Engaging With Trump's Die-Hard Supporters Isn't Productive
Category: News & Politics
Via: john-russell • 4 years ago • 156 commentsBy: Tom Nichols (The Atlantic)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The loyalists who still cling to conspiracy theories should be deprived of the attention they seek.
6:30 AM ET Tom Nichols Author of The Death of Expertise 
Chris Bergin / Reuters
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President-elect Joe Biden made national unity a centerpiece of his campaign, and no patriotic American who wants to repair the damage of the Donald Trump years can argue with such a noble call. The election is over, and we can now undertake the tasks Trump neglected, including fighting the coronavirus pandemic and restoring our alliances. But millions of Americans are not ready to declare that bygones are bygones and engage the loyal Trump supporters they might still find among their neighbors, friends, or families.
They are not wrong to feel this way.
That may sound like a profoundly un-civic, even un-American, stance. After all, Democrats, independents, and what's left of the last few sensible Republicans should not stop trying to solve problems together. To cease all political communication would not only be foolish, but our system of government does not allow it. Even in the minority, a party can help or hinder the process of governing.
Nonetheless, ordinary people worn out by the dramas and lies of the past four years have a right to refuse to take Trump's most enthusiastic supporters seriously. To reject further debate with people whose views are completely incoherent is not only understandable, but sensible.
I am not talking about all 74 million people who voted for Trump. Some voters may well have supported Trump in both 2016 and 2020 with a sense of hesitancy, perhaps focused on a single issue, such as abortion, or because they were making a raw and self-interested calculation about taxes. Trump picked these voters up from Republican campaigns that came before him, and he will bequeath them to the Republican candidates who come after him. Some of these voters, as we learned this year, can be persuaded to reject candidates such as Trump.
Peter Wehner: Trump is losing his mind
Instead, I am talking about the people who are giving Trump their full-throated support to the very end, even as he mulls a military coup; the people who buy weird paintings of Trump crossing the Delaware, or who believe that Trump is an agent of Jesus Christ, or who think that Trump is fighting a blood-drinking ring of pedophiles. These supporters have gone far beyond political loyalty and have succumbed to a kind of mass delusion. It is not possible to engage them. Indeed, to argue with them is to legitimize their beliefs, which itself is unhealthy for our democracy.
I don't want to treat our fellow citizens with open contempt, or to confront and berate them. Rather, I am arguing for silence. The Trump loyalists who still cling to conspiracy theories and who remain part of a cult of personality should be deprived of the attention they seek, shunned for their antidemocratic lunacy, and then outvoted at the ballot box.
If we've learned one thing about "Trumpism," it is that there is no such thing as "Trumpism." No content anchors it; no program or policy comes from it. No motivating ideology stands behind it, unless we think of general grievance and a hatred of cultural and intellectual elites as an "idea." And when views are incoherent and beliefs are rooted in fantasies, compromise is impossible. Further engagement is not only unwarranted, but it can also become counterproductive.
This is why I see no point in a "national conversation" or in "reaching out," or other euphemisms for attempts to better understand the movement that formed around Trump. We already understand: Trump tapped into traditions of ethnic and regional grievances and social resentments that are present in every democracy and wedded them to bizarre theories and conspiracies.
Perhaps most important, much of our own sense of well-being will be lost if we continue to engage with people who believe that millions of votes were falsified from coast to coast, that the military should move into the swing states and hold new elections, or even that thousands of Chinese troops were bombed into submission on the border of Maine.
David Frum: How long can this continue?
Ordinary people should tune out the noise. No one needs to think one more minute about why a woman from New York would speed along in her car while ranting into her phone about stolen elections when she ought to have been watching the road. And the media have a particular obligation to end their fascination with these Trump voters. We don't need yet another pilgrimage to diners and gas stations to hear from people whose only sources of information are cable-news hosts plumping fantasies about Venezuelan voting machines. We need not ruminate on the evangelical writer who thinks we must pray for the crackpot lawyer Sidney Powell. And journalists should stop providing media oxygen to would-be heroes such as the Texas mayor who said that if Trump called on him to take up arms, he'd engage in civil war.
The only people who need to engage such voters are political strategists, because enough of these voters in the right states can drive the Electoral College into a ditch. But the rest of us no longer need to participate in long chin-pulling exercises about "what they really want" or why they cannot grasp reality.
We must go on as a nation, and as families. Of course you still love your uncle, even if he is bellowing about stolen elections at Christmas dinner, just as you love your sister-in-law even while she's trying to ruin a wedding reception by holding forth on socialist saboteurs. But neither they nor the millions of other diehards deserve our engagement. The sooner we refuse to continue such conversations, the sooner we might return to being a serious nation.
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I wish it was as easy as just saying ignore them and they will go away. We can see here on Newstalkers that they cannot be ignored. They will troll you.
John, sit back and have a good laugh. Don't flag anything. Just let the foolishness and lack of knowledge and understanding across all forms of social media shine through.
Don't I know it....
"Engaging With Trump's Die-Hard Supporters Isn't Productive"
Why would we be here if it wasn't for "them"?
Started out on the vine to fight AGW deniers.
Figured out that fighting on-line was safer than stabbing and shooting my enemies on the street.
I hear that. the 60's-70's me would be ashamed of my ultimate hopes for them now.
Pretty sure that Perrie enjoys the traffic.
