planet than 45.
Disregard this Putin placed in office piece of Paramecium poo poo as he proclaims a political prisoner whose 'pussy' he wished to grab was 'spoiled', as spouted by one whose father left him $400,000,000.00 or so, cause how does he portray someone as spoiled, when he and his followers wrap them selves in Aluminum foil to slow the decay that ferments in rabid foaming ears while forming what appears to his defending peers opinions, opined to shut out reality, of the actuality that is propaganda spread to infect the peons head s up their own asses, and deceive the masses, all because he can, and they Barbi, as he grabs them buy the 'pussy' while being P'eed upon buy performing Russian prostitutes , cause Trump and they Perrrrrrrfect together.....
Russia has a long history of taking citizens of other countries on trumped-up charges to use as a bargaining chips at a later time, this is true of most despot regimes.
At the end of WWII Russia freed a few thousand US troops from Nazi POW camps and the US expected them to be repatriated quickly. Stalin had other thoughts and held them to get back Russian troops that had been freed from Nazi POW camps back to Russia when most of the Russian troops didn't want to return to Russia since Stalin considered them criminals for being captured.
This is an interesting article even though it's over a year old it shows the number of US citizens taken hostage by foreign governments, this does not include the latest ones.
Trumped up charges? Am I wrong, or did Griner not ADMIT she broke the law?
Yes, she did, but do you think that it may have been to try to get a lenient sentence? That has been known to happen with people that were innocent.
BTW, China is another country that seems to have flair for this type of BS.
Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig should ring a bell. Both Canadian citizens held by China on BS charges.
Maybe so, but I don't think it was a trumped up case, although I think you might think so.
I didn't know that it was China that was holding Griner, I thought the topic was Russia, but I agree with you on that anyway. However I also believe that the charges against Weng (CFO of Huawei) were BS, especially when the judge declared that she couldn't understand the claim the Americans were bringing and America then immediately made a deal to release her, obviously because of the realization that the Canadian court was not going to go along with the American BS, where they failed to provide all of what Weng had said to the bank. Tit for tat?
I should clarify that it's commonplace for persons who KNOW they are guilty of a crime to plead guilty in order to alleviate the sentence. I believe she knew she was guilty of a crime. I doubt that it's commonplace to plead guilty to a crime one didn't commit, although I think it has happened even in western countries. In Griner's case, I believe she did import cannabis and she knew it was a crime to do so..
It’s actually pretty common for people who are not guilty of a crime to plead guilty. It’s quicker and cheaper than going to trial and the outcome is a sure thing. No matter how innocent you might be, nothing is guaranteed at trial, and any sentencing is always worse than if you had taken the deal.
It’s also common for people who know good and hell well they are guilty to plead not guilty - for a variety of reasons.
Believe whatever you want, Buzz. I don't live in China so I have no need or will to defend it.
If you would have read the link that I provided you would see how in the past 20 years more Americans are being held by foreign governments they by terrorists.
LOL. Of course I couldn't open the link, which is no surprise to me and I'm sure no surprise to you either. I don't have any NEED to defend China, but I do have the brains and will to defend what I believe is right.
I didn't know you couldn't open the link but I also stated what was in it. Perhaps if you didn't live in China you could open all links afforded you.
There are quite a few foreign news sites I can open and I read the Microsoft Bing News, USA Today, npr World News, npr American News, CTV (Canada Television News) every morning. But I also watch CGTN News and read the China Daily to get what Paul Harvey used to call "The Rest of the Story". Most people on this site are only aware of THEIR side of the story.
As for living in China, I'm very happy here, and can live much more comfortably on my income than I could even come close to in America or Canada.
However, Pelosi has probably endangered me (all Americans here for sure) because I can be mistaken for an American. The people here love their motherland and are loyal to their government and IMO now have good cause to be angry with America. I'll have to be sure to wear my T-shirt when I go out these hot days (40 C normally) that says CANADA in big bold letters with a big Canadian flag.
Mitch McConnell came out in support of Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, saying no one can tell American political leaders what places they cannot visit.
I expect this "issue" to blow over as quickly as it started.
