Tis the Season for Bashing Christian Celebration of Christmas
Time for the holiday tradition of rehashing the history of the Christmas holiday. We'll hear how Christmas is really about pagan celebration of the winter solstice, Yule celebrations, Egyptian and Roman gods, and how modern celebration of the Christmas holiday has nothing to do with theology.
So, the underlying message is that secular society has appropriated the Christmas holiday. And the secular celebration of the holiday involves mass consumption, money, and meaningless symbolism. The secular Christmas holiday has become an orgy of greed and selfishness.
We are to believe that somehow the secularization of the Christmas holiday is because the Christian religion is evil? Naturally there's no profit in religious observation of the holiday and that's just wrong.
What, then, are we really celebrating this Christmas holiday?
Merry Christmas!
Thanks for doing this. I was going to seed an article on the latest tactic in the secular progressives war on Christmas, burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees. You have it covered.
The Fox tree was burned by a homeless mentally unstable man.
One instance of someone 'burning or otherwise sabotaging or destroying Christmas trees'
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It's just a Yule tree.
This is the why there is a war on Christmas, the right wing insisting that there is one when there isn't. Many know no other thing than playing the victim.
It was also a fake tree and coming from Fox News, is anyone surprised?
It wasn’t the only tree attacked. At 5 pm eastern time Fox News will broadcast the lighting of the new bigger and better one with even more lights.
Attacked? LOL! Then prove which other trees were 'attacked'!
While others exist to simply blame the victims in the war against against Christmas
There is no war on Christmas, never was, it was, (and is), nothing more than a fake narrative designed to create a place for people to claim victimhood. That's it, end of story.
It must be one of those Xmas stories. Like How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. That was a declaration by the pope that moved the celebration to coincide with the traditional pagan celebration of Yule.
Happy Holidays!
Happy Holidays to you, too!
Merry Christmas Nerm.
Merry Christmas! Enjoy the holidays however you celebrate them.
Merry Christmas or in my native tongue, Vesel'e Vianoce
Merry Christmas to you, too!
Happy holidays
Happy Holidays! Hope the holidays are safe and happy for you and yours.
Thank you, and to you as well.
Buon Natale
Buon Natale! Have a blessed holiday.
Happy Holidays.
Happy Holidays to you, too.
Happy rebranded Pagan holidays to you and yours.
Happy Holidays! Pagan, too.
Bain taitneamh as an bhféile
May your feast be plentiful and your cares be light.
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the festival of hypocrites...
...honoring the birth day of a man whose teachings are ignored the other 364 days of the year.
Yes, the 'christians' are forever put upon. And bashed. And repressed.
Maybe non-Christians can stop insulting Christians to begin with.
That would be a good start!
Maybe Christians can stop insulting Non-Christians to begin with.
That would be a good start!
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How are non-Christians insulted by Christians?
This whole article is an insult to pagans. By insinuating that stating what Yule is and how some the Pagan traditions were inserted into Christmas we are somehow "bashing" Christians is an insult. Do we not have the same right as Christians to espouse our beliefs on this forum? By stating the truth of some of the Christmas traditions is not "bashing" your Christmas.
And HOW are non-Christians insulting Christians? By stating the truth? What a mockery of the whole season you have made with this article.
Oh...please.
Call me paranoid but I think his article is a counter to my seed about the origins of Xmas
That was my first impression too.
You will have to ask Mr. Frost that, as it was his quote.
That is why I responded when I usually just skip over this tripe. I just wanted to tell him his article was an insult to Pagans that tell of their beliefs. I guess we are supposed to remain mute until his holiday is over.
So it's not just paranoia
The Christians know they co-opted Pagan beliefs and traditions (well, the Church does) but they keep telling themselves they are morally superior to you because...JESUS!
Who was Jewish.
Obviously, "Merry Christmas" doesn't bother me in the least and I am a Deist, but, there are some people who don't care for it and feel insulted.
Remember, freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion regardless of the religion in question.
Put it another way.. How do you think an Evangelical would feel if someone said, "allah 'akbar" to them? My guess is they would be pissed off.
Merry Christmas doesn't bother me, but I try to remember who believes in what and give my greetings accordingly
Exactly, same here.
I wish people Merry Christmas all the time in response to them wishing same to me. If someone wished me Happy Hanukah (or any other similar greeting), I would respond in kind without hesitation (if I recognized the holiday).
So if I say to you, '' Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad" you will respond in kind. No copy and paste it must be vocal with the proper inflections. Just to give you a head start it's in the Ojibwe double vowel system versus the single vowel system.
How about a "back at ya"?
It's Christ Mass. Not Yule. Not pagan. If you want to celebrate Yule, then by all means go ahead. Christ Mass is not Hanukah, either. That doesn't stop the celebration of Hanukah.
But claiming that the history of Christ Mass is not Christian is a factual flight of fancy. Yes, Christians have incorporated cultural traditions into the holiday (which includes pagan cultural traditions) but Christ Mass is most definitely Christian.
The truth is there would not be Christ Mass without Christians.
Note:
But for you, I would give it a shot.
Another ticket, another blog. I won't be silenced.
And the discussion is better, too.
Oops, I thought I did ask Mr. Frost. Sorry 'bout that.
Nope, that isn't going to work, Trout.
Who is trying to silence you?????????????????????????????
No problem!
There would also be a hell of a lot more Pagans and Pagan belief systems without Christians.
Well then - how about you guys celebrate your day ON THAT day only instead of taking up 6 months proceeding it.
I do celebrate Yule & Christmas. It is not Christ Mass - it is Christmas. Spell it right.
The truth is that you would prefer it if we (all non-christians) would just shut the fuck up any time NEAR December. THAT is what is insulting.
As I stated earlier - your whole article makes a mockery of the holiday season of joy and peace on earth good will towards men (IT DOES NOT SAY CHRISTAINS). BTW - Jesus was a Jew.
I call them the small c 'christians'. They're CINOs
I didn't even read your comment. Obviously it had nothing to do with the topic or it was a comment filled with whining. Whatev. If you're going to comment on my seeds be sure it's on topic and not bashing the article or me
Damn! You're a tough task master
Christians forced conversion on Pagans in Europe and the Americas
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They seem to forget, The Doctrine of Discovery and the Papal Bull, ''"Inter Caetera."