This is a 180 spin opposite of what you’ve been saying about the last four years. Your friends on the left have said stuff like that and you always disagreed with them. The problem is we aren’t going anywhere. The house and senate are going to be closely divided no matter who controls them. We still have a majority of governors and state legislative bodies adding to both and are stronger at the local level. Your wish for a blue wave and a rout of Trumpism was not fulfilled. We are not ashamed or in hiding. We are the loyal opposition and we intend to keep Trump and his ideas of America First nationalism populist conservatism up front and in your faces 24/7/365 the next four years.
You support a psychologically disturbed moron who is upset because his flunkies in Congress wont help him steal the presidential election.
And you want this idiocy to continue for four more years as Trump sets up his Magastan in exile. What else is there to say ?
'Engaging With Trump's Die-Hard Supporters Isn't Productive.'
This is among the finer insights to be posted on internet fora.
I said years ago that the opportunity for dialogue was over and that it was time to bring closure.
Interaction fuels the debasement of civic discourse and empowers political reaction.
But engagement means more than dialogue.
To say that engagement is unproductive means also that we cannot build or be a national community together.
Time was when it would be heard that 'we are all Americans.'
Even if heard only in reactionary contexts [as urging support for yet another 'for profit' war], 'we are all Americans' was at least heard.
Today, that is replaced by a counter-narrative which specifically excludes principled dissent from its central features.
This tells us that it is time to build a separate, civic culture. In the absence of a unifying narrative, it is necessary to face the reality that the division is beyond remedy. It is necessary to discuss separation in the hope of being better neighbors than we were countrymen.
Well, the die-hard Trump supporters are not going away. They, too, have grievances. They, too, are outraged. They, too, want to have a say in the future of the country. Die-hard Trump supporters want the same thing that aggrieved Democrat special interests have been given.
You know, MAGA represents a minority in the United States, too. And MAGA wants the same sympathetic acceptance and preferential treatment that other minorities receive. MAGA wants an accommodating press that will lie on their behalf. MAGA wants political leaders who will institutionalize favored treatment for their benefit. MAGA wants their telling of history promoted by academia and want students indoctrinated with their history, too.
Treating the MAGA minority the way other minorities have been treated in the past won't make them go away. What has been surprising is how Democrats are treating the MAGA minority in the same manner that feeds outrage among Democratic special interest groups. Apparently the United States also has a problem with Democratic privilege that allows ignoring minorities, too. Democrat's bigotry has been obvious. Don't complain because the minority experiencing systemic, institutionalized discrimination from Democrats rise up and demands justice.
According to MAGA they aren't a minority
Have been curious for years what "make America great again" actually means.
America doesn't have the best track record for democracy.
Don't forget folks, this insane person is still POTUS!
As am I. It's something that has never been specifically defined. It's just a rallying cry meant to emotionally sway people.
And then we have to define the Greatest Generation. Good killers?
Just finished reading the book Patton. That guy wasn't happy unless he was leading young boys to their deaths.
You are correct in that America does not have the best track record for democracy, but then again please name another country that does. It would make for a very short list.
Well based on a 2012 report from The Economist Intelligence Unit, there are 22 full democracies with very good track records for democracy.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170320185156/
That data is easily reviewed on the chart @
The US is ranked as a 'flawed democracy'.
I suggest you reread the listing in the article you posted. It shows the US as #21 out of 25 countries with acceptable track records for democracy. The flawed democracy category begins at #26, thus the US is not ranked as a flawed democracy.
I don't think it was that bad until these last few months. Lately, IMO, it's been a disaster.
I'll vote for Canada, and I think New Zealand is pretty good.
On that I agree.
It means different things to the maga crowd but it has several common themes that bind them and that is it derives from hate and demands retribution.
Trump has been successful at exposing what republicans used to be good at, albeit warped, cognitive reframing.
maga crowd - new republican party
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Could you clarify please?
"I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Could you clarify please?"
[deleted]
Then I don't know what you're trying to say.
Don't feel bad, or alone.
Just know, whenever he posts - OBAMA BAD [-deleted GOOD!]
I suppose not. Although I don't see why clarification is an issue. But whatever.
You describe MAGA as the epitome of white grievance. Whites are so abused in America. LOL. For 400 years America was all about what whites wanted to happen. Now it is changing. Adapt.
The very people who go on and on about "content of character" complain because whites are being "mistreated" by the attention being paid to minorities. We have to reconcile the past. If people would just accept it then it wouldnt seem like such a big and painful deal.
"White grievance" and "the war on Christians", fall into the same camp. 1 group of people demanding special recognition and special rights, and if they don't get it, it is because they are being discriminated on.
Another example would the the ultra wealthy complaining that they are being taxed too much, despite them paying a much smaller percentage of taxes than everyone else.
And that dismissive attitude has become the foundation of Democratic privilege. Underprivilege has become the new preferential privilege encoded into law, rewritten into history, and used to indoctrinate our children.
Rich Black people denigrating poor white people for their 'white privilege' really has created a lot of anger. Barack Obama wasn't underprivileged. Very few white people can afford Harvard, let alone get into Harvard. There certainly aren't any preferential programs for poor white people. If a poor white kid can't afford to attend college, well, they're just deplorable because they have 'white privilege'. Just ask any rich Black kid.
Thanks for the white grievance.
I assume you know something about the generational history of economic discrimination against racial minorities in America, where people of color were told to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps". That didnt work, did it?
Psychobabble.
Rich White people denigrating poor black people for their 'lack of ambition' really has created a lot of anger...