Personally I'm waiting to see what China intends to do in retaliation to Pelosi's humiliation of the Chinese people. Although I know it doesn't want to do stupid provocative things like Pelosi did, but I've been speculating on possibilties. Remember, these are guesses only.
Since America has no respect for China's red line on Taiwan, China may not be concerned about America's red line on Ukraine, and may decide to forego its neutrality and provide Putin with support like America has been providing to Ukraine, causing America to throw even more money at Ukraine to keep the war going (isn't war good business?) when the American people need that money more.
China may impose tariffs on all Chinese exports to the USA, which will strangle Americans who are already suffering from record inflation, and since "It's the economy, stupid", Pelosi's indiscretion may be her swan song, and that of the Democrats generally.
Although I really doubt this, China could make its military move against Taiwan, and there are a lot of opinions that America would not get involved, certainly not more than it is in Ukraine, and China's takover could be accomplished very quickly.
What do you think, John? What do you think is going to happen?
I would expect the Chinese dictatorship to do what they frequently do, continue to attempt to degrade, humiliate and intimidate the free people of Taiwan.
The Chinese dictatorship's "red line" merely means they claim the right and privilege to destroy the lives of the people of Taiwan, much as they did to the formerly free people of Hong Kong.
If China were to impose tariffs on all Chinese exports to the U.S., that would, of course, be suicidal and spell the end of China's already weakened economy.
Walking around with a Canadian T shirt... don't think that is going to save you Buzz..
You will still be an imperialist capitalist pig I think it was they use to call us ..and a Westerner to boot..cricky they might even think you are a spy...
So can the Chinese government kick you out, if push comes to shove??
The people of Hong Kong are destroyed? That's strange, I've seen a lot of recent street scene videos of the people in Hong Kong and they didn't look destroyed to me. I'm pretty sure those videos weren't staged. Vas you dere, Charley? If and in the event that the CPC were to take over Taiwan I don't think the people of Taiwan would be any worse off than the people in Hong Kong right now. What do you think would happen? Do you think they would all be executed or made into slaves?
LOL. In 3 days I will have been in China for 16 years. I'm not Chinese, and I don't look Chinese, I look no different than any westerner and there are lots of westerners here. In all the time I've been here, only twice had I been shown disrespect. The first time was about 13 years ago by a bus conductor, and the second time about a year ago by someone when I was out with my wife and a person said in Chinese "Go home low-eye" (i.e. foreigner) and my wife told me afterwards because I hadn't even heard him. Otherwise I have ALWAYS been treated with respect whether it was a CPC Party Secretary or a policeman or a store staff person or a street vendor - absolutely NOBODY has ever treated me like an "imperialist capitalist pig" as you suggest.
Why would they kick me out? I don't break the laws, or insult or hurt anyone, and I've never had a problem renewing my visa. Believe it or not, and I know there are some who have never been here who do believe it, China isn't some kind of Hell on Earth (although I have just noticed that one who has toured here seems to think so).
It's the old story..as things deteriorate suspicion grows...no matter who you are or where you are...when countries are sabre rattling...
So if things go down the gurgler you don't think the government officials will not be keeping an eye on all westerners based in China?..and I am very sure they do that now...we do tend to stand out like a sore thumbs in Asian countries...
Can follow the laws of the land to a T, but as you are not a permanent citizen ( I think you said) and retain your Canadian citizenship you would be fair game if it hits the fan...I don't think they will be very happy with any Westerners in their midst...
If you feel the need now to walk around with a Canadian T shirt on to distinguish yourself and let it be known you are Canadian and not American...it maybe a sign of things to come.
Sorry shona but I'm not so paranoid as you. I just don't want to be identified as an American these days for what really should be pretty obvious reasons.
Off topic: Buzz. Do you know anymore about the kindergarten attack with a knife over there?? Just said three dead 6 injured here...
Geez what is it with bloody morons attacking schools and kindergartens around the world...
Can always wear an Aussie T Shirt.. second thoughts we aren't exactly flavour of the month in China either... better stick to the Canadian one..🐨🐨
It surprises me, because a few years back a few such incidents took place and I thought that those schools were now all gated with guards. The Montessori kindergarten next to my building is. They know who the 48 year old man is and are looking for him.