The same could be said to the "Christmas" haters out there
Sure but are there really all that many Christmas 'haters'?
Now you have. The deleted comment became the blog. See how that works?
Like many things today, not many, but that doesn't stop them from trying to drive the narrative for those who aren't.
So your comment was off topic and whining. I'm glad dev deleted it
There also aren't many Christmas supporters that are hating on the Christmas haters but they are still out there.
And like their counterparts they are just as loud and just a whiny.
Dev carpet bomb deletes anything he doesn't like which is completely counterproductive to any uncensored conversation.
Great if you want an echo chamber though.
And now my comment is the topic. But, then, you are here, too, to comment on what you didn't see.
You did, and I answered your question.
Good for you. See how that works?
Don't complain to me.
Not a complaint, it's a fact. I'm glad you got to read it before it gets removed.
You know it's true.
But freedom of religion and freedom from religion is not freedom to disparage religion or insult those who practice religion.
That doesn't explain how non-Christians are insulted by Christians?
Indubitably.
does create that effect when comments are deleted!
If that is your complaint you should speak to a certain RW that does it on a regular basis.
… and thus do not really matter.
Hey, if they should go per the rules so be it but that is not what happens in some groups and why i don't like that rule. Sure it keeps the peace more but only allows groups to censor their group so heavily they become echo chambers.
Not my idea of a uncensored discussion forum but to each their own i guess.
My bad .... i'll stop with the meta now ....
Did a RW delete the comment in question?
Or is this more whataboutism?
I include everyone who does it but if i know who you are talking about.
It's not even close to the same thing most of the time.
Not even close.
Lol ... tell that to this seed.
Maybe so. But there wouldn't be Christmas without Christians. Were the pagan holidays about brotherly love and fellowship?
The truth is that Christians would prefer not be be disparaged anytime someone feels threatened by a plastic baby Jesus.
As the history points out, public displays of Yule trees is based upon religious celebrations, too. So, why aren't Yule trees banned from public facilities and public property?
Yes, Jesus was a Jew. But Jesus was also the first Christian. That's something worth celebrating, don't you think? Merry Christmas!
You noticed it too!
There is so much wrong with your reply.
Yule was a celebration of the lengthening of the days. A celebration of the sun's return and the rebirth of the the land. It was more about survival then kinship. Maybe read a little on something other than YOUR religion.
Where do you see any Yule trees? As far as I know they are all labeled CHRISTMAS trees and I would love you to show me any PUBLIC place that speaks of Yule trees. As far as the plastic baby - I could give 2 fucks - put it wherever you want - BUT if you want to follow the Constitution you can't put it on public property because that is supported by more than Christian people.
Jesus was NOT the first Christian since Christians are the FOLLOWERS of Christ as any GOOD Christian knows. He was a Jew when he was born and he was a Jew when he died.
When someone comes into a seed merely to disrupt it or troll then they deserve to have their comments deleted.
Nerm...you really should do some more reading about your religion
No argument.
Is it your contention that's all that is being done in this case?
Yes
I disagree, vociferously.
The seed seems to be a lot of whining and victimization. Anyone can complain about anything, that does not make it significant (or even true).
I'll try again.. Do you think a Muslim, Buddhist or Atheist or [insert not Christian religion here] wants to hear, "Merry Christmas"?
No.
That's how. Personally, I don't care, I say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays all the time. If I see someone that is clearly not a Christian, I usually just say Happy Holidays in an effort to not blatantly offend someone. I may not always be 100% spot on, but I am who I am and I will never apologize for it.
In other words, I don't try to be an offensive asshole, but I am sure I come off that way from time to time to people who do not share my religious beliefs around the holidays. Hoc est quod est
That's what the first amendment is for.
True, opinions do vary and in the end are only as meaningful one is willing to make them.
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Sounds like that would be a good article or blog. Post it and I'll read it. There seems to be a receptive audience here that read and discuss Christmas season celebrations.
" The “Yule tree,”, or Christmas tree , is a decorated tree, usually an evergreen conifer species, such as pine, fir, cedar, juniper, or spruce. The tradition has origins with ancient civilizations in the middle east, Asia, and Europe. Our modern custom flourished in Germany and spread to other European nations and North America in the 19th century. The Yule tree's brightly colored decorations and lights symbolized stellar objects, spirits of those who died, religious events and figures, and provided edible treats."
A Christmas tree is topped with the Christmas Star (the star of Bethlehem) or an angel. A Yule tree is not.
This is a Yule tree:
This is a Christmas tree: Notice the Christmas tree has been secularized with presents (the season to buy). We are socially conditioned to look at the bottom of the tree before looking at the top of the tree. But the top of the tree is why the holiday is called Christmas and not Yule.
Jesus followed the teachings of Christ. But Jesus did not become Christ until he was killed, resurrected, and ascended. Jesus believed in himself as Christ before he became Christ; Jesus was the first Christian.
There are several early Christians mentioned in the scriptures who were Christian before Jesus was killed. But Jesus was the first Christian.
Check the front page. Her blog has been up for days.
Modification of the appropriation.
I missed it. Thank you for pointing out Veronica's blog. It was a good read.
That is bullshit and you know it - there was NO Christ before Jesus so there was NO teachings of Christ. Jesus followed the teachings of his Faith which was the Hebrew faith. Your shit is getting deep.
Christian is not a birthright. Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. No one is born a Christian.
Even Jesus had to choose to be Christian. Jesus chose to preach and teach things that challenged Jewish authority. Jesus could have chosen to flee Jerusalem and Jewish authority but instead chose to remain. Jesus was offered opportunities to recant; Jesus chose not to.
Jesus chose to be baptized. Baptism is not a ritual cleansing of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith. Jesus chose to be an evangelical minister which was not part of Jewish tradition or Hebrew faith. Jesus chose to change the meaning of the temple and synagogue. Jesus chose to teach that faith was more important than law, prayer, ritual, or sacrificial offering.
Before telling someone they're spewing bullshit, you better have your shit straight. Yes, Jesus was born a Jew. But no one is born Christian; everyone is born something else.
Jesus lived and died a Jew.
That means Hannakuh is a more appropriate celebration than xmas.