Obama got a scholarship to Occidental and just like most Americans, incurred student loan DEBT for his continued education, at Columbia and Harvard.
Well as a percentage, 'white people' had and STILL have a better chance of affording and getting into Harvard.
Perhaps few 'white people' have the academic prowess that Obama does.
BTW, Obama turned down a full ride scholarship to NWU school of law to go to Harvard.
More psychobabble.
Well its true.
For example, the War on Christmas.
(At this this point hardly anyone is allowed to celebrate Christmas anymore).
That last comment was meant as Sarcasm...
Heh
Hung out with Neil Tyson for a few days back in the day. Smart person.
Dylan sang it best. The times they are a changin.
The United States of America has not existed for 400 years John.
"America" existed as a geographical location of interest to the rest of the world before the first slaves were brought to this place in the early 1600's. That is where the 400 years comes in.
It's 500 years if we consider the exploitation of the natives that predated the whites.
This is a direct result of TDS.
You are confused Dennis. I don't "blame" white grievance on Trump. It has been building up for a long time , starting when racial minorities started to get their civil rights. White grievance accelerated when Barack Obama ran for and won the presidency and the whites prone to white grievance saw the handwriting on the wall. Social scientists began to predict that whites would be a minority group in a few decades and that freaked a lot of people out as well.
Fear Of A Black Planet: White People Becoming Minorities In America Sooner Than Expected, New Census Data Confirms
For the first time in history, non-white people and Hispanics made up the bulk of those who are age 16 and younger and living in the U.S.
Trump just took advantage of this trend, beginning with his racist birtherism in 2011, which was intentionally done to build a political base for himself for a future presidential run.
tRumpTurd denial syndrome - accepting everything that the tRumpTurd does or doesn't do, without question.
Nerm , the people who vote for the Democratic or Republican candidate for president have a right to be taken seriously, until they don't.
There is a long laundry list of issues that reasonable Americans could have with MAGAs. Why did they vote for someone in 2016 who was, at that time, a known pathological liar, crook, bigot, moron, and cheat? In 2011 Trump took part in a racist conspiracy theory against the sitting president, who happened to be the nation's first black president. How is it that he was then, just a few years later, able to get the Republican nomination for president? Do you think that is right? Donald Trump defrauded people, in some cases, out of their life savings to enrich himself with his Trump University scam. Did that make him presidential material? He has tried to bribe the president of a foreign country to investigate Trump's election opponent. Is that "presidential". He said that white nationalists were "fine people" too at Charlottesville. Is that presidential?
MAGA needs to END, not be shown sympathy.
MAGA has been based upon cultural traditions. Yes, like most cultural traditions, that does include a mythologized slant toward history. Why should MAGA celebrate other cultures when they aren't allowed to celebrate their own?
MAGA isn't seeking sympathy. That's a reflection of the Democratic mindset based upon phony empathy to pursue political advantage. Democrats express sympathy for people they do not know and obviously do not care about. Democrats have defrauded people for a very long time with their fake empathy. Empty words are no better than lies.
"White culture" has been celebrated for centuries, and is often the only "culture" allowed in many majority white countries. They have often forcibly invaded other cultures lands and wiped out the existing cultures to leave only their own. They have forced their white Christian patriarchy on others at the point of a sword or gun for centuries. And now, just when other cultures and faiths are being allowed some breathing room within the white Christian establishment, they whine and complain about their own culture no longer having the spotlight, no longer being allowed a privileged position. Those who feel this way and refuse to recognize the fact that allowing other cultures, races and faiths the same space as their own isn't actually taking anything away from them, are sore whiny self absorbed bigots.
What are any white Christians actually being denied? The only things I've seen so far is that they're no longer allowed to discriminate against people their religion or indoctrinated prejudices have told them are somehow inferior. That's not a right even though it's been the norm for centuries. They can still worship the way they want, they can fly their confederate flags or whatever they want at their homes, they're just not allowed to be flown from court houses or government buildings. They can still have all the memorials or monuments to treasonous white supremacists they want on their own land, they can even march in our streets waving swastikas or wearing white hoods and expressing how they hate minorities and chant "Jews will not replace us!". That's their right, but they do not have a right to be free of criticism. They do not have the right to force others to accept them or force media to repeat their lies and disgusting vile white nationalist ideology. Just because someone is them you "No, you can't have our private company bullhorn to spout your racism" doesn't mean their rights are being taken away.
Good, they shouldn't expect any. Few bullies deserve any sympathy, and MAGA has done nothing but try to bully the majority of Americans to accept them. No one is stopping them from going and living their lives in their rural hollars or erecting tax exempt churches on nearly every corner. Their rights are not being infringed upon, just their undeserved privilege is being slowly stripped away. Perhaps like a band-aid, it should have been ripped away in one quick movement, but sadly it's taken decades after the civil rights act and voting rights act to get anywhere close to equality in America and we still deal with the vestiges of systemic racism and inequity.
Ain't gonna end...any more than the American Klan is gonna end..or the Americsan Nazi party is gonna end.
But as more and more people are starting to wake up, there's a good change that pro-Fascist orgsanizations like these can be brought under control.....
Nope, not gonna end and, unfortunately, controlling fascism will never happen.
Do you REALLY believe they're starting to wake up? Up to 74 million didn't, but maybe more are every day since then. How would you intend to bring them under control?
How about just change it to MAG instead of MAGA?
can't change it to MAG, too many fine folks will freak out and consider it a " call" for gun owners to load their magazines!