For a while Canada wasn't so well liked either, when they were detaining Weng, the CFO of Huawei, on an extradition matter trumped up by the USA. But Canada allowed her to live in one of the two mansions she owned in Vancouver, had to wear one of those GPS locater anklets, but was allowed to go anywhere anytime in Vancouver as long as she was accompanied by a police chaperone. I guess if you're to be incarcerated that's about as acceptable a way as possible. However, when the judge told the Americans she couldn't understand the case they were trying to bring against her they realized the jig was up and agreed for her to be released. Right now I know that China is in the process of reinstating normal relations with Canada.
Yes, many, many lives have been destroyed. Because you have only a controlled press for your information, you are probably not aware that there are now over 1,000 political prisoners in jail in Hong Kong for "political offenses", including leaders of NGOs, trade unions and protest groups, as well as journalists, activists, teachers, students, opposition politicians and lawyers.
"Dozens have been jailed for a year or longer without bail in the legal limbo of “pretrial detention.” Some 47 opposition politicians face possible life in prison because they participated in a primary election, considered subversive in the new Hong Kong.
"Civil society has been decimated, with more than 50 activist groups shuttered by the government or pressured to close. Campus student unions have been dissolved. The giant Confederation of Trade Unions, with at least 70 affiliate unions, disbanded in October . One of the largest affiliates, the 100,000-member Professional Teachers Union, closed down after being branded a “malignant tumor” in China’s state-run media. Popular media outlets have been shut or voluntarily closed , their online archives scrubbed clean.
Hong Kong has seen a net outflow of some 157,000 people in the first quarter of the year, leading to fretting about a “brain drain” of accountants, engineers and IT professionals . So many young families have left that top elementary and high schools — where it was once difficult to find a place — are now struggling to fill thousands of vacancies. "
More that 3/4 of the political prisoners are under 30. Their lives are devastated. Furthermore, the affect on the rest of the formerly free people of Hong Kong is devastating.
Have YOU been there? No, of course not. What you see on the state controlled media in China is absolutely suspect.
Since you are referring to me, I will respond. I was in China for 3 weeks 5 years ago. It was an interesting, fascinating trip, although the air pollution was so extreme it was terrible.
The Chinese people were almost uniformly very friendly, just as people are everywhere in the world that I have been. It certainly did not have the appearance of a what we would think of as a stereotypical communist dictatorship. In fact, there was business going on everywhere and it seemed like a capitalist society. When I mentioned that to one of the tour guides we hired, she responded that they refer to it as "socialism with Chinese characteristics", and she laughed. It later turned out that was the new slogan the CCP was beginning to use. However, based on certain things I saw, I did not believe that the over all economy was as strong as was touted. We saw lots of half finished large construction projects with absolutely no work being conducted on site. I noticed this everywhere we went.
Since we were there, it is my understanding that the CCP has gotten more aggressive. It has been noted that China has become much more militarily aggressive over the last five years.
Is China some kind of Hell on Earth? I think the vast majority of the people in China go about their every day lives, but if I was Tibetan I would probably think it is.
Not being worse off than the people in Hong Kong right now would NOT be a great thing.
Nothing good, that's for sure.
Very rich people from Hong Kong have been leaving Hong Kong for the past 25 years. In the private school my son attended when he was 11 or 12 he made friends with a classmate who was the son of one of those immigrants. I had to go pick him up once at his friend's home. You could have fit my whole house in their entrance hall. IMO their fear was unfounded. There are mainland Chinese billionaires, maybe even more than in America, so what some fail to realize is that it is possible to be as capatalistic in China as it is in America.
I don't believe that the CPC or the Hong Kong government got involved in the vast majority of arrests you described until the ultra-destructive riots that took place a while ago, you know, the ones that the American media and American government resolutions supporting the rioters encouraged. What a waste - what was going to happen to the form of government was INEVITABLE, and those riots were not going to do anything but get the rioters incarcerated. They were not peaceful protests, they were destructive of private and public property - I watched them happening on TV and it was no movie.
