Robert in Ohio

Democrats and Republicans - The Extnction of the Loyal Opposition and the Demise of the United States

  
By:  Robert in Ohio  •  life choices  •  4 years ago  •  238 comments

Democrats and Republicans - The Extnction of the Loyal Opposition and the Demise of the United States
"A Two-Party System is Way Too Good for Those Two Parties" Penn Jillette

It has been a long time since I posted a discussion - I am not sure from where to begin.

I have been away from NT for quite some time because the constant hate speech, crap slinging and shouting down the other side rather than trying to discuss anything became too annoying to endure. I discovered that those same attitudes, actions and processes existed "in the real world" and on other media platforms (participatory and so-called informative types). I used to enjoy watching a variety of cable news stations to get varied opinions and insight into the issues of the day and see input from talking heads leaning to both sides of the aisle.

But no more - I watch local news and mostly the weather and sports portions of the broadcasts and instead of cable news I watch PBS or the weather channel and I have new hobbies golf, flower gardening, hiking and just walking about in our sleepy village taking pictures.

I long for the way things used to be - when there was a loyal opposition rather than a hated enemy to be opposed on every issue simply because "they" advocate for something makes it the wrong choice. There has not been a "loyal opposition" in Washington involved in bipartisan legislative activity for decades and that is a sad commentary on our society and our leaders.

I do not care why you hate Trump (or love him), or why everything Obama did was wrong-headed (or heavenly inspired) - everything that is good or bad in our society today is neither to Trump's credit or to be blamed on him and same was true in previous administrations. "We the people" should be able to disagree without being disagreeable - civility should not be a rarity.

When one side uses the mantra of "free speech" to justify drowning out or refusing to let speak a person with whom they disagree, they present a brand-new definition of stupid. I am a proud veteran, retired after decades of active service and while I might disagree vehemently with a position you take, I would stand beside you and fight to defend your right to have that position or opinion.

What does all of this have to do with my title? I think that "party line voting" in hopes of a blue wave or a red wave (without regard to the quality and capabilities of the people running) is largely responsible for the sad we face as a nation. I did not vote for Obama in either election and I did not vote for Trump in 2016 and neither did I vote for the candidate of the "other" major party because I did not think either choice in those three elections was right for the country. But once those elections were over there was no doubt in my mind as who was my president and r who was the president of every other citizen of this country - "elections have consequences" - a smart man said that, and he was right.

So I am back and how long or if I stay depends solely on me - oh I will be influenced by the civility and incivility of others on NT and whether intelligent and participative debate is possible, but in the end it will be determined by how the pleasure I get from NT (and I did enjoy it for a long time) is counterbalanced by the aggravation and annoyance of people who want to shout others down rather than discuss issues.

Well that's it - my grandma always said I used a dozen words when two would usually suffice and it looks like she was right - it is good to be back.

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CB
Professor Principal
1  CB     4 years ago

Be remarkably hot or cold, for lukewarm is simply unremarkable.


Robert, look. If your avatar is you from before, we just meeting for the first time.I have only been around here since last October (the "burial" days of NewsVine).

There is a growing problem with sophistry (weak arguments)  occurring in "American" politics today; there are sets of major "discrepancies" occurring through outright onslaughts of lies and propaganda too. These so-called "outcomes" which we find ourselves constantly dealing with have original causes, and it will benefit this nation to single out those cause/s and tamp them down—even better out.

Now I take issue with a paragraph in your article. Yet, in the back of my mind I understand you will be weighing what you 'hear' to see if it is worth your time and energy. Here goes, nevertheless:

What does all of this have to do with my title? I think that "party line voting" in hopes of a blue wave or a red wave (without regard to the quality and capabilities of the people running) is largely responsible for the sad we face as a nation. I did not vote for Obama in either election and I did not vote for Trump in 2016 and neither did I vote for the candidate of the "other" major party because I did not think either choice in those three elections was right for the country. But once those elections were over there was no doubt in my mind as who was my president and r who was the president of every other citizen of this country - "elections have consequences" - a smart man said that, and he was right.

There is so much wrong with this paragraph, in my opinion, I hardly know where to begin! So, forgive me on our first interaction for the way I am going to proceed here:

Are you familiar with a certain passage about water being served hot or cold, as lukewarm deserves to be spewed out?

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1    4 years ago
Are you familiar with a certain passage about water being served hot or cold, as lukewarm deserves to be spewed out?

knowing him as long as I have I'm sure he is, if not he will familiarize himself with it.

Isn't that a call to anything that is centrally based as a method of coming together to mutually resolve some problem, being called a weak-kneed approach? (and summarily rejected) ie. the only worthwhile approach it to beat the other side into submission?

I submit that we need some lukewarm milk rather than the hot tea or coffee, so it can go down without burning the palate...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.1  CB   replied to  Nowhere Man @1.1    4 years ago

Actually, I stated what I meant to write plainly: Be remarkably hot or cold, for lukewarm is simply unremarkable.


There is a true blue 'brawler' in the White House and that alone does not make President Trump a 'bad man.' The issues which make Trump dangerous are his outright onslaughts of lies and propaganda all in the interests of making America wealthy. Not safe - wealthy. The problem with this: All money is not good money.

A great people must have a conscience at the end of the day.

President Trump arrived on the scene two years ago and has merged a senate majority into himself, 'retired' a supreme court Justice who just happened (past tense) to have been "centrally based" to keep the country and the divided states from self-indulgent spirits of - if it is good for me, its must be good for you. Now I wonder which will win out—justice or injustice?

Consequently, there is much to be confronted head-on in our country. The time is right now for push-back, because without it the 'press' to 2020 starting November 7, will be too much for some Americans to bear up under.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1.1.1    4 years ago

Either way, it will be too much for Americans from either side to bear up under. The plain example of "Pushback" was ACA and what happened as a result in 2010......

The people know they are in a political war. I just hope neither side wins it cause if one side or the other does, I believe that bullets will fly....

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.3  CB   replied to  Nowhere Man @1.1.2    4 years ago

I do believe whichever side "shoots bullets" first will trigger Homeland Security. That is, the National Guard. All the more reason for each side to come to its senses and work together for the good of all the citizenry. Close down these 'hot' political silos and propaganda channels of communications. Get back to being salt of the Earth, people. Ironically, it seems the only activity which unifies the 'factions' in our country is our ability to fight other nation's wars. Without the stress and strain of war—we seem to turn inward to consume ourselves. 

Could it be, we are exposing our "Achilles' heel" to the wise adversary attuned to pick it up?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.4  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.1.1    4 years ago

I like facts - would you care to share your facts that President Trump "retired" a SCOTUS justice - you imply that Justice Kennedy was forced out and I would like to see the factual basis for that implication.

Like I said I did not vote for the man, I do not agree with him on many issues and I almost never agree with his approach to issues - but nonetheless he is the President of every citizen of this country.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.5  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Nowhere Man @1.1    4 years ago

N M 

Good to hear from you and it has been a long time

I also agree that we have had too much of only "boiling hot water" or only "ice cold water" through the last few administrations (including the current one) and some "room temperature" bipartisan action is exactly what this country needs on many issues it faces.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.4    4 years ago

Nope, not my 'president'  

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.7  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.6    4 years ago

Tesslo

Respect your opinion and I expect that you felt that the people who felt that what about President Obama were correct as well?

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.8  lennylynx  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.7    4 years ago

Sorry Robert, but you 'centrists' with your ridiculous false equivalencies make me wanna PUKE.  Obama was a fine, centrist president, statesman, world leader and a genuinely decent, empathetic human being.  How DARE you compare the deranged lunatic currently occupying the White House, to President Obama?  Give your head a shake pal, bang it off the table a few times.  Better?

 
 
 
XDm9mm
Masters Expert
1.1.9  XDm9mm  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.8    4 years ago
Obama was a fine, centrist president, statesman, world leader and a genuinely decent, empathetic human being.

I never met him, so I don't know if he was "fine".  He was the President.  

As to being "centrist", he's was about as centrist as Bill Ayers and Rev. Wright.   And in my view, he wasn't a "statesman" or world leader.  He was an American apologist bemoaning what America did for the world and chastised this country for being, well, great.  As to a leader, he led from behind because he didn't have the cajones to get out front.

Empathetic?  He had all the empathy in the world for the dregs of society, while denigrating those who tried to keep order.

I had no choice but to accept him as President.....   much like you have no choice but to accept Trump as President.   If you can't accept him, that's your personal problem.  You do have the option of leaving to a place more to your liking if you so choose.   It's funny, so many PROMISED to do that, but never did.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.10  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.8    4 years ago

lennlynx

I must applaud your tolerance for the views of others

My head is clear and I have a good view of the world and the country

If you are going to puke, I advise turning your head away from the keyboard, it makes a hell of a mess.

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.11  lennylynx  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.10    4 years ago

Thanks for the advice Robert, but I chewed a couple of tums and should be ok as long as I don't read your reply to Tessy again!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.12  JohnRussell  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.10    4 years ago

If one person shoots you with a shotgun, and another person stabs you with a toothpick, would you simply say, "both of them attacked me" ? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.13  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.4    4 years ago

I have implied no such thing, though there is a rumor out and about in high circles that Justin Kennedy, the son of Justice Anthony Kennedy, may be, in some legal trouble due to,

As the New York Times noted, Donald Trump did have a business relationship with Deutsche Bank, where Justin Kennedy once worked (he left the company in 2009), that went back many years to a time when many other banks were leery of doing business with Trump:

[Anthony Kennedy and Donald Trump] had a connection, one Mr. Trump was quick to note in the moments after his first address to Congress in February 2017. As he made his way out of the chamber, Mr. Trump paused to chat with the justice.

“Say hello to your boy,” Mr. Trump said. “Special guy.”

Mr. Trump was apparently referring to Justice Kennedy’s son, Justin. The younger Mr. Kennedy spent more than a decade at Deutsche Bank, eventually rising to become the bank’s global head of real estate capital markets, and he worked closely with Mr. Trump when he was a real estate developer, according to two people with knowledge of his role.

During Mr. Kennedy’s tenure, Deutsche Bank became Mr. Trump’s most important lender, dispensing well over $1 billion in loans to him for the renovation and construction of skyscrapers in New York and Chicago at a time other mainstream banks were wary of doing business with him because of his troubled business history.


kennedy4.jpg?resize=600,501

         Source:

Note: I usually do not concern myself with conspiracy theories or anything of the sort. But, you asked and this is being floated out there:

1. John Califra mentions an actual indictment in the EU for Deutsche Bank.

2. Justice Kennedy is said to have 'staffed' up for a new term and then retired.

In case you missed it during the hectic holiday season, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy recently hired a full set of four clerks for October Term 2018 (i.e., 2018-2019). This might mean that Justice Kennedy, the longtime  subject of retirement rumors (which he’s even joked about), is sticking around. Or it might not — because we’re talking about the hard-to-predict AMK, who’s a Supreme Court justice and can do as he pleases.

Source:

See below for finishing remarks. . . .

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.1.13    4 years ago
I have implied no such thing,  

Sure you did.   Your comment @1.1.1:

Calbab @1.1.1: President Trump arrived on the scene two years ago and has merged a senate majority into himself, 'retired' a supreme court Justice who just happened (past tense) to have been "centrally based" to keep the country and the divided states from self-indulgent spirits of -if it is good for me, its must be good for you.
Robert @1.1.4:  ... you imply that Justice Kennedy was forced out  ...

If someone retires a justice that implies force.   

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.15  CB   replied to  CB @1.1.13    4 years ago

Continued from @1.1.13

I do not know any of this. It is all abstract at this point. However, Justice Kennedy certainly displayed a trust for Trump ( Trump stated so much in a rally) to find a conservative replacement for the "swing" justice on the court. So yes, minds can wonder aloud as to why Kennedy would exercise his free option to walk away at this critical juncture in Supreme Court history.