If the Magats wan't sympathy, they can look up the word in a dictionary. They will find it right between shit and syphilis.
Far right wing ignorant red-neck fascists don't tend to read dictionaries.
I refuse to perpetuate the demands stemming from "White Grievance" which not by coincidence dovetails with what the MAGA mob clings to as they ignore the constitution at every turn.
Racism is no reason to ignore elections.....
Good point. We should not forget that among the MAGA minority are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of white supremacists and white nationalists who are simply angered with what they see as their "white culture" or "white power" being eroded or ignored. Trump has called out to them since even before he ran for President, especially with the years he spent claiming Obama wasn't an American, which is why they came out in droves to stand shoulder to shoulder with other conservative white Christians to vote for reinstituting division which is what Trump promised them. When Trump called Mexicans rapists, they cheered. When Trump called majority black cities "rat infested" or "shitholes" they cheered. When Trump promised to protect the confederate monuments and memorials to vile racist pieces of filth, they cheered and marched in the streets wielding tiki torches waving confederate flags along side swastikas while chanting "Jews will not replace us!".
They are the ones who have isolated themselves and pulled back from the progress and diversity that the rest of America values and works hard to achieve. They are the ones who have dug in their heels as rational Americans continue to move forward towards a truly more perfect union. They are the ones who have created the minority they now exist within, and they are the only ones who will be able to escape that minority by simply accepting facts, reason and equality for all.
Joe Biden is an old white guy; the epitome of white patriarchal elitism. Contrived charges of racism has become the de facto justification for imposition of institutionalized racial preferences to buy votes for the white patriarchal elites.
White patriarchal benevolence is also racist. Joe Biden has built a half-century political career on white patriarchal benevolence. Joe Biden is a product of white privilege.
Joe Biden isn't the one singling out districts in swing states that are majority minority. Trump is.
The racism that motivated the 1964 Civil Rights Act and other legislative remedies wasn't 'contrived' so your comment is moot.
How is white men being kind inherently racist? PLEASE be specific.
So Joe Biden's political career was built on being a kind white guy. The HORROR!
And?
Yes, an old white guy that millions of black Americans voted for. I believe they did so because in this hyper-partisan environment with white supremacists marching in the streets for Donald Trump, picking another old white guy who has welcomed their input and picked a black Asian female as his Vice President was a far better option. I think many of them rejected selecting a strong black leader for the position of President because they felt that would set the bar too high for some white Americans who still secretly harbor prejudices even though they despise Trump. Biden was the compromise and he has promised to be a President for all Americans, not just some base of white grievance voters who imagine their white culture or faith as being under attack when that's clearly not the case.
Isn't a 'majority minority' an oxymoron?
That would be Trump big time. PE Biden was not given millions of dollars by his father like Trump was and managed to squander. Biden's father was initially wealthy but suffered financial setbacks around the time Biden was born. For several years the family lived with Biden's maternal grandparents. During the 1950's, Biden's father could not find steady work. He later became a successful used car salesman, maintaining the family in a middle-class lifestyle. Does that sound like a product of "white privilege"?
Not for the cogent.
In addition to news about current situation, I've always been interested in following trends. (And especially detecting new trends before they reach public awareness).
It will be interesting to see the outcome of the crucial upcoming special election in Georgia...I'll be watching that one closely!
Biden is probably the only white man in America who can get away with saying that kind of stuff. He most definitely is the only one who gets rewarded for saying it.
Trump is no spring orange chicken himself.
You're just pissed off at Joe because he had anal sex with your mother at Woodstock.
I have done research into Biden. Every lie you tell about him is a joke.
Like ewwww.
Other minorities don't want "preferential treatment", they want equal treatment, which is why they differ from the sad delusional MAGA minority who wants preferential treatment to the exclusion of all others. They want the right to discriminate against those they hate, they want the right to inject their brand of religion into public spaces and secular life, they want the right to tell women what they can or can't do with their own bodies, they want the right to exclude others they disagree with from certain government recognized institutions like marriage.
They are outraged over not being able to have preferential treatment like they had been experiencing since our founding but the long arc of justice has finally caught up to them and started stripping them of their pedestal privileges and they don't like it, to which the rest of America who values our diversity says "Go fuck yourselves".
No, but it is deserved.
What actual deserved rights have been stripped away from them? What are they not able to do that you believe they should be able to do? They are being treated just like every other group in America and they don't like it because many are whiny thin skinned bigots who can't stand being treated the same, they demand preferential treatment they don't deserve.
Sure, sure. It's "so obvious" that the vast majority of minorities flock to the Democrat party, and welcomed and given a seat at the table, are supported as candidates and have been working to overcome the systemic inequality that Republicans refuse to even acknowledge exists.
The conservative white Christian 'minority' (which has enjoyed being the majority for centuries) are only rising up because their institutionalized discrimination is being stripped away, they are not the protectors of other minorities which is why they have so few minorities among them. They can go whine and complain all they want but progress marches on. They need to do some self reflection instead of their constant projection of their faults and accept that every other citizen regardless of race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, faith or lack thereof is just as deserving of constitutionally given rights as they are and they are no more American than any other law abiding tax paying citizen.
While I reject your assumption that all minorities think alike, is it your belief that a majority of minorities would favor the removal of all governmental programs that give them preferential treatment?