If you're upset about people who break the local laws being incarcerated, you're living in the country with the record rate for it.
What you didn't say is that, and it is a fact, that the people you saw were as happy as people are in any western country. As tor the pollution, I was in Beijing 6 years ago and my wife and I bought masks before we went but I guess I was lucky because it wasn't as bad as it was reputed to be. Yes, some big cities have polluted air, although it's pretty clear where I am now.. It's interesting to consider that so many Chinese people possessed masks and were used to wearing them that there was no resistance to wearing them to help the incredible job the Chinese people have done in maintaining very low numbers of infections compared to other nations. They did not consider wearing a mask to be "contrary to their rights and freedoms".
I understand that the many unoccupied buildings was caused by the government keeping the huge workforce busy and earning a living. However, due to moving remote and poor populations into municipalities with more and better amenities in order to eradicate abject poverty has found more occupiers for those buidings.
I guess that when it comes to Tibet it depends on the viewpoint of those who are reporting what life is like there. I see one side of the story being told by and about those who are living there and I guess you see the side being told by those who have been deposed from power there.
Is there even the slightest possibility in the way you are treated as a Canadian citizen is markedly different than some Americans would be? And I mean that question in a respectful way. I have been told that I would have trouble getting a travel visa to go to China because I am retired US military and held certain higher security clearances. And if I did, the security apparatus of the CCP would go out of their way to make me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I had a aquaintence who was a US Consulate military attache in New Zealand tell me that. I have no way of knowing how accurate that was but I really did not want to find out.
I go back to the time when American backpackers abroad would sew Canadian flags on their backpacks - obviously for a reason. However, up until Pelosi's stupid selfish provocative irresponsible unjustified act, criticized by many around the world including the head of the United Nations, Americans during my living here have not been treated any differently than Canadians, we were equally respected, even liked. However, that woman has succeeded in strengthening the resolve of the Chinese people in supporting their CPC government and creating a now more negative attitude towards Americans, and judging from the comments I've seen on another article on NT despising China and the Chinese I would say that it's a good thing those NT members don't have eyes in the back of their heads to see what's happening where THEY are before they criticize others.
I understand that even the Taiwanese did not want her to visit but had to welcome her anyway. It has had its repercussians that have already caused them problems, not even taking into consideration the present Chinese military exercises surrounding Taiwan. She did not do the Taiwanese any favour whatsoever. She did it for her own and the Democrats' benefit alone - as I've said elsewhere it is her swan song, and she may have made it the Democrats' swan song as well.
Napoleon once said "Let China sleep, or a tiger will be awakened". China does not knee jerk, and I would guess that what China will do will not be something that will boomerang on it, but something that will benefit China while making things worse for America.
Yes, there are bigots everywhere.
Americans during my living here have not been treated any differently than Canadians, we were equally respected, even liked.
That's not what you said before. But I guess the political point you were trying to make was different then.
However, that woman has succeeded in strengthening the resolve of the Chinese people in supporting their CPC government
Brought to you by China Daily.
In the real world:
Many users mocked the government for not taking military action to stop Nancy Pelosi’s Taiwan trip, saying it hadn’t lived up to its tough rhetoric.
The CCP has pushing bellicose rhetoric on its population to distract from its many domestic protests and covid related issues. And now they look weak.
not a good look.
I understand that even the Taiwanese did not want her to visit but had to welcome her anywa
Despite what China Daily is told to report, " Ms. Pelosi was generally welcomed with enthusiasm in Taiwan. Even before her plane landed at Taipei airport on Tuesday, the island's tallest skyscraper, Taipei 101, displayed bright letters of support for the trip – "Welcome to Taiwan, Speaker Pelosi." "Thank you, friend of democracy," the messages proclaimed in Mandarin, the main language, and English."
No doubt as to why: : I n 2020, the Pew Research Center indicated that 68% of Taiwanese had a good opinion of the United States, compared to just 35% for the People's Republic of China.
Bullys like China aren't popular.