ABSOLUTELY
The "Last Supper" was a PASSOVER SEDER, and I don't think that's a Christian ceremony.
IMO, if Christians want to emulate Jesus, they should all convert to Judaism and pooh pooh the fables they created, like Jews returning to Israel and dying at the end of times. I just think they're afraid of being circumcised, not just the knife, but that it will end their "manhood". LOL
Hey Dulay, are you dreaming of being Spiderman?
You speak the facts Buzz.
I can't help but wonder why anyone would even try to make those claims in 3.1.73 while still insisting that their beliefs are based on scripture.
No. I am envisioning catching the ignorant in my web of facts.
And?
Christian is not an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage. And being Christian does not require giving up traditions; those traditions are brought into Christianity by people who become Christian. That's why the celebration of Christmas includes a diverse and inclusive mix of traditions.
How is inclusion supposed to work? Being Christian doesn't mean people cannot bring their traditions of Passover and Hanukkah into Christian celebrations. Becoming Christian does not require a Jew to stop being a Jew.
It sure as fuck DOES Nerm.
Being a Jew IS 'an ethnicity, race, national creed, or cultural heritage' Nerm.
Based on the scriptures, Jesus was born, lived and died a Jew. PERIOD. Full stop.
All of that gum flapping in your comment is pure fantasy.
That's nuts .... so i'm a Christian only? Not Caucasian, not American of Slavic/English descent but just a Christian by creed?
That's just fuckin crazy progressive talk.
Nothing more.
No, that's liberal talk. Exclusion is a regressive notion, not a progressive notion. And the argument is based upon liberal exclusion; a Jew can only be a Jew.
Liberals don't seem to understand what diversity and inclusion really means. Liberals aren't progressive.
I beg to differ but really don't feel like getting into the nuances of that argument today.
From a religious standpoint, yes, it does. Judaism does not recognize Jesus as divine.
Strawman and obtuse.
Obtuse.
True and Nerm's whole argument is from a religious standpoint.
Well almost 900 comments and we have a winner. Dumbest statement in the lot
and that's saying something since you deny Christian history and muddle your religious beliefs with
political slurs and imaginary wars.
What a waste.
Show me where in the Judaic Messianic prophecies that fulfillment of the prophecy will mean that Jews will no longer be Jews.
According to the Messianic prophecies the Son of God will be a Jew. Of course Jesus was a Jew. The Messiah cannot be anything other than a Jew. Accepting that Jesus, a Jew, fulfills the Jewish prophecies means Jews give up being Jews?
With almost 900 comments, some are still attempting to make obtuse arguments. And are wasting other's time with their illogical arguments.
Well, one still is.
Twisted nonsense because accepting Jesus is not going to happen
and is theologically incompatible with Judaism.
What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning
Have a good holiday pilgrim.
Show me where anyone said it does.
BTFW, I don't the premise of your posit. What most Christians call as 'Judaic Messianic prophecies' have NOTHING to do with Judaism.
You claimed:
That's bullshit.
Then you ask:
Where the fuck did you get that from Nerm?
While YOU have every right to accept Jesus as whatever the fuck you want to, the Jews have even more of a right to state that Jesus did NOT fulfill the biblical requirements of the Messiah.
The twelve apostles were Jews. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a Jew. Joseph was a Jew. Lazarus was a Jew. Mary Magdalene was a Jew.
St. Peter is considered the first Pope of the Catholic Church. St. Peter was a Jew who followed Jesus as a disciple. The first Pope of the Catholic Church was a Jew. Let that sink in.
No need Nerm. I know the bible, I've read 4 versions, a couple multiple times.
Oh and BTFW, your comment is non-responsive to mine. Merely blathering whatever the fuck you want doesn't count as furthering the discussion.
I think I'm better qualified to deny that statement than you are to say it. If you are saying that being a Jew because one's mother was Jewish that may be a matter of ancestry only, But you are speaking theologically, because you speak of "becoming Christian", and I can tell you that once a Jew accepts Jesus as the "saviour" or divine, or the "son of God" or the Messiah, then they are no longer of the Jewish faith. Jews may well accept Jesus as having been a rabbi or a prophet, but only a human being. "Jews for Jesus" are Christians, not Jews, or there could even be some who were at one time Jews among them, a cult with the purpose of converting naive or disenchanted Jews into becoming Christians.
What trivia point do you think you are making that proves anything?
The first "pope" and the 5th were both Jews. Who cares?
Followers of Christ were simply "of the way" for a hundred years
before Ignatius of Antioch ( a non Jewish city ) called them Christians in a letter.
The people of "the way" liked it.
Let that sink in.
Stop taking what you think you know and molding it to your weak preconceived beliefs about Judaism.
It's embarrassing to watch.
Nah, but opinions do vary.
Facts don't.
True, so let me know when you actually have some real ones
There are plenty examples right here in this seed.
BTFW, your comment about 'the triggered' is the height of irony.
Lol, nope .... not even close but keep gaslighting .......
Did my comment cause you distress Sparty? Questioning your perceptions, are you?
Lol ..... no and no but even farther away than before ..... this is just getting boring now ....
So, what happens to Jews when the messianic prophecies are fulfilled in an acceptable manner?
Look, we know that all of the first Christians were Jews; Christianity began in Israel. The early Christians were an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism. And we can surmise that early Christianity represented a reformed Judaism that threatened the religious hierarchy and power structure of Judaism controlled by the Sadducees and Pharisees sects. Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion.
The name Christian and the roots of today's Christian religion can be traced to Antioch; a Greek city located in today's Turkey. Antioch became the center of 1st century Christianity. And in Antioch, Christians made the reformed Judaism of the apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism an inclusive religion; a religion for gentiles as well as for Jews. One true God for all people. Christians liberated the God of Abraham from being exclusively a God of the Jews.
It wasn't Christians who excluded the Jews. All the first Christians were Jews. It was the Jews who excluded Christians. And Christians were excluded to maintain political power and control over the Temple which was destroyed anyway. No doubt the Jewish leaders of that time tried to blame Christians for destruction of the Temple. Christians have been blamed for the political corruption of many monarchs and church/state bureaucracies.
