After two decades and billions spent, Afghan government collapses as Taliban takes Kabul

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  sister-mary-agnes-ample-bottom  •  one month ago  •  126 comments

By:   Deirdre Shesgreen and Michael Collins (MSN)

After two decades and billions spent, Afghan government collapses as Taliban takes Kabul
The Taliban, which for hours had been in the outskirts of Kabul, announced soon after they would move farther into a city gripped by panic.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


In a swift and stunning rout, Taliban fighters seized control of Afghanistan's capital on Sunday, completing their sweep of the besieged country as the Afghan government collapsed after two decades of efforts by the U.S. to reshape the region as part of its "war on terror."

Taliban takes over Kabul as Afghanistan's president flees USA TODAY See more videos SHARESHARETWEETSHAREEMAIL What to watch next

Embattled President Ashraf Ghani fled the country as the Taliban entered the capital city of Kabul, and American troops scrambled to evacuate thousands of U.S. diplomats and Afghans from its embassy.

The Taliban, which for hours had been in the outskirts of Kabul, announced soon after they would move farther into a city gripped by panic throughout the day as helicopters raced overhead to evacuate personnel from the U.S. Embassy. Smoke rose near the compound as staff destroyed important documents. Several other Western missions also prepared to pull their people out.

© Rahmat Gul, AP A U.S. Chinook helicopter flies over the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, Sunday, Aug. 15, 2021.

The Taliban is soon expected to declare the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan from the presidential palace in Kabul, an official told the Associated Press.

In Washington, President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris met via videoconference with their national security team to hear updates on the drawdown of civilian personnel in Afghanistan and the evacuation of allies who worked alongside the U.S. government during the 20-year war.

The fall of Kabul marked the final chapter of America's longest war, which began after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks masterminded by al-Qaida's Osama bin Laden, then harbored by the Taliban government. A U.S.-led invasion forced the Taliban to retreat.

For some, the U.S. pullout was a reminder of America's ignominious withdrawal from Vietnam in 1975, which ended with iconic images of U.S. helicopters evacuating Americans from the roof of the embassy in Saigon.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken flatly rejected such comparisons. "This is manifestly not Saigon," Blinken argued, characterizing the drawdown of embassy and other personnel as "very deliberate."

Still, analysts predicted that history would view the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan as a failure.

"On day one, we go in and the Taliban is in charge. Twenty years later, the Taliban is back in charge," said Jack Weinstein, a former Pentagon official and expert on international security.

"I don't know how you couch that as a victory," he said.

US responds: U.S. troops evacuate embassy staff to Kabul airport as Taliban encircles Afghan capital, Blinken says

Caught off guard


Though Kabul had been expected to fall, the speed of its collapse clearly caught the Biden administration off guard.

Biden set an Aug. 31 deadline to withdraw all U.S. forces from Afghanistan and bring an end to the 20-year conflict. Just last week, an American military assessment estimated it would be a month before the capital would come under insurgent pressure.

Defying expectations, the Taliban seized nearly all of Afghanistan in a short time, despite the hundreds of billions of dollars spent by the U.S. and NATO over nearly two decades to build up Afghan security forces. Afghan security forces were defeated by the Taliban or fled much of the country, even though they had some air support from the U.S. military.

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul warned on Sunday that the security situation in Afghanistan was deteriorating and instructed American citizens to "shelter in place" amid reports of gunfire at the airport in Afghanistan's capital. The embassy's security alert came as American troops were in the midst of evacuating all diplomatic staff from the embassy to the airport and as the Taliban entered Kabul, seemingly poised to take over the government.

President Ghani flew out of the country, according to multiple media outlets.

Abdullah Abdullah, the head of the Afghan National Reconciliation Council, later confirmed in an online video that Ghani had left. "The former president of Afghanistan left Afghanistan, leaving the country in this difficult situation," Abdullah said. "God should hold him accountable."

Afghans fearing that the Taliban would reimpose the kind of brutal rule that all but eliminated women's rights rushed to leave the country, lining up at cash machines to withdraw their life savings, the AP reported.

More: Taliban's Afghanistan advance tests Biden's 'America is back' foreign policy promise

Taliban remained strong


For years, U.S. and Afghan forces focused on controlling key supply chains and major cities in the country, forcing the Taliban into Afghanistan's rugged hinterland. The Taliban remained strong in the country's mountainous rural areas, using those regions as bases of attack to seize territory once U.S. forces began their drawdown.

The Taliban also remained in control of strategic border crossings, according to the Associated Press, allowing them to smuggle weapons and other key goods while also rejuvenating forces outside the country.

In February 2020, Washington under then-President Donald Trump signed a deal with the Taliban that limited direct military action against the insurgents. That allowed the fighters to gather strength and move quickly to seize key areas when President Joe Biden announced his plans to withdraw all American forces by the end of this month.

More: Trump claims Afghanistan withdrawal would have been 'much more successful' if he were president. Would it?

© Gulabuddin Amiri, AP Taliban flags fly on the gate of Ghazni provincial governor's house, in Ghazni, southeastern, Afghanistan, Sunday, Aug. 15, 2021.

Taliban awaits 'peaceful transfer of Kabul city'


On Sunday, Taliban insurgents approached Kabul. Taliban negotiators in the capital discussed the transfer of power, said an Afghan official who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals, according to AP.

It remained unclear when that transfer would take place and who among the Taliban was negotiating. The negotiators on the government side included former President Hamid Karzai, leader of Hizb-e-Islami political and paramilitary group Gulbudin Hekmatyar and Abdullah, who has been a vocal critic of Ghani.

Karzai, with his three daughters, appeared in a video, saying he remained in Kabul.

"We are trying to solve the issue of Afghanistan with the Taliban leadership peacefully," he said, while the roar of a passing helicopter could be heard overhead.

Taliban returns: Many fear it will again end Afghan human rights, support terrorism


Ex, president Karzai latest message:
I am here in Kabul with my girls and I ask the Taliban to provide security and safety for the people. pic.twitter.com/l3FmVC6jnE
— Tajuden Soroush (@TajudenSoroush) August 15, 2021

Afghanistan's acting defense minister, Bismillah Khan Mohammadi, lashed out at Ghani.

"They tied our hands from behind and sold the country," he wrote on Twitter. "Curse Ghani and his gang."

Taliban fighters tried to calm residents of the capital, insisting they wouldn't enter people's homes or interfere with businesses. They also said they'd offer an "amnesty" to those who worked with the Afghan government or foreign forces.

"No one's life, property and dignity will be harmed and the lives of the citizens of Kabul will not be at risk," the insurgents said in a statement, according to AP.