Of course I'm aware that the Chinese media and the Western media have totally differing tales to tell and reasons for doing so. But I also get the pulse of the people of China by living among them.
You stated above that many people mocked the CPC for not stopping Pelosi with military action. In keeping with your opinion about China, are all those people now locked up or "disappeared"? Buzz wants to know. If you can't answer that, maybe the CPC is not so draconian as you believe.
Actually, you're right. Not too long ago America did or said something that was considered insulting or damaging here, I've forgotten what it was, and I do recall saying at the time that I did not want to be mistaken for an American.
The charges certainly could be trumped up, but I doubt it. Americans travel to Russia every day - including semi-famous ones. Trade and tourism wouldn’t thrive if Russia made a habit of this kind of thing. Nobody (including the people who love her) seems to be saying that she couldn’t have done the thing she is accused of.
I have no doubt, though, that once Russia realized who they had caught, they sought to make the most of the opportunity.
She pleaded guilty.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
She tried to play a stupid game. You play stupid games you win stupid prizes. Looks like hers maybe 10 years in a Russian prison and I don't care.
Britney Griner has been playing basketball in Russia for 7 years. Her mistake was naively thinking she would be treated with respect by Russian authorities because she was a professional athlete playing for a Russian team. Going there for 7 years with no problem may have caused her to get careless.
“Britney Griner has been playing basketball in Russia for 7 years…”
If only American women ball players were compensated as well as their male counterparts stateside.
If only the women ball players brought in more money.
“If only the women ball players brought in more money.”
Ah, so if Lebron, or Kyrie, or pick a name were detained, would this even be a conversation?
Quite the misogynist, tex.
Well, well, well, isn't THAT comment full of shit!
Ah, so purely a capitalist.
Easier to understand, more difficult to defend.
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I assume Russia’s criminal justice system is corrupt and it’s easy enough to determine that the laws of many other countries are harsh.
So I hate to see Griner going through so much over something that wouldn’t even warrant jail time in America. Nevertheless, people stupidly travel with things they shouldn’t have every day. Sometimes the consequences of that carelessness can be severe.
The solution kind of sucks. I’m not a fan of the way we trade genuinely dangerous criminals for otherwise good Americans caught in a moment of benign stupidity. My heart goes out to my fellow citizens, but they did a dumb thing and they should have known better; and someone may be victimized in the future by the person we trade for them.
It’s not a good situation. I like my freedom, but my conscience would not be comfortable about letting a terrorist (or someone similar) go free because of my mistake.
She is not in America. Russia has different laws and different punishments for breaking those laws.
So, what, then? I can’t feel a little bit bad for her?
She's not in the US. Different country, different laws. It's not like this is her first time there.
Yeah, I get that. Like I asked arkpdx: is that supposed to mean I can’t have any compassion for her?
you can have all the compassion you want. I have none for her. She fucked up, plain and simple.
So how long should she be in jail for her “crime?” Another year? 10 years? Life? Maybe they should just execute her?
Is there any point where you look at the situation and feel like the government might be unfairly heavy-handed in their treatment of her?
The length of her sentence is all dependent on local laws. I or you have any say in it.
Not in this situation. She broke the law. Plain and simple. One way to avoid all of this is to abide by the laws of the country you are visiting. It's not that hard.
Whatever is a customary sentence in Russia for other people who break that law.
When they start to deviate from the normal enforcement that they normally do in their country.
So you have no feeling about the moral fairness or cruelty of punishments? Should we remove the 8th Amendment from our Constitution?
“Plain and simple.”
Do you not see the danger in this answer? You applaud the actions of an avowed enemy in their application of law and order.
Is that same mind set applicable to any jurisdiction, foreign or domestic? Your god help us if the answer is yes.
Nothing is or should be ‘plain and simple.’
Stoning is customary in some places. You ok with that? How about if she is convicted of witchcraft? OK with burning her?
Is that how you felt about Otto Warmbier? Just wondering.
What if the sentence in Russia for possession of a small amount of marijuana was death by firing squad? Would that be ok because they are just enforcing their usual sentence?
Within reason , we have to apply our standards for right and wrong, not that of a backward country that over punishes minor infractions.