Christianity began as a strictly Jewish religion. Judaism in the time of Jesus had become corrupt and there was a struggle within the elite for control of the Temple which represented control over society. Jesus led an apocalyptic messianic sect of Judaism that interpreted Judaism to reform both the religious and secular power of the Temple controlled by the elite.
Here's the concise Christianity for Dummies crib notes. This is really the apocalyptic messianic message Jesus was preaching.
We are born sinners; we are predisposed to sin. We must choose to do good. Life is a struggle between good and evil. Our death is our own personal apocalypse. At the apocalypse, the Messiah will not judge us on our sins but will judge us on our struggle between good and evil. Good will triumph in the struggle between good and evil.
Yep, i have that faith as well. A strong faith.
So your claim of gaslighting was bullshit. Got ya.
Here's the concise definitions for dummies crib notes:
Reform:
make changes in (something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.
Christians didn't 'improve', they created their own religion.
Messianic prophecies??? When Jews are no longer young children they don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either. As for your "Messianic Jews", I already commented on your "Jews for Jesus". Jews don't try to prevent you from believing in your fairy tales, nor do they encourage conversion to Judaism, so as far as I'm concerned you can believe the world is flat and Armageddon is coming and I really don't care and for sure you won't have any success converting me to your Christian beliefs, so give it up (or is it considered a sin to not keep trying?)
So Nerm, what is the role of faith in our Christian (salvation) narrative? Hmm?
Christianity is a new covenant (contractual agreement) borne out of the old covenant (contractual agreement) being fulfilled. That is, for believers the old covenant of works "passed away" and the new covenant of faith is instituted for two thousand plus years.
Is that a wholly "new" religion in the sense that you mean it? Not really. The foundation of Christianity is Judaism. Evenso, Jesus referred to himself in life as the "cornerstone" (of an "institution") joining two wholes as one.
That being so, it is also true that Christianity was founded on one man, Jesus, and all of its officials had created for them designated roles not found in the "old religion" on Judaism. For example, pope, pastors, preachers, and teachers.
Gaslighting your gaslighting ...... a diabolical, albeit predictable tactic.
Where did you get this idea?
Well, the yearly secular tradition is to retell every historical story that castes Christians as being evil.
Are you celebrating the holiday this year with Visa, Mastercard, or what's-in-your-wallet?
To me it a haters gotta hate scenario and generally a DNE moment. It accomplishes nothing but to piss people off most of the time.
It's a Festivas for the rest of us is fine with me. Won't change a damn thing for me or mine.
I didn't know Rudolph and Frosty were historical stories...
So that is how we got dentistry, from an elf that wanted to work on teeth.
Again, where do you see this?
Christmas means many different things. There is no single answer that is true for everyone. My family, for example, celebrates Christmas as a fun holiday … no so much in consideration of the proclaimed birth of Jesus but a chance to gather and have traditional fun.
In our family we have 2 celebrations during December. One on the winter solstice (Yule) where we eat and drink and one on Christmas where we exchange gifts, eat and drink. My daughter attends Midnight Mass and enjoys the pageantry. It is never a fight in our house.
I went to Midnight Mass once. All the vapors from the alcohol breaths made me drunk. It smelled like a gd brewery in the chapel
Sounds right to me. Some of my extended family go to Chrismas mass but that seems to be the extent of their religious consideration of the holiday. Most of the time is spent preparing for and having family events. Christmas seems more to be a celebration of family and pleasant times; religion seems to be playing an increasingly lesser role.
I used to enjoy Midnight Mass - of course we had already consumed the spiked eggnog... then we had kids and had to attend the "children's Mass". That was a horror show & too goddamn crowded for my tastes.
I agree.
I have a pretty large extended family these days with my daughter marrying my friends' son. We were all a pretty big crowd before but now we're family.
Christmas Eve is not complete without one round of Monopoly
Sure, all starts with a seemingly simple game of monopoly..
Then it all breaks down. The lying, cheating, stealing that eventually leads to a table flip and broken beer bottles..
That would be Uno for us
I was stabbed once over Uno because we rented a house at the beach and it rained all week....
Or was it Yahtzee?
Stabbed?
I've been called names by my spouse and children and in turn called them names and disowned them but never stabbed them...felt like it sometimes
Could be either one of those two in our house. Well not stabbed but quite heated at times. LOL
Back in the day I had decent pecs and it just stayed there for a moment, very difficult to pull out though,
after a minute it went limp and slid out.
His spouse came over and slapped the back of his head really hard and we all laughed.
Pretty sure I have been to that church a time or two.. I'm positive there were a few pews behind me that were passing stinkweed around as well.
My church growing up didn't have midnight mass, but it did have a candlelight Christmas service the Sunday before Christmas. Back in the 80s or 90s, when hair was huge and shellacked with hairspray, the candle/hairspray mix resulted in some minor singeing of a girl's hair. Her hair was extinguished without any permanent damage to her, fortunately. Quite the excitement for our sleepy little town.
Trivial Pursuit at our house.
So there really is such a thing? And it is not just a movie on Netflix? No, really, this is a genuine (request for knowledge) question?
Stabbed? Pecs? Laughter? . . . Scar? Back in the day, I dropped a switchblade into my thigh (accidentally while playing around opening it - of course) and got the scar right now to remember it!
I will be doing exhibitions of my scar (UPON REQUEST). Lines form in the back, please. . . .
I find that after 60 years the only way scars really show up is when you go ice swimming
or whatever they call it, lol
When my hands are cold and wet they show every scar I ever got because my hands turn red where never
violated but white where scars used to exist prominently
I cannot find my hernia scar either but it has to be there.
Yes, my mother has shamed me and her grandchildren into many in PA & NJ.
It's real.
I have two hernia scars. The second one 'brand-spanking' new. Interestingly, I thought my first hernia scar was where my second one is. In other words, I thought my second surgery would be a re-patch! It is not. Lo and behold! My first scar is on the other side (of me).
It seems when a surgeon's team cuts away the 'pubes' you don't just get "naked" - you get facts like where old scars reside! (Smile.) Yes, I can see it plain and clear (now). It's a very old scar!
I remember not quite making it over a chain link fence cutting through veterans housing area at Rising Sun and Adams in Philly when I was 12 0r 13.