Reports of brutality across Afghanistan


But there have been reports of revenge killings and other brutal tactics in areas of the country the Taliban have seized in recent days. One female journalist, weeping, sent voice messages to colleagues after armed men entered her apartment building and banged on her door.

"What should I do? Should I call the police or Taliban?" Getee Azami cried. It wasn't clear what happened to her after that.

Many chose to flee, rushing to the Kabul airport, the last route out of the country as the Taliban now hold every border crossing. NATO said it was "helping to maintain operations at Kabul airport to keep Afghanistan connected with the world."

© Rahmat Gul, AP Afghans wait in long lines for hours to withdraw money, in front of Kabul Bank, in Kabul, Afghanistan, Sunday, Aug. 15, 2021. Officials say Taliban fighters have entered Kabul and are seeking the unconditional surrender of the central government.

One Afghan university student described feeling betrayed as she watched the evacuation of the U.S. Embassy.

"You failed the younger generation of Afghanistan," said Aisha Khurram, 22, who is now unsure of whether she'll be able to graduate in two months' time. "A generation ... raised in the modern Afghanistan were hoping to build the country with their own hands. They put blood, efforts and sweat into whatever we had right now."

Sunday began with the Taliban seizing the nearby city of Jalalabad — which had been the last major city besides the capital not in their hands. Afghan officials said the militants also took the capitals of Maidan Wardak, Khost, Kapisa and Parwan provinces, as well as the country's last government-held border post.

Later, Afghan forces at Bagram air base, home to a prison housing 5,000 inmates, surrendered to the Taliban, according to Bagram district chief Darwaish Raufi. The prison at the former U.S. base held both Taliban and Islamic State group fighters.

Contributing: Associated Press

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: After two decades and billions spent, Afghan government collapses as Taliban takes Kabul


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Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
1  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    one month ago

It's a sad, sad day.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    one month ago

gee, the last several republican wars just haven't turned out too well, for people that don't own any MIC stocks...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @1.1    one month ago

Was it a Democratic war when Obama was Commander? Or now that Biden is in charge?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.1    one month ago

an inherited shit show, both times. go ahead and name that democrat POTUS that abandoned our allies, the kurds.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.1.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.1    one month ago

 Democratic war when Obama was Commander? Or now that Biden is in charge?

It's really sad to see how obsessive partisanship has broken some progressives. Their first instinct when a disaster unfolds is to protect their party.   Our country doesn't matter, it's protecting the Democratic Party from blame that consumes. them. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
1.1.4  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.3    one month ago

quit the bs hypocracy 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.1.5  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @1.1.2    one month ago

So two damn surges that accomplished jack shit of nothing; and a fucked up SOFA agreement by Obama had nothing to do with it?

Typical damn Democrats won't take responsibility for anything.

Bush Jr was wrong to try the US hand at national building instead of conducting a search and destroy that we could have sustained forever; Obama was wrong for doubling and tripling down on it and tying us to a weak corrupt Afghan government; nad Trump was wrong for not withdrawing sooner and leaving it up the Joe "fucks everything up" Biden.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Guide
1.1.6  bugsy  replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.1.4    one month ago
quit the bs hypocracy 

Not really. He is telling the truth.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @1.1.2    one month ago
an inherited shit show, both times. go ahead and name that democrat POTUS that abandoned our allies, the kurds.

Typical progressive liberal, always blaming someone else no matter who is actually in charge.

Piss-poor way to live, IMO.

 
 
 
zuksam
Sophomore Silent
1.1.8  zuksam  replied to  devangelical @1.1.2    one month ago
an inherited shit show

There's enough blame to go around and Congress signed off on this shit show war from the start and every step along the way. This war had to end but it speaks volumes of the ineptitude of the Pentagon and Congress that after spending trillions propping up the Afghan government and training and equipping their military it was unable to hold off the Taliban even in their capitol city long enough for the US to leave. Biden owns this exit though and it couldn't have gone more wrong.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  bugsy @1.1.6    4 weeks ago

The Turd Reich supporters wouldn't know the truth if it bit them on their ignorant stupid asses.  

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
1.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    one month ago

certainly is, and has been for bout 19 years, or whenever we had Osama at Tora Bora. That coulds/shoulda/woulda, ended this 'Nation Building' BULLSHIT. Then we have Mushroom Cloud Hallucinations from Cheney starting a war with Iraq who had pretty much NOTHING to do with 911, cause what was it, 16 of the 18 terrorists hailed from Saudi Arabia....

What a waste of American Lives and Limbs first of all, for who for what, some DICKS' former company, as Haliburton faired by far the best, reaping in BILLIONS while wasting our positions and reputability around the globe.

'LEARN FROM THIS MISTAKE' Down

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.2    one month ago

Who the fuck put troops back into Iraq? Have short term memory loss much? It was damn well Obama! Who went in to save the Shai Iraqi government that was loyal to Iran from ISIS/ISIL. Which is every bit as stupid as anything Bush did.

So Iraq is now Obama's fuck up; which Trump continued; and now so has Biden.

Next up remember who fucked up Syria, Yemen, Libya, and the Ukraine? That was Obama as well. The other ventures that we will never be truly out of. Our foreign policy is stuck on stupid. It doesn't matter who is in the WH. They continue and double down on the same stupid policies.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.1    one month ago
Our foreign policy is stuck on stupid. It doesn't matter who is in the WH. They continue and double down on the same stupid policies.

Agreed. Has been for decades.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
1.2.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Ronin2 @1.2.1    one month ago
ho the fuck put troops back into Iraq? Have short term memory loss much? It was damn well Obama! Who went in to save the Shai Iraqi government that was loyal to Iran from ISIS/ISIL. Which is every bit as stupid as anything Bush did.

WHO the fuck needlessly started the damn IRAQ WAR again ? Cause once the WAR WAS STARTED, we HAD TO OWN IT! A hint , SOME DICK!

And if that WAR had not been started under Cheney Bush how the Hell could Obama , or should i say would , Obama need to "the fuck put troops back into Iraq?" ?

I also noticed your exclusion of the Kurds , Trump DID COMPLETELY ABANDON, thus giving Putin yet another earned gift, while exampling how we/US should not be trusted, and they don't, and not sure we should often !

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
1.2.4  Ronin2  replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.2.3    one month ago
WHO the fuck needlessly started the damn IRAQ WAR again ?

Better check your history that was Bush Sr; who conducted air strikes all over Iraq; as well as destroyed a good portion of their regular military to free Kuwait. Containment- along with regular bombings of Iraq every time they did something wrong occurred all throughout the Clinton administration. We were never at peace with Iraq during that entire time.  Bush Jr invaded Iraq- a rather dumb idea. But he also signed a SOFA agreement which Obama followed through on to remove all US forces. We were completely out of Iraq.