Moreover, in my original comment I put the word, retire in quotes, because there had to have been some mental assent in the mind of J. Kennedy at least, to step away from the court during Trump's 'watch' over our government. J. Kennedy doing so is no mere exercise when the simple act opens the door to a critical sea-change on the Court.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.16  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.1.14    4 years ago

See @1.1.15 below. I was hoping to get it attached to my own comment. Alas, that did not happen! Moreover, can you explain to me how Trump can actually retire without quotes a supreme court justice, because I have not heard of this happening ever and could not have meant it to be taken that way.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.17  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.1.16    4 years ago

Not saying you meant to imply force, but your words did so.   Retiring someone implies that the retiree was subjected to force.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.18  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.1.17    4 years ago

'retired' a supreme court Justice . . . .  I was deliberate in my phrasing, TiG. Again for further meaning of what I wrote see @1.1.15!

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.19  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.11    4 years ago

You should feel no obligation to read anything that I write, feel free to just page to something else anytime you see my avatar

Have a good day

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.20  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.12    4 years ago

John

I am sure that comment made sense in your head - but alas it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic being deiscussed

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.21  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.1.13    4 years ago

calbab

You did not imply, you said it directly 

"President Trump arrived on the scene two years ago and has merged a senate majority into himself, 'retired' a supreme court Justice"

That sentence is transitive - a subject, a verb and an object - you said Trump retired a justice - own it.

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.22  lennylynx  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.19    4 years ago

Oh, you'd like that, would you?  Sorry pal, doesn't work that way.  If you want to come on here spewing ridiculous nonsense that people finding Trump unacceptable is no different than people claiming they found Obama unacceptable, I will express my outrage at such insanity.  Let's look at the reasons the insane right wing gave for their claimed objections to Obama, shall we? Ok

Obama was inexperienced

Obama was arrogant, thought he knew more than he did

Obama was a narcissist, everything was about him

Obama was stupid

Obama embarrassed us on the world stage

Obama was weak

Obama was partisan

Obama divided the country

Obama was a wannabe dictator, a megalomaniac

These same screwballs who said these things about Obama are perfectly ok with TRUMP!!

Take your ridiculous false equivalency and CRAM IT!

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.23  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.22    4 years ago

From your list, the only thing I have said in the past and still believe is that the Obama presidency led to unheard of levels of division and distrust in the country in the country

And that division and distrust has continued to grow under Trump

You should be talking to "those screwballs who are perfectly okay with Trump" and not shouting them at me because I am not perfectly okay with Trump

But I can tell that you like to rant and I say "Rant On!"

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.24  JohnRussell  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.22    4 years ago

Those who decry "incivility" and immoderation run into an unsolvable problem when they decide to support Trump, even a little. 

It's hard to justify complaining about something intemperate that liberals or leftists do in the public arena, when you don't say much as Trump calls his enemies and opponents names constantly, lies every day, and regularly threatens the opposition with some sort of harsh treatment, including that those who disrupt his rallies should be beaten up. 

Robert is distressed that there is so much division in the country, but avoids criticizing the person that is responsible for most of it. 

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
1.1.25  PJ  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.24    4 years ago

Exactly . They have absolutely no credibility left.  Their silence was loud and clear and now they want to pretend they value values?!!!!!!  Haha hahaha 

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.26  lennylynx  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.24    4 years ago

He trotted out the hilarious argument that the country got more divided under Obama, which is actually 100% true.  Obama had the audacity to be president while black, and that did, indeed, divide the country!  We have a deranged lunatic in the White House who is a clear and present danger to the country and the entire world, but we must be respectful to and accepting of, people who fight to retain the lunatic.  Gimme a break...

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
1.1.27  pat wilson  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.23    4 years ago
the Obama presidency led to unheard of levels of division and distrust in the country 

I've heard this many times but have never heard it explained. Can you say why you believe this ?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.28  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.21    4 years ago

See @1.1.15. I've got to move on now.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.29  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.5    4 years ago

Actually I can agree with bipartisanship! I do not in any political extremes (of hot or cold)! That is a misnomer of the meaning I placed in # 1,

Be remarkably hot or cold, for lukewarm is simply unremarkable.

Means: we need to know where we stand as voters; enough of mealy-mouthed arguments which 'wilt' elections and sap the will-power of actual voters. 2016 left too many voters in stasis on the sidelines-shell shocked! Numb, when what was needed was the count of their votes!

Yet another time of voting is here and wishful thinking won't make us a moderate country again. It takes deliberate and decisive action on the part of informed and determined voters, to convince those who promote fear of the "other" and division to fold up and disappear.

Some liberals are having their asses handed to them by some conservative groups who are asking their voting public to act with single-mindedness, resolve, and when determined to expedite matters - some of these folks are willing to manipulate others, twist information, and play intellectual mind games. All in an effort to move their group's agenda forward.

If moderation is to return to the is country; then Moderates will have to enhance one side over and beyond the other! Rhetorical question:

Which side do you choose?!

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
1.1.30  Spikegary  replied to  CB @1.1.13    4 years ago

SO, your position is that 'it could be' and tha makes it acceptable to publish?  Is there anythign else going on in Justice Kennedy's life?  Is there illness in his family?  Was he diagnosed with some type of chronic disease that will not allow him to continue as a justice?  We don't know.  You don't know, I don't know.  The difference is that you are willing to buy into any conspiracy theory that could possibly invole the president because, well 'TRUMP!'. 

It's sad to see and I think this is what Robert is talking about.

BTW, good to see you here Robert.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.31  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.7    4 years ago

'Respect your opinion and I expect that you felt that the people who felt that what about President Obama were correct as well?'

No I don't because it didn't matter what President Obama did or didn't do.  The gop/republicans were against him no matter what FROM DAY ONE.

This both sides crap gets on my last damned nerve.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.32  Tessylo  replied to  lennylynx @1.1.8    4 years ago
'Sorry Robert, but you 'centrists' with your ridiculous false equivalencies make me wanna PUKE.  Obama was a fine, centrist president, statesman, world leader and a genuinely decent, empathetic human being.  How DARE you compare the deranged lunatic currently occupying the White House, to President Obama?  Give your head a shake pal, bang it off the table a few times.  Better?'
jrSmiley_24_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif
Luv ya Lenny.  You da man!
jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.33  CB   replied to  Spikegary @1.1.30    4 years ago

I do not write the news accounts! And, obviously you do not have any more 'firm' information than to take issue with what others are suggesting. You do know is the media 'published' this  (see sources) - in order for me to 'copy' it here. I have explained my reason for displaying it above for the last time above. Take it anyway you wish.

Your suppositions and "we don't know," don't change the narrative. As for me being a conspiracy theorist for posting it, I won't dignify that thought any further. As for President Trump, he is a gratuitous liar and it is proven, but you can't bring yourself to discuss that FACT!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.34  Tessylo  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.27    4 years ago
'the Obama presidency led to unheard of levels of division and distrust in the country'
'I've heard this many times but have never heard it explained. Can you say why you believe this ?'

Alas, it seems you won't get an answer to that.  Just crickets.  

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.35  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.1.29    4 years ago

calbab

If moderation is to return to the is country; then Moderates will have to enhance one side over and beyond the other! Rhetorical question:
Which side do you choose?!

Not rhetorical at all, but it is the wrong scenario and the wrong question.

The correct scenario is - If moderation is to return to the country, then citizens from the right and the left will have to join those in the middle already to form the new majority.

The correct question - Are you ready to move to the center and work with those moving there fromt he other side?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.36  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.31    4 years ago

Tessylo

Your hypocrisy is showing

No I don't because it didn't matter what President Obama did or didn't do. The gop/republicans were against him no matter what FROM DAY ONE.

Which is exactly what happened to Trump, remember the demonstrations on inauguration day.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.37  Ender  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.36    4 years ago

The difference for me is, I was against trump for decades even before he decided to run.

Also, the Democrats didn't hold a meeting and decide to block everything he did.

They are not the same and never will be.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.38  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.36    4 years ago
Your hypocrisy is showing

No I don't because it didn't matter what President Obama did or didn't do. The gop/republicans were against him no matter what FROM DAY ONE.

Which is exactly what happened to Trump, remember the demonstrations on inauguration day.

Nice personal attack there.  I can't report you because it's a blog.  

Complete and utter bullshit!

Again this both sides crap gets on my last damned nerve.  There is no comparison between Obama's presidency and Rump's 'presidency'

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.40  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.35    4 years ago

I have made my position clear. You take a different tack to get back to the political center than me. My stance is this: The time has come to "go get our stuff back" and you seem to hold to a position of "let's all be friends." Whatever is clever. 

I am all about diversity in approaches and practicality.

Let me bit a bit harsher, because this is in the back of my mind. It is election time and here you are—now. Stressing "moderation" and letting President DR© Trump be president of all 350 million of "us."

  1. What has Trump done to compromise with democrats while they have been in the minority? 
  2. Is this the president who plans after midterm election is decided to utterly destroy the ACA ("Obamacare") over democrats vocal objections?
  3. Did the Republican Party "plow right through" the democratic members of the Senate objections to a Federalist Society hand-picked judge for the Supreme Court?

Where is the openness emanating from the Republican Party?

Actually, the Republican Congress is being 'herded' by some conservative think-tanks, lobbyists, and talk 'jocks' scattered across this country and in D.C. to ignore the democrats and liberals: The Republicans in Congress are directed by these groups to equip themselves with might as right!

So yes, I have a question about who you are to show up just in time for the 2018 election to tell everybody to mellow out. I need you to know this: I have no intentions of mellowing out while potential and actual injustice is being unleashed on my liberal associates, friends, and relatives.

Whether the democrats when or lose this midterm; we need some order and decency in the system again. This is not a "one-man show." The country does belongs to all  of its citizens so I suggest people get up off their duffs and go vote their consciences—if they've got them!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.41  Tessylo  replied to    4 years ago

I agree with you up to 'the reaction is . . . . .

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.42  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.38    4 years ago

There is no attack - I commented on the hypocrisy of your position

I care not about your last damned nerve - try BenGay on it

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.43  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.1.40    4 years ago

calbab

So yes, I have a question about who you are to show up just in time for the 2018 election to tell everybody to mellow out. I need you to know this: I have no intentions of mellowing out while potential and actual injustice is being unleashed on my liberal associates, friends, and relatives.

Whether the democrats when or lose this midterm; we need some order and decency in the system again. This is not a "one-man show." The country does belongs to all of its citizens so I suggest people get up off their duffs and go vote their consciences—if they've got them!

I told no one to mellow out, I expressed my view as to what needs to be done to get the legislative process and thus the country back on track and it is same whether there is Dem or Rep majority in the Congress - they need to work together to get things done.   

I couldn't care less whether you get mellower or more belligerent

I totally agree with you that "everyone" eligible to vote in the upcoming elections and all elections should get off their duffs and vote for the candidate and issues they choose to support.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.44  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.43    4 years ago

I like it when we can hash things out on social media - work it out - get a conclusion - instead of the usual circle of wagons and "campin'" as being against each other. Thank you for not being hyper-defensive. I applaud this sharing together. Something might can get accomplished this way, when we can engage forthrightly!

I want the best for this country - sounds like you do too. Now, we need to get some of these "old lions and lionesses" on both sides to fold up. 'age out" and leave the field to the robust lions and lionesses—on both sides!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.45  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.42    4 years ago

Calling me a hypocrite is an attack plain and simple.  

I'm done with your pretzel logic and insults. Toodles Bob 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1.46  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1.1.44    4 years ago
.... Now, we need to get some of these "old lions and lionesses" on both sides to fold up. 'age out" and leave the field to the robust lions and lionesses—on both sides!

Just a quick question....

You believe that all us old people need to get out of the way so the younger and "Wiser" people can have their way?

Is that what your really saying?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.47  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.45    4 years ago

Tessylo 

You will be missed

If you check my comment again I said "you hypocrisy is showing"

As much as you rant and rave I would have thought you had a little thicker skin than to be hurt and offended so easily

As I said you will be missed

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.1.48  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.1.44    4 years ago

calbab

Well I am what society calls a "senior" my wife uses the term "old goat" nut I have intention of getting out of the way and leaving anything to the younger generation just yet 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.49  CB   replied to  Nowhere Man @1.1.46    4 years ago

No, not at all. I am told I am getting up in years myself! HA!