Was impaled for a minute or two before I reversed course, threw my baseball kit over the fence and made a better vault.
Played our baseball game and went home limping.
Washed my uniform and never thought about it again.
During the hernia surgery they woke me
demanding to know about previous groin surgeries.
They didn't believe me.
Guess I was just lucky.
Oucheeeeee!-Ooooooo-Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! I can feel the "imposition" placed on you at 12-13 and again at being awakened during surgery! Of all the nerve. What was "up" with that anesthesiologist?
That reminds me of a barium enema (?) or some other substance I drank (?) then got x-rayed and to this day no one can account for this specific bright spot on the film. I was queried about being shot ever in life? (NO. For that I would remember!)
It looks to be in a spot that would be uncomfortable for say, routine exploration looking for "determination." (Smile.) To this day I don't have a read out about it. Wonder if it is still on me?
Yes, Midnight Mass is a thing. Some of them can be truly beautiful. Choirs sing beautiful hymns and the candles glow. In the right Church it can be downright awe inspiring. My daughter likes to attend the local Polish church. It does more of the old fashioned Mass.
Interesting. Curious, in your opinion, is the Polish "old fashioned Mass" one of the "downright awe-inspiring" services you mentioned?
I have a similar story. Back in Toronto I belonged to a businessmen's organization - don't remember if it was the Kiwanis Club, but if not, then something like it, and they had a raffle at $100 a ticket and I bought in and WON. It was for a weeklong trip to Rio de Janeiro for two, airfare and hotel. I've never been to South America, or even Mexico, so I was so excited. But my wife (now my ex) didn't want to go there, and I had to negotiate a trade with the travel agency to come up with the airfare and a week at a second-rate beach hotel in Miami Beach. It was so cold all week, an unusual weather occurrence, that on the few days the sun was out we had to wear sweaters to lie on the beach.
HA!
Now that is so very interesting. I mean it really. I so enjoy when a commenter shares something from the 'vault' of their life. I really do! What causes me to laughter?
Well Buzz, you started a "similar story" with an opening about stabbing. So, I launched into your account looking to see how you offended and concern about your injury! (Smile.)
Good to learn you were just chilly and not brutally assaulted!
Well it was almost half a century ago and things were very different in America back then, so I didn't even imagine back then that I would have been assaulted. Today I wouldn't step one foot into America even to visit my grandchildren unless I was at least wearing body armour and had some kind of spray that would stop an attacker and even then I would be paranoid.
Similarities, crappy weather during vacation.
Being stabbed compared to wearing sweaters, not so much.
But old people like to reminisce and some are known for rather tall fish stories.
The first time my newish wife met the old gang for dinner she tested me for accuracy.
She grabs a steak knife and says OK which one of you stabbed my old man over a game of UNO?
One guy almost spit his food out, another yelled OMG! and the widow of the ne'er do well
turned to the others with a quizzical look
and in unison they all said
"It was Yahtzee! not UNO, for cryin out loud !"
Good times, Good times!
Well, we're not that bad - yet. Though, I can understand the hesitancy due to all the pure-d hell and swaggering occurring "live" and in on our media-platforms!
The majority of us are still just living our 'best life' in-spite of the tragedies occurring remotely.
I know the vast majority of Americans are good people, but the problem is the size (and proliferation) of those who aren't. I'm sure lots of Americans will blame it on the immigrants, but that isn't the real problem.
I shouldn't have used the word "similar", because of course being stabbed is a whole other story than a weather problem. I have to admit that I mistakenly hadn't taken your comment about stabbing as being an actual physical act.
Xmas is a means and an excuse to have and celebrate food, booze, and presents. These are a few of my favorite things
Things some people think Christmas means is revealing and astounding.
A lot of disaffected, holy than thou people out there Tex .....
Yes, and? As was pointed out, Xmas means different things to different people.
If people think Christmas is about food, booze and presents, then they should probably read a little about what Christmas actually is all about.
Haven't some of these folks been complaining about how Christians "stole" their "holidays", but isn't that what non-Christians who celebrate Christmas are doing?
The denial can be strong in those ones.
Help them you can't
It's about whatever one wants it to be.
Sorry, but that is simply idiotic.
Sounds like something made up to support crap that can't be logically defended.
What you think means less than nothing! What Xmas means to you is likely different than what it means to me or anyone else too.
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.
It isn't even debatable.
For most people it is. You will need to get used to the idea that this will grow less true over time. Currently, it is absolutely NOT the case that Christmas is ONLY the celebration of the birth of Christ. For me, it is the celebration of family. It is, to me, a tradition with religious roots but is not a religious holiday. And, importantly, I am far from being the only person on the planet who thinks this way.
Then you have missed what Christmas is.
Your loss, I am sure.
Denying what Christmas IS because of what some people DO is silly. Do better.
No I have not missed anything. I am quite well versed in the religious history of Christmas. The fact that I do not believe it is not a loss. As I see things, it is a positive enlightenment.
Christmas has evolved over time. Your argument would suggest that Christmas can only be what was true at a particular point in time (say, for example, 336 AD in Rome).
That is being blind to reality.
What Christmas is, is a function of perception. The perception of Christmas has changed over time. While religious at inception (i.e. ceremonial celebration of the birth of Christ) the Christmas holiday has changed substantially since the time of Constantine. It has evolved and will continue to do so regardless of your position.
Certainly you recognize that Christmas is substantially more than simply the celebration of the birth of Christ (think 'Santa Claus' for example). This trend will likely continue so get used to it.
[deleted]
Making Christmas about family is "fucking it up"?
That doesn't sound very Christian. On several levels.
Maybe for you. But not for me, and i imagine, not for many others too. That is the historical Christian religion claim. Many do not celebrate Xmas as the time of Jesus' birth. If you want to sing Happy Birthday Jesus, that's fine for you. I'll just party and have fun.
I think you have, and your posts bear that out.
Do you celebrate Hannukah?
How's about Easter?
Good Friday?
Yom Kippur?
Eid Al-fitr?
Diwali?
Then you, like TiG, are not celebrating Christmas but merely using it as an excuse for doing whatever it is you choose to do on that day.
Uh yeah, I explicitly said I use it as an excuse to Celebrate and party. Were you paying attention? Hello?