Cause once the WAR WAS STARTED, we HAD TO OWN IT!

What a fucking idiotic statement! No one held a gun to Obama's head to reinsert troops into Iraq to save a Shai government loyal to Iran! It was his decision completely; and a fucking stupid one on the level of anything Bush Jr did. The Iraqi government doesn't support the US troops there, allowing them to come under regular attacks from Iranian Shai militias that are allowed to operate freely within the country. Obama made our US air force provide aerial cover for those same damn militias to remove ISIS/ISIL.

Trump and now Biden refuse to remove troops from the country to keep that Shai government that is still loyal to Iran in power. Oil for our NATO allies is the only reason we are still there!

Tell me. are you in favor of going back into Afghanistan and fully occupying that country again since we went to war with them to remove Al Qaeda and the Taliban; and since they are now back we "own it"?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.5  Tessylo  replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.2    one month ago

Yup this was all thanks to Shotgun Dick Cheney and his puppet Dubya - may they burn in hell.  

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
2  Paula Bartholomew    one month ago

Where the LL hockey sticks have you been? We have missed you around here so much.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
2.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @2    one month ago

she was cheatin on US with NewsMax

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.1.1  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  igknorantzrulz @2.1    one month ago
she was cheatin on US with NewsMax

Shoot, I'd be banned before I hit enter on my profile picture.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.2  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @2    one month ago

Prison.  I kept telling them some other dude did it.  They finally believed me and here I am.

I've missed y'all too.  jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.2    one month ago

you don't need to spare my feelings, tell them the truth, I misplaced the handcuff key...

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
2.2.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  devangelical @2.2.1    one month ago
you don't need to spare

sounds like she needs the spare key

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Raven Wing  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.2    one month ago

You have been sorely missed, Sister. It is good to see you back with us again. Hope all is well. jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.2.4  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Raven Wing @2.2.3    one month ago

jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif back at you!

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.2.5  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  devangelical @2.2.1    one month ago
I misplaced the handcuff key...

That was supposed to be our little secret...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.6  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.2.5    one month ago

uh, yeah..., about that..., I also sold all of our homemade videos to pornhub. the camera loves you.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.2.4    one month ago

Great to see you! Missed ya!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.8  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.2.1    one month ago

I thought it was a case of you two shacking up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.9  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.2.6    one month ago

"uh, yeah..., about that..., I also sold all of our homemade videos to pornhub. the camera loves you."

Does that pay as well as ghouliani pimping out to Cameo?  Or pimping for the my pillow shithead?

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.2.10  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.7    one month ago

jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
2.2.11  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  devangelical @2.2.6    one month ago
I also sold all of our homemade videos to pornhub.

At least now I know why you hired that production firm, 'cause dayum we look good.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3  Sean Treacy    one month ago

As Charles Cooke points out, this was a completely avoidable disaster:

Surely, it must be possible to believe that the United States should have got out of Afghanistan — indeed, to believe that the United States should have left the country   completely   — without believing that it was a good idea to do it in this   order ? Why on   earth   did the United States pull its military personnel before its citizens were all out? Before the diplomats were out? Before we had extracted every civilian we wanted to come back to the United States with us? Before we’d   removed   any military hardware that might fall into the Taliban’s hands? Before we had shredded any sensitive documents? Before we let the thousands of the dangerous prisoners we’ve spent the last twenty years rounding up join right back up with their friends?

Just as he should be, Joe Biden is in charge of this details in this area of American foreign policy. And, as the   papers have made abundantly clear , this plan was his call and his responsibility. That he has botched it this disgracefully should appall everyone in equal measure, irrespective of their broader views of whether — and   when   — we should have left.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
3.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Sean Treacy @3    one month ago

so it's all Joe's fault, for relying on his intelligence community that was not wrong, except on how expeditiously it would occur. I'll even agree, Joe is POTUS so yes it ultimately falls upon he, but it began when then POTUS DICK Cheney, instructed Bush Boy to invade the wrong country in Iraq, and then to Nation Build two countries that rightfully hate US.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1    one month ago
, for relying on his intelligence community that was not wrong

Lol.. Look at what Biden was saying just last month about Afghanistan  He was spectacularly wrong and he's the President who was responsible for the withdrawal. Did you not read the embedded link?  "B iden overruled his top military commanders--Gen. Frank McKenzie, Gen. Austin Scott Miller, and Gen. Mark Milley--who recommended the US keep 2500 troops in Afghanistan while stepping up diplomacy to try to cement a peace agreement."

I'll repeat what Cooke said "J oe Biden is in charge of this details in this area of American foreign policy. And, as the      papers have made abundantly clear  , this plan was his call and his responsibility."

Dispute that rather than blaming Bush for invading Iraq (with Biden's support). Recall, Biden supported the invasion of Iraq (the second one. Always wrong Biden opposed the first Gulf War) and Afghanistan. He's not blameless on the decision to invade either. 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
3.1.2  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1    one month ago

when then POTUS DICK Cheney

When did Cheney become POTUS?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.1.2    one month ago

2000-2008

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
3.1.4  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  devangelical @3.1.3    one month ago

He was the VP, not the POTUS 2001-2009.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
3.1.5  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.1.4    one month ago

Do you know who Georgie Jr. picked to vette out and find him a proper fitting Vice President ? He chose DICK CHENEY to find him his VP running mate, who chose DICK CHENEY to be his VICE PRESIDENT, cause you can never have enuff vices, so get a grip, and remember who did little Bush listen to, as it was not Bush Senior who did it exactly right by the book getting in and out of Kuwait, and Jr. decided to go with some DICK's advice, over that of his former POTUS father...think on that a bit, and tell me who you believe called most of the shotz...

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
3.1.6  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1.5    one month ago

All I did was point out that he was the VP not the POTUS.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
3.1.7  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.1.1    one month ago

'Look at what Biden was saying just last month...'

Yes, look!

The 20 year Afghan debacle clearly demonstrates the failure of both imperial parties.
Neither Capitalist party admits to knowing that this imperialist project was doomed from the start.
Both blame each other for the failed debacle. 

Political masturbation.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
3.1.8  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.1.2    one month ago

'When did Cheney become POTUS?'

When it was recognized that between Bush and Dickens [McForeskin] Cheney, the later was the only one possessing a functioning [if evil] mind, he was recognized broadly as the 'President' of these United States in an 'honorific' sense...

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.1.2    one month ago

Didn't you know that Dubya was Shotgun Dick's puppet?