Still, I saw a version of human 'rust' on some of the political players in the Kavanaugh committee hearings! Some were clearly aged, definitely slow, and probably less inspiring. For a moment, I wondered if the media was using HD "tell-all" cameras!

I respect wisdom and seniority in a public official. Equally, I have something of a knack for detecting when somebody has been at "the dance" too long. There are congresspeople on both sides needing to end their 'reigns' on a high note. Don't wait to be shown the door, that is.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.50  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.48    4 years ago

I have recently observed some of the "old ones" in Congress getting caught on pool cameras, walking stooped over with canes, waxing long in 5-minute allowance interviews about their long established "hey-days" before politics, when s/he was private practice this or that, and possibly even losing their trains of thought-midway!

Hardly, much "fire in the belly" left!

It's happening on both sides! Some our "great ones" are simply aging out and in the words of the esteemed Walter Cronkite, "That's the way it is." Note: Many of these "gentlemen and ladies" are simply not personal constitution built to compete with this rogue-ishness that is our present politics. They imagine they can wrestle with a cable news 24/7 cycle each day, and conservative talk jocks, but it is really not in their make up to battle in this manner.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1.51  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1.1.49    4 years ago

Nah, I can't argue with that, there are a few, (how was it said in the old old days....) Oh yes, CREEPERS! yes there are a few old creepers that have been there past their expiration date. I have to agree with that one.

I call us ancient people, and every time I do the wife punches me in the arm..... (and mutters "speak for yourself")

Not ready to give it all up yet.... 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.1.52  CB   replied to  Nowhere Man @1.1.51    4 years ago

Sens. Robert Byrd, Teddy Kennedy, and John McCain all great men despite their respective controversies >> all died while holding Senate seats. What is it about working until you drop-dead?

At this rate, one day not to long from now the 'breaking news' chyron will read: Senator [Insert name here] has been found deceased at [gender] desk in Washington, D.C.

Sad, but oh so possibly true. It happens every day somewhere on the planet, that a hard-working official gives up the 'ghost'! On the other hand, maybe I am being too down in the mouth.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1.53  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1.1.52    4 years ago
On the other hand, maybe I am being too down in the mouth.

maybe so maybe no,

There are a few antiques in every crowd.....

It has more to do with ego rather than any real ideal of contribution....

IMHO that is.....

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.1.54  Nowhere Man  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.38    4 years ago

A Blog does not completely negate the CoC not the TOS, I would suggest reporting it and at least get an idea if what was done was an attack as you claim....

(it really wasn't, but then you will never accept that from me)

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.55  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.1.7    4 years ago

No you don't respect my opinion.  You called me a hypocrite.  

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  CB @1    4 years ago
Be remarkably hot or cold, for lukewarm is simply unremarkable.

For the sake of revelation..... here is where that quote stems from...

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Rev. 3:14-16(ESV)

Straight out of the bible..... your either evil or not..... and how you describe yourself is the deciding factor.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.1  CB   replied to  Nowhere Man @1.2    4 years ago

Noted.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
1.3  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @1    4 years ago
There is so much wrong with this paragraph, in my opinion

No.  He's right. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.1  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3    4 years ago

Jack, have you spend any substantive time looking at the opposite side's point of view? Yes, I am serious.

And please be clear, what is Robert right about?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.3.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.3.1    4 years ago

Calbab

"Robert" is seldom right about anything in its totality and neither is anyone else - I merely pointed that the adversarial system of our democracy has evolved into a winner take all "cage match" which is clearly not in the best interest of the country.

The basis of the severe societal conflicts we face in large part are due to the fact that both sides (or more accurately all sides) must be win and their opponent must lose and my friend that is not how democracy is supposed to work.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.3.3  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.3.1    4 years ago
And please be clear, what is Robert right about?

196

  1. ... been away from NT for quite some time because the constant hate speech, crap slinging and shouting down the other side rather than trying to discuss anything became too annoying to endure.
  2. ... same attitudes, actions and processes existed " in the real world " and on other media platforms (participatory and so-called informative types).
  3. ... there was a loyal opposition rather than a hated enemy to be opposed on every issue simply because "they" advocate for something makes it the wrong choice. There has not been a "loyal opposition" in Washington involved in bipartisan legislative activity for decades and that is a sad commentary on our society and our leaders.
  4. ... everything that is good or bad in our society today is neither to Trump's credit or to be blamed on him and same was true in previous administrations.
  5. "We the people" should be able to disagree without being disagreeable - civility should not be a rarity.
  6. When one side uses the mantra of "free speech" to justify drowning out or refusing to let speak a person with whom they disagree, they present a brand-new definition of stupid.
  7. ... would stand beside you and fight to defend your right to have that position or opinion.
  8. I think that " party line voting " in hopes of a blue wave or a red wave (without regard to the quality and capabilities of the people running) is largely responsible for the sad we face as a nation.
  9. ... not think either choice in those three elections was right for the country.
  10. ... " elections have consequences " - a smart man said that, and he was right.
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.4  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.3.3    4 years ago

My comment was to Jack, taking for granted he knows what he agrees with Robert about; and, for the record I 'blocked' the portion which concerned me most. I am running out now - back later tonight.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.3.5  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.3.4    4 years ago

He can still answer.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
1.3.6  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @1.3.1    4 years ago
Jack, have you spend any substantive time looking at the opposite side's point of view? Yes, I am serious.

I try not to have an "opposite side".  That's a moron's game. 

And please be clear, what is Robert right about?

The verbiage you quoted.  

I didn't vote for Barack Obama.  But he was my president.  I didn't vote for Donald Trump, but he is my president.   

Because I'm an American. 

And I'm a grown-up.

And citing the Book of Revelation referring to politics is a new, alternate form of batshit crazy.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.3.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.6    4 years ago
I didn't vote for Donald Trump, but he is my president.   

He is the president. "My president" implies approval. 

Trump is the worst president in American history. He will never be "my president". 

Keep trying to convince yourself though. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.8  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.3.2    4 years ago

One side is continuing its bang up job of lying, spinning, and propagandizing the rest of us. Look for obvious lies; look for hidden deceptions, you will find offenders inhabiting there. Watch for those groups which are enveloping themselves in symbols of good, while painting others with 'ugly' epitaphs. It is a deployment of transference.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
1.3.9  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.7    4 years ago
"My president" implies approval.

No.  It doesn't.  It states affiliation.

Ever had a boss you didn't like.  Was he still "your" boss?  Ever had a neighbor you didn't like?  Was she still "your" neighbor.  Had a teacher you didn't like?  

If you are American, he is your president.  Done.  Full stop.  

Trump is the worst president in American history.

More batshit melodrama.  He's not even as bad as LBJ.  Not that it matters.  He's still yours.

He will never be "my president". 

Have you renounced your citizenship?  No?  Then he's your president.  Your "feelings" on the matter don't matter. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.3.10  Ender  replied to  CB @1.3.8    4 years ago

Look no further than the continuous articles about how liberal evil mobs are going to attack us all.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.11  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.6    4 years ago

"And I'm a grown-up."

Well, if you have to tell me, I guess you feel I would have missed it? I consider everyone taking time to come to NT to be a grown up.


President Donald Trump is a compulsive liar. Check what fact checkers write about the matter. Liars are dishonest and manipulative people. Presidents and world leaders ought not be compulsive liars. I can not and I will not approve of any leader of any party who behaves as a compulsive liar.

What say you, Jack? Is President Trump a proven daily liar? Have you bothered to check whether it is true?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
1.3.12  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @1.3.11    4 years ago
Well, if you have to tell me, I guess you feel I would have missed it? I consider everyone taking time to come to NT to be a grown up.

Very often they don't act that way.  "Not my president" is the petulant statement of a bratty child not getting their way.

What say you, Jack? Is President Trump a proven daily liar? Have you bothered to check whether it is true?

I can't comment on "daily".  I don't listen to him that often.  I dislike the experience rather intently.  Is he "generally" full of shit?  Oh yeah.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.13  CB   replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.12    4 years ago

You should listen more often, or at least get better informed before you call others here names. Maybe they know what you know not! Professional people write articles about the increasing and compulsive lies of President Donald Trump: You should read some of those article and see if you agree with them, in my opinion.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
1.3.14  Spikegary  replied to  CB @1.3.4    4 years ago

Much as Lenny stated in his own way, tough cookies, you don't get to decide who comments on your comments.

I think that's the first (and probably only) time I have ever agreed with Lenny.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
1.3.15  Spikegary  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.7    4 years ago
He is the president. "My president" implies approval. 

No, it implies that he is the President of the United States, if you are a citizen of the United States, he is your president.

To imply otherwise is a fool's errand.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.16  CB   replied to  Spikegary @1.3.14    4 years ago

And, you wrote this to say what exactly?  My comment was 'tailored' to Jack's pithy comment. That's all.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.4  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1    4 years ago

Another pet peeve of mine is a person talking around an issue or hinting at what his/her position is - in other words if you have something to say in plain language and let's talk about it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.1  TᵢG  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.4    4 years ago
if you have something to say in plain language and let's talk about it.

jrSmiley_79_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.4.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.1    4 years ago

I already did in the posting - perhaps you need to reread it

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.3  TᵢG  replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.4.2    4 years ago

I voted up your post, quoted the part that I applauded and issued a thumbs up icon to boot.

Not sure I could have been more supportive of your position.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
1.4.4  Split Personality  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.3    4 years ago

I just think Robert needs a few days to pick up on the nuances of the site.

It's not even remotely similar to when he was last here.

"it's not your father's Oldsmobile"  lol...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.5  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.4    4 years ago

What does all of this have to do with my title? I think that "party line voting" in hopes of a blue wave or a red wave (without regard to the quality and capabilities of the people running) is largely responsible for the sad we face as a nation. I did not vote for Obama in either election and I did not vote for Trump in 2016 and neither did I vote for the candidate of the "other" major party because I did not think either choice in those three elections was right for the country. But once those elections were over there was no doubt in my mind as who was my president and r who was the president of every other citizen of this country - "elections have consequences" - a smart man said that, and he was right.

Okay, got it. Plain talk is what you ask for - your wish is my command. Let me add that I wish you would stay engaged with your friends and "associate" commenters on NT for the duration.

You did not vote for 12 years of presidential leadership; thus, you are an instance symbolizing a percentage of the citizenry who could not bring himself or herself to push this country in one direction or another. In the case of this country as a whole and its citizens progressing and growing under presidential leadership, a lack of  "all-hands" can be forgiven. However, when political 'indicators' inform the voters that our fundamental system of governance is about to be assaulted by an individual (male or female) who chooses not to display a world-class leadership temperament, but instead possesses a private amoral approach to pushing 350 million plus people forming the world's leading republic in the direction of arbitrary control under one man's unified view of the world, sadly you was MIA.

It is not a smart enough look to imply you played no role in the past ten years, because some truly awful political battles continue to take place in the halls of national and international power and influence. All which help lead this nation of "us" to where we are today with a leader who is in full quest mode for personal unbridled wealth and power.

Brother, if I may, we need you to take a stance for justice sake somewhere this fall election season. Stand with "us."

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.4.6  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Split Personality @1.4.4    4 years ago

Indeed

My apologies to any I offend by my stumbling through the answering of comments process

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
1.4.7  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @1.4.5    4 years ago

calbab

I voted for president in every election for the past four decades plus - I simply did not vote for one of the major party candidates in the last three because I did not think those candidates were what the country needed or represented the policies I wanted pursued.

But once elected I supported and respected the elected president.

I will vote in the fall election and I will vote for some republicans, some democrats and some independents as I do in each election, because I research the candidates their stances on issues important to me and vote for the most qualified (in my view) candidate not the most popular or flamboyant in the mainstream media.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.8  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @1.4.7    4 years ago

Thank you for your future votes in the upcoming elections: May the best candidates for all the citizenry win your support!

I want to draw your attention to something: I do not intend to vote a straight democrat ticket as a fool's errand. Democrats are worth their salt in my area!