I think there are some programs that have been created to give historically discriminated minorities a foot in the door to certain schools and jobs that have been denied them for centuries, but ultimately yes, I think most minorities don't want to be treated any differently than anyone else. The fact that we have lived with white affirmative action (only whites accepted for certain jobs, schools, loans, political positions etc.) for over 200 years should at least let us try and correct the horrible errors of our past with black affirmative action and be seen as a positive though temporary measure that was needed. Saying "Okay, even though you've been denied all these benefits that white Americans have received for so long, no one is denying you the right to build your own universities and banks and jobs and we'll no longer openly, publicly deny you those jobs, but we're certainly not going to force anyone to admit you or hire you, so...good luck!" is not enough.
Some day I hope there is no preferential treatment for anyone and that the eyes of justice are truly blind, but I don't foresee that happening in my life time because there are still far too many self centered bigoted white Christians who demand their undeserved preferential treatment and despise anyone else working to level the playing field.
If MAGA is a minority, they created the status themselves. When they all turn black, brown, or any other color than Caucasian, refused service/housing/employment/voting rights due those skin colors, then they can claim they are a minority. For those of colors who are already MAGA's, they don't get to claim they are also MAGA minorities.
They are a POLITICAL minority and unlike 'other minorities' they have NOT been denied equal protection of law.
Your whole post is a deluded false equivalency.
That's true for all of his posts and seeds.
It's a shame that Perrie won't delete far right wing fascism.
Could you possibly cite some of this "right wing fascism", or are you just going off your feelings?
WTF?
We are constantly hearing how Fox News has a greater viewership than any Progressive station!
(Could that be a lie???)
MAGA's don't need the press for that, Trump lies enough for all of them.
This seed is referring to a subset of the MAGA minority. It is referring to the true sycophants; the die-hards who to this day insist that Trump did not lose and that the election was rigged for Biden; who are bona fide suckers for Trump's election fraud con and support every narcissistic action he pursues.
IMO, the people identified by this article have no ability to think for themselves and blindly follow Trump as a demigod. That is not a minority that deserves special consideration by our society any more than the minorities with labels like NAMBLA, NAZI, KKK, etc. Supporting Trump's deranged conspiracy 'rigged election' con is divisive and damaging to society. Suggesting they be treated as a minority like those based on race, gender, etc. is ludicrous.
Yeah, I can accept that much of what is happening is being driven by extreme elements. That's not really unusual; we've seen the same thing happen within the BLM movement.
'Defund the police' and 'occupation zones' came from extreme elements within the BLM movement. We've seen extreme elements within the Antifa movement engage in violence. And the press is drawn to the extreme elements like moths to a flame. The press defines any movement by the actions of extreme elements within the movement and that biased press coverage subsequently influences the rest of the movement.
Extremists are also opportunists. Activists understand that, by being extreme, they attract a lot of attention and that attention will influence the movement.
Trump attracts a lot of attention, doesn't he? Trump can receive more attention from the press with a 280 word Tweet than Joe Biden does with a carefully crafted public relations campaign. Even now people are talking about Trump and not talking about Biden. Doesn't all that press coverage influence the MAGA movement? Hasn't the press ensured that the MAGA movement will endure?
Malcolm X was an activist, not a politician. How did Malcolm X influence the civil rights movement? Didn't Malcolm X attract a lot of followers within the civil rights movement?
In short, you agree that there are ‘bad’ minority groups that should not be given a pass by society?
Yes, to a point. If that becomes a justification for curtailing rights then we are on a path toward a totalitarian society. That's the Nazi model everyone likes to throw around in these discussions.
As I pointed out, extremist activists are also opportunists. Activists recognize and seize upon very real anxieties and apprehensions within a society. Extreme points of view really are indicators of deeper concerns within a society that are not being given attention. Extremists do serve a useful purpose within society.
The list of 'bad' minorities is quite long. Socialists, Antifa, and FFRF are examples of extreme points of view, too.
I really don't understand why the word "socialist" is considered anathematic, when a country has police forces, firefighters, public libraries, public schools, courts of law, public hospitals, armed forces, publicly used infrastructure such as roads, bridges, sewage systems, parks, etc. not to mention central and state governance that are all shared among all people.
The word 'socialist' has many very different meanings. What you just described as 'socialist' varies considerably from what others think the word means. For example, many think 'socialist' means single-party authoritarian state rule with a command economy. Others think it means social democracy as is common in Europe (especially the Nordic nations). Some think it means a pure egalitarian society where everyone is made equal by the government.
None of the above correlates with the original or contemporary theoretical treatment of the subject matter.
Then if the members here use the word meaning the more extreme interpretations (i;e. meaning single-party state rule such as in China) to accuse the Democrats of being or desiring such, then due to that vicious stupidity they are fair game to be themselves called Nazis. Of course, because Canadians enjoy the benefit of single-payer universal healthcare where nobody goes bankrupt because of failing health, they still call Canadians socialists.
Don't get me started on people playing fast and loose with the meaning of socialism to engage in partisan nonsense.
Have you come around to believing in anthropogenic warming yet?
The evidence is in and science deniers are in the minority.
What are their ( the die hard Trump supporters ) grievances and their 'outrage' is because of what or whom?
A say?!?!?!?!?! They want more than that... they want the first say, the last say, and everything in between. Compromise is a dirty word for them.
When those few in the GOP that are willing to compromise, as with the Omnibus/stimulus bill, they get their noses rubbed in it AND their legs cut out from under them.