Doing what I want (or what anyone else wants) on Xmas is my point. That's how I view the day for me. Just as anyone else can view it for themselves however they wish.
That isn't Christmas. [deleted]
Why not call it Family Day then?
What are you so pissed off about? Why can't we liberals celebrate Christmas alongside the conservatives? You are being very selfish about this whole holiday
You do know there are a lot of liberal Christians, yes? I don't think they'd find much Christian love in your comment.
An opinion but like assholes everyone has one.
Minobii niibaa anami'e giizhigad
so you aren't truly celebrating Christmas
I'm celebrating it my way. People eat, drink, and party on Xmas. Who are you to say they or I are not?
I don't think they would find any in yours.
Yep no doubt.
you aren't celebrating Christmas. you are just partying.
Sandy is not a Christian but you claim to be
They don't know the difference.
Deleted
So....you're not a Christian? Sorry I made that assumption. I heartily apologize
Partying is how I celebrate. Celebrations often involve partying too
My religion is no concern of yours.
Seems someone is bashing Christians. There are A LOT of Liberal Christians.
Go drink some eggnog & calm down.
that is absolutely true.
obtuse.
According to the bashers they are all Conservative Thumpers.
Egg Nog sounds good, Cheers!
You're right that your religion (I prefer the word faith) is none of my business but you're the one that seems to be insisting that liberals have no business celebrating Xmas because they don't celebrate Christ. So you're basically telling all of us that you are a conservative Christian with your bashing of liberals celebrating Xmas.
p.s. There are many liberal Christians. I know Sandy already told you that but I think you might need a refresher
Show me where. I won't hold my breath because you are talking out your ass - maybe you have already indulged in too much eggnog.
One basher. One. And I'm pretty sure he isn't lumping all Christians together. Just the real annoying ones who insist on knocking at one's door on a Saturday at 0800.
She is bashing liberal Christians - which would make her the subject of this whole article....hmmm I wonder if that was Nerm's intention.
Wow, get a grip.
I don't give a shit what you do on Christmas day.
I doubt it
Apparently you do. I shouldn't be celebrating Xmas. That's been your mantra all through here.
I think you're the one that needs to get a grip. I'm not the one on an angry tirade.
Never said one word that someone shouldn't be celebrating Christmas. But you will read what you want to read.
You have a good day Trout.
Don't be snarky with "have a good day, Trout". You don't mean it.
And you need to go back and read all your words on what you've said about liberal Christians. The fact is you know you went over the line but now don't have the ovaries to stand behind them. Bad form
How so? Xmases involve parties, right?
No worries, I know not everyone gets it or knows what Christmas is.
Like I said, Xmas means different things to different people.
I would love to hear what exactly you celebrate and how it relates to the birth of Christ.
Celebrate to have fun. Like I said, Xmas is a good excuse to do so.
so, nothing to do with what Christmas really is, which is what I figured all along.
thanks for the confirmation
Perhaps nothing to do with what you think your idea of Xmas is. But as I repeatedly said, Xmas means different things to different people.
no need to explain, I realize your concept of it has zero to do with actual Christmas
Xmas is essentially a big birthday party. I'm simply engaging in birthday festivities. That's good enough for me.
To each her own. We seem to have different ideas regarding love and kindness.
Yes we certainly do.
I, for one, believe that Christianity is supposed to be about love. Love of family included. Somehow, wanting to celebrate with family is "fucking it up."
Something tells me Jesus would have liked the fact that I love my family. I doubt he would think that fucks anything up.
As long as that religious love stays in the home or church correct? You are fine with kindness and love as long as it conforms to your approval. I doubt Jesus would approve of your strict rules and boundaries on how love and kindness is expressed. But he still would love you.
Well, most of the time...
Nope. I celebrate Christmas with my work family, and my friends.
Hell, I even wished a total stranger at Costco a Merry Christmas today after helping her find the prettier gift wrap at the back of the bin.
What is the point of you making shit up like this? Where did Sandy stipulate that love and kindness is only okay if it meets some unstated criteria? Seems to me you are working overtime trying to find something for which to be offended and will invent a reason if one is not presented by your interlocutor.
So there is no profit in religious celebration...
Better skip the collection plate...
The collection plate is to break even with expenses and promote the ministries to serve our community and the world. We Protestants at least are non profit organizations
Tell that to Joel Osteen
Jeez, I heard that that $500K was only half of what they take in on a weekend
and that was 7 years ago?
They don't even pay taxes.
Promoting Ministers in Mansions and their Maserati's and personal jets, as non profits.
The effing gall of it all.
smh
Nor should they.
As the Clinton's and Obama's laugh their asses off at their useful idiots from their non profits, private jets, multiple mansions and luxury vacation properties
Did you know that The Salvation Army is a Protestant Christian church? If you drop change into a Salvation Army red kettle then you are making a donation to a Christian church.
"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."
Even for Dulay if she sees this...
Maligayang PaskoThe new hot gift for this year...................
I just read a story about a group (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation) that's complaining about Wreaths Across America a group that lays Wreaths on Military Gravesites. I didn't know that Wreaths were particularly religious, sure they are a traditional Christmas decoration but so are snowflakes and snowmen. A Wreath is about as religious as Cornstalks tied to a fencepost, more a sign of the season than religious object. Seems nitpicky to me. Even if you see Wreaths strictly as Christmas decorations there are two versions of Christmas, one is the Religious Christian Holiday, and the other is the Secular Santa Claus version and Wreaths work with either.
It's weird isn't it. in the 70's when my Uncle, a survivor of German concentration camps would have us for Hanakah
at the end of the evening he always said he loved us but prayed for no snow during Xmas in PA.
Even the snow was tainted, lol.
Apparently the wreath was an important part of the earlier religions absorbed by Christianity.
Are wreaths a religious symbol? – TheKnowledgeBurrow.com
But I agree with the Cornstalk analogy, and we have several seasonal wreaths even heart shapes for Valentines Day
and wine themed ones with corks and grapes.
Some people just need to find something, ANYTHING to be offended by. Just gotta shake your head these days.
[Deleted]
I think this time they have gone too far. There's nothing inherently religious in an Xmas wreath. I think it's a nice gesture to honor the fallen
I was curious about its origins so i googled it. Interesting stuff:
That said, today this is nothing more than hater gotta hate.