Republicans have unified their political futures to President Trump, a leader who bashes, lies, manipulates, and leaves no quarter for his political rivals. (He actually demonizes the mass media while speaking on their platforms: Cameras rolling!). Additionally, Trump seeks to destroy his political rivals—utterly. As I stated above, the lies are this president and the Republican Party's (for example: Rep. Devin Nunes) undoing with me!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  JohnRussell    4 years ago

Robert, I am glad for Newstalkers that you came back. The more the merrier is rarely a bad plan at an internet forum. 

You should be able to find enough "both siders" here to satisfy your urge to see people say they neither hate or love Trump, but rather respect that he is the president. 

A lot of people in this country have lost their sense of expectation about what our political leaders should be made of. 

We can say that with total belief that is true, just by observing how many people are willing to cut Donald Trump slack. A couple weeks ago the NYT printed the result of a 6 months long investigation into the Trump family finances. The Times uncovered a long standing practice of the Trumps, in the 80's and 90's, and for all we know to this day, of tax evasion and tax fraud. In other words it is quite likely that Donald Trump is a criminal. Let's pile that tidbit on top of all his other mountain of personal bad behavior and constant lying, and ..... can you still say Trump is our president and let's just leave him be? 

When oh, when, are "both siders" going to develop some backbone? 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1  CB   replied to  JohnRussell @2    4 years ago

President Donald J. Trump is building a presidential profile right before our eyes. It is this nation of 350 million plus which is learning who he is and how he goes about getting his wins. Trump demonstrates each time he speaks and acts that he is not intending to discover growth in his role as leader of the free world. Our president by sheer force of will (twitter and rallies) is warping the fundamentals of the U.S. presidency into a pretzel-like model of his personal and private mind and worldview. That is, Trump has a "king-complex."

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.1.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @2.1    4 years ago

calbab

Hard to argue about the "king complex" which for me makes it easy to hate his method and attitude even when he accomplishes something I might like

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.1.1    4 years ago

What has he accomplished that you 'might like'?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.1.3  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.2    4 years ago

Well the market has done well and the retirement funds of millions of Americans have increased, unemployment has continued to go down, a lessening of tension on the Korean peninsula

Of course there things that I and others dislike the approach to immigration control for one thing was handled horribly and his incessant need to be on twitter and for it to be about me

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.1.3    4 years ago

As far as those things you might like that would be no, no, and no to all the three things you mentioned.   

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  CB @2.1    4 years ago
That is, Trump has a "king-complex."

True.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.1.6  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.4    4 years ago

Appreciate your perspective 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.1.7  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.1.1    4 years ago

President Donald Trump is tirelessly energetic in pursuing the future politics of this country as though it can is a prize "swept up" and stored on a mantle at the conclusion of a single  presidency. He has virtually set himself apart from any activity which interacts with the past 'paths' charted by other presidents. He attends no gathering where they are; he proposes no venue to be seen with them. His only mention of recent presidents is of shortcomings, or as a step away from some policy begin by them.

Trump takes no stock that any aftermath of his manipulative lies to the citizenry, other nations, and his Machiavellianism will fall on yet another leader to appear to balance out and build out! We do not all have the time remaining to see this country, and by extension the international community, restructured to suit the wishes of a single all-consuming ethical egoist!

I am not against President Trump blindly. President Trump desires to transfer all goodwill upon his activities as a leader, while branding his opposition as scoundrels. Nothing could be farther from the truth! We have to take what this president reveals about himself as who he is and intends to be.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.1.6    4 years ago

No you don't appreciate my perspective.  You called me a hypocrite.  The only perspective you appreciate is your own.  

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @2    4 years ago

John

Nice to hear from you

I can still say Trump is our (yours, mine and every other citizen's) president, but I have never advocated "leaving him" be or anyone else for that matter.   If there is malfeasance it should be exposed and dealt with within the rule of law.

I am sure that "both siders" was meant as an insult, but it was delivered in civil terms and we have know each for a while so I will accept it as a positive.

Because a "both sider' in my view is a person that is willing to work with the other side in the interest of accomplishing something (even if it is not all that either side wants), even if it means allowing the opposition to accomplish something to brag about as well.  I see that "both sider" as a public servant rather than a professional politician (be it democrat or republican) that is more interested in getting something done for the country than getting reelected.  I see that "both sider" as one who listens and contemplates the issue rather than deciding before the process begins which way they will vote on an issue.

So like I said. I know you meant "both sider" as an insult but I and many Americans who want the two sides to work together have plenty of backbone and unlike the hyper-partisans on the right and the left, we also have common sense and a love of country that drives us.

Again good to hear from you again

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2    4 years ago

If Donald Trump has accomplished so much that benefits the country why has he never had an approval rating above 45% (and usually quite a bit lower)?

Of course one can argue whether or not some of what Trump has done is good for the country. A tax break that gave the vast percentage of the proceeds to the rich does not benefit most American people. The way Trump has handled the health care issue has not benefited the American people. His Supreme Court appointees were both controversial, partisan, and only "benefited" those who share the political ideology of the new justices. Since the majority of Americans opposed the confirmation of Kavanaugh according to polls, we can fairly assume that most Americans don't think his place on the Court is a "good thing". 

Trump has done more than any single individual, or many individuals combined, to destroy the faith Americans have in their law enforcement and intelligence institutions. He has also destroyed the dignity of the office of the president (although that could be temporary once he leaves). 

He is not a good guy. To the contrary he is obviously a psychologically disturbed narcissist and fabulist. Republicans should have rejected him from the first time he called his opponents "Little Marco" or said no one would vote for a face like Carly Fiorino's. And a thousand other "Trumpism's" that nauseate decent people. 

You assert yourself as a traditionalist. In the face of Trump's endless assault on the truth and on the dignity of his office, and because he is very likely a criminal on multiple levels, why aren't you calling on him to resign tomorrow? 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.1    4 years ago

John 

I did not vote for trump, I am not a Trump supporter (in a political sense) - you cannot seem to grasp that so I thought it bore repeating.

I think consensus governing is what the government needs - both sides giving a little to get a little.  We did not have that under GW Bush, we did not have that under Obama and we do not have that under Trump.

All three created divides in America and widened existing divides in the country.

I did not call for Bush to resign (though many did because of the controversial election), I did not call for Obama to resign (though many did because he was "not their president" and I haven't advocated Trump resign either.  Elections have consequences and unforeseen and unintended consequences - we correct those through subsequent elections. 

If the President were to resign, the I would view President Pence as my president even though I didn't vote for him either.  I also think that my friends on the left might be a little more wary as a Pence presidency would be much more uniting on the right and the conservative agenda might well advanced more quickly than President Trump has done with a splintered republican party in Congress.  And lastly I support the investigative process and the rule of law and if and when evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors is presented I will support the process of an impeachment trial in the Senate.

I was not supportive of Kagan or Sotomayor (thinking both were a little too left for me) for the SCOTUS but when they were confirmed, I did not lose my mind and bearing I accepted that they were on the SCOTUS and moved on as did millions of Americans.  I felt that Garland should have gotten at least a hearing before the judicial committee but he did not.  And when Reid changed the rules on judicial appointment vote requirements to further the Obama court agenda I was certain and so stated that those on the left would rue the day he did that because the 50 vote requirement would most certainly be extended to the SCOTUS when a crucial appointment could be made.

I like how the market has done, the unemployment rate continues to drop or at least remain low and wages are starting to improve (though too slowly) and I think that many in the middle class benefited from the tax cuts though there was a skew to the wealthy.  I think progress (albiet in an unconventional manner) has been on the Korean peninsula.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.2    4 years ago

It is highly likely Trump is a criminal on many fronts. The New York Times essentially proved that he took part in his mother and father defrauding on taxes. It is also likely that there are many more Trump financial crimes sitting on a tree somewhere like ripe fruit waiting to be picked. He obstructed justice in the Russian probe.  The New York Times has a new story saying that Kushner hasn't paid income tax in many years

Kushner Paid No Federal Income Tax for Years, Documents ...

https:// www.nytimes.com /2018/10/13/business/jared- kushner - taxes .html

Oct 13, 2018  · Confidential documents reviewed by The Times indicate that Jared Kushner , President Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, probably paid little or no income tax from 2009 to 2016. Jared Kushner

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OK, maybe it was legal, although not befitting a national "leader" in any way shape or form. But we should be having the entire lot of them investigated for financial crimes. Donald, DonJr., Eric, Ivanka, and Jared.  Trump's father taught him to be a crook and it is highly likely Trump has taught his children to do the same. 

People like you enable this sort of thing by your disinterest. 

Trump and his clan are not fit to serve the people of this great nation. You don't become fit just because you got the most electoral votes. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2.4  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.3    4 years ago

John

The key point you make is that "it is highly likely" not that it has been proven or someone has been charged ..

I respect that you hate Trump and think he is unfit to serve and once that is legally establish I will support his leaving office

I think what I missed most in my sabbatical was your assertions like "people like you"

Thanks for at least being consistent

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.4    4 years ago

Just about everyone on Newstalkers knows I am not fond of the "both sides are the same" political philosophy we see from some in America. 

Trump is like NO ONE else we have ever seen. He is easily the worst president we have ever had. He is dishonest, immoral, and basically a policy ignoramus.  Excuse me for expecting everyone to be repelled by his characteristics. 

But some people love blaming everything on "both sides" so much they end up enabling the travesty in the presidency. 

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
2.2.6  lennylynx  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.1    4 years ago
"...why aren't you calling on him to resign tomorrow?"

Good question, why aren't all the 'centrists' doing this, hell, there are literally millions of STAUNCH CONSERVATIVES who are.  Every person with a functioning brain in their head wants Trump gone YESTERDAY.  And no Robert, opposition to the insane megalomaniac in the White House has NOTHING to do with left/right politics, nothing whatsoever.  Support of the lunatic by the Republicans, however, has EVERYTHING to do with politics.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
Masters Expert
2.2.7  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.3    4 years ago
OK, maybe it was legal, although not befitting a national "leader" in any way shape or form.

So, what you want is that no one ever take advantage of the laws as written as at some point in the future they might run for office.

Are you going to volunteer to be the first to not use the tax law to your advantage?

Will YOU forego any and all deductions, exemptions, exclusions and credits and pay taxes STRICTLY on GROSS INCOME?

Until your're willing to do that, your disdain and umbrage truly ring hollow.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
Masters Expert
2.2.8  XDm9mm  replied to  lennylynx @2.2.6    4 years ago
Support of the lunatic by the Republicans, however, has EVERYTHING to do with politics.

Sorry to disappoint you Lenny.....   I'm independent and support the POLICIES he is implementing.

Him?  He's loud and obnoxious, but that's his style.  Trying to change that is like trying to change the stripes of a tiger.

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
2.2.9  PJ  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.1    4 years ago

John - Don't waste your time.  He's another one pretending to be a centrist.  I love the ones that "claim" they didn't vote for him and they hate how he behaves "but the stock market is doing so well".  They are happy to look the other way while our country goes to shit.  

RIO will fit right in on this site with all it's modifications to protect those on the right and their alternative facts.  You better be nice to the Trump supporter....... 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2.10  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.5    4 years ago

Actually John I blamed the inability of the two major parties to work together on anything for the state of affairs in this country.

Neither side have anyone that inspired the people in the last election is what enabled President Trump to be elected - more people voted against Clinton than voted against Trump ergo he won.

And Trump won the nomination because no one else inspired the republican party goers

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2.11  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.10    4 years ago

You need to read the article and my comments more closely and slowly - I am not a Trump supporter, nor did I vote for him.  I do accept that he was elected president and respect the office that he holds.

I like some things that he has accomplished but abhor his manner and tactics (I said that before as well).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
2.2.12  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.2    4 years ago

Nobody should be complaining about making good clean money. However, dirty, dishonest, trickery, deceit, and criminal tactics are what get crime bosses, crime families, and gangsters charged with RICO conspiracies and racketeering. It is not too much to ask our government leaders to not operate at a base moral level, do you think?

What Mitch McConnell has been doing is shifty and underhanded to a fellow grouping of politicians. Scalia died early in 2017. Mitch McConnell squelched on the spriiti of the Constitution's Advice and Consent. Personally, I have no doubt that he picked up support and commentary to do so from all the conservative jocks on 24/7 conservative talk radio. They literally run congress from their 'silo-booths' scattered about the country!