Engaging With Trump's Die-Hard Supporters Isn't Productive
For Them, the way i see the scales tilted on an Axis, and Ye shall receivith, cause i don't care any more or less than when i did, and please, Trumpettes, blow easily on moi', cause ii'm a tad blah blah blah too day woo ewe a weigh u never understood b 4, so, not understand sum more and be like Trump gettin Peee'd upon by a Pro stituting their own horns, as just leaves me a loan and blow a way that pleases like Branch Dravidian Kool Aiding and abetting the crimes of passion Fruits, cause iiii's don't give a hoots two day, n e ole way, so say watt ya need to say, N i'll possibly retort tuss, but s l o w e r
Never approach an elephant from the front, a horse from the rear, and fools (Magats) from any direction.
Axis?
Pun intended?
what pun...and always
So what would be...a productive alternative?
When people adopt a figure as an idol there isn't anything to do, arguing about it changes nothing. So many Republican voters have just gone along and checked the "R" box on whatever is put before them. Then they go into "protection mode" as they view their chosen one as a "daddy" figure and will hear nothing against their chosen idol. They did it with Bush and made excuses for every bad move, every harmful policy and they did it again with Trump. But in order to continue down the path of adopting whatever Republican is put before them, they have to stick with it to save face. Never, ever, ever looking at the actual horrible policies that destroy their lives as long as they can blame a Democrat. They are a lost cause and until they see they have done this idol worship in service to the Republican party that has failed them time and time and time again, there is nothing you can tell them or argue. This is something they will either face on their own, and some will never face it. They will continue down the path of least resistance and never think outside their mindset of Republican idol worship. They don't see the faults of an idol.
Oh I think they do and mores the pity.
Perhaps it could be excused if they were actually ignorant of 'their idols' faults but as has been illustrated here far too often, they SEE those faults but do not care. Their attitude is 'So what? He is doing what we want.' They have no empathy for those who aren't enthralled and no concern for the damage being done to the country.
As has been pointed out ad nauseam, they embrace acts by 'their idol' that they would not tolerate in any other person in their lives. These are acts that are preached against in their places of worship, acts that they immediately seek to correct and discipline in their children and not that long ago would have been considered verboten in 'mixed company'.
Idolizing such a person, heralding him as a guiding light, is indefensible.
Idols generally have feet of clay.
Unfortunately, in this case, 'their idol' isn't even grounded on this planet.
Idol Trump has feet of shit.
It would be interesting to know how many hours/day the average user of social media spends doing just that (arguing about politics).
Of course there are many Republicans (granted, they are a minority of the party) who have the intelligence...and common sense...to oppose other Republicans' march toward Fascism.
For example, The Lincoln Project. Here is an example of the type of actual ads they made:
Fellow Traveler
American soldiers’ lives are in danger and Trump has done nothing to stop it. Add ‘America First’ to the laundry list of scams Trump has sold in his life. It’s clearly Trump first, Russia second, and America last.
I completely agree with what you have said, freepress. I have one of these intransigent Trump lovers in my family. At first I thought we could agree to just explain our beliefs to each other, and then agree to disagree. But I couldn't do it... after trying this approach for a while, I felt I couldn't contain my incredulity. I felt it best to say we should just avoid this topic. It is a creepy disingenuous way to operate, but I don't see anything good that can come from this sort of interaction.
Engaging With Trump's Die-Hard Supporters Isn't Productive
And yet, so many people on Social media sites spend hours every day doing that!
Kinda make you wonder....
Kinda make you wonder...
Social media fell into the black hole of acrimonious I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I BS long before Trump.
It seems very clear that some people, actually a great many people, are attracted to social media because they get some sort of relief or pleasure from spewing bile... with the anonymity social media provides.
The phrase “drink the kool aid” used to just be an expression to describe sycophantic servility. Now it’s something I’m literally wishing for.
If Trump produced a kool aid flavored drink (ala Jonestown) , let's call it Orange Dunce, and told people that if they drank it he would be president for four more years, undoubtedly he could get many people to drink it, even if they later learned to their misfortune that it was laced with poison.
I've seen enough videos of Trump true believers over the past 6 years or so to convince me there are some people who would do anything he tells them to do.
Agreed ... and fingers crossed.
Magat - "Do I drink it before or after my bleach injection?"
There is not enough cheese in WI to go with all of Trump's whines.
Once people have made their mind up on something it is almost impossible to change it. An example is all the people (especially college students) who want the US to be socialist. You can show them facts and figures all day long how socialism has never worked but they won't change their mind, even though they really can't support their position or even understand it. Another example is people that say they are for freedom of speech as they yell at other people and try to sensor things they say because it does not agree with their position. Does that mean we should stop trying? No, they are still Americans and deserve respect. All I can say is don't get caught up in their drama, just plant seeds, don't think you are going to change their minds in one conversation. Mention that taxes in socialist countries can very easily be 50% and ask them if they would like 50% of their earnings to go to others......just plant the seed. Ask diehard Donald supporters exactly what he has done for them specifically, you may be surprised by their answer. The bottom like is don't give up on others or try to yell them down, that won't accomplish anything.
You mean like this guy, except for the part where he did not tell them they would probably die...
That is absolutely brilliant, jbb!!! I am gonna have to borrow that... Thanks!!!!
In Europe after May 1945 I often wondered what all of those die hard Nazis did and what happened to them. Oh, I've read several accounts their finally freed neighbors and friends beat them up, turned them in the War Crimes Commission, shot them or hanged them.
MAGA? It is a social disease.
I think that if any other nation had the desire to "divide and conquer" America, Americans themselves have already accomplished the first part for them.