Nothing more .....
Someday all gestures of kindness and gratitude will be condemned to not offend anyone about anything. I feel for our generations to come that have to live in such an ugly place.
I guess this is what America wants now.
The story of the Christian celebration of Christmas depends very much upon the century and the particular Christian group you are talking about. Orthodox Christmas isn't until January 7th. The Puritans outlawed celebrating Christmas.
Well those dirty rotten....
Oh humbug, once again I'll overcook the lump of coal.
Although Christmas may originally have been a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus and the recalling of kindness among all people, those were days of dreaming of a white Christmas that would actually happen, whereas these days manufacturers and retailers dream of a green Christmas and they are getting it, and not only that, but it's starting to happen environmentally as well.
Nobody is bashing the Christian celebration of Christmas.
They bash the myth of the "war on Christmas".
They bash the refusal of some Christians to understand and accept that theirs is not the only holiday celebrated near mid-winter, and their insistence that we "keep Christ in Christmas (which some folks don't celebrate)" and that everybody wish them a "merry Christmas" rather than a more-inclusive "happy holidays".
Every year, around Thanksgiving, I start seeing Facebook posts shared around telling me that "It's Merry Christmas, NOT Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings" from those childish and perpetually offended snowflakes who get upset about people hoping that they have happy holidays.
There's some bashing, but it's not starting with non-Christians. Some Christians are forgetting the Golden Rule, and reaping the results of their stubborn refusal to abide by the rules they'd like to impose on others.
Your rationalizations of what is and isn't bashing are ridiculous and typical of the hypocritical left.
Pick and chose, pick and chose.
How so? Where do you see people actually bashing Christmas celebrations by Christians? Be clear and provide real instances. Vague claims of persecution will not suffice.
So, your example of Merry Christmas. You think Christians started that disconnect? I certainly don't. That started when progressives started insisting that Merry Christmas should not used and Happy Holidays should be used in its place. That is a relatively new thing. I could care less what you call it but don't tell folks they can't use Merry Christmas and ostracize them when they do. Thats a verbal assault on Christian beliefs .... period.
You are only fooling yourself if you think Christians started that brouhaha
I could go on but i know i'm wasting my breath with folks who are Christians haters. People who work very hard to convince themselves they don't bash Christians regularly.
That said, in the end i could care less what people say or think about my faith. But it is satisfying to call the hypocrisy out from time to time and watch the rationalizations really spin out of control
Nobody told you that you can't use "Merry Christmas."
So, you've provided vague examples of nonexistent persecution, and a little ad hom to boot. Such an argument is neither convincing nor Christ-like.
Sandy didn't tell anyone not to use Merry Christmas. Personally I don't care what you tell me, just don't call me late for Happy Hour
How would you know that?
The answer is you couldn't. Suffice it to say you are simply wrong on this topic.
Dead wrong.
That .... would never happen.
Never
First Amendment is how.
Bullshit, you think that stops the triggered from bashing people who use Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays?
Sorry, that's just obtuse reasoning.
You're equating "bashing on", which I have literally never heard anyone do, with "telling Christians they can't". Because that's all you've got to bolster your false claims of persecution.
[deleted]
Like i said, just becasue you say you've never seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And i question the veracity of your comments here when you try to tell me that it's never happened to me when there is no way in hell you could ever know that.
[deleted] Again, i could care less what you call it but look no further than this seed for prove of peoples shitty attitude towards others who use Merry Christmas and that's just one example.
As i said, this discussion is pointless so i'll leave the last word to you
You 'weren't allowed'? What was stopping you from calling it Christmas vacation anyway?
Oh, you can bet many are still doing that, more probably today.
No doubt about it
Yes they still are...........at least in my wife's school system.
I'm just spitballing here but maybe her desire and tradition to call it Merry Christmas?
More ad hom. Still no substantiation for your claims.
How in the world would her desire to call it Merry Christmas (strange name for a school break, I must say) keep her from doing so?
My bad, i meant Christmas vacation .... got my posts mixed up
This is a perfect example of what Sandy is talking about. You gratuitously translate her comments into 'Christian hate'. And don't play the game of 'I did not say that' because she was your target by context.
Some people interpret lack of belief and arguments countering religious claims as 'bashing'. That strikes me as looking for a way to be a victim. I have yet to see Sandy make claims like "Christians are evil" or "Christians are all stupid" or "Christians are dangerous", etc.
And some people interpret bashing as "counter arguments".
You can keep trying to spin it otherwise but you would be just as wrong as Sandy. The hate on display here on NT alone towards Christianity while sometimes cleverly veiled, is clear as day to even the most casual of viewers. The Merry Christmas issue is just one good example. It's preposterous to intimate that Christians started that issue. Absolutely preposterous.
Ridiculous, I don't play games here. I've never run from any reasonable line of questioning here ever. Least of all yours or Sandys.
I'm getting deja vu all over again. This reminds me of the "Faith" debate where you simply denied one definition of "Faith" to make your point. To "bash" is to strike violently or to attack physically or verbally. I stated very clearly what has happened to me in the past. Verbal attacks from people who don't like the phrase Merry Christmas. Sandy tried to tell me that it hadn't happened to me, which is impossible for her to know. Verbal assaults like that are becoming more and more regular these days towards people of faith. That is undeniable and trying to gaslight as otherwise is simply ignorant.
That still doesn't explain how her desire to call it a Christmas vacation would prevent her from doing so.
Lots of victim-hood going on here. Personally I do not care if someone or some business advertises 'Merry Christmas' rather than go generic with 'Happy Holidays' or equivalent. Our nation is predominantly Christian so I expect it. But it is not Christian-bashing for people to object to a business catering to a single religion. That is a silly overreaction.
Christian bashing would be unfairly attacking Christians in general. I cannot imagine that many people who would do that. Who among us does not have mostly Christian friends and family? Would we bash aunt Mary because she is a devout Catholic?? Why?
The bashing that is done is typically in response to Christian-based claims such as the nonsense of the YECs. If someone seeks to dumb down society with a belief that our planet is 6,000 years old, etc. they need to be bashed. The fact that their nonsense is religious and they are Christians is irrelevant.