Trumpster nonsense.
Why should it not be? There have been several foreign citizens condemn to death in more than a few countries for drug possession.
Griner had possession of .07 grams of cannabis and in Russia this is the penalty for that amount of cannabis.
Is it?
Exactly how does "release a convicted arms dealer" align with our standards for right and wrong?
Ms. Griner went to a country with a Level 4 Travel Advisory – Do Not Travel – from the US State Dept. Level 4 means "The Department of State advises that U.S. citizens not travel to the country or leave as soon as it is safe to do so."
She went anyway.
Not only did she go, she attempted to smuggle in an illegal substance.
Now....if I went to a country on the Do Not Travel list with drugs and got arrested, you would never in a million years suggest we trade a convicted arms dealer for my stupid ass. And you would be right.
Why should she be different?
Good to know. Thanks.
If she receives a much harsher sentence than Russian citizens get, then it's certainly appropriate for the State Dept to get involved. Frankly, I don't object to the US Govt petitioning on her behalf under whatever conditions they deem appropriate, as long as it's what they do for all US citizens in that situation.
I do object to releasing an arms dealer. I do object to making special arrangements for her that we wouldn't make for you or me simply because she's a liberal celebrity. That's bullshit.
How about a 'Blue Dog'' dem or a moderate dem? What about a far-right republican?
How about Paul Whelan, should we drop him as well?
How about Trevor Reed we did a prisoner swap for him and this is the criminal Konstantin Yaroshenko, a Russian smuggler convicted of conspiring to import cocaine?
That's my point. Neither their politics nor their celebrity should matter. I struggle to imagine a scenario where Biden would trade a major criminal for somebody like Ted Nugent or Stephen Baldwin.
They are considering special treatment for Griner because 1) she's famous (sort of) and 2) she's popular with the hard left wing of the Democratic Party.
That's the kind of bullshit we would have seen from Trump.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), both were accused of spying and the govt does not believe/admit they are guilty.
If we've sent somebody to a foreign country as a spy and they got caught, then yeah, I think we make whatever unpalatable bargain we need to in order to get them back. We owe that to them as part of their service. That would absolutely be true if Brittney Griner were the spy, BTW.
Since neither one of the two is imprisoned in Russia so speculation about them or Biden is useless.
Speculation on your part or do you have proof that that is true?
Yes, they were. The US has to classify a person wrongfully detained. That designation prompts the US government to actively work on negotiations to secure their release as part of the efforts by the State Department Special Envoy for Hostage Affairs.
It seems that this was done in Griner, Reed, and Whelan's cases. Is this partisan politics, I don't believe it is.
There are currently two other Americans, one was sentenced to 14 years of hard labor and he has not been classified as wrongfully detained, his case does indicate that he was wrongfully detained.
The determination by the State Department as wrongfully detained is the trigger.
The US itself is one of the biggest arms dealers in the world. Hell ordinary US citizens are arms dealers selling guns back and forth...
hoo rah…
For some reason, you just reminded me of the movie "Midnight Express".
No. You seem to forget that American teen-ager Michael Fay suffered four lashes with a rattan cane across his bare buttocks for vandalism.
Do you remember Otto Warmbier? He was imprisoned in North Korea for taking a poster.
Or how about Andrew Tahmooressi a former US Marine who was imprisoned in Mexico after crossing the Mexican border with loaded guns. All he did was make a wrong turn.
I'm not going to get myself worked up over some basketball player illegally transporting drugs.
An "avowed enemy" that the United States has been working with for decades. You remember the International Space Station? Yeah, that laboratory that's been orbiting the earth since 1998? it's Russian. It's been resupplied by both the US and Russia. In my 26 years in the US Army, I've been assigned to units that have trained with the Russian military on several occasions. Try again.
Actually it is. If you visit a country, you abide by their laws. It is that "plain and simple". Just because YOU fail to realize that isn't really my problem.
Wonder all you want. Warmbier was put in jail for doing something he shouldn't have been doing, you know, against North Korea law.
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Lol .... fascinating ......