I agree, nothing sinks in. No level of reality seems to permeate the barrier of sycophancy. Their continued trust in Trump, at this stage, makes me wonder how they function in life given they seem to possess no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
I suspect that most of the 74+ million who voted for Trump have wised up given his current behavior. At least that is my hope.
Though they may have indeed 'wised up', most of them seem quite comfortable with the havoc perpetrated by Trump in the last month. Knowing about and understanding the terrible, awful crap that Trump is doing and has done hasn't seemed to effect their support for him or their sycophantic defense of everything that he does.
At this point, their support can only be based on their perception that they're getting what they want and damn the country or their fellow citizens who are hurting.
Almost as if ignorance, was the rule, and does, over so many who willfully, or not, REFUSE, to see and accept, the seriousness of their blind and futile following, of what can only be describes as, a frkn cult leader, leading US A LL down
Well from my sampling in real life (obviously not statistically sound) the conservatives I know all recognize that Trump's behavior is atrocious and that he clearly lost the election. They like his policies but dislike him.
Same here, for the most part... There are a few though who still insist on overlooking the bad and hang on every word the guy says. Baffles my mind.
I did meet one person a few weeks back (merely an acquaintance) who is indeed in full Trump mode. He does believe Biden stole the election. We did not get along very well.
How do they separate the 2?
Trump's denial of his loss is a 'policy' of destruction. His narcissism is a 'policy' of fealty to him over country. His compulsive lies is a 'policy' of cognitive dissonance.
Simple, they give him credit for the economy (prior to COVID-19). They like his immigration policy. They support his claims to not having the USA engage in bad international deals.
They overlook his many flaws because of the perception that he (and, for some, he alone) is the reason our economy was doing well. That is not rational, but giving the credit (and blame) to the sitting PotUS for the economy is nothing new.
I have also heard some claim they like him because he is not a career politician, he challenges and scares the entrenched system, and they fully buy in to his "drain the swamp" and "deep state" rhetoric. There may be a little anecdotal truth buried in some of that crap, but for the most part I think he just made the swamp deeper and even smellier than it was before.
I just have to wonder how long someone has to be in office before they are no longer considered 'not' a career politician.
Imo he could serve another four years and the same people would still say he is an outsider, even though he would have been in the middle of everything for eight years.
I think it is a stupid and lame excuse just used to excuse his behavior.
The rest of your post I have to completely agree with,
Yes, not a career politician is a big one I should have mentioned.
The nation seems considerably more divisive. And from what I can tell, millions of partisan Republicans lost some brain cells along the way. At the very least, Trump has seriously tarnished the R party and R voters.
I heard a lot of people cite that as one of their main reasons for voting for Trump in 2016.
I still don't buy it. These same people that claim to want an 'outsider' will still reelect the same congress people year after year.
I think they just enjoy the chaos he brings.
People vote mostly out of name recognition. It is pathetic and lazy but that sure seems to be what happens.
But, at the same time, people seem to dislike the politicians in power.
I can only go by what people have told me, and the outsider factor was important to them in 2016. They also thought Trump's candor was a good thing.
I don't think it is the chaos they like, as is evidenced by their calls for law and order during the riots and "mostly peaceful protests". I think they just like to see "liberal" heads explode every time he opens his mouth. Honestly, I really think that the childish reactions of some of the lifelong politicians (like Pelosi tearing up the SOTU address behind Trump), and the over the top hateful reactions to Trump (and other conservatives) by many on the left is what fuels some of the Trump hardliners. Certainly Trump's childishness is something that fires up those who hate him. Both sides seem to revel in the hysterical sky is falling reactions of the other. Such is the nature of ultra partisan politics.
I think non partisans suck. Too wishy washy. Ya gotta believe.
Do you think your politics are anchored in some sort of ill founded superiority attitude or does it come out that way by accident?
If you are 'believing' then you are not thinking critically. Letting a party define right and wrong for you is not admirable.
Better to be non-partisan (an independent, critical thinker) who considers each issue and is not afraid to draw a conclusion that goes against the views of a particular party.
Slow news day JR? Just looking to pick a fight?
I'm tired of some people saying how horrible "partisanship" is. This is a country of two political parties if you haven't noticed. Rarely in the 240 year history of this country have there been three functional parties at the same time, there have been a few occasions when a third supplanted the other two, but it's pretty much always been two at a time. That is a partisan layout. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with being partisan, all you have to be is fair.
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that folks who say things like that may be confusing being rational and reasonable with being wishy-washy.
Certainly one aspect or trait of the hyper-partisan is an unwillingness to even consider the view point of another. A completely unreasonable allegiance to a party or a politician with absolutely no desire to even try and see things from another point of view. An irrational hatred for those who see things differently, so potent that even in the face of the facts and the truth the partisan will continue to perpetuate lies and dishonesty about everything the opposing party or politician says or does. The situation with the confirmation of ACB is a good recent example, as is the blind allegiance to Trump despite his many failings.
What I gotta believe in is my ability to distill an issue down to its root facts and weigh it dispassionately without bias or prejudice (not always perfect but one can try). When one focuses their lens only through a strict party platform or ideology, one often narrows their view so much as to obscure the truth and even reality. Now THAT sucks.
Depends on how you define partisanship. There is nothing wrong with seeking to give a particular party the majority in a congressional body or the presidency. For example, the strategy of using partisan conflicts as a check given that our constitutional checks & balances have been largely mitigated over the years by the party leadership structure.