Moreover, were the same tactics deployed against any conservative federal judge picks-McConnell would have been justified to call it out for what it is: shifty and underhanded tactics designed to take away the advantage of the political party in charge - at the time.

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
2.2.13  Spikegary  replied to  PJ @2.2.9    4 years ago

Rude and judgmental, but hey, the left is always right, just ask them.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
2.2.14  Colour Me Free  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.11    4 years ago
I am not a Trump supporter, nor did I vote for him.  I do accept that he was elected president and respect the office that he holds.

It has been my observation during the past year that I have been on this site .. that if one is not disavowing, calling names and screaming for impeachment, then one is a supporter of the current president ...

Some even 'seem' to feel that 'Independent thinkers, fence sitters / both siders' are in denial of actually being Trump supporters, because of the afore mentioned not disavowing, calling names and screaming for impeachment.... 

Partisanship rules, one must choose a side …. truth be damn'd is the battle cry ...

P.s... heads up, the sky can be falling at any minute …. I do have an extra sky is falling proof umbrella handy if you find you need one...

Peace

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
2.2.16  PJ  replied to  Spikegary @2.2.13    4 years ago

Well then I bet you just love me since I'm mirroring what Mr. Trump does and you just think he's the cat's meow.  

Bottom line:  You're just pissed because you guys want to be a$$holes to everyone and treat people like shit but you can't take it when it's reciprocated.  Then you want to talk about civility and let's be nice to each other, we're one America, both sides do it.  

Lies, lies, lies.  You guys have really embraced trumpism and his love of lies and alternative facts.

This is your "great america"......

Oh, but hey, the stock market is doing well.......  that's all it is with you guys.  money money money, lording over women's bodies and guns.  

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
2.2.17  TTGA  replied to  PJ @2.2.16    4 years ago
You're just pissed because you guys want to be a$$holes to everyone and treat people like shit but you can't take it when it's reciprocated.  Then you want to talk about civility and let's be nice to each other, we're one America, both sides do it.  

PJ,

First, you can spell assholes here.  This is not NV or Facebook.  The system will block it for the delicate or faint of heart. 

Next, I don't think that any Republicans have tried to destroy someone with nothing but rumors to back them up (uncorroborated statements are nothing but rumors) since Senator McCarthy (who, it turns out, may actually have been right).

but hey, the stock market is doing well.......  that's all it is with you guys.  money money money,

Where do you think jobs come from, dropped from Heaven?  Private enterprise creates jobs, and that means the stock market.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
2.2.18  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Colour Me Free @2.2.14    4 years ago

I would be very interested in that umbrella

jrSmiley_7_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
2.2.19  Colour Me Free  replied to    4 years ago
If it weren't for the politics of retribution, the current two-party system in their co-dependent malaise would have absolutely nothing to run on.

Excellent point, politics is all about voting against - seems there is nothing any longer to vote for on the nation level.  Look at what is happening with Senator Susan Collins - 'we' must rise up as women and be against her .. for voting her conscience .. ?

to align yourself with either effete group that arrogantly claims to know what is your best interest is to diminish the importance of your vote today or going forward.

In 2008 I assisted my 90 + year old grandmother to fill out her ballot … I was going over Initiatives with her .. telling her the pro and cons so she could make an informed decision - it came time to discuss candidates and their positions on issues .. she cut me off and told me that she would vote a straight republican ticket .. she said that my grandfather had told her to vote that way .. 

My heart sank, that kind of thinking does not compute for me, I have never voted a straight ticket ….. her ill informed votes for candidates she knew nothing about could have actually resulted in those individuals winning ….  solely based on partisanship..

Playing to the ignorant, easily agitated fringe has brought us to this point...can anyone be satisfied with the result?

Define anyone … as there seem to many that are satisfied on both sides of the divide … the sky is falling is a tried and true way of keeping many in line and thinking the worst...

P.s.... you know where I keep Soapbox - feel free to take her out of the stall anytime .. she enjoys a good run : )

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
2.2.20  Colour Me Free  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.18    4 years ago

I will get it ready to ship!  : )

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
2.2.21  PJ  replied to  TTGA @2.2.17    4 years ago

Thanks but I like using the dollar signs.  It makes me feel like I'm spending someone else's money.  hahahahaha

Jobs come primarily from small businesses but I appreciate the alternative facts.....they always make me chuckle.  

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
2.2.22  Colour Me Free  replied to  Colour Me Free @2.2.19    4 years ago

Oooops ….

Good morning Razing - hope your weekend was sweet .. 

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
2.2.23  PJ  replied to  Colour Me Free @2.2.20    4 years ago

Send boots too! 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.25  Tessylo  replied to  Robert in Ohio @2.2.10    4 years ago
'more people voted against Clinton than voted against Trump ergo he won.'

Untrue.  Almost three million more people voted for Hillary than the Rump.  

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
2.2.27  Spikegary  replied to  PJ @2.2.16    4 years ago

It's funny how you talk like you know me and my beliefs, which you do not, my little fake middle of the roader (yes, I remember before the 2016 election).

The 'I'm doing it becuase he is doing it' is a childish game.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
2.2.28  Colour Me Free  replied to    4 years ago
.only ensuring the continued bi-partisan spiral to dysfunction...the only thing in which they have common ground.

It is a race to the bottom...!  Will the winner take all when the bottom is reached?

Soapbox is deserving of a more competent rider, perhaps the offer of a good brush down and a crisp apple will suffice...

Perhaps I will take Soapbox out for a ride late, someone is bound to mention trees  ………….. bring Granny Smith's : )

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.29  JohnRussell  replied to  TTGA @2.2.17    4 years ago

Last night Lesley Stahl of 60 Minutes asked Trump about Christine Ford. Trump said that he thought Ford had been treated well by the Republicans.

But what about you, Stahl asked Trump. Do you think you treated her well? You seemed to be saying she was lying. 

I do said Trump, who then immediately realized how insincere that sounded. 

It doesn't matter he said. We won. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.30  Tessylo  replied to    4 years ago

Huh?

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
2.2.32  PJ  replied to  Spikegary @2.2.27    4 years ago

I've been here long enough to know you probably jerk off each night to Trump's picture.  

You are right about one thing.   I used to be in the middle of the road and tried looking at things from a different perspective but it was NEVER reciprocated.  It was viewed as a weakness by many on this site.  You guys shouted down and made fun of those who tried to be middle of the road.  

I learned after trump supporters voted into office the most vulgar POS this country has shit out that you prefer vulgarity and incivility.  You think it's a sign of intelligence and strength. hahahahaha

Now you want to hold hands and sing songs?  Sorry - I'm not that gullible.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3  Vic Eldred    4 years ago

Bob, I only hope you can last a while

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
3.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    4 years ago

Vic

Me too cause I do enjoy the debate

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
4  Dismayed Patriot    4 years ago

"When one side uses the mantra of "free speech" to justify drowning out or refusing to let speak a person with whom they disagree, they present a brand-new definition of stupid."

I agree, up to a point. If after WWII no one shouted down or vocally, vehemently disagreed with Nazism and the genocide of so many people, don't you think that kind of racist populism could arise again far to easy? If no one pushed back on the lies of racial superiority and eugenics, don't you think it would be far more likely humanity would see a repeat of such depravity? So while everyone should feel like they have a chance to express themselves, once they express themselves everyone else has the right to tell them what complete pieces of shit they are for believing in such fascist or racist bullshit. Free speech doesn't mean consequence-free speech. If you tell me you think all Jews and Atheists should be rounded up into concentration camps, then I'll tell you what I think about your disgusting vile piece of shit opinion and I'll tell everyone else what you said you wanted to do, that's my right to free speech.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
4.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    4 years ago

He isn't rejecting the right to free speech, just the violent, degrading and bigoted manner of some in going about it....

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
4.1.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Nowhere Man @4.1    4 years ago
just the violent, degrading and bigoted manner of some in going about it...

When you're responding to a large crowd waving swastika flags chanting "Jews will not replace us!" you don't simply say "Well, while your opinion is just as valid as any one else's, we of course want to support equality for all.". No, you stand up to them and shout back "Fuck you, you piece of shit anti-Semites!". Playing patty cake with such bigots led to the genocides we saw in the last century.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
4.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1.1    4 years ago

I think you misread my posting.

And I react to and reject the vile bigoted shit around here just as much as the next guy... thankfully there is a lot less of it nowadays....

Of course we want everyone to have their legal rights, and that gives the Nazi's and any other vile organization the right to spew their crap. It isn't me that's saying this it's the ACLU that made that argument.

But in making that argument it gives us the right to spew right back..... which should be natural for any real american...

And I absolutely agree that "playing pattycake" ah what did they call it? "APPEASEMENT" yes that was the term killed millions...

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.1.3  Drakkonis  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1.1    4 years ago
No, you stand up to them and shout back "Fuck you, you piece of shit anti-Semites!".

I can't agree with that. Growing up, I remember like, two minute news items where there were a bunch of sad sacks standing around in their Nazi uniforms or white bedsheets and having a "rally". Kinda stupid, really, because pretty much everyone ignored them. Nobody showed up to protest or anything. They were ignored for so long that they sort of just faded away. That, and they pretty much did stupid stuff eventually and landed in jail or had all their stuff taken by the government. 

Today, we have a bunch of fanatics giving them what they've always desired. Attention. Worse, they seem to be trying to push as many people into the Nazi camp as they can. That is, anyone who isn't as fanatical as they are must be a Nazi, too. They seem to be making an extra super effort to paint conservatives as closet Nazis. If someone doesn't toe the radical left wing line, then they're Nazis. 

And, of course, there is the extreme right that is basically doing the same thing. Any Democrat is a Socialist with Anarchistic leanings. I swear, it's as if there is someone behind the scenes trying to cause a civil war in this country. We're letting ourselves be pushed into voting for the most radical candidate out of a sense of self preservation or something. Where's the candidate that is saying we can take the best of both sides of the isle and make something work? Where the hell is the common sense???

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
4.1.4  Colour Me Free  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1.3    4 years ago
Growing up, I remember like, two minute news items where there were a bunch of sad sacks standing around in their Nazi uniforms or white bedsheets and having a "rally". Kinda stupid, really, because pretty much everyone ignored them.
Today, we have a bunch of fanatics giving them what they've always desired. Attention.

This is something that I have tried to point out .. by giving Nationalists attention, shouting them down .. blocking their 'permitted' marches, endeavoring in anyway to interfere with 'their' right to free speech - is a recruiting tool, by reinforcing that the 'white' man is under attack....  The radical extremist 'hate' groups such as those that rant about Jew's will not replace us, are a minority, given front page primetime coverage for their asininities - all they know how to do is chant and march in a line! 

Where was the anger towards the KKK, neo Nazis and nationalist during their protest over the removal of the confederate flag from the Capitol Building in South Carolina? (The KKK and the neo-Nazis were there protesting) There was no opposition, no anger, no outrage .. why?  Could it be because the agenda of hate was not yet fully developed by the opposition?  

 Where's the candidate that is saying we can take the best of both sides of the isle and make something work? Where the hell is the common sense???

The likes of Senator John McCain have passed on, or are retiring … now the 'both sider' is condemned for not towing a partisan line!  One such individual is now considered to be a traitor to her gender, and even being accused of corruption (?)

 
 
 
XDm9mm
Masters Expert
4.1.5  XDm9mm  replied to  Colour Me Free @4.1.4    4 years ago
Could it be because the agenda of hate was not yet fully developed by the opposition?  

BINGO!!!   They didn't have the time to exploit those events, so the "protesters" simply marched around waving their Confederate flags and went home when all was said and done.

Now, the 'machine' has had the time and opportunities to organize and galvanize their base against any that don't think and act in lock step with THEIR concept of right and wrong.  Forget that those they essentially hate, have the right to their opinion and belief, their haters will shout them down and confront them unless and until they acquiesce to the haters demands to cease and desist.