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
3.2  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Sean Treacy @3    one month ago

Sean, there is a lot of blame to go around.  I know you think Joe Biden is at the top of the blame pyramid, but you need to go back further than a few months, or even a few years, to get a clearer picture.  Anyway, placing blame doesn't change what is happening right now to tens of thousands of people.   

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.2.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @3.2    one month ago
an, there is a lot of blame to go around. 

Sure there is. 

know you think Joe Biden is at the top of the blame pyramid,

He's the President. He misread the position on the ground. He authorized the withdrawal to proceed like this. You can blame Bush, Obama and  Trump for alll sorts of things relating to Afghanistan, but this disastrous withdrawal and the lives of our Afghan allies it will cost, is squarely on him. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4  Ed-NavDoc    one month ago

"This is manifestly not Saigon, Blinken argued..."

Just one word. BULLSHIT!

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
4.1  Ronin2  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4    one month ago

Just as a refresher for how stupid of a statement he made.

For some, the U.S. pullout was a reminder of America's ignominious withdrawal from Vietnam in 1975, which ended with iconic images of U.S. helicopters evacuating Americans from the roof of the embassy in Saigon. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken flatly rejected such comparisons. "This is manifestly not Saigon," Blinken argued, characterizing the drawdown of embassy and other personnel as "very deliberate."

Despite the Taliban literally chasing the US out of the capital. US helicopters frantically pulling those lucky enough to make it to the US embassy out as the capital fell to the Taliban.

He should lose his job for that statement alone.

This withdrawal has been a colossal fuckup on a massive scale that will damage this country for countless years to come. 

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
4.2  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4    one month ago
"This is manifestly not Saigon, Blinken argued..." Just one word. BULLSHIT!

Actually it's not.  Kabul is no where near Saigon.  At least the Biden administration got that part right.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
4.2.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @4.2    one month ago

Actually, it is. I watched Saigon fall many years ago when I was in the Navy. Same situation, only the names are different. No way on Earth has Biden and his minions got it right!

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
4.3  Colour Me Free  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @4    one month ago

I see you watched Meet the Press this morning ...

What has happened is so disturbing on so many levels .. Trump made a 'peace deal' with the Taliban .. and it is a must uphold our word binding agreement to leave the country?

Ooo Ed this is a nightmare - the Taliban is now a military powerhouse with US military weapons and technology.  Takes me back to Daesh running amok in Iraq and Obama withholding airstrikes because it was Iraq's war, well and he did not like Maliki .. anyways once Daesh was threatening Erbil and Maliki stepped down Ta Da in rides the US to save the day...  WHERE is the US now?  ... how can the administration claim the US is back when 'we' betray the people of Afghanistan .. Afghan is now a failed state .. billions, close to perhaps trillions have been spent helping the people of Afghanistan and it is allowed to fail  .. ?   Sccrrreeeeaaaaammmmmm!

I have been doing rounds with Repo [yes, he is still the voice of reason] .. his logic, and it makes sense is that 'we cannot want sobriety for the addict more than the addict does' if Afghani's will not fight for their country why should we ... to which I say .. why are we still in Germany, Japan, Philippines .. South Korea etc etc ?  It is not free for the tax payers to have troops there....

I will gnash my teeth .. scream into the pillow ..... but no matter what I do, assessing blame makes about as much sense as Biden upholding an agreement Trump negotiated with the Taliban!

Peace my friend....

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.3.1  Krishna  replied to  Colour Me Free @4.3    4 weeks ago

Trump made a 'peace deal' with the Taliban

And that's the cause of this whole mess.

He made it only with the Taliban, when it should have included the Afghan gov't as well!

The Aghan "friendlies" had trusted us-- but when their government was left out of Trump's deal with the Taliban-- that's when  they realized they could no longer trust us to cover their asses.

So that why all their troops dropped their weapons and ran...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    one month ago

I dont read a lot about this sad story. Hopefully we will learn the lesson that if we want to control what these backwards places will do in the future we will have to leave troops there. If you dont want to leave troops there then dont plan for a future where you can control these places. 

I dont blame Biden , and I dont really blame Trump either. The military leadership has been training the Afghan army for 15 years, and they didnt prepare differently for what is happening because they dont want to admit that the training of the Afghans failed. It isn't Biden's fault, it's the military establishment's fault. They become deluded by their own plans and policies. 

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
5.1  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  JohnRussell @5    one month ago

Here's a stupid question for you:  What happens now?  They need help.  How many innocent people are being murdered right this minute?  I can't stand the thought, and I doubt you can either.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @5.1    one month ago

Personally, I would use our Air Force to reduce Taliban military capability right now. I would reinsert enough of a force to create a buffer zone that could be used to negotiate a partitioning of the country. Give part of it to the Taliban permanently  and have the other part be secular. This might take a couple years to achieve. The Taliban is hard to hit when they are in the hills and mountains. If they start administering cities or running the country they will need a more permanent military infrastructure which would then be subject to attack. 

But that wont happen because the US has been in that country for 20 years and the American people dont give a shit about Afghans. Its time to go we say. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
5.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    one month ago
Personally, I would use our Air Force to reduce Taliban military capability right now. I would reinsert enough of a force to create a buffer zone that could be used to negotiate a partitioning of the country.

That ship has sailed; the Taliban are now insulated within the civilian population of Kabul and several other major Afghan cities. They control the country once more. There is no way of bombing them w/o killing the very civilians you want to protect. It will take street to street, and house to house fighting to remove them. Casualties will be high on all sides; including civilian. Really think that Biden is going to go for that?

I would reinsert enough of a force to create a buffer zone that could be used to negotiate a partitioning of the country. Give part of it to the Taliban permanently  and have the other part be secular. This might take a couple years to achieve. The Taliban is hard to hit when they are in the hills and mountains. If they start administering cities or running the country they will need a more permanent military infrastructure which would then be subject to attack. 

You really think the Taliban would go for that? You think spending billions upon billions more will make this new secular government any less weak and corrupt; or their new military any more competent? We would be fighting in Afghanistan literally forever.

But that wont happen because the US has been in that country for 20 years and the American people dont give a shit about Afghans. Its time to go we say. 

They had their chance and they fucked it up badly. Also, it isn't just the US. Think any of our NATO allies will be rushing back in to aid us?  Everyone is done with Afghanistan. It is just another fucked up chapter in our history now. We will make the same damn mistake in the future no doubt. We don't learn anything from history.

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
5.1.3  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    one month ago
Personally, I would use our Air Force to reduce Taliban military capability right now.

Damn, I'm glad you're not running the show.  The Taliban don't have what people think of as traditional military so your Air Force will be useless unless of course you just want to carpet bomb the entire country and anything that breaths there.