No, Sparty, it is YOU who are doing the spinning. Face up to what you do on the site rather than always, consistently project onto others.
Nobody's bashing Christians. Recognizing that other holidays are celebrated during winter is not bashing Christians or Christianity.
Getting offended by "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings", however, is bashing religions other than Christianity. It implies that one is wrong to use a salutation that includes Hanukkah. That strikes me as antisemitic.
Apparently so. Do you think it is appropriate to label a counter argument as bashing?
Similarly, do you think it is appropriate to label disagreement as an attack?
When people affix their own atypical meaning to common words, that screws up communication.
I don't know, perhaps she's just a nice person who doesn't want to rock the boat but lets turn it around to what started this whole thing.
Why don't the people who can't call it "Christmas" vacation grow a thicker skin and just let it go?
Lol ... no Tig. i'm not. Not in the least but by all means. Explain how i am spinning my own experiences.
Generally, I agree with you here. But note that our nation is growing increasingly diverse in terms of religion. Approximately 65-% of the nation identify as Christian. Thus, logically, we need to acknowledge that Christmas is not strictly a Christian holiday or we need to recognize that there are other religions that should not be drowned out by Christianity. And, of course, there are the irreligious who do not want the constant delivery of Christian messages and images.
Our nation continues to grow more diverse so I think the thicker skin argument runs both ways. Christians need to lighten up too.
I did not claim you are spinning your own experiences. I claimed that you are spinning what I and others are writing.
I'd say everyone who is a member of this site except maybe Buzz is surrounded by Christians most of the time, as we live in a majority Christian nation.
And I'd say most of those who are accused of bashing are probably like me - we have Christmas trees and lights up (or will soon), and probably exchange gifts and have gatherings with our families. We eat, drink, and make merry, and reminisce on old times, and miss those who are no longer with us, and take joy from the fact that we had them in our lives for the time we did.
We just don't share the religious beliefs. But somehow saying so is "bashing". Somehow, knowing that Christmas trees started as Yule logs is "bashing". Knowing that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th (but that other festivals did have that date) is "bashing". Recognizing other religions is "bashing".
As i have said numerous times here, i could care less what people call it. My hackles go up when i'm told what i can't or shouldn't call it.
That, is the major distinction here. In my case anyways.
Exactly! It strikes me as over-reaction to claim victimization.
Well if I wished someone Merry Christmas (as I routinely do in response to the same wish) and someone objected to my response, my hackles would go up too.
Thing is, I bet you $$$$ that Sandy would respond just like you and I would.
Yes, whenever it IS bashing.
Yes, whenever it IS an attack.
And whenever people try to ignore commonly accepted definitions of words, become bogged down over definitions instead of what the posts actually convey, that certainly screws up "communication"
Who has told you that you can't say Merry Christmas? Specifically...someone in your real life? someone here on NT?
I would, and do, and often am the first to say "Merry Christmas."
(deleted)
Why, exactly, are you quoting my words to me?
Be specific.
Bullshit, plain and simple.
I see no one making the claim otherwise.
Had i "specifically" accused you or anyone else here of that, the posts would already be gone.
Yeah, there are people here who regularly bash Christians. No spin to that at all. That's just a fact.
Not sure why you having such trouble with that.
I suppose using derogatory terms such as "thumpers" is a kind expression.
A counter-argument is not bashing. It might contain bashing but that goes beyond the definition of counter-argument.
In and of itself, offering a counter to an argument is not bashing.
You effectively said that bashing is bashing.
And now you do the same with disagreement. Disagreement in and of itself is not an attack. One must add attack language. Thus you have stated that an attack is an attack.
Think about this Texan, one could make a supporting argument and include bashing within it. One could also agree and weave bashing into the agreement.
Stop trying to mess with the meaning of common words.
Good grief man, don't just chop off the context. Here is Sandy's next (and critically important) sentence which qualifies her meaning:
Use common sense. Obviously Sandy is not claiming that on the entire planet nobody bashes Christians. Cherry-picking a single sentence to create a strawman is intellectually dishonest.
Okay, over the years .... family, friends, random acquaintances, teachers, profs, smartasses online, etc, etc
Try this sometime this holiday season. Go to a place where you usually say Happy Holidays and say Merry Christmas instead. See what happens. I'm not saying people will tell you not to say Merry Christmas but the uncomfortable index meter will likely start pegging ....
I for one think it is ridiculous that i have places i need to say Happy Holidays for people to be comfortable or Merry Christmas for people to be comfortable and i'm expected to know the difference.
Absolutely ridiculous in both cases
Some people have had horrible experiences with a specific type of Christian church and/or cult and it has colored their world view. Why don't you consider that the next time that word offends you? As a kind, caring, Christian as I know you are, I really shouldn't have to remind you
So am I. It's a habit that I'm not ashamed of because I grew up saying it. And living in the south I don't know people of other faiths so it has really become a habit
I think this is something we will need to simply accept. As the nation grows more religiously diverse we necessarily will see the dominance of Christianity wane. Christmas, since that is our focus, will need to be viewed in more general terms (not simply a Christian holiday) or we will continue to move to more inclusive language for the population such as "Seasons Greetings" / "Happy Holidays".
Living here in the South, I always say Merry Christmas. Saying Happy Holidays around here is sure to start a ruckus
Quotes?
We have all had our own horrible experiences in life. Most educated adults know not to stereotype and bash an entire group.
You now nothing about me so please do not talk out of your ass about me.
Same. To my knowledge, there are no Jewish people in my county. I have seen a few people I believe are Muslims and Hindus, but not very many. The vast majority are Christians, and I know a few atheists.
The teachers have a tough gig. Caught between a rock and a hard spot.
Your condescending replies are not desired by me, so please use it on someone else.
You won't be getting a specific answer to that question.
Ah, so, a term of employment from an agency of a government that is not supposed to endorse one religion over another, especially with a captive audience of children?
And I'm quite sure that your daughter was allowed to call it whatever she wanted, especially at home.
Some employers prefer to be religiously neutral, as their customers may be followers of religions other than Christianity. So they have their employees use religiously neutral greetings, especially if they are located in culturally diverse areas. That's just good for business.
Of course, after they clock out, those employees can use whichever they want in their non-business interactions.