What is truly disturbing is that it is no longer just some individual radical inciting others, now, it's effectively the national leaders inciting the entire base.   

They really don't understand the damage they're doing and the threat they're creating.

Oh...   HI COLOUR!!!    Hope your day is going well!!

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
4.1.6  Colour Me Free  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.5    4 years ago

Hi XD .. Having a great day, thanks for asking .. hope you are as well...

BINGO!!! They didn't have the time to exploit those events, so the "protesters" simply marched around waving their Confederate flags and went home when all was said and done.

There was NO issue to exploit .. there still is no issue to exploit - Nationalists, white supremist, neo-Nazi, kkk (I use small letters because the 'organization' is nothing any longer!) have always been doing what they are doing .. they have always marched, have been big supporters of free speech (which some now believe is all hate speech so needs to be 'controlled') .. definitely voted (prob more consistently than the average America) … it has just been years since anyone paid attention to them …………………. Along comes the likes of Trump .. and now there is an issue, as 'these people' may / do support Trump … these organizations membership consists of marginalized individuals - many do not know what they, themselves even believe in, they just found a 'family' .. people that take them in and care for them … 

There is NO more hate coming from the right than there is from the left .. 

What is truly disturbing is that it is no longer just some individual radical inciting others, now, it's effectively the national leaders inciting the entire base.    They really don't understand the damage they're doing and the threat they're creating.

Tis a very busy 2 way street for sure … the leadership (elected officials) that are stepping forward and speaking out (on the 'right') are retiring .. speaking their minds as they walk away, what is that accomplishing?  A friend of mine thinks that Flake will make a bid for the presidency .. unless he plans to run against Trump in 2020, why retire now?

I cannot comment at this time about the 'happenings' on the left and their base of supporters, I do not know where their limits are at this time - seems as though 'no holds barred' is here to stay …………….. I can however comment about the Montana Democrats .. they are organized and working hard to keep Tester in the Senate - for Montana's sake I have to agree with them ...

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
4.1.7  Spikegary  replied to  Colour Me Free @4.1.6    4 years ago

My closest friend is a Motor Coach Operator in Virginia, he was in D.C. on Inauguration Day with a bus load of High Schoolers and their chaperones and his bus was attacked by 'protesters' (on the left side of the equation). The protesters broke a mirror, a windshield and spray painted 'Jew' on the sde of his bus.  One has to wonder why these left side of the argument people decided on spray painting the word 'Jew' on the bus?  Tyrying to blame extremisim on one side of the equation doesn't hold water.  Extremists are just that.  They are on both sides of the argument.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
4.1.8  Colour Me Free  replied to  Spikegary @4.1.7    4 years ago
My closest friend is a Motor Coach Operator in Virginia, he was in D.C. on Inauguration Day with a bus load of High Schoolers and their chaperones and his bus was attacked by 'protesters' (on the left side of the equation).  ...
Extremists are just that.  They are on both sides of the argument.

There appear to be those that see a BIG difference between what 'their side' does to incite violent behavior and what the opposition does.. wearing masks and carrying baseball bats is different than wearing a hood and carrying a torch...?   it would seem as though both have hate in their hearts..... yet those in the masks claim the high ground as defenders of what 'they see' as wrong (racism is wrong) .. young people attending President Trumps inauguration was apparently wrong as well ……..?

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
4.1.9  Spikegary  replied to  Colour Me Free @4.1.8    4 years ago

Everyone that has ever worn a hood or a mask have thought they were right.  The fact that they aren't never even crosses their minds.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Quiet
4.1.10  Colour Me Free  replied to  Spikegary @4.1.9    4 years ago

Good point .. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
4.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    4 years ago

 Then do you agree that conservative or pro-Israel speakers get banned or shouted down on university campuses?  Is that your idea of "free speech"?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
4.2.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @4.2    4 years ago
Then do you agree that conservative or pro-Israel speakers get banned or shouted down on university campuses?  Is that your idea of "free speech"?

I have no problem with "conservatives" or "pro-Israel" speakers and don't think they should be banned from anywhere. I do accept that each school gets to decide who to offer their soap box to and believe its every students right to stand out front and protest if they believe the message the conservative or pro-Israel speaker is selling is divisive or destructive.

You may think I'm somehow against "pro-Israel" groups but you'd be wrong, I have no problem with them. I am against anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian speakers who trash their neighbors claiming some imagined right to the land as if it truly were a divinely "promised land" for Israelite's while denying other native peoples a right to the land they were born into. I do not condone the violence that many Palestinians have used in their fight for their independence, but the same goes for the Israelis. Sadly, both sides are stubborn ideologues who refuse to even recognize the concept of "compromise".

And if some anti-Palestinian/pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli/pro-Israeli speaker comes to a college and the students there boycott them and protest, that's their right and their free speech to do so. None of them are denying the speaker their free speech, they are simply denying them a specific soap box from which they wish to disseminate their speech, and there is no guaranteed right to every soap box.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
4.2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.2.1    4 years ago
"Sadly, both sides are stubborn ideologues who refuse to even recognize the concept of "compromise"."

Unfortunately, your attempt to be neutral in the conflict ignores certain realities.  While the Palestinians have NEVER compromised one iota, Israel, in attempting to satisfy Palestinian demands, has, as demanded for them to come to the table, released hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinian prisoners who had blood on their hands (some returning to murder again), given up land for peace (vacated ancestral Jewish residents from their homes in Gaza, removing them BY FORCE), returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt for a peace deal, provided an 11 month moratorium on settlement building that was demanded by the Palestinians or else they would not come to the table and THEN when that moratorium was to expire the Palestinians would not come to the table unless it was extended (and probably would keep demanding more extensions), and the Palestinians WERE offered first 95% of their demands, which they walked away from, and then later 97% of their demands, and STILL walked away.  The Palestinians also make demands that will NEVER be granted, such as refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish State (whereas they have already declared that if they get their state it will be made a JUDENREIN Islamic State - do you know what "Judenrein" means?  It's a word used by the Nazis.)  And the Palestinians demand the return of ALL "refugees" (meaning all their descendants as well) to Israel which, as a democratic nation, would lose the majority ensuring it to be the Jewish nation it was created to be.

Now, perhaps you need to know a little more about the legal and historical basis of why ALL of Israel, including Judea and Samaria (but not the Golan heights which were only conquered in a defensive war when Syria attacked Israel, which legally means "to the winner goes the spoils") belongs to Israel:

Both Bob Nelson (in a four-part article posted on NV and again here) and KPR37 have provided the historical and legal evidence ESTABLISHING the right for Israel to be a Jewish State. They both did a lot of research before posting.  What research have you done, or are you just impressed with the propaganda spread by the Palestinians and Hamas terrorist organizations?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
4.3  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4    4 years ago

Dismayed Patriot

I also dislike the use of hyperbole for hyperbole's sake - I am sure your are familiar with Godwin's Law and the concept of Reductio ad Hitlerum

The absurd idea that you should not allow a person with whom you disagree to give a speech, or have his dinner in a restaurant in peace is a far cry from what you describe. 

Discuss and the debate the issue at hand do not attempt to obscure it with hyperbole is always a good approach

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
5  pat wilson    4 years ago

Glad to see you back, Robert. As I recall you often brought thoughtful discourse to this site.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  pat wilson @5    4 years ago

Agreed Pat, I just hope the vile side of the site doesn't drive him away again...

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
5.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  pat wilson @5    4 years ago

Pat

Thanks for the kind words and I look forward to discussing issues with you

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6  Buzz of the Orient    4 years ago

It's good to have you return, Robert.

Having lived close to but not in the USA for most of my life, and having travelled throughout the USA so often from the time I was 15 or 16 years old, and still observing it from afar, I feel I can be a little more objective about the change you describe than most Americans, and I agree with you completely.  I could see it changing steadily, and to me it became noticeable from the time JFK was assassinated.  I don't agree that the present incivility started only when Trump was elected, but it surely has blossomed since then.

I noted that you said this:

"...just walking about in our sleepy village taking pictures."

How about posting some for us to see?

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
6.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6    4 years ago

Buzz

Howdy!

You, Perrie, AMac and some others were sorely missed during my sabbatical from online debate - but here I go again.

I have not totally figured out the whole site and how to post pictures in an article is something I am still exploring, but trust me I will share some, though I am no where near the photographer that you and AMac are.

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
6.1.1  TTGA  replied to  Robert in Ohio @6.1    4 years ago
I have not totally figured out the whole site and how to post pictures in an article is something I am still exploring,

Robert,

Get with me on Private Notes (present name for internal E-Mails) and I'll be glad to walk you through the process.  It's not too hard.  After a couple of times you'll be able to blaze right through it.  NOTE:  We also can now post videos without going through YouTube.  Raven Wing has a blog showing how to do it.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Robert in Ohio @6.1    4 years ago

The black banner at the top of the page has a category called "HELP".  Click it, and then check out my essay on "How To Prepare and Post a Photo-Essay".   

If you have a problem fitting the photos to the page, Raven Wing also posted instrucitons there on how to adjust your photo size on the page. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @6    4 years ago
having travelled throughout the USA so often from the time I was 15 or 16 years old, and still observing it from afar, I feel I can be a little more objective about the change you describe than most Americans,

Buzz, you are one of the most unobjective people concerning America that I have seen. You are onsessed with decrying political correctness, which evidently led you to support Trump. You're lost. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
6.2.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2    4 years ago

John

If someone or some side lost than someone won - who exactly won?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Robert in Ohio @6.2.1    4 years ago

I didnt say his political side lost, I said he is lost. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
6.2.3  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.2    4 years ago

What did he lose?  And are you sure that Buzz supported Trump?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.2.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2.2    4 years ago
I didn't say his political side lost, I said he is lost. 

He does mostly side with conservatives, though he is a Canadian living in China, so his support for Trump may be a bit overstated.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6.2.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @6.2    4 years ago

John, your accusations of members, and especially me, of being Trump supporters are really getting tiresome. The only thing I support Trump for is his attitude towards and activities for Israel.  Previous presidents didn't have the guts or balls to do what was passed for them to do by Congress in moving the embassy to Jerusalem.  If UNRWA is not cut down it will eventually bankrupt the whole world, and I sure as hell agree with his cutting as much aid to the Palestinians as they use to fund terrorists and their families.  I never supported his trade war, you SAW that I pointed out his "victory" over Kim was false, I don't respect his treatment of women, expecting Mexico to pay for the wall is some kind of joke, etc etc.  But you STILL insist that I support him. 

Well, I suppose if a person can't spell words like "obsession" right it's a sign of something.

And it should be obvious to everyone, even you, that I am in a position to be more objective about what's happening in America than you are.  I see the polarization, you actually apply it.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
7  Perrie Halpern R.A.    4 years ago

Welcome back, Robert. You were always the breath of fresh air here. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
7.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @7    4 years ago

Perrie

Thanks you were always a calming force in the storms of crap slinging and shouting down - I am glad to be participating again

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8  Kavika     4 years ago

Hi RIO and welcome back.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
8.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Kavika @8    4 years ago

Kavika

Another old friend - thanks for the welcome!

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
9  Hal A. Lujah    4 years ago

Both sides of the political spectrum used to be able to agree on certain maxims, such as white supremacy is intolerable, and this country was built on a foundation of immigrants.  When that started to unravel, the fuse was lit.  From then on out every typical difference of opinion became inflamed tenfold.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
9.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @9    4 years ago

Hal

I agree that "we the people" have lost our way in many areas - we have left the governing to the professional politicians focused on other things and as we have done that the "public servants" who served the people have been replaced by political professionals (conservative, liberal, socialist, democrat, republican, et al) who no longer care what is best for the country and the common man but rather they care about getting reelected and that means paying homage (legislatively speaking) to those that give them money for campaigns.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.1  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @9.1    4 years ago
Be remarkably hot or cold, for lukewarm is simply unremarkable.

There is that damaging and destructive activity called gerrymandering. It is destroying open-ness. As elected politicians are cradled by gerrymandering or conversely live in dread of it! Gerrymandering is at once a politician's private hell on Earth!