I would reinsert enough of a force to create a buffer zone that could be used to negotiate a partitioning of the country.

That's been tried.   Where have you been?

Give part of it to the Taliban permanently  and have the other part be secular.

What don't you understand about Afghanistan?  No one has invaded Afghanistan and been successful.  The Taliban don't care about your concepts of decency and morality.  And accepting a piece of what they believe they should control would be like telling a Crips to give up turf to the Bloods.

This might take a couple years to achieve.

It hasn't happened in centuries so what makes you believe it will take a couple of years?

The Taliban is hard to hit when they are in the hills and mountains. If they start administering cities or running the country they will need a more permanent military infrastructure which would then be subject to attack. 

They control the cities, towns and villages by LIVING there.  They are all the "military".

But that wont happen because the US has been in that country for 20 years and the American people dont give a shit about Afghans. Its time to go we say. 

No.  It's not the Americans that don't give a shit.  It's the Afghans themselves.   They've been given the opportunity, training and weapons to fight for THEIR country.  But the only thing the Afghan military was concerned with was the monthly pay they received.   They have no love or dedication to "country" as they don't have a country.  They have basically feudal war lords overseeing and controlling local cities, towns and villages maintaining peace locally with theocracy and brutality.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.4  JohnRussell  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @5.1.3    one month ago
No.  It's not the Americans that don't give a shit.  It's the Afghans themselves.   They've been given the opportunity, training and weapons to fight for THEIR country.  But the only thing the Afghan military was concerned with was the monthly pay they received.   They have no love or dedication to "country" as they don't have a country.  They have basically feudal war lords overseeing and controlling local cities, towns and villages maintaining peace locally with theocracy and brutality.

If the Afghans are known not to want to fight for their country, why are we leaving? The Taliban will now allow terrorist groups to operate within their borders, will they not? 

It seems to me that our military overrated their training of the Afghans. 

And of course Americans dont give a shit about Afghanistan. The only reason they ever cared about it is because that is the place that enabled Al-Qaeda in the 9-11 attacks. 20 years later and a lot less terrorism lately around the world no one gives a shit about Afghanistan. 

Well, they give enough of a shit to complain about Biden, but thats about it. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
5.1.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    one month ago
and the American people dont give a shit about Afghans.

I don't think that's really true, John.  If it were true, we wouldn't have been there as long as we were, nation-building.

But at a certain point, the Afghan government and military needed to become self-sufficient.  They didn't do that.  It appears they never really approached self-sufficiency.  Many of them turned tail and ran, including the President (now former President, I suppose).

And now they'll go back to the brutal regime they were under in the 90s.

We should have done a lot differently.  Like not funding the mujahideen in the 70s and 80s (thanks, Carter and Reagan).  The pullout should have been planned much better, without a mad rush to evacuate due to not knowing just how close the Taliban were to taking over Kabul.  There should have been provisions made for the safe evacuation of Afghans who have helped our forces - interpreters, intelligence operatives, etc.  We've let them down.  I think most American people care about that, but aren't in the position to do anything about it.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
5.1.6  Colour Me Free  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @5.1    one month ago

Awww Sister Mary Agnes .. my thoughts are the same as yours .. we say genocide is bad, yet it continues to be allowed - hell I even think there is a magic number of dead before it can be called a genocide .. it is scary to think the killing has only just begun ..

The Afghan military cannot fight the Taliban, it becomes a psychological war .. those in the military knew if they could not hold ground against the Taliban their deaths and the deaths of their families would be far worse than their deaths will be by surrendering ..

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
5.1.7  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.4    one month ago
If the Afghans are known not to want to fight for their country, why are we leaving?

Simple.  20 years of America and it's allies trying to bring civility to that backwards feudal shithole is enough.   There's an old saying that you likely know...  "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."   

The Taliban will now allow terrorist groups to operate within their borders, will they not? 

Very possibly.  But have no fear we do have abilities to monitor such things from far, far away.  Hell we still watch the CIA annex in Libya.

It seems to me that our military overrated their training of the Afghans. 

The training is only as good as the student.  They need to WANT to learn and have the DESIRE to defend their country.  But as I noted, they don't think in "country", they think in my "village".

And of course Americans dont give a shit about Afghanistan. The only reason they ever cared about it is because that is the place that enabled Al-Qaeda in the 9-11 attacks. 20 years later and a lot less terrorism lately around the world no one gives a shit about Afghanistan. 

That's why I noted the other day that we should have done what we do so very well.  Go in, break things, kill people and get the fuck outta dodge.   Our military was never developed nor trained to 'nation' build.  

Well, they give enough of a shit to complain about Biden, but thats about it. 

Biden and his team totally fucked it up.  First, it WAS Trumps plan to get out, but he made sure of two things.  First, he let the Taliban know if they attacked Americans while leaving, there was no rock remote enough that they would be able to hide under, and second and more importantly, he also said it would be based on his military advisers.

Now, Biden accepted the Trump plan, which he could have denied.  Biden SHOULD have listened to his military advisers to not withdraw now but wait till the Afghan winter non-fighting season (as stupid as it sounds, yes there IS a fighting season in Afghanistan, and that's now when the mountains aren't snow covered and impassible.)  Lastly, Biden BROADCAST to the enemy what he was going to do and exactly when he was going to do it.

The last time I was in Afghanistan was a period of four months over two years 2011-2012 when the embassy was going through some major renovations.  The Afghans I met there are actually very nice people only wishing to be allowed to live their lives in peace.  Unfortunately, they were denied that under Taliban rule but even then could not get beyond speaking of their "village" and not their "country".   Remember, their language does not even have a word to describe democracy.  They don't understand that concept.  

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
5.1.8  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.5    one month ago
I don't think that's really true, John.  If it were true, we wouldn't have been there as long as we were, nation-building.

But at a certain point, the Afghan government and military needed to become self-sufficient.  They didn't do that.  It appears they never really approached self-sufficiency.  Many of them turned tail and ran, including the President (now former President, I suppose).

And now they'll go back to the brutal regime they were under in the 90s.

Damn....   Now I KNOW hell can freeze over!!  LOL

As I responded to John, Afghanis don't think in terms of country as western societies do.  They operate in the 18th century under town and village rulers or better known as War Lords.

 
 
 
FortunateSon
Freshman Silent
5.1.9  FortunateSon  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.5    one month ago
nation-building.