I remember all of those injustices. At no point have I said those things were ok and what is happening to Griner - only - is not.
At least I am willing to call it injustice when I see it. You “remember” those people, but you still don’t seem have any sympathy for any of them.
No. He was put in jail, tortured, and beaten to death for something extremely petty (allegedly). But apparently, you’re okay with it because it’s “the law” in that place.
"No. He was put in jail, tortured, and beaten to death for something extremely petty. But apparently, you’re okay with it because it’s “the law” in that place."
It was horrific what they did to that man. Yet there are those who excuse it.
LMAO. So in your mind, breaking a law of a foreign country is an "injustice" when they are caught and put on trial. Do the world a favor and stay home.
Different countries different laws. US law stops at our borders. Maybe you'll get lucky and there will be a SOFA or some semblance thereof in place you can take advantage of but don't hold your breath.
I didn’t say anything like that. Apparently you need to misrepresent my views to justify your endorsement of cruelty.
Just because something is a law, that doesn’t make it right. The holocaust was legal, too. People were shot for trying to escape East Germany. All nice and legal. Guess you endorse that, too? We have yet to see any examples of law in this conversation that you are willing to characterize as wrong.
That is how I understand your statement. I didn't misrepresent anything.
That's one hell of a [removed] stretch. Has absolutely nothing to do with somebody breaking a law and put on trial for breaking that law but somehow in your [removed] brain it does I guess.
Legally.
Given how lax I'm guessing you think gun laws are in the US, how bad do you have to be to go to prison as a gun smuggler?
You do know that the eighth amendment does apply in Russia right. Nothing else in the US Constitution apply in Russia or any other country for that matter.
Tell you what. When you become north Korea's dear leader you can change those laws. Until then what you or I think about those laws is irrelavent.
So missed my point completely.
Maybe the US government just doesn't like the competition...
What happened to the moral compass of Americans? You have zero opinion on the way other governments treat people.
I find it interesting - yet sad - because I bet the same people who dismiss Russian cruelty and corruption with “that’s the law” also complain about legal American things like gay rights, women’s rights, trans rights, immigrant rights, and so on. I bet these same people complain that criminals “get off” on “technicalities.” (Those technicalities being things like the 4th and 5th Amendments.)
How come these people don’t shrug obediently and say “welp! That’s the law!” when it’s happening in America?
I'm sure it has not escaped your notice that Americans have control over the laws in America. We do not have any control over the laws in foreign countries.
I'm sure it has also not escaped your notice that the details of "gay rights" or "trans rights" or even "women's rights" are not black and white absolutes and that they attract considerable disagreement and debate among Americans as we work through what structure of laws we control that will represent the best solution for everyone.
With regard the the "moral compass" issue at hand, Ms. Griner ignored US Govt advice by traveling to a country on the State Dept's "do not travel" list. Then ... as if that weren't enough... she attempted to smuggle drugs into a country infamous for its intolerance and harsh treatment of people they judge to be criminals.
It's certainly not difficult to understand how people are not enthusiastic about taking extreme measures to rescue her from her own stubbornness and stupidity.
I also notice that Russians have no control over the laws in Russia, nor oversight as to their enforcement. That’s a big reason why I don’t have much respect for those laws, and none at all for the government that enforces them.
I have said it was dumb and/or negligent at least to have her vaping supplies in her bag. Nowhere have I said she should be allowed to bring her cannabis into Russia without consequence. What I have said is that the reaction and punishment (she was sentenced today to 9 years in prison) are way beyond what is fair and reasonable.
I would also suggest that characterizing what happened as “drug smuggling” is a silly attempt to inflate the gravity of this situation and needlessly demonize Griner.
Regardless, it seems a bit odd to be irritated with Americans who accept their inability to change the actions of a famously corrupt foreign country enforcing their own laws.
I have not suggested that you did. None of that changes the fact upon which we agree.... she did this to herself.
That may be. Clearly the Russian judge has a different opinion. But she took herself outside US control, so our definitions of "fair" and/or "reasonable" are without consequence.
What else would you call it?
Harmless accident. Negligence. Irresponsible. Stupid mistake. Victimless crime. Any of those.