Partisanship, however, generally refers to following the party line. Carrying the water for a political party is not admirable. Holding a viewpoint simply because one's party holds that view simply gives political parties power over the electorate. This is not healthy.
You do realize that belonging to and supporting a political party does not in itself make one a partisan. One can be an R or a D (or another) and still engage in critical thinking. That is there are Rs and Ds who do not simply accept as truth whatever their party deems as such. They make up their own minds and will at times disagree with their party and agree with the other.
These individuals are independents. There are D independents, R independents, L independents, ..., and non-affiliated independents.
Also: Thinking critically and making educated choices is not 'wishy-washy'. Being indecisive or thinking that compromise is always the best choice is wishy-washy; that is not what an independent would do.
Good for you. I wonder if anyone has ever thought of that approach before.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think Nancy Pelosi believes she does critical thinking? Or even AOC. Do you think AOC accepts whatever her party tells her?
Who are these people you seem to think are everywhere who believe whatever a politician tells them if they are the proper "party" ?
Trump supporters do (some, many of them) because they are in a cult. But most Democrats that I know of don't believe whatever the party tells the.
Their "partisanship" comes from their support for an ideology. Unlike the Republican Party this year, the Democrats always have a political platform. The Republicans didnt have a platform in 2020 because their platform was whatever Donald Trump wanted. And that is not a joke it is exactly what happened.
This is the preamble to the Democratic Party platform for 2020. I agree with it in general and in many specifics, so I guess that makes me a partisan. So what?
And every day we see ultra-partisans being fair right John? An examination of merely headlines of the seeds on this site, not to mention the irrational and insulting banter between participants, proves that being fair to each other isn't in the cards.
Being fair would mean, for example, accepting the fact that the Senate Republicans followed the 200 year old historical precedent as it pertains to confirmation of SC justices in an election year depending on whether the party of the POTUS and the Senate were the same or not in both 2016 and 2020. Yet we still have folks here who refuse to accept those facts, and even went so far as to insist that Biden should "pack the court" in retaliation. Fair? Yeah I don't think so.
And when facts are presented from time to time that indicate that unsubstantiated allegations about Trump are false, have those facts been examined fairly in your mind each time?
You in particular my friend have made it your mission here to interject anti-Trump rhetoric into discussions here even where it hasn't been warranted. You think that is fair?
Not to pick on you alone John, there are certainly other ultra-partisans here who are not "fair" in their dealing with you and others here as well. But you are the one saying that those of us who strive to be non-partisan suck, so I suppose you've focused the spotlight on yourself, kinda like Trump does.... (-:
LOL! Coming from the guy who says, "I think non-partisans suck". Classic...
I thought that was rather obvious sarcasm. Maybe I need to recalibtrate.
I don't know how to break this to you, but Donald Trump has never, for one second, been qualified or fit to be president of the United States. Not one second.
Therefore he does not need to be, nor should he be treated with the usual decorum and gravitas of the presidency. Maybe you think that in the name of good manners, or "critical thinking", people should let the bizarre Trump cult be given equal standing in the world of political discourse. It goes without saying I dont see it that way.
If you are interested in how much we should all be "fair" to Trump and his plague of trumpism I would suggest you are then making yourself more a part of the problem than the solution.
First of all, Pelosi is part of the leadership so she is not the best example. But I suspect if asked, anyone would claim that they think critically. Nobody wants to admit that they simply follow the leader.
That is not what I have claimed. It is not believing whatever a politician tells them but rather following the party line. Most of the politicians are simply following the party line. You know I cannot name people but if you focus simply on Rs (because you will likely not see any Ds in this light) can you not identify those whose opinions parrot the party line?
The most obvious example right now is anyone who believes Biden stole the election. Who could come to such a position if not relegating their critical thinking to their party? Now consider the pandemic restrictions. The R position generally (simplified for example) is that the precautions have been excessive while the D position (simplified) is that the precautions have been insufficient. We are not likely to find many Rs calling for stronger precautions and enforcement or many Ds calling for backing off on precautions with an argument that 'science' does not know what 'it' it talking about. You can go down the line yourself and see myriad examples such as immigration, AGW, renewable energy, environment, abortion, etc. Individuals who simply adopt the party position on these various issues is a partisan. Those who will break from the party position (to a significant, non-trivial degree) would be independents who affiliate with a political party.
I am sure our NT Rs would say the same thing.
That, in itself, does not make you a partisan. If you think through the issues and happen to come to the same conclusion as the platform that is not partisan-thinking. Contrast this now with those who adopt the party platform yet have not thought through the issues and cannot provide a sensible argument for why they hold the positions they hold. That, JR, is a partisan.
"I believe this to be true because I am a D (or R)" ← partisanship
The truth or correctness of a position you hold should not have anything to do with your own party membership.
You should recognize that one cannot presume that such a statement coming from you is necessarily sarcasm. I am not surprised you meant to be sarcastic, but you really could have been serious based on your comment history.
Aren't you the one who demands evidence?
There is no evidence that the people who voted for trump have "wised up". A few of them may have "given up". Trumpism will go on for the foreseeable future, near as strong as it has been, just maybe a little less on the covers of Time magazine and on the front page of the major dailies. .
Yes. That is why I used the language I did. Note the word 'suspect'.
Again, go back to my use of language. I actually do have evidence supporting my suspicion, but it is merely anecdotal. I have a statistically poor sample (real people I know). Because my sample is not statistically sound I am not claiming this to be the general case. But I suspect it is.