Nation building has only worked once and it took two nuclear explosions first then a 60yr ban on military aspirations.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
5.1.10  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Colour Me Free @5.1.6    one month ago

Pretty much similar to the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) in South Vietnam in 1975 when the North Vietnamese took over. The majority just laid down their arms and quit fighting. Many were flat out executed or sent to communist reeducation camps along with their families where many died anyway.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.1.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @5.1.10    one month ago

And there were the "Boat people", those who escaped on small boats and were rescued.  In Toronto, my wife and I were one of five couples who as a group sponsored a boat person and his daughter and brought them to Toronto and helped them.  Suu Trang was a Vietnamese policeman, and he worked hard and eventually bought his own home, remarried, and put his daughter (who became a friend of my daughter) through university.  They became part of our circle of friends.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
Junior Participates
5.1.12  Colour Me Free  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @5.1.10    one month ago

Ooo I know, it has [I think] to do with the minds need to say 'what if' .. what if I do this .. will it change that..?  

There is also probably a mentality that is saying the US will not let this happen ..?     1k troops were on the ground in Kabul.. 3k additional were ordered in .. another 1k and another 1k .. 6k troops to help evacuate .. when there was only around 2500 troops present in the country before Biden started the drawdown .. interesting apparently a small residual force did serve an important purpose after all... 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
PhD Quiet
5.1.13  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.1.11    one month ago

I was stationed in the Philippines at a small Naval communications station North of the Subic Bay complex from 1984 through 1987. We were  right on the beach and had several boat people come ashore at the beach right outside the base requesting asylum from the US. I worked at the medical clinic on base and we were going night and day trying to assess and take care of those folks , some of whom were not in good shape from their sea voyage on barely sea worthy vessels. I will never forget the look real of sheer desperation and relief on their faces as we took care of them. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.1.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @5.1.13    one month ago

Good for you.  I know what you mean about their physical condition.  Suu's daughter needed immediate serious dental care, and of course our group covered it.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
5.1.15  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.5    one month ago
I think most American people care about that, but aren't in the position to do anything about it.

And there we have it.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
5.2  dennis smith  replied to  JohnRussell @5    one month ago

Believe it or not JR we agree. Unfortunately due to both the intelligence community and military advisors failures, the withdrawal went poorly.

We will see if Biden will take action to address this or continue with the same advisors.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
5.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  dennis smith @5.2    one month ago

That would mean he would have to admit there is a problem first. If the statement by Blinken is any indication they are already in full denial.

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
5.2.2  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  Ronin2 @5.2.1    one month ago
That would mean he would have to admit there is a problem first. If the statement by Blinken is any indication they are already in full denial.

When told about the situation in Afghanistan while zoning out in Camp David he proclaimed 'My dear Grandma used to crochet Afghans....  now where is that one I liked.?"

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6  JohnRussell    one month ago
Naftali further mused that Biden made the withdrawal decision in order to follow through on ending “a mission he didn’t believe in anymore.” He further warned of the possibility that Afghanistan will once again become a sanctuary for radical Islamic extremism.

“If that occurs,” he concluded, “this is the Saigon moment for President Biden, and this will be an albatross around his neck for the rest of time.”

Tim Naftali: Kabul Could be Joe Biden's 'Saigon Moment' (mediaite.com)

This is objectively nonsense. The Fall Of Saigon has not been associated with Gerald Ford (the U.S. president at the time) "until the end of time."  Or much at all. 

 
 
 
exexpatnowinTX
Freshman Guide
6.1  exexpatnowinTX  replied to  JohnRussell @6    one month ago
The Fall Of Saigon has not been associated with Gerald Ford (the U.S. president at the time) "until the end of time."

Except when it is.   Like you just did.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  exexpatnowinTX @6.1    one month ago
Except when it is.   Like you just did.

So you agree that The Fall Of Saigon has not been historically associated with the person who was president at the time.  Thanks

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
6.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.1    one month ago

Damn John, you can't read at all.

This is on Biden, period. No amount of spin will ever change it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Ronin2 @6.1.2    one month ago

Trump made a deal last year for all US troops to leave at this time. Biden agreed it was a good idea to honor that deal. 

How you decide it is only one of their fault is beyond human comprehension. 

The fault is with the military leaders who advised these presidents that it was a good idea. 

Generals should be resigning as we speak. 

 
 
 
Larry ames
Freshman Silent
6.1.4  Larry ames  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.1    one month ago

Gerald Ford and the liberal democrats in congress are the ones who pulled out of Vietnam and left our allies to die. I guess Biden proved that History does repeat itself. The US has gone from being the greatest country to the greatest threat in the world. Proof of what our enemies said is true. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
6.1.5  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    one month ago

Biden chose to follow their advise. The buck stops with him. If he doesn't want to do the job and take responsibility; then he should step down for someone that will.

The generals should resign,  as well as the intelligence heads (Intelligence should be removed from any and all government agencies- there is no intelligence operating in any of them).

We have 3 more years of this massive fuck up in the White House. We will not let the Democrats and left forget who put him there.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
6.1.6  dennis smith  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    one month ago

Piss poor planning leads to piss poor performance and that is exactly what is happening in Afghan. 

Trump had conditions and Biden did not.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
6.1.7  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Ronin2 @6.1.5    one month ago

' We have 3 more years of this massive f&#) up in the White House. We will not let the Democrats and left forget who put him there. '

800

Alternatively, we might initially have asked why we expected to succeed when equally well intended Russians failed.

I suppose that's the great thing about US citizenship -- you have a right to refuse to learn anything from anyone.

It makes sense, no?

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
6.1.8  pat wilson  replied to  Trotsky's Spectre @6.1.7    one month ago
Alternatively, we might initially have asked why we expected to succeed when equally well intended Russians failed.

I've always wondered about that. We watched Russia fail to succeed there for nine plus years. Why didn't we learn from that ? 

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
6.1.9  dennis smith  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    one month ago

Getting out of Afghan was the correct move. With that being said,

The intelligence community who failed to advise Bidet of this happening should also resign. 

Or Biden should resign for since he is after all the CIC and is responsible for those who lead the intelligence community.

If the buck really stops with him but only for the decision to leave, placing blame on everyone except himself shows he does not really accept responsibility for what happened. 

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
6.1.10  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  pat wilson @6.1.8    4 weeks ago

By contrast, Najibullah's government survived Soviet withdrawal by three years. Maybe we thought our puppet regime would be more stable.

 
 
 
Larry ames
Freshman Silent
7  Larry ames    one month ago

This is the second time a Democrat has pulled out from under one of our allies. Under the democrats we should start teaching our children French in school. I am so ashamed to be an American when I see what is going on in Afghanistan. It reminds me of the embassy in Saigon back in 75. We deserted our allies under another democrat. We have gone from being the greatest country in the world to being the greatest treat in the world. We are proving that what our enemies said about us is true. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Larry ames @7    one month ago

I don't see anything wrong with being taught French in school - I was.  Since your comment refers to history, maybe it should go back a little farther and be a reminder that had it not been for the French you would be a British subject today.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
7.2  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Larry ames @7    one month ago

'...the greatest country in the world ... the greatest t[h?]reat in [to?] the world.'