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
10  freepress    4 years ago

We can all thank Karl Rove for starting the biggest wave of incivility in politics with his "divide and conquer" strategies that gave us Bush with everything from the type of voter suppression tactics that took place during both Bush elections, from the "hanging chad" debacle to the faulty Diebold voting machines in Ohio and all the scandals that cropped up with the Rove trash talk machine emboldening outside money to jump into the fray.

From "swift boating" ads to any PAC or corporation willing to dump truckloads of cash into negative campaign ads that are full of out and out lies, misinformation, or character assassination, we saw it all fired up with Rove.

The "tea party" took it one step further, Fox is complicit in embracing and spreading lies and division, and right wingers embrace every conspiracy theory and conspiracy theorist out there if the false flags support their views. Lies do not matter to them.

Rover ushered in what we see today which is Rovian tactics of divide and conquer on steroids and the right wing seems to be in a trance with all their blind faith and hope in a lying, cheating, reality show host happy to divide all of us even further if he can profit from the process.

Take for example, Trump and Republicans just OPENLY revealed they are SELLING or RENTING all their 200 million names collected from Republican campaigns, every voter that ever donated to the GOP, they are giving to the highest bidder for whatever purpose.

Still even when Republicans and Trump openly flaunt their own disregard for their own base voters, noting will change their minds.

When Gianforte was jailed and charged for knocking down a reporter, the right wing cheered. There are dozens of similar incidents at Trump events where even his own staff was charged with assault.

How can there ever be civility when you look at Trump's transcripts, videos, and the kind of violent negative behavior Trump himself supports? 

Civility can only return when we have a civil leader. The attacks on Obama were indeed racially motivated and now look at the state of things. 

The right wing got a Republican majority, the right wing holds all 3 branches of government, the right wing has the powerful news network in Fox news, yet they whine, they get angry. OVER WHAT?? They got everything they wanted. Why are they so angry?

It's the right wing hoping to stay divided so they can hate anyone who will not agree with them. They are brainwashed to this comfortable familiar pattern that Karl Rove ushered in and now Trump uses to keep them down and from ever crossing the divide to even listen to other points of view. It is just a finger pointing campaign and it will never stop until the spell is broken and new money, new ideas and new politicians stop using Americans as tools.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
10.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  freepress @10    4 years ago

Well you certainly have clear views on what is wrong and who is to blame but nothing about how to fix it ...another symtptom of what is wrong in society today in my view.

You cannot hope for consensus, civility in discourse and government and a shared vision when a main premise you share is that "we are correct" and "they are wrong".

Also you mention that "It's the right wing hoping to stay divided so they can hate anyone who will not agree with them." - well I am no expert but it sounds like you have a pretty strong hate on for those that you disagree with, so that makes you part of the problem rather than part of the solution, correct?

I agree with you that Fox News is totally biased, but so too are CNN, MSNBC etc etc etc - objectivity in news coverage has largely gone away and many people on the right and the left like it that way - another sad commentary on our society and its approach to governance.

I appreciate the feedback and the chance to respond

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.1  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @10.1    4 years ago

I'll take a stab at what I consider you are trying to state. If I get it wrong - set me straight! The problem with cable news is the analyses and opinion shows-whether than straight and hard-hitting news. On the otherhand, a side-effect of 24/7 broadcasting is management soon learns it has to divvy up the format—leading to other shows of interests to its broadcast audiences. It was inevitable that one day cable news networks would find themselves in this predicament! Of trading slow, tedious, dragging molasses investigative stories, for soundbites, glitz, and 'celebrity' anchors calling the shots!

 
 
 
Spikegary
Junior Participates
10.1.2  Spikegary  replied to  CB @10.1.1    4 years ago

The Weather Channel actually does it best with shows like 'Highway Through Hell'.  Much more interesting than seeing the weather endlessly repeated or some talking head explaining his/her political point of view and trying to pass it off as news....be it Fox, CNN, MSNBC, etc., etc.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.3  CB   replied to  Spikegary @10.1.2    4 years ago

The difference there is format. The Weather Channel audience is outdoorsy - 'out there.' The cable news channels, which should be all of available stories have narrowed themselves to politics all the time. It has been a boon and a curse to all their audiences. Because, we tune in for the politics and what we get back is a superabundance of political gamesmanship.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
10.1.4  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CB @10.1.1    4 years ago

good points

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
10.1.5  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Spikegary @10.1.2    4 years ago

Spikegary

totally agree and I love the weather channel 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.6  CB   replied to  Robert in Ohio @10.1.4    4 years ago

Now let me be even clearer. There is truth and plenty of it being shared by cable news outlets.  Moreover, it is telling when a president known for his appetite for daily lies, chooses a specific news outlet (FOX NEWS) as his preeminent conveyor of presidential office commentary. We have to tell the truth and shame the devil, Robert!

CNN and MSNBC, major cable news carriers, are not opposed to making money and acquiring great ratings, but both outlets drew lines at the outright and bold lies daily dripping from the lips of this President. FOX NEWS bathed in the ratings bonanza of Trumpism as long as it was a winning force. Now, I hear even they are getting weary of Trump over. . . something.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Principal
11  MrFrost    4 years ago

At the end of the day, I think both parties want what is best for the country. The problem is that both parties have different ideas about how to accomplish what is best for the country. 

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
11.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  MrFrost @11    4 years ago

The problem is that both parties have different ideas about how to accomplish what is best for the country. 

Only one side is welcoming votes from white supremacists and white nationalists, and going to extremes to suppress votes that are most likely to favor their opponents, in order to meet those ends.

For instance, as a civil engineer this story was particularly shocking to me.  Civil engineers are required to make all new construction and renovations ADA compliant, which in reality is virtually impossible to do because of how onerous the regulations are.  They simply don’t work in the majority of instances outside of buildings, because nature is not flat.  We do the best we can, but I guarantee you that I can find an ADA violation in almost any handicap ramp or road crossing after it has been constructed.  The violations are tolerated depending on how flagrantly they are.  However, in one Georgia county an attempt was made to close 7 out of 9 polling places in low income neighborhoods “because they didn’t comply with ADA”.  It did not work, but Republicans tried to make it happen, which is an extremely brazen attempt to suppress votes.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
11.1.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @11.1    4 years ago

Hal 

Every citizen should be afforded the right to vote

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Principal
11.1.2  MrFrost  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @11.1    4 years ago
Only one side is welcoming votes from white supremacists and white nationalists

I agree Hal, I was speaking in general terms, not trying to single out any one person or ideology. (Pssst, that means I was trying to abide by the seeders request for a civil debate). 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
11.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  MrFrost @11    4 years ago

MFrost

Totally agree the first half of your comment but not totally with the second.  Indeed both sides have different views of what is right for the country, the problem is that both sides think their approach to getting to "what is right" is the one and only approach and not to be compromised on or to be improved by non-believers.

Take no input, make no compromise - that is the approach of both sides in two many cases 

And that is why so little gets done

 
 
 
CM
Freshman Silent
11.2.1  CM  replied to  Robert in Ohio @11.2    4 years ago

Good to see you RIO...

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
11.2.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  CM @11.2.1    4 years ago

CM

Thank you and right back at you - we will see how long it lasts

 
 
 
XDm9mm
Masters Expert
11.2.3  XDm9mm  replied to  Robert in Ohio @11.2    4 years ago

It's been determined by history.

Take immigration as one example.  Ronald Reagan reached a 'compromise' with Tip Oneal on immigration in that amnesty would be granted to the millions of illegals already here on the "promise" that the Democrats would work with the Republicans to secure the border and stem the flow of illegal immigration.   That was in 1986.  The Republicans are still waiting for the Democrats to work on stemming the flow of illegal immigration.

More often than not, the Republican of years past 'compromised' with their Democrat counterparts and acquiesced to Democrat demands on 'promises" of something in the future.   And again, more often than not, the Republicans are still waiting for the Democrats to fulfill those promises.

The Republicans are finally saying 'no more promises'.  Now, it's more like 'put up or shut up'.  If you don't want to work to get something accomplished, you'll have to deal with what's done after the fact.

 
 
 
CM
Freshman Silent
11.2.4  CM  replied to  Robert in Ohio @11.2.2    4 years ago

Always good to see you RIO, I am not here as much as before, but, we have always gotten along even if we disagreed on subjects..see you later..

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Principal
11.2.5  MrFrost  replied to  Robert in Ohio @11.2    4 years ago

Allow me to be more specific and give an example.

Who wants lower taxes? Everyone does. The difference is that the right always promises lower taxes, and 9 times out of 10, if taxes ARE lowered, the vast majority of the benefits favor the rich. These las tax cuts did exactly that. Problem number two is that the right typically wants to increase spending....after lower those taxes. More military is where most of the money goes despite the US having a military many times the size of the next 10 countries combined. Walls, military spending, a "space force", modernizing our nukes, etc... That ALL costs a LOT of money. But, we just CUT taxes. So where is that money coming from? It gets added on to the debt, that thing the right screamed about for the last 8 years, but suddenly stopped the second trump took office. 

Now, the left wants many of the same things the right wants. A strong military, protections at the border,infrastructure, etc.. The difference? The left wants to have a way to actually PAY for it and cutting taxes is not going to facilitate that. 

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Expert
11.3  Kathleen  replied to  MrFrost @11    4 years ago

That's true, but there has to be a middle ground then. Someone in the middle to compromise better then the party's.

 
 
 
Release The Kraken
PhD Principal
12  Release The Kraken    4 years ago

The moderate or lukewarm for this seeds purpose is responsible for the disgusting status quo that has been a breeding ground for government corruption.

Good riddance to the middle, the cowards too scared of losing power, too scared to act when action was necessary.

This is your America.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
12.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  Release The Kraken @12    4 years ago

I agree and prefer having strong opposition rather than the duopoly. The deep state is a result of both parties working together. 

 
 
 
Release The Kraken
PhD Principal
12.1.1  Release The Kraken  replied to  Dean Moriarty @12.1    4 years ago

Agreed,

Establishment Republicans and Democrats are clearly to blame.

It's rich to see them blame one another.

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
12.1.2  lennylynx  replied to  Dean Moriarty @12.1    4 years ago

No Dean, as I've explained to you before, the 'deep state' is the state of right wing conspiracy nuts' heads up their collective asses, deep.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
12.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Release The Kraken @12    4 years ago

badfish

Long time without hearing your "wisdom and wit" - I hope all is well with you and yours

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
13  PJ    4 years ago

The problem is not Donald Trump.  He is merely doing whatever he has been permitted to do.  The problem is his supporters.  They have perverted our country with their complicitness.  They applaud his policies because they target, condemn and punish those who are different.   Their sense of justice and fairness is witless, warped and dangerous.

There was a time when I may have seen some areas that I could unite with them on but they have ruined it with their inability to censor Mr. Trump. 

You can't reason with the unreasonable.  

If you want to pretend in rainbows and butterflies then I suggest you go back to your hiatus. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
13.1  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @13    4 years ago
There was a time when I may have seen some areas that I could unite with them on but they have ruined it with their inability to censor Mr. Trump. 

I agree that NO one can control trump. I saw that as a big danger myself before he was even elected.  

That doesn't not mean to me that every person who voted for or supports the policies he puts forth is at fault for the mans own personal faults. 

many people vote for many reasons. 

Many people will overlook traits they dont like in others to get what they want. I've had employers that I sure didn't like, agree with or could hardly stand to be around.  My financial security was more important to me at the time than the person or their personality or what I felt about their morality even.

To me the problem is all the people in america who are willing to put their own idolocal wants before the good of the entire nation, and I see millions of Americans on both sides of that fence just like that. 

But I'm still gonna have a nice evening...lol

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
13.1.1  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @13.1    4 years ago

So.....the supporters who make a point to tell everyone that they voted for this guy BECAUSE he is exactly who he is, according to you, aren't at fault for voting him in office?  

Ummmmm.......no, they don't get a pass from me.   

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
13.1.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @13.1.1    4 years ago
the supporters who make a point to tell everyone that they voted for this guy BECAUSE he is exactly who he is, according to you, aren't at fault for voting him in office?  

the supporters who make a point to tell everyone that they voted for this guy BECAUSE of WHAT he is DOING exactly what they think we need to do are according to you, aren't at fault for voting him in office?  