Certainly nothing I would destroy a person’s life over by imprisoning them for 9 years.
You are not a Russian lawmaker judge or even citizen for that matter. What you think of Russian law is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what? Whether or not I have the right to opine on the subject?
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do." was written by St. Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, and he lived in the fourth century AD. He wrote this proverb in 387 AD.
For those who are incapable of understanding what it means...
The phrase means that ‘when you are living in, or visiting, a community of people, you should follow the laws and customs of that community’.
IMO it doesn't mean you have to do everything they do, but to be really careful to NOT do the things that they are not allowed to do.
Seems that it's been around long enough for people to understand what it means, and why and how important it is to follow that advice.
I think it's kind of egotistical to think that the laws and mores and privileges that govern your behaviour are required to be practised by the rest of the world.
LOL. If a Canadian was caught at the American border with exactly what Griner had, it damn well would have been called "drug smuggling" by the Americans. Your comments are so ridiculous they could only be called trolling.
My info on what happens to drug smugglers in china is a couple decades old , but last i knew , they had a very simple and inexpensive method to deter the practice , a single pistol shot to the head .
imagine if that was the practice in this country ....
I imagine you would no longer have the world's highest rate of incarceration.
I believe you're right about the penalty back then, maybe even now, which may be why drug use doesn't seem to be a problem here.
Fine. None of that is mutually exclusive with drug smuggling.
I agree. And I certainly have no problem with the president intervening on her behalf.
But I do not support releasing a convicted arms dealer to bail her out of a situation she put herself into because she wouldn't listen.
for once, in quite a while, common ground
Is it necessary to be that rude?
I don’t either.
Actually, I apologize. I looked back over your comments and realize I must have been thinking about someone else. I could be one of the last persons here who should criticize a person for trying to be a lawyer making excuses for a crimimal.
Griner, who plays for the Phoenix Mercury in the United States and UMMC Ekaterinburg in Russia, has pleaded guilty to carrying 0.702 grams of cannabis oil in her luggage when she was arrested at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport a week before Russia's Feb. 24 invasion of Ukraine. Jul 15, 2022
She had a vape pen in her luggage...
That just might mitigate some of the suppositions here.
Still illegal in Russia either way
That's all?
Seems that some on here don't think that we should try to get Griner out of prison so the next question is what about Paul Whelan, should we let him serve 20 years or not?
Most conservatives are just falling back on the "Who cares about her fate because she broke the law in another country". I wonder if they feel the same about the many countries where Christians have been arrested, prosecuted and jailed for handing out Christian leaflets or giving out bibles? They broke the law so why should anyone care about them, right? No need to try and go get them out of prison, right? No reason to criticize the countries in question for laws that are excessive or extreme, right?
Sorry DP, but I don't agree with proselyizing ANYWHERE, whether it's in a country that makes it an offence, or where it's allowed. If a nation wants to make it an offence I know it has its reasons for doing so, and I agree with that nation. My religion does NOT proselytize, and in fact does not make it easy to convert to it.
In my lifetime I've spent time in about 16 or 17 countries and I've stayed out of trouble not just because of "When in Rome..." but because I never did what was NOT allowed to be done there.
Same here. I visited or served in about 10 different countries in my 20 year Naval career. I always made a point as much as possible to learn beforehand what was and was not allowed. I cared too much about my career and family not to. I knew others who were not as careful and paid the price.
Nyota Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) passed away this past weekend, but there has been no mention of her here. Why?
I guess everybody forgot that there is already an American teacher serving time in Russian prison for the same thing.
The Biden Administration did nothing for Mr. Fogel (a teacher), why should it be expected that they do something for a basketball player?
We all have to remember that this is the same administration that abandoned US Citizens in Afghanistan when Biden made the call.
Is Mr Fogel gay and black? Those are two of the things liberals favor. The only way Griner could be more attractive for the left is if she were also trans.
There is another woman held for the last two years in Russia on a domestic abuse charge and the Biden admin has done nothing for her either.
It is sad that something as irrelevant as that is the qualifier that puts her above others.
9 years it is.