Do you suppose the US could have 'won' WW II without the Red Army? We destroyed 25 German divisions. Our Russian allies ... what -- 300?

I wonder ...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Trotsky's Spectre @7.2    one month ago

It was in a comment in the movie Schindler's List that the greatest threat to a German soldier was to send him to the Russian front.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
7.2.2  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.1    one month ago

'...the Russian front.'

Very true. And at what a cost Hitler's divisions were destroyed! The Red Army would have finished Germany even if the US hadn't entered the war. The thought which presses itself on my mind is that it eventually dawned on US political criminals involved that unless they made some showing, they would have no say or place at the table then Germany finally capitulated. Churchill was likewise willing to see Russians and Germans butcher each other. So were others.

The fat Knight of Eastcheap, Sir John Falstaf, comes to mind...

Edit: Correct subject-verb agreement.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
7.3  Split Personality  replied to  Larry ames @7    3 weeks ago

What I remember about Saigon was this.

Charles McMahon (May 10, 1953 – April 29, 1975) and Darwin Lee Judge (February 16, 1956 – April 29, 1975) were the last two United States servicemen killed in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. The two men, both U.S. Marines, were killed in a rocket attack one day before the Fall of Saigon.
Their bodies were left behind and not recovered for a year. They joined 58,218 other service people killed in the line of duty.
We abandoned $1 billion in aircraft and arms to the Vietnamese.

SAIGON, South Vietnam, March 28—The South Vietnamese have lost more than $1‐billion in American military weapons and other equipment over the last two weeks, according to qualified Vietnamese sources.

The abandonment of hundreds of artillery pieces, trucks, planes, mortars, tanks, armored personnel carriers, rifles and ammunition—coupled with the rapid retreat of army units—is viewed by Vietnamese and Western sources as a stunning and, quite possibly irreversible military and psychological blow for South Vietnam.

A senior Western official, who has spent more than a decade in South Vietnam, said today: “These losses are very, very, very considerable. It's a catastrophic loss.”

Another informed Western source said: “We've made no attempt to quantify the loss, but it's staggering. The equipment has not been saved at all and we're facing a devastating failure.”

$1,000,000,000 in 1975 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $5,074,405,204.46 today , an increase of $4,074,405,204.46 over 46 years.

Vietnam was the classic clusterfuck of trusting the indigenous uneducated people to actually understand why they were fighting communism.

No calls for the POTUS to resign.  Westmoreland skated.

We repeated the clusterfuck in Afghanitan with just as much money wasted,

only 2,372 killed, none since April of 2020,

this time we managed to air lift 10's of thousands of tonnes of material

out of Kabul with 55,000 US citizens and visa holders

Zero Vietnamese were evacuated by Nixon.  They took to the seas.

The clock is ticking to see what unfolds on August 31.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
7.3.1  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @7.3    3 weeks ago

70,000 and counting.

The Taliban are getting nervous that all of the skilled people are leaving.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
7.3.2  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Split Personality @7.3.1    3 weeks ago

I saw a blurb on my newsfeed yesterday with the taliban spokesman saying ,"stop taking our skilled engineers , drs and so forth " when it was reported they were not letting afghan citizens leave .

made me stop and think . ( i know incredible huh?)

 
 
 
FortunateSon
Freshman Silent
8  FortunateSon    one month ago

Joe's shit show just got worse.

Event :  The security situation in Kabul is changing quickly including at the airport.  There are reports of the airport taking fire; therefore we are instructing U.S. citizens to shelter in place.

" shelter in place"

That is government speak for they are on their own = benghazi 1000 fold.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
9  Ender    one month ago

What a load of bullshit from a lot of people.

There was only two choices, stay there or leave.

No matter who was in charge, this would have happened.

People are kidding themselves otherwise.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1  dennis smith  replied to  Ender @9    one month ago

Bullshit, how we left is the issue. Intelligence community failed, military generals failed. Biden blames everyone except himself but says the buck stops with him which is more bullshit. 

Piss poor planning leads to piss poor performance and Biden wont accept responsibility for those who work for him in the intelligence community. He is also the CIC and is responsibility for those who work at his direction.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Ender  replied to  dennis smith @9.1    one month ago

Again, no matter who was in charge, the same thing would have happened.

People that don't think so are deluding themselves.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Ender @9.1.1    one month ago

Agree 1000%.  The President Biden haters just see this as another opportunity to hate him.  

I don't see President Biden blaming anyone.

It's his haters.  

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.3  dennis smith  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.2    one month ago

You must have missed his minute speech after Kabul was overtaken.

He said the Afghan military had 300,000 soldiers Taliban only had 75,000 and that this would not happen. Now he blames the Afghan soldiers. 

Trump had a conditions based withdrawal plan, Biden had none so now he blames Trump.

The buck stops here comment only applies to withdrawing to which most Americans agree.

His piss poor planning led directly to his piss poor performance.

Even the left supporting media have called him out on his preparation and planning.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.4  dennis smith  replied to  Ender @9.1.1    one month ago

Pure speculation. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1    one month ago

None of us know the details since this is classified information.

But what we do know is that the military under Biden is the same military under any PotUS.    Seems to me that an operational blunder is something that would take place squarely under the command of the military leaders.

A PotUS authorizes initiatives but does not manage the execution of same.  Thus it is a good chance that what took place here would have happened under any PotUS withdrawing from Afghanistan.

The question I have is how did the speedy acquisition by the Taliban surprise our military.

Forget the mindless and emotional partisan finger pointing.   Where, specifically did we (the USA) screw up and who is responsible?   Biden is ultimately responsible but I am looking for the source of the military and intelligence failures.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
9.1.6  seeder  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.5    one month ago
Forget the mindless and emotional partisan finger pointing.   Where, specifically did we (the USA) screw up and who is responsible?   Biden is ultimately responsible but I am looking for the source of the military and intelligence failures.

jrSmiley_12_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.7  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1    one month ago
Biden wont accept responsibility for those who work for him

He won't?     Biden accepts responsibility ('buck stops here') yet you call that bullshit and demand that he accept responsibility.

So, basically, you refuse to acknowledge an acceptance of responsibility and then fault Biden for not doing so.

What a perfect example of pure-partisan 'thinking'.    You mention bullshit, well, Dennis, you just dropped a load of it on this forum.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.7    one month ago

That's all he ever drops.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
9.1.9  Ender  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.4    one month ago

So you actually think under a donald plan, the taliban would have sat back and waited...not likely.