No

I Don't see many actually supporting who he is I do see many supporting what he's doing though. Personally I'm able to separate and acknowledge there is a difference and not condemn them all. 

The people who do approve of or advocate for more of this mans dysfunctional qualities I see as messed up individuals themself and that once again is not reserved for trumpets exclusively. Both sides have em. 

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Expert
14  Kathleen    4 years ago

I don't think being in either party is the problem. It's the way you act about it that's the problem. I realized that's its best not to be afraid to be who you are and be proud of the choice you make. I have freinds on both sides of the fence and we respect each other's views. So it can be done, but like always, you will run into some people that want you to think the way they do. You think for yourself and everything else will fall in place. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
14.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Kathleen @14    4 years ago

Misty Mountain

Well said and very true

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Expert
14.1.1  Kathleen  replied to  Robert in Ohio @14.1    4 years ago

Thanks, I am neutral on some issues but lean more to the right on some others. 

Its perfectly fine to not support the President and be in the same party. That is where I am. I wished it was another candidate that I wrote in instead.  There were a few issues that I agreed with Trump on, but most, no.

Don't ever let anyone make you feel that you are wrong with where you stand. I don't.... Anymore.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu     4 years ago

Welcome back 

I read your blog and agree with much of what you had to say.  

I hope you do stick around, we can sure use a few more less particent posters IMO.

The push and pull on owr group from some of both of both sides here and in real life to abandon the neutral position to add strength to their own cause and agendas can be taxing to say the least. 

IMO though sanity and logical answers are usually found some where in the middle. 

So that is where I work to reside as well. 

Again, good to see ya here, hope you do enjoy it this time more and stick around some.

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15    4 years ago

Just because he pretends to be reasonable doesn't make it a reality.  There is no good Trump supporter.   It's foolish to fall for his kumbaya rhetoric.   It's a con.  They cannot be trusted.  

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Quiet
15.1.1  Cerenkov  replied to  PJ @15.1    4 years ago

How sweeping...

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.2  PJ  replied to  Cerenkov @15.1.1    4 years ago

It's a factual statement.  Trump supporters have chosen a morally corrupt leader BECAUSE he's morally corrupt.   You cannot be a good person if you can set aside your principals in exchange for something.  It means your principals are for sale.  

Don't worry, someone will come along soon and delete my posts and cite me for upsetting trump supporters. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.3  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1    4 years ago
Just because he pretends to be reasonable doesn't make it a reality.

I tend to believe what someone says until shown otherwise, how well do you know this person ?  

and Got some reality on them you care to share to back up your claim of this individual ?

I'll check back.

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Quiet
15.1.4  lennylynx  replied to  PJ @15.1.2    4 years ago
"...cite me for upsetting trump supporters."

PJ!!  Trumpists have feelings too you know, don't be such a meanie!

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.5  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.2    4 years ago
Trump supporters have chosen a morally corrupt leader BECAUSE he's morally corrupt. 

Morally corrupt is a judgment call. Who among us is perfect ?

I am anti trump, not because of I think he's immoral but because I dont approve of his methods or ways of accomplishment. 

You cannot be a good person if you can set aside your principals in exchange for something.

I agree, However the people following this man don't believe they are.  In fact they believe trump is here to protect the principals of the constitution. Supported both in his words and his actions.

Don't worry, someone will come along soon and delete my posts and cite me for upsetting trump supporters. 

I kinda of doubt that as well, This is a pretty accepting and mixed site. as long as you aren't personally attacking anyone I'd say your opinion is safe here as mine have been.

Maybe contradicted but I doubt it goes "Poof" 

Have a nice evening and thanks for sharing your opinion with all of us. 

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.6  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.1.3    4 years ago

All I need to know is he is a Trump supporter.  He's talking out of both sides of his mouth like all trump supporters do.  They want it both ways.  They want trumps racist, divisive and misogynistic policies but pretend they aren't what he is. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.7  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.6    4 years ago
All I need to know is he is a Trump supporter.

I disagree

But to each their own

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.8  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.1.5    4 years ago

The republicans love people like you.  All they have to do is pretend they like and respect you and you reciprocate and then they fuck you over.  Hahahahaha

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.9  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.8    4 years ago

LOL 

Funny I seem to get about the same kind of responses from many of them as you are throwing at me right now, "Join our side or you are scum...."

.

LOL that doesn't sway me either way. 

never will. 

have a nice evening 

and Good Luck America 

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.10  PJ  replied to  lennylynx @15.1.4    4 years ago

They have no feelings!  They applaud children being ripped away from their families, women being sexually assaulted are all liars, murder is okay as long as we're selling them billions in arms weapons, alternative facts are okay if it helps the cause.  I could go on and on.  

the country has lost its soul but hey, the stock market is doing well........

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.11  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.10    4 years ago
They have no feelings!  They applaud

Some of them have no feelings!  They applaud ...

Some of them, IMO: though not All of them. 

I personally know people who voted for trump, do not like the man personally themself yet because he is doing what they honestly believe is best for the country they put up with what they dont like of him.

Like I sad for myself its kinda hard to fault them too much considering I've been in the same position with past employers myself.

 
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.12  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.1.11    4 years ago

Omg......You're a closet trump supporter!  Hahahaha

What a big faker you are.  Lol . 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.13  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.6    4 years ago

Damn

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.14  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.12    4 years ago
Omg......You're a closet trump supporter!  Hahahaha What a big faker you are.  Lol .

Wow a person who believes they know me better than I know myself. 

How refreshing !! and how childish !!

No I still will not join Your side, but thanks for your interest. 

Good luck convincing others though

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
 
 
PJ
Masters Quiet
15.1.16  PJ  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.1.14    4 years ago

I'm sorry Steve but I didn't ask you to join me.  It sounds like you're comfortable making excuses for people.  I don't mean that in a mean way.  

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.1.17  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  PJ @15.1.16    4 years ago
It sounds like you're comfortable making excuses for people.  I don't mean that in a mean way.  

Cool, I dont really want to or intend to make "excuses" for anyone. Everyone answers to reality, they don't answer to me nor I to them.  

I do try to see all sides of people and issues. I've been thru a lot myself and am pretty good at putting myself into others situations in my mind to see different points of view.

Being like that works for me in many ways, so I'm not likely to abandon it. lol

to each their own

I do hope you have a good rest of the evening and thanks for the conversation. 

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Expert
15.1.18  Kathleen  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.1.15    4 years ago

Sometimes, that is the best comment of all.. jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
15.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15    4 years ago

Steve

Thanks for the feedback - answers, progress and real accomplishment for "the people" are found in the middle I agree

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Expert
15.2.1  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Robert in Ohio @15.2    4 years ago
Thanks for the feedback

You are quite Welcome Robert,

Its always nice to see more still really opened minded folks come here. 

So welcome back, I hope you stick around a while. I think we probably have much in common. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
15.2.2  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @15.2.1    4 years ago
Its always nice to see more still really opened minded folks come here. 

ROFL

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
15.2.3  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  JohnRussell @15.2.2    4 years ago

John

I always appreciate your insightful and well thought out input to a discuss

Don't be a stranger

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
15.2.4  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @15.2.2    4 years ago

Open minded?  Yeah right.  BOTH SIDES EQUALLY BAD BULLSHIT 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
16  bbl-1    4 years ago

Well done RIO.  I too am from Ohio.

But there is this---at least from my perspective.

For about three decades the US courts have been politicized.  Under this president ( Trump ) that process has been brought out into the open and is now a campaign issue.  Thanks to Trump, Kavanaugh and ( the quickly forgotten ) Gorsuch are relegated to being conservative republicans wearing tax payer robes, receiving tax payer wages and accumulating tax payer retirement benefits.

The political party system is not the problem.  The problem is lazy wealth that refuses to invest in the nation's economy and infrastructure.  Instead, investing in the nations power structures.   

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
16.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  bbl-1 @16    4 years ago
For about three decades the US courts have been politicized.

Wrong.

That's the only way to describe this statement on a completely factual basis.

The Court has been politicized since 1802. When one John Adams, 2nd president of the US and writer and signer of the Constitution tried to pack the federal judiciary with federalist justices....

Absolute proof will be provided upon request...

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
16.1.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Nowhere Man @16.1    4 years ago

Nowhere Man

Good point

And didn't FDR try to expand the court so that he could get his political agenda advanced

Didn't work but that is what FDR proposed

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
16.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  Robert in Ohio @16.1.1    4 years ago

Hi Robert!

Welcome back my friend... (yeah things have changed around here, good and bad as typical of change)

YES, actually FDR tried to expand the Supreme Court from what I remember as 7 justices to 11, (ned to check that) so he could appoint like minded justices to create a majority that would support what he knew would be legal challenges to his "New Deal"

Congress struck him down, yes a democrat congress shot that down as it would have set a precedent that a president had the authority to bend the court to his will... (I think someone posted an article recently advocating for the Democrats doing the same thing) that was back when the democrats actually supported the constitution rather than viewing it as a roadblock to their agenda that needs changed.

And as far as the "New Deal" most of it was repealed after the midterm election, and many are still fighting over it's remnants....

Like I have said before, there are Whigs and Tories, and people would do well to learn what they are and discover they have always been around since the beginnings of recorded history.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
16.1.3  Nowhere Man  replied to  Robert in Ohio @16.1.1    4 years ago

Hey brother,

I just checked this. (my memory seems to be failing on obscure facts lately)

The Supreme Court was last expanded in 1869 when by act of congress it was expanded to 9 composing of one chief justice and eight associate justices.

Roosevelt in 1937 authored  The Judicial Procedures Reform Bill of 1937 (frequently called the " court -packing plan") this was a legislative initiative proposed by the President to add more justices to the U.S.  Supreme Court .

The central provision of the bill would have granted the President power to appoint an additional Justice to the U.S. Supreme Court, up to a maximum of six, for every member of the court over the age of 70 years and 6 months. (from the wiki article)

Which means the number of justices would float from 9 to 15 depending on how many were over the age of 70 and a half. 

Essentially allowing the president to pack the court at will as needed when political needs required a favorable ruling.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
16.2  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  bbl-1 @16    4 years ago

bbl-1

Good points

Thanks for the feedback

 
 
 
Diablo Imperius
Professor Participates
17  Diablo Imperius    4 years ago

I can assure you Robert it's the same shit and the same people ad nauseum or ad nauseating, take your pick.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
17.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Diablo Imperius @17    4 years ago

Thanks for the feedback, but in my experience there are good apples and bad apples in every basket 

 
 
 
luther28
Sophomore Quiet
18  luther28    4 years ago

I have been away from NT for quite some time

Well I for one welcome the return of one of the voices of normality, good to see you back Robert.

I feel fairly much the same as yourself, but yet here we are:)

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
18.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  luther28 @18    4 years ago

Luther

I remember you thanks for the welcome

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
19  Perrie Halpern R.A.    4 years ago

Hi Everyone,

I would like to remind everyone that this is a blog, and therefore the property of the person who wrote it. Only Robert can flag comments unless the violation is a TOS one. Please don't flag any comments from this article. Thank you. 

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
19.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @19    4 years ago

Perrie

Thanks everyone seems to be having there say and as an amateur coin collector, I enjoy "two cents worth" whenever I can get it   jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
19.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Robert in Ohio @19.1    4 years ago

Good one Robert!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
19.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @19    4 years ago

I must have missed that when reading the CoC, not that I've needed to do so, but I guess that's a good reason to bother commenting on a blog if only the author can flag an insult (that perhaps he/she agrees with). 

 
 
 
Enoch
Masters Quiet
20  Enoch    4 years ago

Dear Friend Robert in Ohio: Welcome back.

Wasn't the same without you.

You add so much to this community.

Peace and Abundant Blessings Always.

Enoch.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Quiet
20.1  author  Robert in Ohio  replied to  Enoch @20    4 years ago

Enoch

How wonderful to hear from you - your kind words, wisdom and wonderful outlook on life were things I missed during my sabbatical from NT

Thanks for dropping by