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
9.1.10  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  dennis smith @9.1    4 weeks ago

'...poor planning ... poor performance...'

Beyond the Afghan 1% and Next 9%, there wasn't a shred of support for the US puppet government. Pleas for partisan explanation merit naught but contempt.

By the way, it is reported in Russia that Ghani fled Kabul with four cars and a helicopter full of money.

Why should Afghans fight for such parasites and their NATO handlers!

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.11  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.7    4 weeks ago

The only thing Biden accepts responsibility for his "the buck stops here" comment is his decision to leave.

You are correct, Bidet is ultimately responsible for what happens on his watch and that includes the military and intelligence failures. So far he has not admitted those failures. Once he does and fires those he has put in charge, he may gain some credibility, NOT until then.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.12  dennis smith  replied to  Ender @9.1.9    4 weeks ago

Those are your words not mine.  

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.13  dennis smith  replied to  Trotsky's Spectre @9.1.10    4 weeks ago

Another failure by the intelligence community that works under "the buck stops here" Biden.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
9.1.14  Ender  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.12    4 weeks ago

So then you think the same thing would have happened...

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.11    4 weeks ago

I am confident that no matter what Biden does you will devise another avenue of complaint.

So back to my point.

How on Earth did our military devise a withdrawal plan (detailed logistics) that did not factor in contingencies such as an early Taliban entrance?    How is it possible that our military which operates on the principle of never leaving our people behind leave so many behind?

This is a fundamental failure at a level far below where Biden operates.   How did this happen?

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.16  dennis smith  replied to  Ender @9.1.14    4 weeks ago

Again, those are your words not mine. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.17  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.15    4 weeks ago

Are you dismissing Biden as CIC? What happens on his watch IS his responsibility.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.18  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.17    4 weeks ago
Are you dismissing Biden as CIC? What happens on his watch IS his responsibility.

Are you unable to read what I wrote??:

TiG @9.1.5 ☞ Biden is ultimately responsible but I am looking for the source of the military and intelligence failures.

Pay attention.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.19  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.18    4 weeks ago

The source is those who Biden has put into place and who he refuses to listen to. 

Listen up 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.19    4 weeks ago

Biden did not devise the plans.   Biden did not get into the minds of the military and remove their understanding of how to plan for contingencies.   Nor did he erase from their minds the knowledge of how fragile the Afghanistan government and military were or the knowledge that an evacuation must take place before the protective military force departs.   A PotUS makes the big decisions, not the detailed plans.   It is the plan makers who routinely identify and plan for contingencies and logistics.

Note that if Biden was informed of the need to retain military and refused to allow same then that would be a specific example of Biden's role in this overall failure.   And until we know the details (assuming we ever do), Biden is ultimately responsible regardless (as I stated upfront).

I doubt that this will sink in, but my question has been how those individuals could fail so badly in what are basic and routine aspects of their jobs.

Attempt to think beyond Biden and maybe you will understand what I wrote.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
9.1.21  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.20    3 weeks ago
ttempt to think beyond Biden and maybe you will understand what I wrote.

nope

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.22  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.20    3 weeks ago

They work at the request of Biden. It sounds like you are saying he has put individuals in place who have no business being in those positions so he is in fact responsible. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.23  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.22    3 weeks ago
It sounds like you are saying he has put individuals in place who have no business being in those positions so he is in fact responsible. 

No.  I have stated multiple times that of course Biden is ultimately responsible.   You cannot get past Biden to comprehend any other aspect.   Pathetic, uber-simplistic partisan thinking.

This continues to apply:

TiG @9.1.20 ☞ Attempt to think beyond Biden and maybe you will understand what I wrote.
 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.24  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.23    3 weeks ago

You said it, Biden is ultimately responsible. No amount of deflection or spin changes that.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.25  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.24    3 weeks ago

You continue to show no comprehension of anything beyond the overly simplistic:  'Biden's fault'.   

The problem goes beyond poor executive decisions.   As I have noted,  this situation also includes fundamental failures in the machinery of our government (military and civilian).   That concerns me more than any bad decision by a PotUS since our machinery spans administrations.   There are fundamental problems in our system yet you cannot see anything beyond a pathetic, childishly simplistic partisan view.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
9.1.26  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.25    3 weeks ago

Who is in charge of the military? Answer Biden 

Who is in charge of the intelligence community? Answer Biden

Agreed that there have always been problems in our system, that does not excuse what Biden has done/not done in Afghan. 

Get people out, destroy military weapons, get military out. That was not what Biden did and he is responsible for what is happening now. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.27  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @9.1.26    3 weeks ago
Agreed that there have always been problems in our system, that does not excuse what Biden has done/not done in Afghan. 

Where do you see me excusing Biden?  

Take off your fucking partisan blinders and attempt to comprehend what I wrote.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Masters Participates
9.1.28  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @9.1.27    3 weeks ago
Take off your fucking partisan blinders and attempt to comprehend what I

as i already did state in defense of Dennis, "nope" , as there is NO attempt at all, which is all too common when dealing with certain ones. Minds to small to comprehend much, and sometimes nothing at all , comprehended or reached, by a round or rectangular cylinder attempted stuffed in a triangular slot, some don't no a whole lott, except where to park a biased opinion that wouldn't couldn't change even if threatened shot, by a vaccine most have not even got, as they already have immunity to the Truth sold and bought, while unable to realize what their ignorance has wrought , on US All, cause apparently only thing truly sought, is our downfall,   which sorta sux for us all

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
10  Mark in Wyoming     4 weeks ago

What i am finding myself at a loss for is the fact this withdrawl was negotiated some time ago, Why did the companies that employed US citizens not start removing them  knowing that military presence would be gone? why did the government not issue advisories before the military leaving happen? why didnt the military officials themselves advise  those people in country  about the situation that was possable?

i blame somewhat the fact that intelligence agencies dont like to let others  know what they know , or the fact the government themselves do not want to create a mass panic , but the companies themselves should have seen the writing on the wall  as well, and taken appropriate steps .

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
10.1  Ender  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @10    4 weeks ago

That is what I have been saying all along. As soon as there was word about the pullout, they should have been making arrangements to get out of there.

I blame them for sitting around when everyone knew what would happen.

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
11  dennis smith    4 weeks ago

People out first, military equipment out second, military personnel out last is the process.

Biden blew it by not following the above. Intelligence people have said he did not listen to them.

Even the mainstream media are on calling him out about the way things have unfolded.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12  Kavika     4 weeks ago

As always the defense contractors made billions, it’s the American way.

 
 
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